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max_wedge
Joined: Aug 29, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Australia
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On 2008-03-17 10:40:26, makbil wrote:
Apparently not all companies are quite the same, Nokia has released a major fw update which introduced demand paging to handle the memory problem of the N95. I wonder why they didn't just say "Go get N95 8GB, we fixed the RAM issue there" - after all this is exactly what SE did as they suggested those who complain should go get the P1 and shut up!
I agree the P990 debacle was an extreme case. Nokia haven't had anything as bad recently.
They fixed the memory problems with the N95, though there was never a call back, and many N95 owners out there suffer daily "there is not enough memory to run this program, please close some applications" errors, when nothing else is running, and don't even know they can update the software to fix it.
that affects Nokia's perception in the mind of normal phone users (not those like us who are more tech orientated and know about updates). This may not be a direct example of poor customer service, but it still amounts to the same thing.
Atleast the P990 offered a solution, albeit a poorly implemented one. They made the phone shutdown with the message about restarting to "optimise" memory (or whatever it says). They perhaps should have made a suggestion to restart rather than a forced restart.
In the N95 memory error, the end user is not informed that a restart will clear the memory leak. Other than phone fanatics like ourselves, most normal phone users I know don't realise that restarting the phone can often help when the phone isn't playing ball.
A further thing to remember with regard to P990/N95 memory problems: the P990 was released over a year before N95. So IMO it's not as bad as you say that SE chose not to fix the memory problems and focused on P1 instead. Nokia might have done the same thing if the situation was reversed, and infact, the N70 to this day still has memory problems and Nokia stopped releasing new firmware less than 2 years after it was introduced. They gave up on the poor old N70  The woman I bought my N70 off was utterly disenfranchised with Nokia because of it and infact she practically gave me the N70 for the cost of me fixing the screen on her K610  To her she had nothing but praise for SE because the phone didn't lock up or need restarting all the time, and nothing but scorn for the N70 and Nokia. It's like a bizarre reversal of the N95/P990 story
So there are always examples on both sides ofthe fence. 
I do relate to your frustration though, bad customer service is highly frustrating.
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mib1800
Joined: Mar 18, 2004
Posts: > 500
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@max_wedge:
the N70 to this day still has memory problems and Nokia stopped releasing new firmware less than 2 years after it was introduced. They gave up on the poor old N70
Are you sure you are talking about N70 or you got confused with something else.  N70 has something like 35-40Mb free RAM on boot which is more than double that of P990. I dont remember having "memory problem" with N70. Maybe you got a dude N70 (that is why the lady you bought it from is happy to get rid it - you got scr*wed )
btw: Are you really sure N95 was not release 1 year after p990.
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iksplusipsilon
Joined: Dec 23, 2007
Posts: 303
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@max
Of course I am expecting support. Regardless of the customer base size, it is (was) still their "flagship" and if they don't take care of that customers, what could low-end device byers expect ? I agree that SE is not that different from almost any other company, but that doesn' meen that we should just accept that kind of behavior silently. It maybe is naive thinking, but the perception about SE is changing, and more people that never looked at something non-SE, are now looking for alternatives (me included) and ultimately that is going to affect their profits in one way or another...the thing is, that many people who complain about P990 and M600 would not feel cheated, if only there wasn't blatant disregard for the truth and our intelligence on that matter. My problem with SE ( and SONY,SONY/UNIVERSAL ... while we are at it :) ) is related solely with their behaviour with customers in general and I JUST WON' SHUT UP ABOUT IT ! :)
Yes, maybe this is just an SE bashing, but it is well deserved SE bashing ...
This message was posted from a E65-1 |
djin
Joined: Jun 13, 2007
Posts: > 500
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i dnt read the whole posts but seriously, n70 was not at all bad. wen it was released it was great though nothing new, not even the interface could be said new. But the phone was good. n no such problems experienced. |
makbil
Joined: Oct 26, 2006
Posts: > 500
From: Istanbul
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On 2008-03-17 13:27:33, max_wedge wrote:
Atleast the P990 offered a solution, albeit a poorly implemented one. They made the phone shutdown with the message about restarting to "optimise" memory (or whatever it says). They perhaps should have made a suggestion to restart rather than a forced restart.
This was hardly a solution to anything. Until R5, I had several restarts while in the process of receiving a call, sometimes there wasn't even a log entry to show who had called - let's remember that this was supposed to be a business phone, translated calls=money. Anyone with the lowest level of intelligence would have made sure that the phone functions would work first and foremost, after all making and receiving calls are the primary functions of this device and it took 3 fw updates to get that right!
Really the P990 case should be made study material for business classes as it contains everything that can be done to make things worse...
P990i: A mistake, a curse and a disgrace  So I lowered my expectations and settled for a P1i. I couldn't keep my expectations so low for a long time so now I have an HTC Touch HD |
max_wedge
Joined: Aug 29, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Australia
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I wasn't proposing that it was an effective solution. I was just comparing it to the N95 which didn't really have a solution either, although I agree they eventually fixed it at least (but only for end users sophisticated enough to update the phone firmware).
