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0800 numbers on Orange UK.. |
jalu
Joined: Oct 25, 2002
Posts: > 500
PM |
Which is exactly why they are doing what they are doing 
Jalu
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bossjohnc
Joined: Jan 24, 2003
Posts: 450
From: UK
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Personally I don't see what the big deal is...
a) No calling card numbers are free on Virgin anyway
b) If you're on Orange, when you signed the contract you signed to say that you'd pay for calls to 0800 calling card services (it's in there) whatever tarrif you're on.
I don't think that Orange are too worried about losing "calling card" customers who pay no line rental and generate very little revenue. |
pachy
Joined: Nov 05, 2002
Posts: > 500
PM |
@Bossjohnc, as i see it, Orange allowed people (on the quiete) to take out OVP deals purely for the 0800's to use calling card companies. (me & many of my friends have been using calling card calls on Orange for years, in fact since 1999. which includes massive savings on calls abroad @miss uk) Orange knew a couple of years back that they were in a race to get as many people on their network as poss.
They were not bothered if these new customers were profitable or not, as £5 a month from a new customer for sms use is better than nothing at all, the reason they did it was because with a huge move towards mobile www & video messaging these cheapskate calling card customers would aventually start spending on things like MMS & email via GPRS. they would stay with Orange for years, mobile networks is all about your "customer base" but it all went wrong when people started using multiple phones & twin sims, Oftel recently spotted that huge numbers of people now carry 2 or 3 phones one for CC calls, one for free sms & one for same network calls, all the networks lose in this situation & i think thats why all the "loss leaders" are stopping.
Sorry for the long post but Orange promised me i would continue to get free 0800 numbers on OVP a couple of years ago because "all contract Orange deals give them" thats what they said & i'm not accepting there "new" mob handed approach to their customers & i feel strongly about it. even though i do use calling cards, EVERY month Orange do get some of my money for other services. |
jalu
Joined: Oct 25, 2002
Posts: > 500
PM |
Sorry Pachy but here's where I strongly disagree.
You make it sound like Orange knew all along what giving free 0800 numbers would do and didn't care. I don't believe it to be that way.
I think it was more likely that Orange either:
(a) didn't know these things existed (not very likely)
(b) didn't think they were that much of a problem.
This is similar to the personal 070 numbers that were being used to make cheap international calls.
As with any slightly dodgy thing, the popularity of these 'calling cards' will most likely have grown at an expedential rate, meaning that it is now a big problem that Orange have to deal with.
Sure they get *some* money from you, but the goal of any network is to increase its ARPU (average revenue per user) and if it has to clamp down on these workaround of call charges to do so, it makes good business sense to do it.
Orange may have made a promise two years ago and your circumstances may not have changed in that time, but the problem has obviously become bigger and Orange need to deal with it.
JAlu
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simon69c
Joined: Feb 24, 2003
Posts: 177
From: Southampton, UK
PM |
@Jalu
Well this is the problem with networks now - they are convinced that ARPU is the most importnat thing for them. Sure on paper it may look like you are getting lots of money out of your users but you have to remember that even low spend customers are making them some money - it seems pointless to me to ignore them completely to the extent that they just leave for another network. No network is losing money by having low spend customers who use calling cards. If they treat those customers like sh!t then they will leave and that is when they really do start losing money - and the low spending users may have friends who have very large monthly bills who may also move with them to stay "on-net" etc.
I signed up to OVP Virgin which never stated that all calling card services would be charged (at least not that I ever saw). The only thing they had was on the tariff table for OVP Virgin which had a smallprint adendum to the free 0800 bit which stated "certain calls to calling card services will be chargeable" which to me suggests that not all calling card services will be charged -just "certain" ones (i.e. ones they know about). Of course now the smallprint has been changed to say that from 1st May they will all be chargeable. |
dave_uk
Joined: Mar 06, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: London, UK
PM |
@jalu and bossjohnc
Couldn't agree more. Come on the rest of you guys. You might not like having to pay for CC access numbers but it's very simple. They're running a business, not a charity. It clearly doesn't benefit Orange to allow low-end users or anyone else for that matter to use these numbers for free as it means, if that's all you do with your line, your 12 months line rental will barely cover the subsidy on your handset. Also, all the other networks have ben doing it for ages. Whoever argued that "some 0800 numbers may be chargeable" means by implication that some will not needs to wake up and smell the coffee.
We're already getting the cost of xnet calls reduced in the UK thanks to Oftel and increased competition e.g 3 means that you are set to get more for your line rental as well. You can't have everything.....
But for those who do want everything - use Telco. They change their access codes when Orange realises they're CC numbers so they remain free to call. And it's a good service, so I'm told. Personally, I can't be arsed for another bill, an access code etc when my bills are low enough as it is.....
I do love retailer discounts!
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wapchimp
Joined: Jun 09, 2002
Posts: > 500
From: Land of the chimps
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orange r not charging for 0800 numbers if you are on a standard orange talkplan. it wouldnt surprise me though if it did change in the future. |
jalu
Joined: Oct 25, 2002
Posts: > 500
PM |
@simon69c
Look mate, I'm sorry we don't agree here but you're not thinking like a business would.
The point is that ARPU is the most important thing to a network.
Think about it. Imagine if Orange had 5 million customers. They allow their published call charges to be circumvented (this is basically what is happening) and their ARPU works out to be £1. (This is grossly simplistic, but it's just an example).
Imagine again O2, the smaller company, only has 2.5 million customers. They don't allow their charges to be circumvented and their ARPU is £3.
Who is the better off company?
