| Author |
Sony Xperia Z1 |
milukugiuniu
Joined: Oct 16, 2012
Posts: 291
PM |
Chinese retailing unit screen comparison VS GS4
auto brightness:
full brightness
Obviously, the brigheness on Z1 is much higher than GX4.
[ This Message was edited by: milukugiuniu on 2013-09-12 04:18 ] | |
|
Rockarel
Joined: Jun 07, 2013
Posts: 38
PM |
On 2013-09-12 04:15:12, my ninja wrote:
@geo extra storage as in the example i shared when sdxc costs 40$ doesnt translate into $200 somehow, emmc in bulk is cheaper than sdxc. the price would not be substantially increased.
I think people tend to forget how low the margins on phones are these days. The places that the Z1 is underperforming happen to coincide with the most expensive parts of the phone, besides the camera. The camera is the main selling-point for this phone (you could make an argument for "marketing-point", but I personally think the Z1 camera lives up to the hype), so the majority of cost went towards that.
One of the big changes that Kaz was supposed to champion was to "increase margins", and there are 2 ways to do that - you can either increase the price of the phone, or decrease the bill of materials (or lay off 90% of your employees). With typical high-end electronic mark-ups being 3-4x, and mobile markups being even less, you start seeing why certain areas of the Z1 are sub-par.
This teardown shows a sample BOM analysis for the iPhone from 2012, and already you can see that just parts alone cost ~$175 (already accounting for bulk pricing). We all know how Xperia has materials on par with, or even more expensive than the iPhone (and more OF those materials), which adds to cost. Add it the base cost of the new sensor/lens, (and then R&D costs for that sensor/lens, which, depending on the development time/team that went into it, could be on par or over the component cost itself), and you can see how the price of the Z1 piles up.
So when Kaz wants to increase margin (fanboy: "hurrah Sony!"), and the phone is already more expensive than the others it's competing against (same fanboy: "F*CK you Sony!"), you're left with making sacrifices to the big-ticket items that consumers can live with. One of these is the display, which we've already seen is an IMPROVEMENT from the previous Z model, and the other is storage, which remains one of the most expensive items in phones. Period. Storage is often the MAIN SOURCE OF COST-CUTTING, AND it can be cheaply upgraded by the user by just building in a memory slot (Even though the speed sucks - not their problem).
Given the goal of bringing Sony back to profitability, I think the Z1 has been a great effort, however, we'd be lying to ourselves if we think it's a perfect device, and at the same time, we're lying to ourselves even more if we think that our "dream phone with 128gb of memory and the perfect screen and the newest best performing camera and best-greatest-most-luxurious-material-phone with a 4000mA battery" could exist at a realistic price.
TL;DR: I would advise people who are interested in this phone to look at its merits, come to terms with its failures (and understand WHY they are there: hint - its not because Sony is retarded and wants to shoot themselves in the foot), and either purchase the Z1 or get the G2, which also looks like its shaping up to be a great contender.
I'll be getting the Z1, whenever it comes to the US.
[ This Message was edited by: Rockarel on 2013-09-12 04:23 ] |
moogoo
Joined: Oct 25, 2002
Posts: > 500
From: NYC
PM, WWW
|
On 2013-09-12 05:12:07, supercoolman wrote:
for some reason cracked iPhone, cracked SGS, cracked HTC ...etc are all ignored by the trolls.
relax. they aren't trolling. the screen can be better, especially from Sony. It shouldn't have to go up against the others and barely win. It should blow them away. others, of course have issues as well. but on average, their screen quality doesn't seem to have the same problems.. which, i think it just frustrating sony fans, who simply expect more from a company they love.
@the chinese retail unit photos..
Z1 is much brighter! the camera has trouble deciphering the details of the images on the screen due to the brightness, but overall, color seems much more natural than on GS4. GS4 seems to be "cooler" in color temp overall whereas Z1 is more natural. I'm liking it!
[ This Message was edited by: moogoo on 2013-09-12 04:33 ] moogoo
Nokia 5160 -> Nokia 8260 -> SE T68i -> SE K700i -> SE Z710 -> SE Xperia X10a -> Sony Xperia S -> Sony Xperia Z1 -> Sony Xperia XZ -> Sony Xperia XZ Premium -> Sony Xperia 1ii
Website: https://www.mikedoesitall.com |
miromiromi
Joined: Jul 25, 2013
Posts: 481
PM |
On 2013-09-12 05:16:38, Rockarel wrote:
On 2013-09-12 04:15:12, my ninja wrote:
@geo extra storage as in the example i shared when sdxc costs 40$ doesnt translate into $200 somehow, emmc in bulk is cheaper than sdxc. the price would not be substantially increased.
