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Macidonia Is greece |
Redback
Joined: Sep 20, 2004
Posts: 32
From: Sydney
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LOL is this guy gelfen for real?
You don't wanna get into this, you don't care, there's no way you can win this argument cause I'm Greek etc etc then you post more missleading info?!
Not only the aristocracy were considered Hellenic but ALL Macedonians were considered their same kin. Yes there are historians who believe the opposite but there are even more historians who believe the turh. So which ones are right and why do you choose to believe the Slav version? Politically and militarily allied with Ancient greece? WTF you on about they WERE part of Ancient Greece.
Everything in Ancient Macedonia is currently found in the state of Greece, in Ancient greek. Sure the Macedonians had their Greek dialect but let me tell you as someone who speaks greek practically every different region of Greece has its own dialect, just like the Ancient times.
Yes believe it or not, MEGAS ALEXANDROS spread his OWN culture around the conquered lands not because it was the premier culture because it was his own. There are countless qoutes about Alexander quoting his own Greekness. He burnt down babylon(?) in retaliation of past Persian destruction of Athens - far from Pella, Macedonia, which is his birthplace.
So you reckon the Slavic-"Macedonian" language is not entirely Slavic?! LMFAO! Why don't you ask a Bulgarian if he understands "Macedonian"?
And finally, you think you know Greek history from reading FYROM propoganda sites or your Skopyian mates probably told you this one... Mate let me assure you, Northern Greece has A-L-W-A-Y-S been reffered to as MAKETHONIA(Macedonia). I should know my dad is from Northern Greece. I have old school textbooks with Macedonia being in Northern Greece printed way before 1988. How come my dad, and granddad know that Macedonia is in Northern Greece(NOT North OF Greece) and always has been in Northern Greece. The Greek government OFFICIALLY named the province Macedonia in 1988 but it's always been Macedonia. Just like Uluru & Ayers Rock.
Gelfen it's obvious your anti-Greekness clouds your judgment, You sound a bit smart so do the smart thing and look at BOTH sides' argument not just 50% of the story. You're probably the typical Aussie who laughed for years at Greece's preparations of the olympics then had a rude shock when they were so successful. Oh wait, apparently nobody went to them lol always have to find something to bag the greeks lol.
Anyway anybody reading this and who actually wants to find out the truth and what the conflict is about... I haven't got time to post all details but these websites are good because they just state facts, historicall evidence and common sense.
http://www.real.macedonia.gr/
http://www.greece.org/themis/macedonia/
http://www.macedonia.com/
Of course look at the Slavic FYROM sites like Gelfen has as well to understand their ridiculous arguments and then believe what you want to believe. Your ignorance is your problem not mine. At least LOOK at ALL FACTS, EVIDENCE before you make yourself an expert in this subject.
Krubach- Olla, No,Greece does not want any land from our tiny neigbour to the North. All we want for Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia to do is to stop using the name Macedonia because it's already a Greek name and has been used by Greeks for thousands of years. They are not Greeks in FYROM they are Slavs. FYROM was called "Vardaska" until about 1944 when Tito renamed it Macedonia in order to claim Greek land in the future. in Imagine if Spain breaks up into several little states and a new state next to Portugal named them selves Lisbon and tried to claim Lisbons history as their own? I Know, stupid isn't it!!
[ This Message was edited by: Redback on 2005-08-31 14:15 ] | |
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Krubach
Joined: Dec 05, 2002
Posts: > 500
From: Sunny Portugal! :)
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Bullseye!!!
I said it was politics... 
[addsig] |
Sammy_boy
Joined: Mar 31, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Staffordshire, United Kingdom
PM, WWW
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.....And we have us a potential flame war!!
It's nearly as emotive as smoking, speaking of which.... think I might go have a crafty one 
"All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing" - Edmund Burke
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gelfen
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Melbourne, Australia
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@krubach: i know - which is why i don't really want a part of it. unfortunately i also have a tendency to try correcting obvious fallacies (not everything redback said falls in that category, but more on that later).
@sammy: no flaming from me 
for the record - i am not anti anything except anti-ignorance and anti-intolerance.
i will respond properly to redback's post later.
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Redback
Joined: Sep 20, 2004
Posts: 32
From: Sydney
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You guys are geniuses! How did you figure out that it's politics? LOL no shit, obviously it's about politics. What we have is a people with no identity trying to steal another people's identity & history. People are so missinformed about the Macedonian issue, they think Greece is the aggressor and wants to invade FYROM to take more land.
