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SE's answers to our questions |
makbil
Joined: Oct 26, 2006
Posts: > 500
From: Istanbul
PM |
This is what I meant as payback for SE's treatment of the P990 case:
http://www.sonyericsson.com/c[....]inancialsannouncement-20080319
It seems people may be taking notice of what is being said about their products.
P990i: A mistake, a curse and a disgrace  So I lowered my expectations and settled for a P1i. I couldn't keep my expectations so low for a long time so now I have an HTC Touch HD | |
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soane28
Joined: Jun 12, 2006
Posts: 401
From: NZ
PM |
still going on about this?
I think its quite clear. Simply move to nokia. Or choose another brand. Case closed.
[ This Message was edited by: soane28 on 2008-03-19 11:01 ] |
goldenface
Joined: Dec 17, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Liverpool City Centre
PM |
All handset OEMs are likely to take a hit this year - not just SE......
Handset outlook
".....As a result, he has sliced nearly 7 percent off his estimate for Nokia's first-quarter revenues and lowered his annual revenue target to US$85.2 billion, down from an earlier forecast of US$88.2 billion, though that's still up 7.5 percent from 2007 in constant dollars. Windsor also has lowered his revenue estimates for struggling Motorola and Swedish-Japanese joint venture Sony Ericsson. "All players are likely to take a hit as a result of a lower overall market that has suddenly become unusually soft at the high end," Windsor said in a research note."
source
Not because a small percentage of smartphone users (the P990i holds a very small smartphone market share) had problems with their P990i I'm afraid.
The P990i debacle is woeful but to claim this is the reason the SE might take a hit this year, when other manufacturers look likely to do the same, sounds to me like wishful thinking.
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Dogmann
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: > 500
From: London England
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Hi Makbil
I would imagine myself and few others are less surprised at this then some, but IMO the absence of HSDPA in any SE smart phone still. Plus only the Xperia announced so far that has it is not going down well with those that need or want a top spec smart phone add to that the lack of real answers from SE and no apparent change in attitude from SE and it's hardly surprising IMO.
@Goldenface
I think the above mentioned factors also has a lot to do with it and whilst it may not be down to just the unhappy P990 users. How they were treated is no secret and people are also unhappy with far more than just there smart phones. The K850 had a much worse reception then previous K series devcies and disappionted many with it's release and problems and how long the took to start being fixed. Now if this is market wide downturn or not we will just have to wait and see what the other manufacturers report to know.
@soane28
If you don't like what many of us say don't read it and if your happy with SE's offerings and how they treat you good for you. But obviously many of us still don't feel the same way and from the above statement it appears to be affecting their bottom line now so maybe this will make them wake up and change although some how i doubt it.
Marc
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Nokia E90,8GB SDHC, Fring, Tom Tom 6
Dogmanns Nokia E90 Blog @ http://dogmann.vox.com/
Honoured to have won BEST DEBATER
[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2008-03-21 14:46 ] |
makbil
Joined: Oct 26, 2006
Posts: > 500
From: Istanbul
PM |
@soane28, in law there is a concept called "punitive damages", that is what I'm applying to SE at the moment. I am still using my P990, I've learned to live with it but it is very unlikely that my next device will be from SE.
Just moving on to some other device will mean I have to swallow an enormous sum of money SE stole from me - "stole" is the right word here since the specs published do not match the actual features. So my choice is to keep using the P990 and at the same time try to hurt SE's image as much as I can as payback.
P990i: A mistake, a curse and a disgrace So I lowered my expectations and settled for a P1i. I couldn't keep my expectations so low for a long time so now I have an HTC Touch HD |
max_wedge
Joined: Aug 29, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Australia
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On 2008-03-19 15:11:31, makbil wrote:
Just moving on to some other device will mean I have to swallow an enormous sum of money SE stole from me - "stole" is the right word here since the specs published do not match the actual features. So my choice is to keep using the P990 and at the same time try to hurt SE's image as much as I can as payback.
such as vengeful attitude doesn't make me think you are very rational about all this. If you are truly interested in SE improving beyond their problems, then how does this sort of attitude help anything??
Why didn't you just take the phone back, demand your money back and do what dogmann has done - look to another OEM for a handset?
