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Nokia Lumia 1020 |
false_morel
Joined: Feb 24, 2010
Posts: 375
PM |
On 2013-10-22 18:26:47, cu015170 wrote:
This would help the situation for sure..
But they should still improve the post processing on the phone, they are not extracting the maximum out of the sensor.
RAW means that post processing doesn't matter. You process it yourself.
Lightroom support is needed though. I don't think Nokia will be releasing their own RAW software. And even so, it's hard to convince anyone of the usefulness of RAW if not supported by standalone professional software.
About pulling the max out of the sensor, the 1020 is already the champion of detail/noise confirmed by professional testing.
Nokia MUST address though the color rendering, and their poor auto WB.
And if they develop a new set of algorithms for boosting the noise/detail levels then it can only mean good news. The 1020 will then be in a league of its own.
Best IQ. Full manual exposure and focus control. Smart Cam. Refocus and other useful tricks at the go. Camera grip with tripod mount and extra battery. Amazingly designed UI with speed and good response as well. Nothing comes close. |
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false_morel
Joined: Feb 24, 2010
Posts: 375
PM |
So from what I read, Nokia is changing their policy about their image processing algorithms from the Lumia.
And this includes color, sharpening, and noise.
Now this can only mean good news. We will have a full idea when the Lumia 1520 gets released. But already got a peek from the first released photos which showed standard coloring, and less sharpening.
All they need to do is really make the coloring same as the iPhone. I think since the iPhone 4s, the Apple got the best color rendering on a cameraphone. Not neutral and totally washed out. Not punchy and boosted up. Just standard.
As to sharpening, it may work well for landscapes, but for anything else it is no good. And even for landscape they could do with a bit less sharpening. But definitely not go back to 808's softness! Also here they must hit the good balance.
Just remove graining due to the oversharpening in most images or minimalize it..
And of course they badly need to adjust the auto WB.
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cu015170
Joined: Oct 26, 2010
Posts: > 500
PM |
Well they have to since that's what people want.. they were on the right path with the N8 and the 808, and then I don't know who made the decision to go into Disney Land. Maybe it wasn't a decision and that's all they could do at the time, but its really nice to hear that they are going back to where they were with Symbian.
http://blog.gsmarena.com/noki[....]he-old-oversampling-algorithm/
"The oversampling algorithm in the Lumia 1020 was altered compared to the 808 PureView phone resulting in oversaturated colors and noisier images. Well, Nokia is bringing back the old algorithms with the Nokia Black update."
Spot on GSMarena.
"RAW support is also on the way."
They will be using DNG for RAW which will results in files size of around 40mb. I am hoping that they would give a choice of just saving that, without the 5Mpix thing, because considering how slow the shot to shot time on the 1020 is right now, this would slow it down even further.
Despite that, writing 40 mb to memory will take some time.. my guess would be 7-8 seconds, which is fine.. I mean if you are shooting RAW you are probably set up and have the time. It just won't be ideal for quick snaps.
They should add a 8-9Mpix mode... 5 is a bit too low.
[ This Message was edited by: cu015170 on 2013-10-24 19:54 ] |
false_morel
Joined: Feb 24, 2010
Posts: 375
PM |
On 2013-10-24 20:54:11, cu015170 wrote:
Well they have to since that's what people want.. they were on the right path with the N8 and the 808, and then I don't know who made the decision to go into Disney Land. Maybe it wasn't a decision and that's all they could do at the time, but its really nice to hear that they are going back to where they were with Symbian.
http://blog.gsmarena.com/noki[....]he-old-oversampling-algorithm/
"The oversampling algorithm in the Lumia 1020 was altered compared to the 808 PureView phone resulting in oversaturated colors and noisier images. Well, Nokia is bringing back the old algorithms with the Nokia Black update."
No they weren't on the right track with the N8 and 808 either. Never liked Nokia's algorithms. Only their hardware.
N8 and 808 lack contrast and sharpness. The colors are too washed out. On a landscape one could adjust it. But for portraits skin tones are way too pale. As if shooting dead people. Auto WB was always inferior to the competition.