Nothing could be further from the truth! Greece is one of the most pacifist, peaceful nation on earth. Greece could invaded FYROM anytime it wanted but it has no desire to. We don't want their land, we don't want their people. On the contrary, FYROM believe Greece is occupying their land! Land which has been Hellenic since before Christ!They are a mixture of Serbs,Bulgarians & Albanians. Greece is actually helping FYROM and is their biggest investors. And all Greece asks for in return is to stop using the Hellenic name Macedonia and stop teaching false history in schools about territorial claims against Greece.
Gelfen why are you so interested in the issue if you have no Greek or Slav heritage? Are you studying history? If you're a nuetral person then you have to look at both sides. So before you respong, READ the links I gave earlier. Understand Greece's position on this issue. And stop posting lies about Greece.
Yes Greece recognises its minorities. It's a Muslim minoirty in Thrace numbering around 300,000. They are mostly Turkish origin, but there are also Gypie Muslims and a sizeable Pomak Muslim population. So they are recognised as Greek Muslims, not a minoirty. The 1923 Treaty of Lusuane dictates this. Other than them there are immigrants, people who have gone to Greece recently but not enough to establish a minority. Greece was around 98% Greek until recently but an influx of legal & illegal Albanians has probably brought it down to 92% Greek.
Oh also FYROM propagandists claim there are millions of "Slav Macedonians" misstreated in the Greek province of Macedonia. So being the founder of democracy, Greece has even let them "misstreated" Macedonians form & vote for their own party. Last count was 5000 in the last election. What's so unbelievable is not really the fact that such laughable claims on (Greek)Macedonia are happening, it's that there are people out there who actually believe them!! |
djole89
Joined: Jul 26, 2004
Posts: 428
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Quote:
| FYROM was called "Vardaska" until about 1944 when Tito renamed it Macedonia |
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I must correct you on this one mate. Before WWII there was not Macedonian people between Slavcs and their territory (today FYR Macedonia) was repute as South Serbia, and people were repute as Serbs. Josip Broz Tito gave them their nationality, and I don't agree with that decision.
Everithing else that you said is correct.
PS: Sorry for my bad English.
[addsig] |
tranquil
Joined: Dec 15, 2001
Posts: > 500
From: Oslo, Norway
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I just can't believe this topic has taken off like this?
Macidonian22 Started a topic with nothing more than 3 words and never returned to discuss the matter. To me this is a stirer who just post once to never return.
I honestly see no reason to keep this topic open?
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Redback
Joined: Sep 20, 2004
Posts: 32
From: Sydney
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Quote:
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I must correct you on this one mate. Before WWII there was not Macedonian people between Slavcs and their territory (today FYR Macedonia) was repute as South Serbia, and people were repute as Serbs. Josip Broz Tito gave them their nationality, and I don't agree with that decision.
Everithing else that you said is correct.
PS: Sorry for my bad English.
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Yes I know it was part of Serbia & just called South Serbia, but the region was called Vardaska or some spelling variant. Sorry, should've put that part in. And yes Tito's decision to rename South Serbia into "Macedonia" and invent a "new" nationalitywas meant for future land claims against Greece. Tito was actually Croatian anyway so he wouldn't care about splitting Serbia.
P.S. Your English is fine |
djole89
Joined: Jul 26, 2004
Posts: 428
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Tito was very good while he was alive. But when he died, he left very unstable country. He done everithing to rise Croatians when country fall apart (everybody knew that it would happen sooner or later). He gave Croatians sea, he shrinked Serbian country (he gave Serbian territories to Bosnia and some to Croatia), he made Macedonian nationality, he gave Kosovo its autonomy wich Albanians used to take it over slowly.....
I bet he is laughing from hell now.....
...but that is not topic here.....
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[ This Message was edited by: djordje1yu on 2005-09-05 20:52 ] |
PsYcHeDeLiX
Joined: Sep 29, 2005
Posts: 0
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I can personally acknowledge that Macedonia is not a "Greek" name. The meaning of the name constitutes of an ancient linguistic form unique to Macedonians, their region and heritage. Mak-e-don is verbally formed by the words Maekin-dom which means "Motherland" even in present Macedonian. Even the currency used, "Den-ar" clearly means: a day's earning for work. Maeka, the word, meaning mother, is used all through the so called Slav tongue. Many Russian educators, such as my professor would gladly accept that the language which they speak today, is in fact a derivative from the ancient language spoken by Alexander of Makedon and his dynasty. Much of the linguistics have circled towards Northern Europe and Asia (Himalayan Regions) forming the common so called 'Slav' language. In that time of politics, Greece the name, or even an empire for that matter, did not exist. It's a modern concept of the union of provinces, and has no place in ancient significance. This is just scratching the surface of such relevance to this much debated topic. I am currently studying at the Institute of Historical and Philosophical Sciences - University of Toronto. What I learn here exhibits a true nature of Historical Science, and not ignorance. I have both, Greek and Macedonian friends, they always bring this political debate to the table, however it's merely a joke to them. I decided to research this much debated topic and I still haven't found conclusive evidence to back the extremities of both arguing parties. Through time, propaganda has fabricated much of what is written, and passed on by oral tradition today. Greek propaganda has the upper hand as the Greeks were freed of Turkish rule before the Macedonians. Their freedom has be founded the Greek nation a head start in this race of rebuilding what was. Allot of factors are at play, I am only stating what is relevant to modern time, I would gladly like to share my findings with others interested to discuss this topic. I'm not looking for ignorance as such displayed by RedBack, but am seeking insightful discussions like gelfen has portrayed.
