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SAD SE 2007 Portfolio-Hard to digest facts |
max_wedge
Joined: Aug 29, 2004
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On 2007-10-09 08:02:16, QVGA wrote:
If you think the joystick problem wasnt serious then you're only kidding yourself. Lots of people other than you had this problem including myself.
Dont forget the broken keypad of S500, or am i just nit picking?
K700 looked better without that label? Is that an excuse?
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[ This Message was edited by: QVGA on 2007-10-09 07:03 ]
Yes some people had problems, but overall the W800 and K750 are very reliable handsets. Most manufacturers are plagued with these kinds of problems. One year this model has a crap joystick, next year another manufacturer has a phone firmware that crashes alot before they get it fixed. These kinds of reliability issues are embedded in the mobile phone industry, SE is no different from any, and all this bitching about SE and singling SE out as some sort of disgrace is just sour grapes. Regardless of what you say, I still think it's nitpicking.
btw, of course it's sloppy build that the quickshare label fell off K700, but that was an extremely minor and non-performance affecting problem of an otherwise perfect phone, a handset that was way ahead of any other phone available for the 1st six months after it's release. If you want to diss the K700 you are barking up the wrong tree. Who cares if the quickshare label fell off.
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jcwhite_uk
Joined: Feb 18, 2004
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From: Dorset, UK Phone:Xperia Z1
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On 2007-10-09 08:02:16, QVGA wrote:
Dont forget the broken keypad of S500, or am i just nit picking?
 held their hands upto that one. They admitted that it was an unforeseen manufacturing fault with the paint reacting with the plastic. It was only a small batch affected and was remedied quite quickly.
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JK
Joined: Feb 24, 2005
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From: S. Africa - JOZI
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We want high end phones packed with features!! 
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mode
Joined: Jan 12, 2007
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On 2007-10-09 11:09:44, JK wrote:
We want high end phones packed with features!!
YES. This we do not have. You can say SE doesn't need anything new because the UI is innovative, you can say SE just trying to increase their marketshare, bla, bla, bla, but high end phones packed with new features is something SE doesn't have and we all know it. If they (or our forum mates) don't want to listen to this 'select few' who demand this, then do it for their own credibility and reputation. I realize that probably only 5% or less of the world population knows what the heck HSDPA is, but it wouldn't hurt them to have just 1 truly bangin' flagship model to silent the critics and prove undisputedly that they're still in the game. Currently even they loyal users aren't too convinced *me*cough*
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max_wedge
Joined: Aug 29, 2004
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BUt we are talking TWO features only. K850 has HSDPA, but not vga video (which is still a gimmick anyway) or GPS.
To claim that SE have let you down because they have everything anyone else has got except VGA video and GPS is just sour grapes.
The N95 is the only phone out there besides HTC devices that has everything. Motorola has GPS but lousy cameras. Samsung are releasing a GPS phone next year or late this year (previous models have been for exclusive asian markets).
Nokia DON'T have a touchscreen, so if you are gonna argue that SE should have GPS and VGA recording to classify as a phone with "Everything", then N95 should have a touchscreen (there is stronger market support for touchscreens than vga video and about the same support for gps as touchscreen imho.) The fact that Nokia are bringing out an s60 touchscreen next year indicates that it's a strong market segment. SE already have it covered but when people complain about SE they conveniently poo-poo touchscreen as irrelevent. But to those for whom touchscreens are important, Nokia has for years and years completely ignored our needs. Do you see us jumping up and down on Nokia forums claiming Nokia have a "SAD" portfolio?? BTW, N95 was released in 2006 was it not? Therefore Nokia have had no innovation in their portfolio for 2007, if you judge them on the same criteria you are judging SE.
Let's see:
P1 = 3MP AF camera, touchscreen, wifi-b and 3G (non-hsdpa).
N95 = 5MP AF but equivalent to a 3MP in terms of detail captured, no touchscreen, wifi-g (how many people really have so much stuff to copy from PC to mobile or have access to a wifi access point that makes wifi-g actually more useful than wifi-b?), HSDPA (an advantage but as stated before only about 5% of the world had hsdpa when N95 was released), GPS. VGA video, still crappy encoding, still a gimmick.
K850 = 5MP camera, considerably better at capturing detail than N95. Detail is more important imho than other camera factor since you can correct everything but lack of detail using photshop or similiar. So to me the K850 is a more professionally implemented still camera than N95. HSDPA. Dual M2 AND microSD + microSDHC support.
As far as I'm concerned the main differences are Nokia have GPS while SE don't, and SE have touchscreen while Nokia don't.
It's horses for courses. Neither company has let anyone down, they are just doing business the way they always have. The only difference is, SE have increased their choice of handsets considerably, something that in itself is a huge innovation for a company that traditionally ONLY appealed to the high end and had little to offer the average consumer.
