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Visual communication like never before with the Sony Ericsson Satio |
synn
Joined: Feb 09, 2009
Posts: > 500
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Boinng: that article had enough quotes from actual developers to know that the situation is very real. Like I said, if a site like Giz (which favors Apple so much that it isn't funny) comes up with such an article, there must be some truth in it. Give the situation some time and see how it pans out.
As for epocware, I'm very familiar with their history. Dinosaurs they might be, but they're still making money from their overpriced stuff. So clearly there's enough demand. Hell, knocking on them for overpricing something with inferior functionality is an exercise in irony for someone who uses an Apple product, I'd say.
If one has a problem with the way they sell their wares, always remember one simple thing.
Whether or not it is worth that kind of money is entirely upto you and your needs.
Let me rephrase that for you. You don't HAVE to buy them. There are enough freeware and cheaply priced commercial ware for Symbian available out there and anyone who has basic working experience with the OS knows how and where to find them. Judging the entire development community of an OS by one single company and their business model is a very uneducated opinion.
By that yardstick, every single cheap app in the appstore would be nullified by the overpriced cellphone holder that TomTom sells for three figures.
[ This Message was edited by: synn on 2009-10-19 14:37 ] | |
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anonymuser
Joined: Dec 17, 2002
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On 2009-10-19 15:33:12, synn wrote:
Boinng: that article had enough quotes from actual developers to know that the situation is very real. Like I said, if a site like Giz (which favors Apple so much that it isn't funny) comes up with such an article, there must be some truth in it. Give the situation some time and see how it pans out.
Some developers are losing money hand over fist, there's no doubt of that. Some estate agents are losing money also, as are some hairdressers, some restaurants, and some taxi drivers. That's business - that's how it works. Winners and losers.
As for epocware, I'm very familiar with their history. Dinosaurs they might be, but they're still making money from their overpriced stuff. So clearly there's enough demand. Hell, knocking on them for overpricing something with inferior functionality is an exercise in irony for someone who uses an Apple product, I'd say.
They're dinosaurs, and - in my opinion - they'll soon be extinct. Their products aren't just inferior and overpriced, they're also ancient, both in concept and execution - still addressing the same geeky niche that may have been lucrative in 2002, but is now being washed away.
If one has a problem with the way they sell their wares, always remember one simple thing. You don't HAVE to buy them. There are enough freeware and cheaply priced commercial ware for Symbian available out there and anyone who has basic working experience with the OS knows how and where to find them. Judging the entire development community of an OS by one single company and their business model is a very uneducated opinion.
As jmcomms says, because they're quite high profile in the Symbian world and their apps appear in lots of top tens etc, they're exactly what Symbian as a platform is being judged on, whether you agree with that or not. To the casual observer choosing a new phone, what passes for the Symbian app "scene" at the moment is a complete turn-off to anyone who's seen what's available elsewhere - and I'm not just talking about the iPhone.
[ This Message was edited by: Boinng on 2009-10-19 14:45 ] |
synn
Joined: Feb 09, 2009
Posts: > 500
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...and whether YOU agree or not, I see more reason in that Giz article than the justifications you're giving. Take that any way you please. Now can we get back to Symbian and the Satio please?
The Symbian app scene right now is a mess because there is no centralized resource for downloads. That doesn't mean that they don't exist. 5 minutes spent in a blog like dailymobile.se would lead you to a bunch of freeware and cheap commercial ware that is ACTUALLY USEFUL in your day to day life. People who complain about the Symbian app scene are usually people who don't have much experience on the platform. I should know, I was one of them too a while ago.
Someone doesn't like a 10 pound alarm? Fine. Don't buy it. Is that the ONLY alarm available for Symbian and would your productivity go absolutely down the drain if you don't spend that 10 quid? Hardly. Therefore, there's no reason to complain. Don't like a high priced app? Vote with your wallet and get something cheaper and equally/ more productive. It's basic logic, really.
With Symbian Horizon launching a centralized app store next year, most of these concerns become non factors any way. |
JWM
Joined: Dec 22, 2006
Posts: 32
From: Dar es Salaam, Tanzania
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I have just got mine!
It is really a nice phone!
It has come with HPM-77 and CCR-70 in the Box. Does everyone get these accessories?