The decision for the change with Lumia is due to the feedback they got on the 808 and earlier products. Specially from American websites.
They went too far. Apple received feedback to do the contrary. As with the iPhone 4 their colors were a joke.
Now the iPhone manages the best colors among cameraphones.
Besides, the 1020 is not noisier than the 808, it's grainier. And people looked at those grains and thought it was luminance noise. Hard to differentiate on 1:1 anyway. All they need to do is balance the sharpening. Not go back to 808 levels nor keep it like this.
They will be using DNG for RAW which will results in files size of around 40mb. I am hoping that they would give a choice of just saving that, without the 5Mpix thing, because considering how slow the shot to shot time on the 1020 is right now, this would slow it down even further.
DNG is adobe format. This will make it work automatically with LR and PS! Great news.
And of course on such a camera, RAW is not to be used all the time. Simply not practical and meaningless anyway. No one would bother process every single shot made on a cameraphone. But RAW gives that option when one wants to shoot an interesting motive and process it later to one's liking. It gives a new dimension of freedom to the photographer.
Despite that, writing 40 mb to memory will take some time.. my guess would be 7-8 seconds, which is fine.. I mean if you are shooting RAW you are probably set up and have the time. It just won't be ideal for quick snaps.
They should add a 8-9Mpix mode... 5 is a bit too low.
They should do that yes. When shooting full res and oversampled they could limit the oversampled to 5MP. They should offer single 5MP and 8MP modes though.
[ This Message was edited by: cu015170 on 2013-10-24 19:54 ]
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[ This Message was edited by: false_morel on 2013-10-24 20:14 ] |
cu015170
Joined: Oct 26, 2010
Posts: > 500
PM |
^ are you calling GSMarena incompetent ?
We will see what they do, but I suspect that they might go back to N8/808 algorithms which is great news. They might be even better... I just hope that they get rid of those iPhone 4 like colors, its really annoying.
I am also hoping that they can do something about the edge sharpness.. I stopped by the Microsoft store today and took these
Both locked @ 100iso, everything else on auto.
808
left side
right side
1020
left side
right side
[ This Message was edited by: cu015170 on 2013-10-24 20:59 ] |
false_morel
Joined: Feb 24, 2010
Posts: 375
PM |
On 2013-10-24 21:55:35, cu015170 wrote:
^ are you calling GSMarena incompetent ?
Since when GSMarena are experts in photography?!
They some laughable analyses in the past. To me they fall in the same category with Steve. They do know a thing or two on digital photography. They are pretty experienced in handling cameraphones. And their comparison tests are well done. Well at least they know how to frame two smartphones the same. And not like other websites shooting at different angles and from different positions with every smartphone.
Conclusions they draw, and sometimes the choice of some testing scenes, are mostly funny.
As to their articles, GSMarena make many mistakes. Not talking about photography only. Specially in their blog. And not every editor in GSMarena tests cameraphones you know. They mostly just report.
[ This Message was edited by: false_morel on 2013-10-24 21:10 ] |
cu015170
Joined: Oct 26, 2010
Posts: > 500
PM |
^ So.. who is professional in your opinion ? DPreview ? |
false_morel
Joined: Feb 24, 2010
Posts: 375
PM |
On 2013-10-24 22:12:11, cu015170 wrote:
^ So.. who is professional in your opinion ? DPreview ?
At the moment they are the only ones who review cameras on smartphones professionally.
DXOmark is about a series of tests. Not a true review website. But their numbers are the only numbers that could be trusted. Other similar tests are not usually applied to cameraphones. And they are partners with DPreview as well.
So this combo of DXOmark and DPreview is the only thing to label as professional. Yes.
And before you quote their reviews, both actually claim that the 1020 is best in detail and noise.
DXOmark gave 1020 better marks on detail and noise. And DPreview gave same still photography mark for both the 1020 and 808.
And our debate was always about detail and noise.
As to the overall camera, both the 1020 and 808 have their flaws against the competition. And both have their flaws against each other. |
cu015170
Joined: Oct 26, 2010
Posts: > 500
PM |
dxo.. the peeps who rated the led flash on the Z1 higher than the xenon on the 1020 ? Very credible for sure.
