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$1000 if you can prove the Earth revolves around the Sun! |
joebmc
Joined: Jan 03, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Kent
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But when we see the earth/sun moving from this planet it can seem as either the sun moving round the earth or earth moving round the sun.
(but no sign of god either) | |
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daeid
Joined: Jan 06, 2004
Posts: 30
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the problem of proving that the earth revolves around the sun comes up in the study of particle physics. where we learned that all particles have a spin and nothing is really sitting still. so perhaps in the course of movement of the universe, where every 'body' (body refers to planets, stars, etc) is moving constantly, the path of movement causes the earth to circumnavigate the sun. but that does not in any way prove that the sun remains motionless.
the theory that the entire universe is expanding, would lead us to believe that it is true that every 'body' is in constant motion. the effect of this constant motion could be that we percieve certain 'bodies' to move around others. but it is also likely that this is just a perception, from any 'fixed' point.
it would be just as difficult a task to prove that the universe is revolving around itself. but it is also just as likely.
if you take two objects and set them at a static distance from each other, and then change your point of view, it would appear at some places that they are closer or further from each other. even though you know otherwise, it is hard to prove to someone else who is just an observer, that they remain the same distance.
if you make it even more complicated, and set up a virtual solar system... you would notice a difference in all the distances when viewed from different angles. add to that the fact that every 'body' has its own motion, at different speeds and trajectories. since the whole system is in motion, an observation from any one place inside the system causes the thought that everything else is moving around that one.
since we have never observed the movement of the universe from the sun itself, all we have to go on is assumptions. it is very possible that we have found the right explanation, but it is still hard to prove that.
is it not possible that the whole system is rotating, and that because the sun is the most massive of these 'bodies' it's motion is less apparent than the others? if so, it is also possible that the universe itself rotates, but if the sun is in motion as well, what is it revolving around? |
batesie
Joined: Feb 13, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: London, UK
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thats a good point
[addsig] |
*Jojo*
Joined: Oct 15, 2003
Posts: > 500
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This 'discussion' should have been SOLVED a long time ago, since NASA has ever flown their (Space Shuttle) very 1st journey out of Earth ! Just like the discussion early on that the Earth is FLAT, only Viking ships were present at that time, then came the assumption of the aeroplanes etc. and was proven that the world is, YES - ROUND! What I do believe is that WE are NOT ALONE, UFOs do exist !
[addsig] |
scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: UK
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On 2006-02-10 18:51:13, masseur wrote:
your first link is a good one but I feel that it involves a certain assumption about the stars being observed in order to provide the proof required whereas as I understand it, there can be no assumptions or variables involved in the proof |
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That's a fair point.
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in regards to a spacecraft observation, what proof is there that the spacecraft is stationary?
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The spacecraft wouldn't be stationary in relative terms. However, the spacecraft could be programmed to maintain one position over the course of a year and measurements could be taken by other spacecraft and ground based observers to measure the stationary spacecraft's position relative to other points to ensure that it was in fact remaining in the same point.
Another possible method would be to launch probes towards the Sun at different times of the year. The probes would be launched on straight trajectories with no deviation. Each of the probes would reach the Sun no matter what time of year they were launched from Earth. The difference in time taken by those probes to reach the Sun from the Earth would also demonstrate that the Earth must indeed be moving for there to be an increase in time between different probes.
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and no, the universe revolves around me, at least from my point of view 
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All these egos!  Are the larger egos in this thread attracting smaller egos and pulling them into orbits around themselves? 
_________________
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC
[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2006-02-11 07:01 ] |
scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: UK
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I found this on digg.
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC |
max_wedge
Joined: Aug 29, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Australia
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it's a trick question. No one is questioning whether the planets all form an orbit around the sun. This is observable and proven. The sun exerts a gravitional affect that determines precisely the path that planets take in their orbits. And those planets orbits all have the sun at their centre (for example we know earth is not the centre of the solar system).
The sun is unquestionably the centre of the planets orbits. However this fact does not require the sun be the centre of rotation of the solar system itself. The central point of the planets orbits, the sun, may actually rotate around the earth, relative to an outsideframe of reference. The earth may be stationary, with all the planets orbiting the sun as it orbits earth (although that would take some pretty funky gravitational anomolies let me tell you).
From a point of view of logic, it is impossible to prove that the earth orbits the sun, or vice versa, unless you can measure an absolute point in time and space. Where is that point? Does such a point exist?
The real answer is that relative to the frame of reference we find ourselves in, and through understanding of rotational dynamics gleaned from observation, it is possible to suppose that the sun is the centre of the solar system and then to practice good science on the basis of this supposition. If something always happens (eg: the rotation of the planets is predictable), then using inductive reasoning you can form workable hypothesis.
For example, whether you believe the sun or the earth is the centre of rotation of the solar system, the seasons still come and go and farmers laugh at those who argue about it. Everyday the suns comes up, and every evening it goes back down again. Summer follows spring every year. No argument can dispute the basic dynamics of the solar system. Only by stepping outside of the solar system would it be possible to prove the question one way or the other. Even then the answer would still only be relative to our new frame of reference.
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swwjpx3
Joined: Jan 08, 2009
Posts: 0
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one way to prove the earth revolves around the sun is with; Venus, Jupiter and a telescope (if you want to be able to differentiate between the 2 objects anyways). for added help, you can also use Venus and it phases (like the moon) to help; need a flashlight and a sphere for this.