[ This Message was edited by: JWM on 2009-10-19 15:07 ] |
synn
Joined: Feb 09, 2009
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On 2009-10-19 16:06:49, JWM wrote:
I has come with HPM-77 and CCR-70 in the Box. Does everyone get these accessories?
The headphone model that's in the box depends on the market that the phone is shipped to. |
jmcomms
Joined: Mar 12, 2002
Posts: > 500
From: Jonathan Morris
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You seem to be basing your whole argument on an anti-Apple stance (fair enough, except it's pretty irrelevant when we're talking about S60 and ITS own situation) and a report on a trusted website, which must therefore automatically override any opinions from people on here?
What cheaper apps are there out there then? You're right that there's no proper app store - but I disagree that there are loads of cool apps out there just waiting to be found. Many are buggy, not supported or just downright awful.
Apple apps, whether you like it or not, generally look good - and the ones that are rubbish can be removed just as quickly as they were installed.
Forget just building a funky looking store, you also need to have a decent way of managing, installing and removing them too.
[ This Message was edited by: jmcomms on 2009-10-19 15:13 ] Jonathan Morris
Editor, What Mobile magazine - the UK's leading mobile phone magazine
www.whatmobile.netforum.whatmobile.net
Twitter @jmcomms |
anonymuser
Joined: Dec 17, 2002
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On 2009-10-19 15:53:31, synn wrote:
...and whether YOU agree or not, I see more reason in that Giz article than the justifications you're giving.
Because you want to, because it suits your argument. Let's not focus on the fact that the entire article is predicated on the comments of a whole four different devs (from a potential cast of thousands) and only one of them actually hints at losing money or leaving the appstore.
There really is nothing new in that article - we've been hearing about the "race to the bottom" since the appstore opened. The low prices shock people because they're used to the high-prices elsewhere, but the simple economic truth is that those other platforms don't have 40-50 million users actively engaged in buying and downloading apps. When even just a 50th of that userbase buy your app for 59p, that's an awful lot of development paid for right there - and it can and does happen.
There are plenty of devs with quality apps who don't pitch at the lowest point, and compete simply at prices they feel are reasonable to pay - just like the author of Tweetie mentioned in that article. He charges a fair price and makes plenty of money, with his £1.79 right up there amongst the bestsellers. So where's the problem? Even that Gizmodo article can only counter that with the terrifying fact that some users complain - so what? Plenty more buy the app, because it's good, which is exactly how it should be.
People who complain about the Symbian app scene are usually people who don't have much experience on the platform.
Like most potential customers of phones like the Satio, then.
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synn
Joined: Feb 09, 2009
Posts: > 500
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The whole iPhone debate comes up each time Boinng shows up. That's just how it goes. 
Boinng: You're presenting nothing but opinions and what-ifs; as usual. You seem to have missed the point about LONG TERM implications to the developer world that I (and the Giz article) made, sadly. No matter. If you want to debate the pros and cons of the Apple business model, feel free to start a new thread. I'll be glad to contribute with facts and numbers. This thread was heading down the right path before you jumped in with the usual ware and i'd love to see it resume the previous direction.
As for apps, I needed an exchange client, an integrated IM client, weather, attachment viewing and a better browser. Know what? I paid zilch for them thanks to Roadsync (bundled), Fring, Worldmate (bundled), Quickoffice (Bundled) and Opera Mini. I will spend money on Handy task manager because it IS useful and maybe on Adobe reader because Adobe became greedy and decided to charge money for something that's free for the desktop. maybe i'm an old fogey who's not into "fun" anymore, but i don't need a fart app or two. But they sure do exist out there. I wanted productivity and I'm getting it for a decent price.
Forget just building a funky looking store, you also need to have a decent way of managing, installing and removing them too.
umm, what exactly is wrong with Symbian's Application manager?
[ This Message was edited by: synn on 2009-10-19 15:33 ] |
jmcomms
Joined: Mar 12, 2002
Posts: > 500
From: Jonathan Morris
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Installing an app where you need to select a drive, may have to tick other boxes or read 'readme' files and then no easy way to remove apps (well, there are ways like pressing clear on some icons - if you've got a clear button) is not anywhere near as easy as the iPhone, or well, any of the other app stores. It's fine for me, you and others on here I am sure - but then I can also find .sis or .jar files, download them from a website and Bluetooth them to my phone, or copy via mass storage mode.. but, this is because it's my job to understand these things - and have done so for almost exactly 20 years.