I think people tend to forget how low the margins on phones are these days. The places that the Z1 is underperforming happen to coincide with the most expensive parts of the phone, besides the camera. The camera is the main selling-point for this phone (you could make an argument for "marketing-point", but I personally think the Z1 camera lives up to the hype), so the majority of cost went towards that.
One of the big changes that Kaz was supposed to champion was to "increase margins", and there are 2 ways to do that - you can either increase the price of the phone, or decrease the bill of materials (or lay off 90% of your employees). With typical high-end electronic mark-ups being 3-4x, and mobile markups being even less, you start seeing why certain areas of the Z1 are sub-par.
This teardown shows a sample BOM analysis for the iPhone from 2012, and already you can see that just parts alone cost ~$175 (already accounting for bulk pricing). We all know how Xperia has materials on par with, or even more expensive than the iPhone (and more OF those materials), which adds to cost. Add it the base cost of the new sensor/lens, (and then R&D costs for that sensor/lens, which, depending on the development time/team that went into it, could be on par or over the component cost itself), and you can see how the price of the Z1 piles up.
So when Kaz wants to increase margin (fanboy: "hurrah Sony!"), and the phone is already more expensive than the others it's competing against (same fanboy: "F*CK you Sony!"), you're left with making sacrifices to the big-ticket items that consumers can live with. One of these is the display, which we've already seen is an IMPROVEMENT from the previous Z model, and the other is storage, which remains one of the most expensive items in phones. Period. Storage is often the MAIN SOURCE OF COST-CUTTING, AND it can be cheaply upgraded by the user by just building in a memory slot (Even though the speed sucks - not their problem).
Given the goal of bringing Sony back to profitability, I think the Z1 has been a great effort, however, we'd be lying to ourselves if we think it's a perfect device, and at the same time, we're lying to ourselves even more if we think that our "dream phone with 128gb of memory and the perfect screen and the newest best performing camera and best-greatest-most-luxurious-material-phone with a 4000mA battery" could exist at a realistic price.
TL;DR: I would advise people who are interested in this phone to look at its merits, come to terms with its failures (and understand WHY they are there: hint - its not because Sony is retarded and wants to shoot themselves in the foot), and either purchase the Z1 or get the G2, which also looks like its shaping up to be a great contender.
I'll be getting the Z1, whenever it comes to the US.
[ This Message was edited by: Rockarel on 2013-09-12 04:23 ]
why do you think are chinese phones like huawei using better displays? they excel in contrast and viewing angles but they're not priced steeply. i think the excuse on cost-cutting is invalid. if they want to cut costs, why not buy displays from chinese suppliers? the problem is that they're hyping their triluminos displays which is supposed to be great but look at how that translates to the handsets. triluminos tvs are in fact excellent and probably the best around. if they bring that brand to their phones, it should be comparable in quality. they should just quit that hype of a brand if they don't intend to give it their all. |
Rockarel
Joined: Jun 07, 2013
Posts: 38
PM |
@ milukugiuniu
Thanks for those screen comparisons btw. Looks to me like 90deg screen quality is better than the SG4, slightly worse than HTC One/LG G2, and has decent-to-mediocre viewing angles. I'm really excited to see it in person tho, since no one in the comment-sections for these review sites seems to realize that the Z1's screen can't be fully appreciated through pictures since its color gamut is larger than the screen their viewing it on lol...
Bonovox, being one of the few people who's gotten a look at the screen in person, could you see a noticeable difference in the color gradation of the screen, or does it seem to be more marketing-hype than envelope-pushing tech? Thanks in advance! |
Rockarel
Joined: Jun 07, 2013
Posts: 38
PM |
@ Miromiromi
Simple, they have no R&D costs. What does their mark-up have to cover other than operational expenses? Nothing but bill of materials. When you have large R&D costs, the rest of your BOM budget will be reduced.
To add to this, Sony will not be selling this new sensor to outside companies, so their returns must be generated from a smaller set of products, starting with the Z1. The first implementation of their sensor will require the largest return on capital before the loss for internal rate of return starts diminishing their profit. The cost of this new sensor will slowly taper downwards as their initial investment is surpassed by positive cashflows, and the components will eventually become legacy parts used in a wider catalog of products.
