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Other bad news from Iraq. |
scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
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From: UK
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@bobafett
I have to disagree with you old boy, Saddam's dictatorial regime has everything to do with it. If Saddam had been allowed to continue in power then it is quite likely that he would have developed WMDs, if he didn't already have them, this in turn would have presented a very serious problem for the entire region as Saddam's state was a secular one, hence my surprise at the US accusing Saddam of having ties with bin Laden, who is a religious fanatic.
If Iraq turned itself into a Middle Eastern 'superpower' through WMDs then in reality neither the US nor anyone else could have realistically opposed Saddam without incurring massive casualties and the possible destruction and\or contamination of large tracts of the Middle East, resulting in global economic chaos due to the damage to the oil supplies.
Saddam had no real empathy for the Palestinians, they were merely a tool he could use to illicit support and sympathy throughout the Arab world and a means of opposing both the US and Israel, which had previously attacked an Iraqi nuclear reactor.
I would still like to know what your proposal would be to tackle Saddam if not through direct force. In a similar vein I would like to know what you think should be done about other 'rogue' states e.g. North Korea.
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC | |
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BobaFett
Joined: Jan 06, 2004
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From: Kamino (wish it would be Lund)
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think the truth is somewhere between us. but nobody should tell me, that the us government was worried of the iraqi nation... thanks the us politic we got there a new circus. and where is saddam? think we have 2 options. 1. they dont have him and its the same lie, that the us soldiers catched him ( as we know, the kurds got him and handled over to the americans... ) or 2. they dont dare to show him to avoid more trouble. he still got there a lot of fans. oh, they just cannot leave this cowboy behavour: first shoot, then ask!
btw i almost read the article u suggested. nice, nice... what is the main reason they are there? iraq is second rich country in oil. they need it, cos they have to secure the future in oil biz. and they wanna weak eu in the same time. wish to have the un hq in europe in the next future.
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scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
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The EU isn't a major threat to the U.S.; in fact the U.S. needs Europe to combat the real threat to U.S. power, China. China is already a major military power and is growing as an economic power too. Unless there was a United States of Europe (I shudder at that very thought) then Europe can never present any real challenge to U.S. global dominance.
Iraq may have huge oil reserves but the U.S. (or anyone else for that matter) has no real method for controlling those reserves once they give up direct control of Iraq. A similar situation can be seen in the energy crisis of the 1970's when Arab states effectively held the world to ransom over oil.
To say that America doesn't care about what happens to other nations isn't true; it is in America's own interests to make sure other nations are governed by good leaders who make their country prosper. The U.S. gets its huge wealth from trade with other nations, despotic overlords’ intent on military build-ups and wars weaken the international trading system and challenge the very heart of free trade.
The Al Qeada fighters in Iraq don't really care about Saddam; he is just a useful figurehead they can use in opposing the U.S. The U.S. is a force for good in this world, maybe they don't always do what is right and perhaps they do look out for themselves a lot of the time, however, they have the capacity to conquer most, if not all of this planet, yet they don't. On more than one occasion American troops have given their lives to ensure that democracy and freedom triumph over despotic and evil regimes. Can you imagine what the world would be like if the U.S.S.R. had won the Cold War, or if Nazi Germany had been victorious in WWII? The world as we know it would be a police state, ruled by autocratic figures enjoying lives of luxury, whilst millions toiled to maintain the system and still millions more were sent to gulags or in the case of the Nazis, exterminated.
During WWII Ghandi acknowledged that British control of India was a better thing than Nazi control of India, despite the fact that he opposed the British government and wanted Britain to quite India. He was wise enough to realise that although Britain might direct Indian resources to suit British needs that the British were not inherently evil. Under British rule Indians were allowed freedom of travel, freedom to practice their religions (eventually) and education (Ghandi himself trained as a lawyer under the British system (ironic that he should then be the architect of Britain's exit from India)). The U.S. was founded on British ideals of liberty and freedom and they carry those ideals today, they might not be perfect, but they are infinitely better than many others I could mention.
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC |
BobaFett
Joined: Jan 06, 2004
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From: Kamino (wish it would be Lund)
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i wouldnt call democracy to leave my fingerprint at the border of a country when i wanna enter it. the sowietunion was forbidden to enter the country for a lot of ppl. that was more democratic on some way then this option... i do wish that europe and asia will represent the balance in the world.
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scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
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Your point seems a little confused at best. I think security measures are a good thing, especially if they will save lives. I have no idea why not being allowed to enter a country can be called democratic when you make a point that very much less stringent border control policies are somehow undemocratic. Perhaps I am missing your point?
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC |
Sammy_boy
Joined: Mar 31, 2004
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From: Staffordshire, United Kingdom
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@scotsboyuk and @bobafett:
Very interesting debate you're having; I think you both make good points.