= )
[ This Message was edited by: PsYcHeDeLiX on 2005-09-29 09:17 ] |
BlueQuill
Joined: Jul 29, 2005
Posts: 419
From: India
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GWB is OBL.
This message was posted from a Nokia |
Redback
Joined: Sep 20, 2004
Posts: 32
From: Sydney
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Actually Psychedelix the word MACEDONIA means TALL ONE in Ancient Greek. How on earth could you be a professor and NOt know a simple fact like that? IF you have studied it like you say you have then why would you disregard actual facts like this one and believe the Slav version?
Shit, if you really do what you say you do than it's scary to think that there's ignorant people like you in Canada teaching your own version of events because you have read 50% of the debate. But continue living in your own world and keep turning a blind eye to the truth. I haven't got time to educate people like you nor am in a position to debate with a "professor".
Why don't you actually READ the links I gave in the earlier posts and debunk those facts if you can.
Here's some of them again in case you missed them.
http://www.macedonia.com/english/history/
http://www.macedonia.info/
http://truth.macedonia.gr/
Since you are very interested in the issue then I'm sure you'll thank me for those sites to expand your limited knowledge. Or maybe you already know the Greek facts but choose to ignore them to believe the Slav claims. Which makes you just biased & close-minded.
So just look at the sites and give me your answers.
[ This Message was edited by: Redback on 2005-09-30 00:48 ] |
gelfen
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Melbourne, Australia
PM |
i think the problem is those links be just as easily dismissed as greek propaganda. this is a no-win debate, much like the israeli-palestince conflict, because the truth has become so obscured by politics as to be unrecognisable.
at the risk of sparking another diatribe, i find it interesting that when under turkish rule the area now contested as macedonia was recognised even by the sultan as a seperate nation and political entity under his rule. this is verifiable from several historical documents.
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Redback
Joined: Sep 20, 2004
Posts: 32
From: Sydney
PM |
What was the population distribution of Macedonia, the
Republic of Skopje, and parts of Bulgaria in the years of Otto-
man rule?
In 1912 Greeks and Bulgars living in the Ottoman Empire agreed on
the number of members to the Ottoman Parliament each group would
select. It was agreed that in each Vilaet (Regions of the Otto-
man Empire) the number of Greek and Bulgarian representatives
would be as follows.
Vilaet of Adrianoypoli Greeks 8 Bulgarians 1
" of Thessaloniki and
Monastirion Greeks 10 Bulgarians 5
" of Cossyphopedio Greeks 0 Bulgarians 2
(Kosovo)
No references to other Slavs, nor any protests of any kind, were
filed after the elections. It can thus be assumed that the
Greek:Bulgar as well as Greek:Slav proportion of the population
in these vilaets was reflected in this arrangement.
Other (mainly of non-greek origin) sources from which one can
draw conclusions on the population of various ottoman ruled
areas are:
An Italian, Amadore Virgili, in "La questiona roma rumeliota"
(1907, page 107) gave the following statistics for the population
of the two vilaets of Thessaloniki and Monastirion.
Thess:Greeks 362,000, Turks 423,500, Bulgars 198,000, Serbs 1400
Monast:Greeks 280,000, Turks 223,000, Bulgars 143,000, Serbs 6070
A German General [Von Der Golt in "Balkanwirren und ihre grunde"
(1904)] who served in Turkey and organised the Turkish Army
claimed the following statistics for the two vilaets:
Muslims 730,000, Greeks 580,000, Bulgars 266,000, Serbs 19,000,
Jews 60,000
Therefore a statement that Macedonia was predominantly "slavic"
(with slavs like the ones residing in nowadays Skopje) seems to
be incorrect. Nowadays Macedonia in Greece included parts of the
two vilaets of Thessaloniki and Monasterio. Parts of the
Monasterio vilaet today belong to Albania and Republic of SKopje.
Parts of the Thessaloniki vilaet to Rep. of Skopje and Bulgaria.
There was a third vilaet, that of Skopje extending north in
today's southern Serbia.
There are various other statistics that more or less agree with
these figures.
