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Other bad news from Iraq. |
boto43
Joined: Nov 23, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Trnava-Nitra,Pardubice CSSR
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U changed the words weaknes and intelligence.
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gelfen
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Melbourne, Australia
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no i didn't - weakness was my own commentary. spain is not leaving because they have suddenly realised the morality or otherwise of their position. they are leaving due to fear of repurcussions.
in further news: al-Sadr has publicly confirmed it is acceptable for Shi'ite forces to kidnap civilians from the countries currently occupying Iraq.
is it just me or does that guy need a good kick in the head? 
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boto43
Joined: Nov 23, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Trnava-Nitra,Pardubice CSSR
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Yes,u r right mate.
But fear is a feeling that means u have still a common sense. I'm not sure if americans still have a common sense(mean only in IRQ)
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gelfen
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
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From: Melbourne, Australia
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nobody ever accused an american of common sense.
still, i think they are now obliged to ride this pony to the end (until the Iraqi govt takes control, including militarily).
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scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
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From: UK
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There is a worrying viewpoint creeping into the world that everything America does is wrong. Whilst l do not agree with a lot of what they do they are a force for good, what would the world be like if every tinpot dictator knew that he could do anything he wished because there was no one with the power or willingness to stop him?
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC |
gelfen
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Melbourne, Australia
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the road to hell his paved with good intentions....
but seriously, while i might be first in line to dis' the states (ugh, cultural warfare again!) you can probably tell from my posts that i am generally pro-coalition in this affair. the "evil america" ideoloogy is pedalled by religious extremists and ultra-left wing crackpots - the ideologically elite - who choose to grossly misrepresent the facts for their own gratification. unfortunately a lot of people fall for that crap, to their detriment, without looking at the facts.
their is no question that Saddam Hussein was an evil dictator oppressing the population of Iraq, and fostering an environment where terrorism could find a haven. the problem with the coalition invasion was that it occurred more than a decade too late. in between the two gulf wars, UN inspectors continually found evidence of WMD and biological warfare - and even now there is evidence to suggest that while the actual hardware of WMD and biologicals (including VX and mustard gas) may not have been present, the research was ongoing and the facilities to create them still existed. iraqi scientists and officials are keeping quiet on the matter for fear of prosecution for war crimes, even though they only acted through fear for their lives and families. in addition, missiles had been developed to carry warheads way over the 150km limit set by the UN back in 1991.
Saddam was well and truly in violation of the UN resolutions imposed upon him, and only outside intervention was going to stop him. it would have been nice if the UN had the stones to back up its resolutions rather than relying on the USA (again), but at least now countries like Libya, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan are beginning to reassess their positions on nuclear weapons and sheltering terrorists.
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[ This Message was edited by: gelfen on 2004-04-20 08:49 ] |
scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
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From: UK
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Israel is in violation of numerous UN resolutions yet the U.S. pours billions of dollars in aid into Israel, provides them with military hardware and technological support. Do we see the U.S. sending in troops to make Israel comply with UN resolutions? No, we most certainly do not. This sort of double standard causes a great deal of resentment in the Arab world, on the surface it would appear that the U.S. is willing to attack Arab nations at the slightest provocation, whilst continuing to support Israel, which flouts international laws it deems contrary to its national interest.
Israel will not make peace with the Palestinians and the Palestinians will not make peace with Israel. The reason for this is the U.S., continued support of Israel means that Israel will remain technologically, militarily and economically superior to the Arab countries and therefore provides them no incentive for a lasting peace agreement. Conversely, continued U.S. support for Israel galvanises Arab support behind the Palestinians because of the view (correctly) that they are the under dogs and stand very little chance of effectively opposing Israeli attacks or incursions.
The U.S. is constantly accused of imposing its will on others, however, those very same people who criticise U.S. action are the very same who denounce evil dictators and human rights abuses. I would love to know what it is they would like done to remove these people from power, perhaps they think asking them nicely might work? Then there is the constant repetition of past mistakes and disasters from these people, every U.S. military action in compared to Vietnam, every tin pot dictator who ever received support from the U.S. (or other Western nations) are used as examples of Western hypocrisy and arrogance (which is true), and every Western effort to curb the spread of terrorism is compared to Orwellian nightmares of 'Big Brother' police states. The sad thing about these comparisons are that they can be very true, and I am most certainly not denying that, they are indeed important points and should be made, however, what use doe sit do drudging it up constantly? Will reminding everyone that America, Britain, France, etc supported Saddam in the 80's actually do anything to solve the problem? People who make these points very often have no real argument other than anti-Americanism.