As to the P990 unexpected phone restarts, as you said they did eventually fix that with a firmware update. Just like Nokia *eventually* fixed the memory problems. Both phones shipped with major problems.
@mib, according to gsmarena, P990 was released atleast a year before N95. Regarding the N70, I only bought it (for the cost of a new K610 lcd - $60) to have a closer look at symbian s60, I never relied upon it as a daily phone so I wasn't "burned". I had already spoken to her and knew she was having problems with the phone so I was aware of what I was getting into. I have seen quite a few other references to crashing problems with the N70 so my handset is not the only one with that problem.
Guys, I'm not arguing with your right to bitch about SE, just please don't think becoming a Nokia fanboy is any better
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iksplusipsilon
Joined: Dec 23, 2007
Posts: 303
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...uhmm...nokio is fugly... : )
( this was not posted from E65-1 ! ... no,really )
This message was posted from a E65-1 |
makbil
Joined: Oct 26, 2006
Posts: > 500
From: Istanbul
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On 2008-03-18 00:02:23, max_wedge wrote:
Guys, I'm not arguing with your right to bitch about SE, just please don't think becoming a Nokia fanboy is any better
I'm not really becoming a Nokia fanboy, let me clarify that if I gave the wrong impression. Naturally being SE's main smart phone competitor, it's normal to compare with Nokia and humiliate SE by showing what the competition is doing right
I also want to point out regarding your statement that not every user knew to update their N95, these are smart phones supposed to be used by "smart" people, if they don't have a clue as to what their phone is, they probably shouldn't be using them Shouldn't be like this but will probably be so until the technology evolves further.
P990i: A mistake, a curse and a disgrace So I lowered my expectations and settled for a P1i. I couldn't keep my expectations so low for a long time so now I have an HTC Touch HD |
max_wedge
Joined: Aug 29, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Australia
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A true smartphone would be updated over the network, seemlessly and free (via deals between oem and operator)
I accept that people SHOULD know better, but the fact is very few average phone users know about firmware updates. None of my friends or customers know about firmware updates unless they are actually interested in the technical side of phones. Even many computer techs don't know they can update their phones (and they should know better). We can't judge the general public based on us here at ESATO. Even on Esato, I've seen many new models severaly dumped on by noobs, who don't realise they can update to current improved firmware. It happened with K750, yet look how successful that phone was. In the first 6 months you would have thought it was a complete failure, but it just turned out to be noobs bitching about simple things. After a few firmware releases, and suddenly K750 is the best thing since sliced bread.
Unless people have enough interest in phone tech to actually go visit a phone forum they usually don't know about firmware updating. And the proportion of phone users who has even visited a phone forum is very small imo.
That's why OTA is something that is being pushed by OEM's. They know that the end user rarely bothers or knows to update. Ultimately, a phone should alert the user that updates are available and then if the user accepts, download the update automatically via OTA (free, at the oem's cost).
Nokia may not have stuffed up as badly as the P990 release, and they may atm have their shit together better than SE, but what comes around goes around.
I'm not justifying SE, it's just that I don't understand why people think Nokia are any better. If anything Nokia have handled customer relations a bit better than SE has of late, but I'm sure I wouldn't have to try hard to find disgruntled Nokia owners. 
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mib1800
Joined: Mar 18, 2004
Posts: > 500
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@max_wedge
the N70 to this day still has memory problems and Nokia stopped releasing new firmware less than 2 years after it was introduced.
I have seen quite a few other references to crashing problems with the N70 so my handset is not the only one with that problem.
Which problem you are having with your N70 again?
Your choice of using N70 to deflect the criticism of SE handling of P990 is not a wise one. N70 was and is still a great device and the only thing it suffered is its relatively slow UI. In terms of memory, stability and usability it is FAR better than P990.
Maybe you should have use N80 . But even with N80 Nokia has proven that it is a league above SE in terms of support as subsequent firmware release has made N80 a very stable and usable device.
I think SE deserves all the flake it is getting for the P990. And it may not be a bad thing if SE learn from this mistake. I think many would give SE a second chance if SE does not repeat this again.
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max_wedge
Joined: Aug 29, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Australia
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I agree SE should take heed of the issues with P990. I'm not arguing about that. But I say again, if you think Nokia are guilt free you are just as bad a Nokia fanboy as you claim of anyone who dares defend SE
I used the N70 as an example of a phone that could do with further firmware improvement but which was dropped by Nokia after less than 2 years. Same as P990. Okay P990 is a worse example I admit.
Btw, I'm not dissing the N70. I do actually like the phone (apart from the UI which I just don't like). But it's a solid phone, with good spec level (for it's day), and stylish.
But a quick google and it's obvious I'm not the only one who has problems with N70 crashing. I've also seen posts about N70 with the same problems mine has.