Jupiter and Venus:
- if you track Venus at night and or in the early morning you will notice that it is always close to the horizon, you will never see it far from the horizon at any time of the year.
- Jupiter on the other hand can be seen close to one of the horizons (spring 2008) during say the begging of the summer and towards the end of the summer / year closer to the opposite horizon. (proof; need to say at 10pm this date (spring) Jupiter was at this horizon here, and at 10pm in the fall Jupiter was at this point (opposite horizon)).
- The point here is that Jupiter is in an outside orbit when compared to the earth and both planets orbit around the sun and Venus is in an inside orbit; if the solar system (forget the universe) revolved around the earth you would track Venus in a similar manner as we do with Jupiter.
Now to Venus and its phases; like the moon, Venus has phases which you can see through a telescope. if you take a flashlight and a sphere and have the sphere orbit the flash light you can watch the phases and jot them down in a notebook. now with your telescope you can follow Venus and its phases (this is going to take some time; not sure how much, just starting to figure it out myself, but a year or more wouldn't surprise me). now follow Venus and you can watch it go through its phases and by comparing your notes you can see where the earth is in relation to Venus and the Sun; kind of like trigonometry. (meaning your using two points to find the third; if you assume the sun is the center of the solar system the data will fall together easier than trying to figure out why the phases aren’t matching with the earth at the center of the solar system)
FYI: with a cheap telescope (and I mean cheap; like the kind you get at wal-mart) you can differentiate between Jupiter and Venus, and vise versa; giving the proof you need.
In the end the above are helpful hints; you still need to include things like how constellations can be seen in the same point of the sky at this time of year(even if you didn't have the calendar you could count each day until Orion is at the same point in the sky at the same time(example: when you can first see stars after the sun sets.) this should equal about 365 days; just like our current year.)
In the end it may not prove the sun is in the center of the solar system but it helps you get closer, you can bring mars and mercury into the argument. maybe mars has similar phases like Venus and the moon. (you may not win money but I hope this helps everyone picture how you can help prove to yourself the fact we are taught in school and asked to take for granted.)
If someone can help me figure out how to mathematically show the planets orbits aren’t circular but more elliptical, and prove this to myself on paper; I would appreciate it. If you can help me prove this by my observation and or using math I would appreciate it even more.
[ This Message was edited by: swwjpx3 on 2009-01-08 02:42 ] |
mcrosser
Joined: Oct 11, 2005
Posts: > 500
From: Peru
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By Third Law of Newton, a Planet and the Sun exert force in same magnitude but in opposite direction over each other. The formula for force is:
F=m.a
F=force
m=mass
a=acceleration
Now, if wee llok up mass of planets and sun, we'll find that the sun has more mass (not volume) than any planet in the solar sistem, with 1.991x10^30 Kg , followed by the heaviest planet, Jupiter, with 1.90x10^27 Kg
So, in the example above, taking Jupiter's particular case, we would have
F(Sun)=F(Jupiter)
m(Sun).a(Sun)=m(Jupiter).a(Jupiter)
dividing
a(Jupiter) / a(Sun) = m(Sun) / m(Jupiter)
Wich gives a relation of the acceleration of Jupiter with respect to the Sun. If we divide m(Sun) / m(Jupiter) with the above data it gives a number higher that 1, wich indicates that in the opposite side if the equation, a(Jupiter) > a(Sun)
Therefore, Jupiter accelerates towards the Sun much more than the Sun accelerates to Jupiter. In common language, Jupiter revolves around the Sun and not viceversa. Same so with the other plantes, given their lower mass.
Note:
From what I said above, you can think (correctly) that you can make the Earth accelerate towards you when you jump. But given the huge difference in mass (an average 70Kg vs 5.98x10^24) the Earth accelerates so little that it is insignificant and passes unnoticed.
Note 2:
Given that many planets do exert a force over the Sun, the Sun accelerates towards the resulting vector force, so it's not stationary.
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faultymonkey
Joined: Sep 17, 2005
Posts: 29
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On 2006-02-10 20:19:21, Jim wrote:
Why the moon or our satellites doesn't "fall" back to earth ? Because they have a certain speed that produce a force (centripetal) exactly the same, but in another direction, as the force of gravity from the earth. This is the same for earth vs. sun.
This is basic physics 
[ This Message was edited by: Jim on 2006-02-10 19:20 ]
I hate to be patronising but centripetal force (thank you for not saying centrifugal!) is a force towards the centre of rotation (i.e. towards the earth). Its the Moons inertia that stops it from falling (quickly) towards the Earth. The actual truth is that the Moon is getting closer to the Earth all the time, but by such a small distance that it is not noticeable. This is because the Earths gravity is slowly drawing in the Moon.
NASA also believe that the Earth is doing the same with the Sun, moving slowly towards it. However they haven't been able to measure it as the it is almost humanly impossible to define the surface of the Sun.
Gallileos theory that the Earth revolves around the Sun is only now believed to be true because it hasnt been disproved in all the time its been around. If you can disprove his theory then we will all have to re-think how our solar system works.
The inconvenient truth is that, like many things in our universe, we will never be able to tell for sure if this theory is true or otherwise. So until the end of time all we can do is merely speculate.
[Physics lesson over] | |
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Posted: 2006-02-10 22:28