The sad fact of the matter is that we live in a very dangerous world, the Western nations have not experienced direct warfare for almost sixty years and very few people are alive today who remember the last time Britain faced invasion, or France was overrun, or Germany's cities being bombed, or Russian troops fighting titanic battle sin the East, or U.S. marines storming island sin the Pacific or atoms bombs falling on Japan. We take our safe, peaceful, secure and privileged lives for granted here in the West; we have the view that wars are events that only happen in distant countries and involve Arabs or Africans. We sit with our cups of tea watching the news and groan as we are told of yet another war somewhere we have never heard of, we sip our tea and then we change the channel.
Perhaps the left-wing liberal brigade wouldn't be so condemning of the U.S. and the other Western nations if they actually had to experience life under regimes such as Saddam's, Mugabe's, Jon Il Kim's, etc Many of these anti-Americans forget that the very reason they are able to say whatever they like is because we live in free and democratic countries. We enjoy freedom, a freedom that millions have sacrificed themselves for, a freedom that ensures our children are brought up without hating people based on skin colour, sexuality, gender, age, religion, etc, a freedom that means every single one of us can strive for our dreams, a freedom that brings us great wealth and prosperity, a freedom that grants us advanced technology, and most importantly a freedom that ensures we live in peace.
If I had to choose between accepting 'Americanisms' and living under Nazi tyranny or Communist oppression then I know, which one I would choose, there is simply no contest. I am most certainly not the biggest fan of the U.S., but I do appreciate the fact that U.S. soldiers are giving their lives to ensure we live in peace, just as I am equally appreciative of the British troop’s efforts and men and women from any country who fight evil and terror wherever they find it. What is often forgotten, in the world today, is that some wars ARE necessary, very very few I will grant you, but still there are some. WWII was a war that had to be fought; at the risk of sounding overly dramatic, WWII was a battle between good and evil, a battle to decide the fate of all humanity, a battle, that if lost be the Allied Forces, would have resulted in a dark age spreading across the globe, in which murder, torture, slavery and evil were accepted norms, taught to young children in school and enshrined as being glorious acts. Each and every single one of us should be thankful every day that humanity is at heart a kind race who abhor evil and that so many men and women were courageous enough to take up arms and fight against insurmountable odds, sacrificing their own lives to defeat the greatest evil mankind has ever known.
The battle we face today is no different, if anything it is infinitely worse. Once again the forces of good are arrayed against an evil that seeks to take away our freedoms, seeks to replace civilisation with barbarity, seeks to kill as many innocent people as possible and ultimately seeks to plunge the world into the darkness from whence they came. Unfortunately the world is filled with foolish do-gooders intent of opposing anything that does fit in with their rosy picture of how things should be. These are our greatest enemy, we have seen them before and we see them again. Appeasers and extreme liberals intent on opposing any attempt to fight the evil with which we are now faced, the War on Terror is not just an American struggle, it is a war that every decent human being on this planet should, nay, must take upon themselves to fight with all their strength. The enemy we now face is dangerous indeed, they hide in caves, they mass weapons and money to fight us at every turn, they seek to build or buy weapons on mass destruction and we have so few ways of hitting back at them; the greatest weapon that we possess in this struggle in unity, by opposing the enemy as a united front and with every intention of fighting on till the end times they have no strength over us.
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC |
BobaFett
Joined: Jan 06, 2004
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From: Kamino (wish it would be Lund)
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if israel kills, its defend. if palestina does the same, its terrorism.
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scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
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From: UK
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@bobafett
With respect, your posts in this thread seem to have been designed to do little other than provoke comments and reactions from people, without actually providing a coherent viewpoint of your own.