Apps can be downloaded, installed, moved, deleted and backed up with ease on the iPhone. If I do a reset/firmware update on a S60 phone, some apps may not even work and I can't easily move them around. In fact, Symbian has a complex file structure that sees many config files and the like put all over the place (not always, but sometimes) and is reminiscent of a Windows PC and registry.
Symbian needs to be addressing this, as well as building a decent application store (and a standard one, not Nokia doing one, Samsung doing another and SE introducing yet another) and then encouraging developers to be a little more realistic.
Does anyone understand why the Zip tool only works for 14 days and must then be paid for? Or why RoadSync is a version that can't be upgraded to the latest version because it needs SE to approve it first? (And the same seems to apply for Google Maps and Wisepilot).
Even Android makes it very easy to do updates, like the iPhone. In fact, rather than have us making comparisons with the iPhone let's perhaps compare S60 to Android, BlackBerry, Windows Mobile etc. Probably a fairer comparison in my opinion.
I'm only knocking S60 because I want it fixed. Having been flown out to (I think) Prague back in 2001 or 2002 to see the launch of Series 60, I have been following and using it quite loyally for ages - it's always constructive criticism.
[ This Message was edited by: jmcomms on 2009-10-19 15:52 ] Jonathan Morris
Editor, What Mobile magazine - the UK's leading mobile phone magazine
www.whatmobile.netforum.whatmobile.net
Twitter @jmcomms |
synn
Joined: Feb 09, 2009
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On 2009-10-19 16:50:03, jmcomms wrote:
Installing an app where you need to select a drive, may have to tick other boxes or read 'readme' files and then no easy way to remove apps (well, there are ways like pressing clear on some icons - if you've got a clear button) is not anywhere near as easy as the iPhone, or well, any of the other app stores. It's fine for me, you and others on here I am sure - but then I can also find .sis or .jar files, download them from a website and Bluetooth them to my phone, or copy via mass storage mode.. but, this is because it's my job to understand these things - and have done so for almost exactly 20 years.
[ This Message was edited by: jmcomms on 2009-10-19 15:52 ]
Maybe it's because I've been using Windows for a decade and half, but I find using S60's app manager and file system second nature. I installed and successfully installed apps on an S60 phone for the first time without any assistance. I'm sure that 99.99% of the people who use an S60 phone has installed say, firefox or winzip on a PC sometime or the other. This is hardly any different. Seriously, not as complicated as you make it out to be.
Uninstalling is easy too. Settings > Application manager > Installed applications > choose the application you need to remove and give uninstall. That's about it. EXACTLY like using Control panel > add remove progs on a PC.
S60 has a proper file manager too, which is something the iPhone with all its usability can't boast. I'm not putting on an anti-Apple rant, but a file browser is one of the BASIC fatures one expects, even on a feature phone. ANd on that regard, S60 delivers.
Apps can be downloaded, installed, moved, deleted and backed up with ease on the iPhone. If I do a reset/firmware update on a S60 phone, some apps may not even work and I can't easily move them around. In fact, Symbian has a complex file structure that sees many config files and the like put all over the place (not always, but sometimes) and is reminiscent of a Windows PC and registry.
The new Ovi suite has made this a simple process just like on the iPhone. If I'm not mistaken, SE has something similar in the works too. Symbian is getting there.. 
Symbian needs to be addressing this, as well as building a decent application store (and a standard one, not Nokia doing one, Samsung doing another and SE introducing yet another) and then encouraging developers to be a little more realistic.
Like I said before, the Symbian Horizon appstore is coming next year. A centralized appstore certainly does wonders to an OS and I completely agree with you on that regard. Hell, I'm testing my skills on theme development lately and I'll hold back deployment of my work until the Symbian Horizon appstore is a reality.
Does anyone understand why the Zip tool only works for 14 days and must then be paid for? Or why RoadSync is a version that can't be upgraded to the latest version because it needs SE to approve it first? (And the same seems to apply for Google Maps and Wisepilot).
Licensing restrictions that are beyond the control of the handset manufacturer. It's unrealistic to expect them to pay full fee for every bundled app AND sell the handset at a reasonable price. As of now, the Satio retails at a very decent price with a nice set of bundled software.