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23RB
Joined: Mar 18, 2008
Posts: 1
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hi have a small problem with my SE i have an unlocked white n gold edition SE w850i origionally on vodafone i'm on 3 network and this being some features are restricted due to the fact that it's not a 3 phone can anybody help me brand it as a 3 phone or something where i can use the phone to the full potential i'd apreciate any help thnx ppl |
makbil
Joined: Oct 26, 2006
Posts: > 500
From: Istanbul
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@23RB, you'll have to post your question on the W850 thread, as you may have noticed this is the P990 & SE bashing and bitching thread
@max_wedge, I don't intend to become a fan boy for any brand. If I ever was one, I probably supported SE until my P990 experience. I totally agree that if we look around we'll see technical problems with every brand out there. It's SE's attitude that brings them several notches down from the others. Nokia's name keeps coming up because they are SE's major competitor in the smart phone category. I'm really waiting to see Nokia's touch screen device, that will be the true comparison between these two companies and we will see where each one stands.
I still believe that the P990 design is way better than anything currently on the market and the build quality is much better than Nokia, although SE has serious QC issues. The problem is SE's decision to abandon P990 and totally ignore its customers. Most P990 owners were die hard SE fans and probably had previous experience with the former P series. The fact is, SE could have corrected the problem but decided not to because they just didn't care.
P990i: A mistake, a curse and a disgrace So I lowered my expectations and settled for a P1i. I couldn't keep my expectations so low for a long time so now I have an HTC Touch HD |
Dogmann
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: > 500
From: London England
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@Max
The N70 was alreday old when the P990 was launched as it runs S60 2nd Edition not even 3rd Edition now if Nokia stopped firmware after 2 years that is still twice as long as SE supported the P990 for which was under one year. Also after SE released what they considered the last Firmware that introuduced 3 new bugs it took a huge protest from users to even get one final firmware to fix the newly introuduced bugs that SE claimed was a final and stable firmware. Now if you take that attitude into account it is hardly surprising so many are seriously disappointed at SE's attitude and behaviour and makes it very easy to understand thier anger.
Also how ever bad you think the N95 was on release it's only problem was Multitasking it didn't constantly restart in the middle of calls or any of the wonderful things the P990 did to display "Your devcie has restarted to improve performance" Still the most absurd thing i have ever seen any manufacturer put on devcie they know is not stable to explain why your devcie just crashed as it means they knew this was going to happen yet still saw fit to release the device and contrary to what everyone thought they weren't able to fix it quickly with firmware upgrades either.
As for upgrading software with the N95 well despite what you think no technical know how is required neither is hunting for the upgrade program either as it is included in the PC Suite and says quite simply update phone software it really couldn't be easier. I even believe that now it informs you when newer firmware is available to.
As i have said no one in there right mind would try and claim Nokia are perfect and make no mistakes, but what we do claim is that Nokia at least do something about them and release far more firmware and much quicker and it tends to fix things without constantly introducing more bugs each time it fixes one unlike SE. Yet again when we are talking about SE and how they treat their users what relevance does what any other manufacturer have and it doesn't is the answer. Two wrongs don't make a right it is no comfort that another manufacturer does wrong if i bought an SE or intended to buy an SE only how they behave concerns me the rest is totally irrelevant.
You accuse many others of being Nokia Fan boys as thier motive for attacking SE how about we attack SE quite simply because they deserve it? Your never ending defence of the indefensible and support and justification for SE is without foundation and whilst you like to claim you are not an SE Fan Boy or biased that's not what it looks like to those you are happy to accuse of being Nokia Fan Boys. Don't do as i do do as i say springs to mind.
Marc
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Nokia E90,8GB SDHC, Fring, Tom Tom 6
Dogmanns Nokia E90 Blog @ http://dogmann.vox.com/
Honoured to have won BEST DEBATER
[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2008-03-18 10:38 ] |
dr_thug
Joined: Nov 11, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: India
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On 2008-03-18 10:53:32, makbil wrote:
@23RB, you'll have to post your question on the W850 thread, as you may have noticed this is the P990 & SE bashing and bitching thread
@max_wedge, I don't intend to become a fan boy for any brand. If I ever was one, I probably supported SE until my P990 experience. I totally agree that if we look around we'll see technical problems with every brand out there. It's SE's attitude that brings them several notches down from the others. Nokia's name keeps coming up because they are SE's major competitor in the smart phone category. I'm really waiting to see Nokia's touch screen device, that will be the true comparison between these two companies and we will see where each one stands.
I still believe that the P990 design is way better than anything currently on the market and the build quality is much better than Nokia, although SE has serious QC issues. The problem is SE's decision to abandon P990 and totally ignore its customers. Most P990 owners were die hard SE fans and probably had previous experience with the former P series. The fact is, SE could have corrected the problem but decided not to because they just didn't care.
I second that.
Apple still dishes out firmware updates to its consumers...Nokia exchanged thousands of faulty batteries for new ones for free in India.But SE didn't even bother to give more firmware updates and issued a comment to hundreds of pleading P990 users in the SE dev thread that the phone is perfect and if you are not satisfied,buy a P1i.
Just because of the faulty P990 and the attitude SE showed us,my next phone(or ever) will be least likely from SE porfolio. | |
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Posted: 2008-03-17 13:27
So I lowered my expectations and settled for a P1i. I couldn't keep my expectations so low for a long time so now I have an HTC Touch HD 