I'm not arguing your right to feel pissed off, but to want to get your own back is a little childish imo?? I mean no disrespect at all, it's just how I react to what you just said above. tbh I don't usually think that way about you, I think of you as one of the more sensible members, but that comment just seem very shortsighted?
@dogmann, as ever you accuse me of fanboyism when I have never once claimed SE are not wrong for what they did.
I also never mentioned N70 as a direct comparison to P990 as you inferred, I only meant it as an example of Nokia dropping a product when they have new handsets out they want to concentrate on.
Anyway I do agree the "your phone has restarted to improve performance" message is a very poorly thought out marketing excercise. No argument. But I'm just saying the N95 message to the average end user is also a little offensive. (especially when no applications are running and it says "please close applications".
As far as being easy to update - not everyone uses their phone in conjunction with the pc. Especially when you can just plug the device in and get a mass storage drive - this is more often than not the furthest most average consumers will go as far as connecting their phone to the pc. Most average consumers never even put the cd in their computer. I know this because it's my business to go into home and small businesses setting up or fixing computers. Most of the users I come across with fancy multimedia phones NEVER even realise they can update firmware, or even that they can synch with outlook. Honestly the level of knowledge out there in the average consumer's mind is very low.
You tend to forget this because you yourself are one of the knowledgeable ones. Honestly it'd make a good comedy skit how often I come across people who use about .1% of the capacity of their mobile phone. For these people, if their phone tells them they have not enough memory available, please close some applications, when all they are doing is opening the browser, as far as they are concerned that's how the phone is and they just learn not to bother using the web browser. AND tell all their friends N95 is useless for browsing the web. Of course they are wrong, but the end result is the same.
So I seriously doubt that the P990 problems caused to the end user are much worse than those that the memory problems caused the N95, in the eyes of the average end user. I agree with makbil that the customer service response by SE was very poor. This is something they can definitely learn from Nokia.
You accuse me of being SE fan, but please try and look past this and see that I do actually base everything I say on logic. I'm not saying I'm always right, but please don't persist in accusing me of being a fanboy just because you don't agree with my views. We can all read the facts in our own way, that doesn't make us fanboys.
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makbil
Joined: Oct 26, 2006
Posts: > 500
From: Istanbul
PM |
@max_wedge, I agree that I'm a bit emotional when it comes to the P990 issue. I am considering the N95 8GB but the lack of a touch screen is putting me off. Despite its obvious flaws, I still consider the P990 one of the best PDA concepts available and I'm really angry with SE for not making it what it could be. Everyone just giving up and "moving on" is exactly what SE wants, they will just pocket the money with no consequences to their actions.
P990i: A mistake, a curse and a disgrace So I lowered my expectations and settled for a P1i. I couldn't keep my expectations so low for a long time so now I have an HTC Touch HD |
max_wedge
Joined: Aug 29, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Australia
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I do understand your frustration, but I don't know what options SE have now? I mean it's too late now to do anything about it. My guess is the reason they never fixed it was because it was just too hard. It may come down to hardware issues that can't be fixed with firmware. It's one thing to replace a whole batch of batteries (aka Nokia, who btw only replace them if you know to ask them for one - it's not a recall but a voluntary program), quite another to remake a whole phone from the ground up then give it away for free.
I do agree that SE didn't handle the situation very well, but I think ultimately they P990 is a lost cause (fixing the remaining memory problems)
The most I would expect SE to do is give back the money for anyone who remained unhappy with the P990.
The only way you can make them stand up and take notice is if you (and other in the same situation) go to the opposition. That's how to punish them. Then when they get a new phone right, come back, then you are rewarding them for doing the right thing. That's positive reinforcement (just like training a dog). Beating a dog after it has done the wrong thing never works in the long run. All you get is a nervous dog that can't do anything right and attacks anything weaker than itself and cowers from anything stronger.
If however you ignore the dog (ie: go to the opposition), then the dog craves your attention and will do anything to get it!
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makbil
Joined: Oct 26, 2006
Posts: > 500
From: Istanbul
PM |
Hmmm, but scolding a dog always works, the voice tone tells them that you do not approve, equally, a soft and kind voice tells them that they have pleased you 
I do agree with what you are saying and that is the way to act but I also need to satisfy my anger
It wasn't so much about what could or couldn't be done about the P990, it is SE's attitude. The gradual improvement in P990 fw has shown that it is possible to improve it but SE chose not to dedicate any resources and abandoned it (and its users) within a year. So it's not really about the P990, it's about SE.