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mario2004
Joined: Sep 16, 2006
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From: South Africa
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@Maxwedge Why do I get the feeling you are a SE Fanboy? One day (if will be over 18),you'll see why NOKIA did not need a touch screen, (the market at large know and you'll eventualy know too) - single handed operation is the key word -. And the N95's video recording may be a 'gimmick' for you, but others find it usefull (more then SE's anyway) let me not even get into the wifi and gps 
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arnoldxt
Joined: Jan 15, 2003
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From: Hong Kong
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On 2007-10-10 06:26:00, mario2004 wrote:
@Maxwedge Why do I get the feeling you are a SE Fanboy? One day (if will be over 18),you'll see why NOKIA did not need a touch screen, (the market at large know and you'll eventualy know too) - single handed operation is the key word -. And the N95's video recording may be a 'gimmick' for you, but others find it usefull (more then SE's anyway) let me not even get into the wifi and gps
agree. single handed control is everything. even M$ suggest their WM developer to do so rather than using touch screen.
and i could tell, wifi-g does really faster than b! yes, i got a lot to upload and download. and HSDPA is usable too!
SE now is just concerning about market share but forgetting what users really need! eg. SE still using its own FAST PORT rather than micro USB in their phone! (Nokia already implement micro USB in 6110 classic & slide) |
Supa_Fly
Joined: Apr 16, 2002
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From: Toronto, Ontario
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On 2007-10-09 10:27:15, jcwhite_uk wrote:
On 2007-10-09 08:02:16, QVGA wrote:
Dont forget the broken keypad of S500, or am i just nit picking?
held their hands upto that one. They admitted that it was an unforeseen manufacturing fault with the paint reacting with the plastic. It was only a small batch affected and was remedied quite quickly.
Um not a SMALL batch .... the first MAJOR batch for the S500, the W580 White, Grey where ALL affected! NOT small as this was on 3 continents; that is NOT small by ANY means. Its so bad that even large providers like Rogers Wireless, AT&T Wireless (in my corner of the world) had to recall their first batch; however some sales where affected. Even the Boulevard Black W580i is beginning to ship with black/grey keypad instead of the orange on 's site. Still minor as this phone will remain in production for another 8mths or so.
Joystick issues has plagued ALL manufacturers. Including Nokia and they've abandoned Joystick all together! Now the joystick on both the K750 & K790 I'll bet is due to the stiffness and jaringly hard movements due to GAMING and not normal dailing navigation and settings changes, or even phonebook navigation. My K790a suffered it for almost 3 wks. I carry my K790a in my pocket (khakis, or Jeans) without a pouch/protector of any kind .... boxer style if you will. After 3wks no more "down navigation issues" ... I still see dust around the stick itself but neva taken it apart. Just fixed. gaming or not its fixed. I'm all in love with my K790a again 
Now; we ALL like to have the BELLS & WHISTLE's in an SE phone; for more value for our spending dollars ... BUT NOT at the cost of a renowned and sensible navigation menU! HELLZ NO! Slow changes that are thought out and gradual, not the madness of every changing menus like S60 for the same platform type (candybar, flip, camera evolution phones, etc).
Max said it best in another thread ... that gradual marketing of camera & music phones will slowly and steadily increase their market share, revenue, and profits ... PERFECT recipe for investors. THEN when the coffers are safely above expectations then R&D will adjust time/spending and more radical phones will come to market ... but NOT without seeing what the market wants, why the market keeps coming back to SE, and what the market is willing to spend.
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SloopJohnB
Joined: Oct 28, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: the blue planet
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fanboys like it or not, has become a low/mid-end mobile phone company. It´s not trying to stay ahead or compete directly with nokia anymore. is reaching out for other markets, and it should, since it cant compete well in others. The idea that ´s got this ´big secret plan´ of releasing ´ahead of the market´ phones in the future is just too ´fanboy´ to me. is justing adapting to the market and seeing where it can do best which is music and camera (sony´s help), thats it. It will evolve from that. No secret super phones, they require too much money and years of development, not to mention that they have to be tested in the market. (which is obviously not happening). If u want all in one phones, dont buy a , ces´t la vie. |
mode
Joined: Jan 12, 2007
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On 2007-10-10 00:10:28, max_wedge wrote:
BUt we are talking TWO features only. K850 has HSDPA, but not vga video (which is still a gimmick anyway) or GPS.
To claim that SE have let you down because they have everything anyone else has got except VGA video and GPS is just sour grapes.
The N95 is the only phone out there besides HTC devices that has everything. Motorola has GPS but lousy cameras. Samsung are releasing a GPS phone next year or late this year (previous models have been for exclusive asian markets).