I'm only knocking S60 because I want it fixed. Having been flown out to (I think) Prague back in 2001 or 2002 to see the launch of Series 60, I have been following and using it quite loyally for ages - it's always constructive criticism.
[ This Message was edited by: jmcomms on 2009-10-19 15:52 ]
I understand that your concerns are genuine. The thing with Symbian is that it's undergoing a metamorphosis at the moment. We need to give it time before the Symbian Foundation ecosystem takes shape.
Android may be getting all the limelight (For all the right reasons too) in the world of open OS's at the moment, but 2010 would be a landmark year in Symbian history too. Let's hope for the best.
[ This Message was edited by: synn on 2009-10-19 16:09 ] |
jmcomms
Joined: Mar 12, 2002
Posts: > 500
From: Jonathan Morris
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I don't expect to get a free upgrade from V4 to V5 (for example), but when a company issues a new revision that specifically fixes known issues with syncing (in this case Google syncing) that makes the version that ships with the Satio totally unusable, I am rather surprised that I cannot update.
In fact, I can register my free copy - which even shows up as 'SE version' on the website, but can't then update because it needs the approval from SE. Now perhaps SE wants to maintain some quality control, but when will they actually approve it? The other problem is how slow each manufacturer seems to update things - and sometimes they should simply take a step back and let others get on with it.
For the record, I think the way apps are managed on Windows is just as bad. You know as well as I do how bad uninstalling can be, with the amount of legacy files left behind. I don't really want Symbian to be like this, even though I am quite capable of coping with it while it IS like that. I disagree that everyone else can copy (certainly not 99.99%).
[ This Message was edited by: jmcomms on 2009-10-19 16:22 ] Jonathan Morris
Editor, What Mobile magazine - the UK's leading mobile phone magazine
www.whatmobile.netforum.whatmobile.net
Twitter @jmcomms |
synn
Joined: Feb 09, 2009
Posts: > 500
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The Satio has been out for barely 2 weeks now. Let's give SE some time and the benefit of the doubt before we complain about the lack of periodic updates, shall we? Sure, their UIQ update track record was far from perfect, but the SE of today is a lot more pro-active than the one then. (I say this because I KNOW how much attention they are giving to feedback on the Satio).
For the record, my official mail (Exchange) works flawlessly with Roadsync and I didn't actually feel the need to update the software. I haven't tried syncing my Gmail account with it (I use S60's built-in inbox for that), but I'll try it later and see if it's a universal problem. As a sidenote, Nokia does a great job with Mail for Exchange in this regard.
From my experience, Symbian apps leave far less entrails behind compared to some shady Windows apps (The good, reputable ones leave hardly any trace behind). Symbian has a very solid base to be built upon and hopefully with the Foundation, all the rough edges will be ironed out soon.
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jmcomms
Joined: Mar 12, 2002
Posts: > 500
From: Jonathan Morris
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Yes, the Nokia mail program is great.. shame it's Nokia-specific, not Symbian and so we won't get it.
And it's not about being on sale for just two weeks, it's the fact that updates won't be immediately forthcoming. Dataviz has already fixed the bug, but can't let me download it.. and from what I've read, you can't even install a newer version of Google Maps - so you'll have to wait until SE issues a new firmware.
That's a fundamental problem that needs to be fixed. Having highlighted the problem after 'just two weeks' is better than noticing after two years.
Jonathan Morris
Editor, What Mobile magazine - the UK's leading mobile phone magazine
www.whatmobile.netforum.whatmobile.net
Twitter @jmcomms |
synn
Joined: Feb 09, 2009
Posts: > 500
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Being someone who is in the business of reviewing mobile phones, I'm sure you have contacts within the company. Please do let them know of the issue as it'll help all the Satio customers. Also, it'd be neat if you can post your concerns at the Satio launch blog. Every Query posted there gets answered by Mr. Rikard Skogberg. |
Saka
Joined: Jan 21, 2004
Posts: 165
From: Sweden
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On 2009-10-19 16:06:49, JWM wrote:
It has come with HPM-77 and CCR-70 in the Box. Does everyone get these accessories?
I got HPM-77 and CCR-70 too.
Does anyone know if it's possible to disable virtual joypad shown with java apps? It really sucks as it takes half of the screen and it's obsolete with apps that work with touch screen (like Gmail app). | |
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Posted: 2009-10-19 15:33