[ This Message was edited by: makbil on 2008-03-20 14:31 ] |
Dogmann
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: > 500
From: London England
PM |
@Max
You really can't be serious that the N95 problems caused to the end user where no worse than those caused to the P990 user. As at least with the N95 they were resolved with new firmware and if you are suggesting that very few people new how to update and fix it that is not Nokia's fault and a simple visit to a service centre would result in a free flashing of the devcie no purchase receipt required. But yet again who cares we are discussing SE's actions or more accurately lack of not Nokia's or Motorola's or any others just what SE did and do is relevant.
Now compare that with all the P990 users that did know how to update causing them each time to have to re set up and re load everything to thier devcie and still with out fixing a lot of the problems for the best part of a Year. Now if these users didn't update they were really in bad way and if they couldn't flash it themselves unless they had a purchase receipt an SE Service Centre wouldn't touch their devcie either.
You are correct though i took the right action early and left SE saving myself from going through months of agony waiting for the next firmware that was going to fix it all in the belief that SE would be able to fix it and continue to improve it. Even in my wildest dreams i didn't see SE just abandoning it and saying tough to it's users, and the simple answer is as i have always said SE had no right to even release these devcies in the state they intially launched and yes this was both unethical and dishonest as they were not fit for purpose and failed to even come close to delivering what they promised. As proven by the fact that SE went back and removed all the things it failed to deliver from the White paper. Unfortunately for them many have copies of the original White paper that shows exactly how dishonest SE are and shows actions they will stoop to.
It may of escaped your notice that whilst some have continued on with SE and UIQ more people have now moved to WM or even S60 then anyone could of imagined. The P1 was only taken up but one Network in the UK unlike the P990, M600 and W950 and that really can't be good for SE/UIQ or it's users.
The sad fact is currently SE/UIQ have no high end smart phone devcies to compete with WM or S60 and the G series are not them either they are targeted at the middle to lower end of the market as again still in mid 2008 won't have HSDPA. Whilst some of SE's non smart phones are alreday getting this tech just how that makes sense is beyond me.
There are yet again rumours that new UIIQ devcies are going to be announced in May and that these devcies will be true high end devcies but seeing as this is now over a year since the P1 launched it is well overdue.
If SE/UIQ still has enough users left that will risk a new devcie from SE after the way they have treated them is any ones guess as to if users will come back from another platform that is even harder to achieve IMO. But it will be interesting to see how well these devcies do and if they manage to release them in a better state as currently even the recently released W960 still carries with it bugs from previous devcies as crazy and unbelievable as that is.
Marc
_________________
Nokia E90,8GB SDHC, Fring, Tom Tom 6
Dogmanns Nokia E90 Blog @ http://dogmann.vox.com/
Honoured to have won BEST DEBATER
[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2008-03-20 14:49 ] |
mib1800
Joined: Mar 18, 2004
Posts: > 500
PM |
@max_wedge
So I seriously doubt that the P990 problems caused to the end user are much worse than those that the memory problems caused the N95, in the eyes of the average end user.
Seriously given the success of N95, I seriously doubt your statement holds any water.
You accuse me of being SE fan, but please try and look past this and see that I do actually base everything I say on logic.
Looks like you are not basing the above on logic. 
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max_wedge
Joined: Aug 29, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Australia
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Nokia have a much larger marketshare, SE UIQ marketshare is miniscule so of course the effect is 100 times more obvious.
Anyway I will concede that P990 problems were quite bad But N95 has it's problems too and no one is ranting about how "evil" Nokia are. If one had worse problems than the other so what? If one company tried to stick head in sand, so what? they are all the same in the end!! One day Nokia will pull a real dirty, will you remember this day then?
MS Windows Millenium was an abomination and an insult to all Windows Users. Then Windows Pro came along and all was forgiven. And rightly so, because with Windows Pro, MS got it right for a change.