Nokia DON'T have a touchscreen, so if you are gonna argue that SE should have GPS and VGA recording to classify as a phone with "Everything", then N95 should have a touchscreen (there is stronger market support for touchscreens than vga video and about the same support for gps as touchscreen imho.) The fact that Nokia are bringing out an s60 touchscreen next year indicates that it's a strong market segment. SE already have it covered but when people complain about SE they conveniently poo-poo touchscreen as irrelevent. But to those for whom touchscreens are important, Nokia has for years and years completely ignored our needs. Do you see us jumping up and down on Nokia forums claiming Nokia have a "SAD" portfolio?? BTW, N95 was released in 2006 was it not? Therefore Nokia have had no innovation in their portfolio for 2007, if you judge them on the same criteria you are judging SE.
Let's see:
P1 = 3MP AF camera, touchscreen, wifi-b and 3G (non-hsdpa).
N95 = 5MP AF but equivalent to a 3MP in terms of detail captured, no touchscreen, wifi-g (how many people really have so much stuff to copy from PC to mobile or have access to a wifi access point that makes wifi-g actually more useful than wifi-b?), HSDPA (an advantage but as stated before only about 5% of the world had hsdpa when N95 was released), GPS. VGA video, still crappy encoding, still a gimmick.
K850 = 5MP camera, considerably better at capturing detail than N95. Detail is more important imho than other camera factor since you can correct everything but lack of detail using photshop or similiar. So to me the K850 is a more professionally implemented still camera than N95. HSDPA. Dual M2 AND microSD + microSDHC support.
As far as I'm concerned the main differences are Nokia have GPS while SE don't, and SE have touchscreen while Nokia don't.
It's horses for courses. Neither company has let anyone down, they are just doing business the way they always have. The only difference is, SE have increased their choice of handsets considerably, something that in itself is a huge innovation for a company that traditionally ONLY appealed to the high end and had little to offer the average consumer.
While I agree with most of your points (I think you're pretty good at bringing the best in SE), you're quite mistaken when implying that the current UIQ3 lineup is only short of 2 features that would make it the ultimate device. To you perhaps, but to me neither GPS nor VGA recording is innovation because they've been specified before in other devices. You get what I'm trying to imply? I need to be surprised, SE needs to surprise the phone industry, neither their specs nor their UI is doing this at the moment. This was far from the case a few years back when they didn't have their Cybershot & Walkman branding to do the work for them. I understand if they need a breather & the branding's doing a mighty fine job so far, but it is b*?t+@ng like this that cracks the whip so that they start moving their behinds again
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max_wedge
Joined: Aug 29, 2004
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From: Australia
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On 2007-10-10 06:26:00, mario2004 wrote:
@Maxwedge Why do I get the feeling you are a SE Fanboy? One day (if will be over 18),you'll see why NOKIA did not need a touch screen, (the market at large know and you'll eventualy know too) - single handed operation is the key word -. And the N95's video recording may be a 'gimmick' for you, but others find it usefull (more then SE's anyway) let me not even get into the wifi and gps
Why is it that when people put a point of view that happens to support a particular manufacturers effort they are called fanboys? I don't say what I say out of blind loyalty - I actually believe what I am saying is correct. You are entitled to disagree, but please don't accuse me of being a fanboy, and PLEASE don't accuse me of being 18. I'm into my forties and no freckle faced kid.
The people who like to use the handset one handed are still just a segment like those who prefer touchscreen or even who like me prefer to text two handed (it's faster). You may think one handed use is the name of the game but that's only your preference. Like all the people moaning about SE at the moment, you assume your requirements must represent the pinnacle of cellphone desire. Butt as always you are only making yourself look like an arrogant know-it-all while you put down anyone (by calling them a fanboy or questioning their maturity) who has a different preference than you. BTW, in my experience the people who care the most about one handed use are freckle faced kid's (you know, the ones you accuse me of being). So how old are you Mario?
And please tell me why wifi-g is so much more useful to you than wifi-b?? Please keep in mind that 95% of home wifi's and public access hotspots support both b and g standards. If you are so dead sure that you must have the latest wifi, why don't you castigate the N95 for not having wifi-n?
While you are at it, perhaps you can explain why Nokia are developing a touchscreen if it's such a dead market segment? What about this quote from Nokia: "Optical sensors and touch will be the next big things," Nokia Chief Technology Officer Tero Ojanpera. (http://dotsisx.blogspot.com/2007/06/nokia-into-touchscreen.html)
Earlier, Nokia had said: "Antti does concede that Nokia is ready for touchscreens if they see the demand". So if they are now developing a touchscreen device, wouldn't this indicate they see a demand for touchscreens?