Both Israelis and Palestinians are as bad as each other in this conflict. Bulldozing houses and bombing civilians counts as terrorism in my book. Equally, what is the logic in criticising Israel for killing Palestinian bombers and fanatics when Israelis are being blown to bits as they sit on a bus or have lunch in a cafe? Should Israel sit back and do nothing as suicide bombers massacre innocent people? Of course they have a right to defend themselves, I would expect Britain to hit back as hard as possible if anyone attacked us, if you let someone get away with hitting you then they will continue to do so.
Israel isn't an evil nation and they certainly don't deliberately set out to cause pain and sufferring; suicide bombers who fail in their mission, but who end up badly wounded are cared for by Israeli doctors and nurses, when many would call for them to be left to die. Equally, Palestinians have no wish to see their children blowing themselves up or Israeli planes bombing their towns and villages because a group of fanatics decide to take it upon themselves to propogate a war they cannot win.
I am aware that your english isn't that good (as you have previously said), but perhaps you could try to explain your position as it seems rather ambigous to me.
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC |
BobaFett
Joined: Jan 06, 2004
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From: Kamino (wish it would be Lund)
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@scotsboyuk its my opinion. i am not heading for the hurt or provocate anybody, thats the way i see it. the building of the famous wall in israel, the behavour of the settlers etc. i never been there personally, but all i see and read in the medias is the fact that israel is always the punished one. they wanted to live there after 100s of years again, and i dont doubt for a nation to exist without a country is unbeliveable hard. but what was they hoping for? that the arabian ppl will welcome them and give up aerias without any reason? each nations sufferred for many years long, but not of each want to end it as i see. as montecuccoli sad once: war is the continue of politic with other equipments. but they never had good political and diplomatical relationship with each other, the only link is the hate. but if its allowed for the one, let it allowe for the other aswell. they wanna fight, let them fight. if they like it this way. adult ppl and they dont even know or remember the basic what they fight for. sad and naiv behavour.
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boto43
Joined: Nov 23, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Trnava-Nitra,Pardubice CSSR
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Hey boys,stop it pls! Too many secret agents has been seeing what u have been texting. Anyway this thread is about kidnapping of ppl in IRQ and not 4 quarrels.
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BobaFett
Joined: Jan 06, 2004
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From: Kamino (wish it would be Lund)
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@boto43 thought we live in democracy and in a world of free opinions  i got your point. you are right @scotsboyuk its his thread, he is the referee. lets go back to the hostage story. deal? ( ps: do enjoyed the last days here, thx )
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scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
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From: UK
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@bobafett
Well we appear to be in agreement then, to some extent. Perhaps the Hungarian media portrays the Israelis as always being the victims, but here in Britain there have been a good many documentaries, articles and news reports that reflect both sides of the conflict. There are few people in the UK who have overhwelming sympathy for either side, in fact I would wager that most people in the UK are sick of hearing about the Middle East.
Where we have the problem is the constant attention both sides get, perhaps if the world just ignored them for a chnange then they would realise that nobody outside their tiny little piece of the planet actually cares who owns the land, or who did what to whom, it is reminiscent of children fighting.
I don't understand why the U.S. doesn't use all the resources it gives Israel to round up all the fanatics, extremists and militans on both sides and deposit them on a desert island together. They could then be armed to the teeth and allowed to fight it out leaving the vast majority of Israelis and Palestinians, who don't want to scrape their children from the pavement, to live their lives in peace.
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"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC
[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2004-04-20 23:26 ] |
BobaFett
Joined: Jan 06, 2004
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From: Kamino (wish it would be Lund)
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@scotsboyuk u see, our countries have different history.... and past.... but on a weird way thats the best reason to share opinions. anyway, lets go back to the point @boto43 asked for.
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boto43
Joined: Nov 23, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Trnava-Nitra,Pardubice CSSR
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I am just curious to know how many hostages are still in the hands of Iraqis.
I know that 3 Czechs were released,any Japanese were released ,many Russians were released too,one man from Italy was even
killed by Iraqis rebels.
How I can see from the thread it would be very interesting to establish
thread - Israeli - Palestinian problem or What have started 2.Gulf war.
Thanks guys u r  | |
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Posted: 2004-04-20 05:56