@bobafett:
Unfortunately it's going to take one hell of a lot to challenge the US's position as a global hyperpower, and the only way European countries are going to be able to do this is as a superstate, which many (myself included) would think is a step too far for Europe to take.
There's a thread elsewhere entitled something like 'what are your favourite brands?', and looking through the posts, most of the brands people mention are US brands. Their culture, debates on how good/bad/indifferent they are aside, does appear to be being pushed on the rest of the world, even if inadvertantly, through films, advertising, product placement, etc. etc. Could one of the reasons (aside from the war/Israel) be why some of these people dislike/hate the USA be because they see their way of life as being under threat from them, and be having American culture and brands 'forced' upon them? I'm talking about Al-Qaeda as well as those in Iraq If they're not one and the same.
Apologies if this is off topic a bit!  Just thought I'd chuck another perspective in and see what people thought!
"All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing" - Edmund Burke
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scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
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From: UK
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Very interesting indeed and I agree with you to a certain extent. The same principle has been seen throughout history e.g. the British Empire spread British values and ideas throughout the world, such as a common language (English), sports (cricket, golf, etc), British principles on government (the parliamentary system), British ideas on liberty, ideas on free trade, British companies and brands, etc
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"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC
[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2004-04-20 07:34 ] |
Sammy_boy
Joined: Mar 31, 2004
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From: Staffordshire, United Kingdom
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I have to admit to feeling a bit like American culture is encroaching myself! I always have a bit of a moan (usually to myself!) whenever I come across US spelling (e.g. color instead of colour) in the UK, most PC software packages come set to US english as default (assuming there's an option to change it to UK English at all). There are Starbucks appearing all over the country, and you already can't move for McDonalds. I can only imagine how it must feel in another country with a totally different way of life to here or the US, when over the space of a few years Hollywood movies.... sorry, films are showing everywhere, fast food places appear in every town, and role models are suddenly square-jawed Americans shooting the bad guys and getting the girl at the end and living happily ever after. I'd be pretty mad, and am I guess in a way. But, and here's the difference - I won't take out my frustrations by shooting US citizens or blowing up landmarks, killing thousands.
"All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing" - Edmund Burke
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BobaFett
Joined: Jan 06, 2004
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From: Kamino (wish it would be Lund)
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@sammy check my brands ;-) @scotsboyuk now i am on wap, so no long speaches from me. My fear is the next country that the us will attack. Dont know where and when. Hope the us nation wont learn in the practice what war means. Cos we in eu did!
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boto43
Joined: Nov 23, 2003
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From: Trnava-Nitra,Pardubice CSSR
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@boba, u don't know it. It should be Iran or Syria.
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BobaFett
Joined: Jan 06, 2004
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From: Kamino (wish it would be Lund)
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yes, it could be any of them. but do hope iraq was the last one. however, it will take a long time in iraq to manage the conflict. think even years...
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gelfen
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
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From: Melbourne, Australia
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the USA is the greatest practitioner of "cultural warfare" the world has known. the innate arrogance of the residents (in general) coupled with the proliferation of electronic media has made american culture the single most pervading influence on the world.
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BobaFett
Joined: Jan 06, 2004
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From: Kamino (wish it would be Lund)
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Many counuries tried to rule the world in the history of mankind. All of them failed.
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gelfen
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
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From: Melbourne, Australia
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in many instances that was because they weren't aware of just how big the world was when they started out. of course, that didn't stop them ruling the "known world" (Alexander the Great springs to mind).
anyway, that is a false analogy for the USA. they don't want to rule the world - they may want a degree of control, but not to rule it. to rule the world would be too difficult and far too expensive. they would rather impose their value system to ensure most of the world is in a position to trade and exert their influence economically.
so far the americans have maintained their pledge hand over control of Iraq to the provisional council on June 30 this year. of course the troops will stay longer at the behest of the council because Iraq has no standing army to speak of at the moment, and they will be needed to "keep the peace". if coalition troops do leave before some degree of civil order has been re-established it will be a matter of weeks, if not days, before the UN is forced to march in (and in all likelihood many of the same units will be used anyway).
it's pretty plain to see that as Iraq moves closer to self-rule, the extremist fringe gets more rabid and takes more drastic measures to create civil disorder and unrest.
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gelfen
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Melbourne, Australia
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the US have just announced a deal for a ceasefire around Fallujah - involving joint coalition/iraqi patrols, shorter curfew hours and over US $77 million in aid once hostilities end.
meanwhile, Sadr (the head of the Mehdi Army) has ordered Shi'ite forces to stop attacking Spanish troops after the announcement they were going to witdraw from Iraq, while also urging other coatlition forces to follow Spain's example (read WEAKNESS).
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Posted: 2004-04-17 19:22