Edit: Reread your post and I think I talked past your actual point. I agree that I think Sony should be using a better screen, however I think that the Triluminos technology allowed them to increase the quality of a sub-par screen in a cheap enough manner that it would satisfy xx.x% of their customers. I'm interested to see how they improve with the Z2. If I were in their position I would hold steady with an incremental SoC upgrade, continue employing Triluminos, finally jump to the 1st or 2nd tier of screen (IGZO is probably still out of the picture, although I am admittedly unsure how much it actually would add to the BOM), keep camera hardware steady while continuing to improve/expand the current capabilities with software, and maybe bump the internal storage to 32gb.
I don't think too much more is needed in terms of speed or memory in the nearterm (3gb is ridiculous, though probably necessary for GN3 and...Touchwiz *shudder*). I really think the next big step for phones will be in the form of innovative software and software optimization. Sony is at a good starting position since they've kept their UI so light, now they just have to add some innovative features that don't weigh the system down (smart features rather than ornate features), and they'll be golden.
[ This Message was edited by: Rockarel on 2013-09-12 05:00 ] |
McKinley
Joined: Feb 23, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Sweden, USA Los Angeles CA
PM |
Within two weeks, I wil be holding my Xperia Z1, and doing my own comparison against my Note 2.
I'm definitely thrilled to get my hands on this beast.
[ This Message was edited by: McKinley on 2013-09-12 04:52 ]  GH688, T28, T39 and T68 Nokia 6110, 8110, 8850, 6230, N82 Moto V525 and RAZR V3 Samsung T100, S300 and E700  T68, T610, Z600, T630, K700, S700, V800, K750, S600, M600, S500, P1i, K850, X1 X10, Vivaz |
Sonysta
Joined: May 25, 2013
Posts: 198
PM |
On 2013-09-11 12:47:24, kurtdean wrote:
Pureview 808 vs z1 vs htc one http://sonyviet.vn/2013/09/an[....]808-htc-one-mini-tai-viet-nam/ from top 808, Z1, HTC ONE
IMO 808 beats Z1 in daylight but Z1 beats 808 in low light
Btw, Xperia Z1 is the king of smartphone full hd video recording. It even beats 808 and 1020. Just see on youtube 
[ This Message was edited by: kurtdean on 2013-09-11 12:30 ]
Guy did not invent !
One thing is the Xperia Z1 be a great cameraphone... That's right and unquestionable !
Quite another thing is that it is better than the 808 Pureview !
Understand... No cameraphone on the planet is better than the 808 Pureview !
1020 is not even able to rival the 808 Pureview, much less the Xperia Z1 !
Remember:
808 has better lenses (Zeiss Vario Tessar Wide Angle 26mm) !
808 is bigger and better image sensor (Toshiba FSI 1/1.2") !
808 has better post processing (Technology Pureview) !
808 has better pixels (4,89 Microns In Mode Pureview)
808 has better flash (Xenon 3rd generation) !
P.S: Even 808 Pureview is better for night shots !
Simply set the resolution of 8 MP mode pureview, just activate the neutral density filter and set the ISO sensitivity to 400 or 800 (with this team could be defined exposure 2,7 seconds), it easily surpasses the Z1 in any night scene with the added peace of mind !
[ This Message was edited by: Sonysta on 2013-09-12 05:00 ] |
miromiromi
Joined: Jul 25, 2013
Posts: 481
PM |
On 2013-09-12 05:42:12, Rockarel wrote:
@ Miromiromi
Simple, they have no R&D costs. What does their mark-up have to cover other than operational expenses? Nothing but bill of materials. When you have large R&D costs, the rest of your BOM budget will be reduced.
To add to this, Sony will not be selling this new sensor to outside companies, so their returns must be generated from a smaller set of products, starting with the Z1. The first implementation of their sensor will require the largest return on capital before the loss for internal rate of return starts diminishing their profit. The cost of this new sensor will slowly taper downwards as their initial investment yields positive cashflow and eventually becomes a legacy part used in a wider collection of products.
[ This Message was edited by: Rockarel on 2013-09-12 04:48 ]
if you spend for R&D and end up with something like what we saw on the Z1, i think it's just plain stupidity. what's that? just for the sake of keeping the japanese pride? the moment they outsourced manufacturing operations to china, they already opened themselves to compromises. what you're saying does not make sense. if you're just trying to defend sony as a fan, i think it's time to stop. you're just blinded by the idea that sony won't go wrong and you're not helping the company become better.
it's true the 20.7mp sensor is intended only for xperias but sony is still supplying exmor rs sensors to other companies. also, i don't think they really intend to stop selling their sensors. that's their only hit product in recent years. there's even news that they will lower their sensor prices because samsung is about to offer theirs (16 mp variety) and it's cheaper. |
Rockarel
Joined: Jun 07, 2013
Posts: 38
PM |
On 2013-09-12 05:54:09, miromiromi wrote:
On 2013-09-12 05:42:12, Rockarel wrote:
@ Miromiromi
Simple, they have no R&D costs. What does their mark-up have to cover other than operational expenses? Nothing but bill of materials. When you have large R&D costs, the rest of your BOM budget will be reduced.