There are also figures given by 4 writers that are quite strange.
According to the following
author there were:
Goptchevitch Greeks 201,140 Bulgar 57,600 Serbs 2,048,320
V. Kantcheff Greeks 225,152 Bulgar 1,184,036 Serbs 700
M. Brancoff Greeks 190,047 Bulgar 1,172,136 Serbs -
Zolotovich Greeks - Bulgar 1,334,583 Serbs -
It is not very difficult to guess the nationalities of the 4
writers.
Other figures on the population of these two vialets (also extra-
polated from the number of schools and pupilsa attending these
schools) are the following ones (some of the authors counted only
specific groups of people such as Bulgars and/or Greeks).
(figures are in thousands)
Gr: Greeks Bu:Bulgars Se:Serbs
Speliotopoulos Gr 731 Bu 232
Fokas " 636 " 348
Virgilli " 642 " 341 Se 16.5
Nikolaides " 655 " 332 " 22.8
VOn der Golts " 580 " 266 " 19
V. Colocotroni " 572 " 253
Ecum. Patr * " 650 " 332 " 12
Hilmi Pasa ** " 664 " 391 " 30
* Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople.
** Hilmi Pasa, Turkish Governor(??).
After the population exchanges in the 1920s, ~380,000 Turks left
Greece and 538,253 Greeks came to Macedonia from Asia Minor. In
1919 in the treaty of Neuilly it was decided that the Bulgarian
population residing in Greece would immigrate to Bulgaria and the
Greek population living in Bulgaria would immigrate to Greece by
1924. The time limit was extended to 1932 after through an appli-
cation of the Bulgarian Government which the then Greek Govern-
ment accepted. Approximately 66,000 Bulgars left Greece at that
time according to a report of the League of Nations (the precur-
sor of the United Nations). About ~52,000 Bulgars left Greece.
Given that the 1928 Greek census gives for Macedonia a population
of 1,412,477 this means that there were close to 850,000 Greeks
in Macedonia before the arrival of the Greeks from Asia Minor.
Considering the annual population increases one can conclude
that an estimate of at least 660,000 for the Greeks in the two
vilaets of Monasterio and Thessaloniki (and of Macedonia) is a
quite accurate one.
Source: http://history.macedonia.gr/faq.htm#21
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Redback
Joined: Sep 20, 2004
Posts: 32
From: Sydney
PM |
The Rosetta Stone
What is the Rosetta Stone??
The Rosetta Stone is a slab of black basalt carved with an inscription in three alphabets. It was discovered in 1799 near the town of Rosetta in Egypt. While working to restore old fortresses for Napoleon's invading army, Captain Pierre-François Bouchard uncovered the stone and recognized it as a valuable linguistic clue.
The Rosetta Stone was originally carved in 196 BC, during the reign of Pharaoh Ptolemy V. The stone is typical of the period, in which complimentary inscriptions praising the Pharaoh for his virtues were common. Because Egypt had recently been conquered by the Greeks, the Rosetta Stone's inscription was written in both Egyptian and Greek. The Egyptian portion was written in both demotic -- a type of common, everyday alphabet -- and the more ancient and formal hieroglyphs.
The Ptolemic pharaohs were all descendants of General Lagus, friend and ally of conqueror Alexander the Great. Therefore, they were ethnically Greek rather than Egyptian. At the time of the Rosetta Stone's inscription, both Greek and Egyptian languages were used in Egypt. Interestingly, Alexander the Great is buried in the Egyptian city named for him, Alexandria.
When Egypt became a vassal state of the Roman Empire, ruled by a Roman governor, hieroglyphs fell into disuse, and by the fourth century AD the writing system was lost. At the time that the Rosetta Stone was rediscovered, hieroglyphs were indecipherable. Some people even thought they weren't a language at all, but some iconic form of decoration. With the Rosetta Stone, it was possible to decipher the demotic from the Greek, and then the hieroglyphs from the demotic.
The Rosetta Stone was translated and deciphered by Jean François Champollion, a French linguist of amazing ability. He began work on the translation in 1808, when he was eighteen, and in 1822 published his translation of the Rosetta Stone. His breakthrough was in realizing that the images that made up hieroglyphs were used not only as pictures to represent ideas, but also as letters that represented specific sounds, much like American Sign Language. Thus words that did not have a pictorial representation in the alphabet could be spelled out. Proper names of individuals were spelled out in this way, and names were differentiated from other text by being enclosed in a rectangle with rounded corners, called a cartouche.
Once the Rosetta Stone had led to the translation of hieroglyphs, all the inscriptions in the myriad tombs and monuments of ancient Egypt were once more possible to read.
Source: http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-the-rosetta-stone.htm
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Posted: 2005-08-31 15:03