DPreview remains the only one.. |
false_morel
Joined: Feb 24, 2010
Posts: 375
PM |
On 2013-10-25 05:39:41, cu015170 wrote:
dxo.. the peeps who rated the led flash on the Z1 higher than the xenon on the 1020 ? Very credible for sure.
DPreview remains the only one..
Are you doubting DXO, whom profs, who do photography for a living, pay to get those tests and compare the equipment to decide what to get?!
DPreview is a consumer site after all. They focus on consumer products and their reviews are meant for the average Joes to understand. Most of the prof products are not reviewed there even.
Besides, they quote DXOmark in every review they make. So it's funny you regard them higher. Although DXO Labs and DPreview are too different things. Not comparable.
And yes, if you look at the exposure, WB, and the coloring of the 1020's Xenon shots, these fall behind the Z1, GS4, and iP5s with their LEDs! It's a brighter and faster flash, but Nokia ruined it all! Will wait for the update though. Surely they must be doing something about it right now and include the fixes in the Black update..
[ This Message was edited by: false_morel on 2013-10-25 12:14 ] |
Bonovox
Joined: Apr 13, 2008
Posts: > 500
PM |
Phone Arena are the worst for photography testing  GSM Arena bit better but these were always mobile phone review sites they are not professionals
Phone?? What phone?? |
cu015170
Joined: Oct 26, 2010
Posts: > 500
PM |
DxO's ranking makes no sense to me.. I am actually surprised that they have the 808 as their top pick...
They ranked the Z1, the 5s, and gs4 higher than the 1020 ..
[ This Message was edited by: cu015170 on 2013-10-25 20:20 ] |
false_morel
Joined: Feb 24, 2010
Posts: 375
PM |
On 2013-10-25 21:20:36, cu015170 wrote:
DxO's ranking makes no sense to me.. I am actually surprised that they have the 808 as their top pick...
They ranked the Z1, the 5s, and gs4 higher than the 1020 ..
[ This Message was edited by: cu015170 on 2013-10-25 20:20 ]
Why do you keep repeating same refuted points again and again.
When it comes to detail/noise DXO rated the 1020 way ahead of the iPhone 5s and GS4.
But overall, yes, the 1020 has too many flaws to be rated ahead.
And these tests deal with auto modes where 1020's flaws are most evident and frequent.
Look at the color rating they gave the 1020. 56 while first three phones were given in the 80s and 90s.
If Nokia addresses the 1020's coloring problem, which are evident to all (look at the photo you took above, I would take an iPhone photo over it at any given day), then the 1020 will easily jump to top spot.
Also with the 808 as well, while it excels at noise and detail, it is not ahead in other areas.
A photo is not only about detail and noise levels! Specially when vast majority of phone's images are shared online or printed small. Color then becomes a more important factor. Depends on the use case.
You shoot your photos and immediately examine them at 1:1. But if you compare them zoomed out, you would notice that the iPhone would give better results than the 808 at times. More pleasing and correct color and WB. Difference in detail and noise won't be visible to the eye then.
DXO rate AF as well. All of these score add up to the final score.
Seriously now, if I were you, in case I figure out that my views are not in line with DXO's results, I would go open some photography books again and download more tutorials and learn again! Not the other way around, concluding that DXO are rubbish! |
wthc
Joined: Jul 04, 2013
Posts: 19
PM |
On 2013-10-25 22:05:27, false_morel wrote:
But if you compare them zoomed out, you would notice that the iPhone would give better results than the 808 at times. More pleasing and correct color and WB. Difference in detail and noise won't be visible to the eye then.
That’s the big problem of 808, dull/wrong colors. All 808 photos in the photo section have exaggerated colors saturation, unnatural at least. There’s something wrong with 808, not with DXO. |
cu015170
Joined: Oct 26, 2010
Posts: > 500
PM |
The 808 has manual settings for contrast, color, and saturation.. if you see a photo that is saturated that is user desired. If you shoot in auto the color reproduction is very much like the N8, neutral/natural, and I am hoping that Nokia are going back to that with the next 1020 camera update. |
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Posted: 2013-10-23 16:13