Everything a network does is designed to increase ARPU. Nice tariffs, good member service, strong network coverage. It's all there to get you to spend more.
It's all fine and well to say that people will change networks, but lets be frank. If someone intentionally goes on a network different to people they call/get calls from (as in your example) just to circumvent another networks stated charges, I don't think the network will cry too much over them.
I also don't see your problem with their terms and conditions. It said that some calling card services would be charged for, like you said, probably because they thought they knew them all.
However, presumably now the number of companies offering the service have increased as have the subscribers. It makes good business sense to start charging for the 0800 numbers if that is the only way they can stop people going around what they want to charge.
Sure, they are getting some money from you at the moment but some is slipping through their fingers. That's what bothers them.
I read in an earlier post that some calls, to 'genuine' companies are staying free (I don't know an example, offhand) which I think is very reasonable.
I'm sorry, I really don't see how you can be so OUTRAGED and FURIOUS and I'M GOING TO ANOTHER NETWORK angry because Orange have finally clamped down on you stiffing them.
Jalu
PS. Yes you are stiffing them, whether you consider you are or not.
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peanut
Joined: Mar 18, 2002
Posts: > 500
From: UK: Oxon and Leics
PM |
You do not 'stiff' a company if their systems and process allow you to do a certain thing! I think everyone is forgetting the real reason for charging.....making up for the reduction in international charges.
This message was posted from a P800 |
jalu
Joined: Oct 25, 2002
Posts: > 500
PM |
Just because a company hasn't cottened on to your way of stiffing them does not mean you aren't stiffing them.
You call it making up for reduction in other things, I call it stopping circumvention of call charges. Same difference.
Jalu
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pachy
Joined: Nov 05, 2002
Posts: > 500
PM |
@Whoevers interested, using calling card services IS & NEVER has been against the law/wrong or in any way devious, some of the networks even started offering calling card services last year themselves, the P800 & T68 both have calling card menus to make CC's easy to use.
NOBODY is being "stiffed" Orange have been FULLY aware of Telco & companies like them for years, they let it go on (they even stopped banning the access numbers every month or so) they used it to get a huge customer base. they are NOT stupid.
Using CC's for landline & international calls is common place in bussiness circles, finding cheap ways to do things WITHIN the law is & always will be GOOD for industry.
Oftel are very happy with calling card companies & they highlight just how much people are being overcharged on their mobiles.
I can only deduct from your views that you either have shares in a mobile network OR you havn't much experience in dealing with money.
The basic idea is to keep hold of money you get & minimise extra unnessesary effort, in turn this means you don't waste energy (a valuable resource).
Telco are a british based company who can give me a daytime call to a landline for 2.5p a minute, Orange could do the same, but they dont, because like all the providers they are greedy, i'm seriously thinking of opening a shop near you,you will be able to come in & pay too much for things, please bring any likeminded friends with you !
I will always look up to companies who have sense to find ways to get a fairer deal for people, thats progress.
Anyway i expect your out checking peoples tax discs.  |
jalu
Joined: Oct 25, 2002
Posts: > 500
PM |
Nah.
I'm sitting at home, wondering how you can be outraged that Orange are charging you correctly now.
Anyway, I expect you're out being a cheap git.
Jalu
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pachy
Joined: Nov 05, 2002
Posts: > 500
PM |
Yea, i'm not going to call you names because thats for the kids, but i've just come in from driving my new Range Rover & i'm sitting in the house that i own, so yea, being a "cheap git" seems to pay off.
Better remain silent & be thought a fool,
Than open your mouth & remove all doubt !
Reminder; milk, sugar, crisps, post letter. |
simon69c
Joined: Feb 24, 2003
Posts: 177
From: Southampton, UK
PM |
Quote:
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We're already getting the cost of xnet calls reduced in the UK thanks to Oftel and increased competition e.g 3 means that you are set to get more for your line rental as well. You can't have everything.....
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Lol! Oftel are completely useless! They barely ever do anything to enforce fair play in the mobile telecoms world. They may have "forced" the mobile companies to reduce cross net charges but what have the mobile companies done in return? They've slashed subsidies on phones (without reducing line rental charges) and brought about other ott charge increases as well - just look at Orange Just Talk changes! We are now worse off than we were before!
But back to the point - using CCs is *not* underhand as people seem to be implying here. It is simply saving money through using a competitive alternative! BT/cable companies don't charge you to access CC companies through 0800 numbers on their networks - why the heck should the mobile companies be allowed to? And contrary to some peoples' belief - 0800 numbers do not cost the mobile companies anything - they actually make money on them!
I used to pay high line rental charges on contracts because I believed they were giving me good value for money - however then I switched to a no line rental tariff (OVP Virgin) because I was tired of paying for subsidies that I wasn't even using - I prefer to pay just for the calls and services I actually use. At the moment I pay a similar amount each month to my CC company and Orange. Orange still get all my on-net calls and GPRS/SMS each month so it isn't like I am giving them nothing. Why should it be up to them whether I use the cheaper competition for landlines and cross net calls? I could get PAYG SIMs for the other networks if I really wanted to - then Orange wouldn't even make any money from any 0800 calls I made!
As it happens I have now simply switched tariff so I will now have to pay £10 a month for the priviledge of being able to use competitive services - but I suspect I will still end up saving money. |
jalu
Joined: Oct 25, 2002
Posts: > 500
PM |
The thing with 0800 numbers is yes Orange makes money from them but not as much as if you used their ways of calling the numbers you are dialing using calling circles.
Also, what networks have all 0800 numbers free nowadays? I haven't heard of any...
Jalu
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Posted: 2003-04-16 00:46