The Aeon, a phone with no buttons at all? http://www.pdastreet.com/arti[....]7/6/2007-6-14-Nokia-s-All.html (okay we may never see that one, but it shows Nokia are eying off the touchscreen segment)
In doing a bit of research, it seems that many blogs and forums there are traditional Nokia users clamouring for a Nokia touchscreen. Should those users be claiming that Nokia have a "sad portfolio" as some are claiming about SE??
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max_wedge
Joined: Aug 29, 2004
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From: Australia
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On 2007-10-10 08:15:01, mode wrote:
While I agree with most of your points (I think you're pretty good at bringing the best in SE), you're quite mistaken when implying that the current UIQ3 lineup is only short of 2 features that would make it the ultimate device. To you perhaps, but to me neither GPS nor VGA recording is innovation because they've been specified before in other devices. You get what I'm trying to imply? I need to be surprised, SE needs to surprise the phone industry, neither their specs nor their UI is doing this at the moment. This was far from the case a few years back when they didn't have their Cybershot & Walkman branding to do the work for them. I understand if they need a breather & the branding's doing a mighty fine job so far, but it is b*?t+@ng like this that cracks the whip so that they start moving their behinds again
Mode, you have no idea how much I appreciate this balanced and non biased reply (unlike the mario's of the world who think their personal preference is some sort of benchmark for all that is good in a phone).
I do get what you are saying. I don't necessarily agree fully, but I get what you are saying. To me, the introduction of the Walkman range was an innovation, but they can't rest on that, it was over two years ago and they need to come up something new. The recent deluge of choice in the mid-range is a marketing innovation but not of the order you are talking about. The accelerometer in the W910 is innovative but also VERY gimmicky. The dual button keypad of the M600 was innovative, but again it was a while ago now.
I don't think there has been a shortage of innovation in SE handsets in the last couple of years, but the last 12 months have been quiet. We also have to remember that we were used to SE bringing out all-in-one handsets (a strategy that changed with the walkman/cybershot dichotomy). If Nokia had added touchscreen to N95 I would say they had picked up this standard of the "all-in-one", but how anyone can claim the N95 is an "all-in-one" handset when it doesn't have a touchscreen is beyond me. There is NO evidence anywhere that touchscreen is a dead market segment. HTC still selling like hotcakes, Motorola expanding touchscreen range, Nokia contemplating touchscreen, SE still including touchscreen in their high end models. Oh yeah, and what about the "iphone"?
SE would simply drop the touchscreen if they had evidence that it was unwanted. But yet we still get people trying to argue that the touchscreen is irrelevant and therefore has no place in comparisons between SE and other OEM's.
btw, I agree wholeheartedly when you say that GPS and VGA recording aren't innovative. This is the part of my argument as to why I am not that impressed by the N95 (as well as it's lack of touchscreen, thickness and battery life). If it were up to me, the N95 would have a touchscreen and no GPS and be a bit thinner and have better battery life.
It's my firm belief that SE are still producing quality innovative handsets. They may not have the surprises you mention, but perhaps we were spoilt in the early days of SE when they were spending Sony and Ericsson's money. Now they have to support themselves through handset sales. Hopefully they will get back to power packed all-in-ones, maybe they wont. Only time will tell.
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goldenface
Joined: Dec 17, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Liverpool City Centre
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Great posts max, you hit the nail on the head, again.
People forget that endusers have different preferences, so what features might be important for them might be useless for others, so here we have a situation whereby some members are saying, 'SE phones don't have this feature so the portfolio is SAD, and attempting to argue that their preferences are the preferences of all.
Touch screen is handy and in vogue right now, but not a necessity for me, I could do without it, however, that would hardly give me the go ahead me to label all phones without it as archaic.
GPS? I don't drive plus does the average person use this feature? No. HSDPA what does it do really that 3G doesn't? etc.
It must be great to have the resources to launch devices at the rate of Nokia and especially Samsung but at the risk of sounding like I am making excuses but I just don't think its capable right now of launching device after device after device in the high-end AND the mid and low end segments.
Plus, the original post is a bit premature as we still have the whole of Q4 and an annoucement in mid - November.
[ This Message was edited by: goldenface on 2007-10-10 08:56 ] |
truewor
Joined: Dec 21, 2006
Posts: 31
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speaking about GPS....
SE has a GPS device called HGE - 100
its a handsfree that equiped by GPS and it can used by mostly 2007 SE phones (except smart phone) (already tried at K800i, and work fine ).
so, in my opinion... you need GPS? buy HGE-100
and if you buy a new phone, you can still use your GPS.
regard
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goldenface
Joined: Dec 17, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Liverpool City Centre
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^^ Good point!
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Posted: 2007-10-09 10:10
K750|Z500|Z520|K700|K790i|K850i, :Ericsson: T18z|T28World|T36m x3|T68m (Ericsson, not the rebranded 