I like Windows. I like SE interface and SE design. So I defend SE. Not out of fanboyism, but because I eagerly await the day they get it right. Have I bought P990? No. Have I bought any recent UIQ? No. So I am not a blind fanboy rewarding SE for doing the wrong thing (I know about the pavlov's dog theory lol). For now, despite my liking of SE products, I use WM for my smartphone platforms. (Not Nokia, for two reasons - user interface which I don't enjoy, and lack of touchscreen.) My reasons for buying a phone are first and foremost about my enjoyment of the phone, and never about the brand.
When G series are released, if and/or when they become bug free, I will buy one and reward SE for finally getting it right!!  And I will buy it for the UI, and for the Touchscreen, and for the formfactor (which is unique or now). Certainly the brandname has nothing to do with the choice and is incidental.
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Nipsen
Joined: Jul 31, 2007
Posts: > 500
From: Noway
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On 2008-03-04 01:41:12, makbil wrote:
OK, I'm not disputing that. But you have to agree that at least Nokia made the effort to correct the problem whereas SE decided to ignore the problem.
I think we had that discussion before, no? Nokia knew it might be beneficial to go to symbian 9.3 or 9.5 on /some/ of their units - so they created a build for that, with little or no changes to the firmware, but with more memory handling routines. If SE did the same thing for the p990, it wouldn't have that effect, because of the way UIQ is constructed. So they would have to restructure the entire firmware for that one device if they were going to do something about the ram issue.
And while I think they should aknowledge that, and say straight up that they won't do it, since it's beyond their capability.. to even fix the core functionality of the phone within a year of release - it won't work to accuse them of not going the extra mile like nokia. Because the fix you're talking about would probably be a big project, with extremely little return (since it would be for that device only, and not possible to carry over to other UIQ units. Neither would it be very likely to actually free up very much ram in the end).
Of course - is that bad planning? Is it typical crap from the manufacturers? Is it unbelievable they get away with it? And should they change their company policy on how firmware- upgrades are developed, and shift a few priorities? Include certain basic concerns when they do the initial planning? Does the p990, the m600 and the p1 and so on show that? Is it a mistake to continue with the business/walkman split on the firmwares? Is it a serious problem to only set aside time for developing shells on top of the system, and screwing the customers once again? Yes, obviously.
But the bottom line is just that unless we come up with good criticism (however difficult that might be when we get the childish answers we do, if they're not playing the stay silent game), we could just as well be quiet.
And I don't say that because I believe SE will deign to listen if we only come up with something they can use at SE - but because there is absolutely no reason for either /future customers/ or the SE smartphone division to think twice about the problems in general, unless we can demonstrate real issues with the phones that affect their usefulness and appeal.
Similarly, if we can do that - demonstrate real issues with the phone - then if nothing else, we might at least help others make a better purchase. By exposing the details that you won't discover until you've been using the unit yourself for a few weeks, and so on.
@max_wedge: yes, exactly - demand you money back. |
hanugro
Joined: Feb 28, 2005
Posts: > 500
PM |
I just can't help to voice 1 point.
If I am not mistaken many of you don't ever shutdown your phone?? It is interesting as you know electronics need a restart once in a while. No matter what brand you have it is better to restart your device. Better yet do it like I do. Take the batt out once a month for the phone to restart completely.
I use K800 for almost a year and it only crash on me once (when I do something with XS++ that I don't remember now). I always shutdown my phone at least once/twice weekly.
Anyway, I almost get that P990 when the price dips to US$350 last year. But my brain alert me that there is something fishy about this price drop. Never before a SE smartphone cost so low within a year+ from launch. |
makbil
Joined: Oct 26, 2006
Posts: > 500
From: Istanbul
PM |
@Nipsen, it's obvious that one has to agree with what you are saying to a great extent. However, there are other issues as well that shouldn't be overlooked. The P990 still does not conform to published specifications in its white paper. That fact alone should be grounds for SE to either make those features available or recall the P990 with full refund.
P990i: A mistake, a curse and a disgrace So I lowered my expectations and settled for a P1i. I couldn't keep my expectations so low for a long time so now I have an HTC Touch HD | |
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Posted: 2008-03-19 11:43
So I lowered my expectations and settled for a P1i. I couldn't keep my expectations so low for a long time so now I have an HTC Touch HD 