To add to this, Sony will not be selling this new sensor to outside companies, so their returns must be generated from a smaller set of products, starting with the Z1. The first implementation of their sensor will require the largest return on capital before the loss for internal rate of return starts diminishing their profit. The cost of this new sensor will slowly taper downwards as their initial investment yields positive cashflow and eventually becomes a legacy part used in a wider collection of products.
[ This Message was edited by: Rockarel on 2013-09-12 04:48 ]
if you spend for R&D and end up with something like what we saw on the Z1, i think it's just plain stupidity. what's that? just for the sake of keeping the japanese pride? the moment they outsourced manufacturing operations to china, they already opened themselves to compromises. what you're saying does not make sense. if you're just trying to defend sony as a fan, i think it's time to stop. you're just blinded by the idea that sony won't go wrong and you're not helping the company become better.
it's true the 20.7mp sensor is intended only for xperias but sony is still supplying exmor rs sensors to other companies. also, i don't think they really intend to stop selling their sensors. that's their only hit product in recent years. there's even news that they will lower their sensor prices because samsung is about to offer theirs (16 mp variety) and it's cheaper.
Haha, I don't know if you've caught on yet, but I'm not really defending Sony, I'm merely giving a rational explanation against rabid haters AND fanboys as to why certain things are the way they are. You may believe that the R&D was wasted on the Z1 sensor, I guess you're entitled to that opinion, however the mere fact that it has competed (and won, in some cases) with the 1020 is a pretty solid testament to the effect of the R&D. I've also seen more positive sentiment for Sony than before the Z1 on those review sites (minus the comment sections). That's not to say that its all been positive, but looking back at Sony product reviews, you would NEVER find a place like Phone Arena commending Sony phones (though one could say there wasn't all that much to commend)
Also, just by the way, neither you nor I is "letting Sony get away with things" or "helping the company become better" - I'm pretty sure they're looking elsewhere for their guidance. However, if you subscribe to the idea of consumer sentiment trumping logistics and engineering, then I guess If some ignorant sap like me buys the phone because it satisfies 96% of my desires, and 3 others refuse to buy it because it doesn't satisfy 50% of theirs, Sony will change for the better. Keep fighting the good fight |
randomuser
Joined: Sep 13, 2011
Posts: > 500
PM |
Why are we even having this argument ? A few Esato members have seen retail/demo Z1 units in Sony stores and they all praise the display and report no issues with viewing angles.
So what's the point of even continuing with this discussion based on a few bad prototypes at IFA?  |
Rockarel
Joined: Jun 07, 2013
Posts: 38
PM |
Because a lot of us have gotten tired of having prototypes and pre-production firmware as the culprit for all ailments and we're bored. Probably. |
evilhomura89
Joined: Apr 24, 2007
Posts: 49
PM |
http://reviews.cnet.co.uk/mob[....]ony-xperia-z1-review-50012187/
reliable? |
randomuser
Joined: Sep 13, 2011
Posts: > 500
PM |
On 2013-09-12 06:32:38, Rockarel wrote:
Because a lot of us have gotten tired of having prototypes and pre-production firmware as the culprit for all ailments and we're bored. Probably.
So you mean all the people who saw the Z1 in stores with their own eyes are lying ? |
miromiromi
Joined: Jul 25, 2013
Posts: 481
PM |
On 2013-09-12 06:41:56, randomuser wrote:
On 2013-09-12 06:32:38, Rockarel wrote:
Because a lot of us have gotten tired of having prototypes and pre-production firmware as the culprit for all ailments and we're bored. Probably.
So you mean all the people who saw the Z1 in stores with their own eyes are lying ?
so you're offering an assurance that there's no xperia z redux here? what did sony fans say about the ugly xz display back then (me included)? it was just a prototype... well ... we really hope it's a different case this time. i don't think you can deny that none of all the review websites on the internet said the xz was that different from what was seen on CES.
even the photos of the alleged chinese z1 retail unit posted above look washed out.
[ This Message was edited by: miromiromi on 2013-09-12 05:58 ] | |
|
Access the forum with a mobile phone via esato.mobi
|
Posted: 2013-09-12 05:14
GH688, T28, T39 and T68
T68, T610, Z600, T630, K700, S700, V800, K750, S600, M600, S500, P1i, K850, X1 X10, Vivaz
