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N8 vs Satio - Camera Shootout |
false_morel
Joined: Feb 24, 2010
Posts: 375
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On 2011-01-07 20:35:22, Vit wrote:
Are you sure youīre not talking about yourself? LOL...
Well, I always knew that, pal. Are you talking to your mirror? 
Well, disrespect? Sorry, the esato crew should definitely put a warning sign to advert people who use bold characters:
" attention: the use of bold letters are highly offensive".
Do you know what I hate most about online forum debates? Debates which were meant to end up fruitful and of high quality discussion but rather ends up in a low level childishness..
Sometimes I intentionally go low level with some ignorant smartasses, but in your case, you're definitely not one of those and I thought we were heading to some decent discussion!
Anyway, only if you use some more respect in your posts we could come out with something useful here!
Putting parts of speech in bold, you know, is meant for highlighting the referenced parts in long articles to help a reader locate those parts without the need to read other useless parts.. That would be an example of applying that feature.
You highlighting some of your own words in a reply, could only be interpreted as you degrading your discussant and hinting that he/she doesn't possess enough comprehension skills to understand and analyze your post!
You failing to get this point and reply with a rather sarcastic comment about "Esato board and the bold feature" made it even worse!!
That's not to mention the use of direct insulting words and the "LOLs" you're obssessed with!
Just go back to your mature form. As to be honest, you're only insulting yourself by such low level replies..
What can I say? First, may I repeat that the P200 has never been a high-end compact?
It wasn't a flagship. But it wasn't a cheap low-end camera either!!
And I don't know why are you that much worked out about this specific point. Be it mid- to high-range camera or a flagship, regarding quality, most of the times there is no difference at all.
Even so, your comments regarding your idea of timeless high end devices is just hilarious
You missed this point competely!!
No matter what electoric device or product we're talking about.. Be it a digital camera, laptop, graphic card, tv, or whatever, a high-end will always remain a high-quality device that delivered top performace at the time!
Speaking of cameras, a certain of options and quality hardware which were there in decent cameras back then and missing in low-end cameras, are still there in nowadays high-ends and still missing in low-end ones..
End quality went up, but the approach remains the same..
If you had picked a DSLR back then, and shot the same photo, the same huge difference in quality will still be there had you picked up a current Sony high-end and a current DSLR and shot that same photo.. And this is jsut obvious, not speculation!!
Now, you meant that even a five years old digital camera was capable of something the current high-end cameraphone isn't capable of.
So what?
A stand-alone camera was meant for certain uses five years, and still meant for those same uses, and a cameraphone is meant for another uses..
When you blame Nokia for that SS thingy, and label the N8 as incapable whereas is it shouldn't be capable of what you're demanding here, you're being unfair and discrediting Nokia for something they should be rather credited for instead!
As when you compare the N8 with the Satio approach, which gives the user an unusable night mode unless he has a tripod at hand, this should be the approach criticized and discredited!
But do you know why SE went for that rather controversial approach?
Because had they gone with higher ISO to compensate for the lack of slow SS achieving a more realitistic exposure than going with a totally underexposed one, the Satio would have then delivered some low-quality horrific results due to hardware limiations (Sensor and optics).
When I got my P200, I was in Italy. Iīve got a cheap 5 euro pocket-sized mini-tripod and once I had a guy with a digital reflex alongside me, taking pics of the Vatican @ night. He didnīt have a tripod. I could see him taking a 1000 pics without managing to take one single steady shot. He came across me and he took a look at my pics. He was absolutely stunned by what that little P200 could do with a tripod.
If you wanna take a great shot @ night, you can rest assure that most of the times you will look indeed ridiculous, no matter what you do.
I didn't mean that tripods should be used exclusively with DSLRs!! Or else you'd look ridiculous!
I was referring to cameraphones in specific!!
As when someone goes out with a tripod, be it at night or at any time, this means he's dedicated to shooting some pro photos.. He planned for that that is and he's going out just to enjoy that activity. And not as a secondary activity.
And to use a cameraphone for that is a bit ridiculous don't you think.
If you're into photography, go buy a stand-alone camera, preferably a decent one, get a tripod, and go out enjoy your time..
The issue is, when you need to take night photos with a cameraphone, you wont have a tripod at your needs at the moment.
But there could be some cases that's it worth it if having a tripod or any similar tool to hold the phone fixed, that you could make use of that option.. That's why adding such a feature would be welcomed. But one can't blame Nokia or any cameraphone manufacturer if they decide not to! This is the point I'm making.
To do it SE's way and go with automated night mode that goes up to 1 second or more SS without the ability to lower it in case you don't have a tripod at the moment is simply stupid.
Yeah, I guess youīre right... 1/8s is THE perfect limit for Shutter Speed.
Could you please give me one single reference for that? It should be a really interesting reading.
Should I state every single detail so that I get myself clear enough!!
Writing algorithms to handle different SS speeds on different modes isn't jsut an easy job done in one hour!!
This needs testing, extensive piece of code, and quite an accurate optimization!
If you fail to figure the effort required to do such a task without the need to since less than 1% of N8 owners would use that, then you're being simply ignorant.
Yes, you have missed a lot of phones, actually.
The Pixon 12 would shot at ISO-50 with 1/2s of Exposure Time in Auto Mode. It also would shot @ ISO-50 with a whole second of exposure time in its Fireworks Mode.
The Satio does 1s of Exposure Time up to ISO-250+ in its Twilight Mode.
You call that a real manual SS setting!!
Those are automated modes for christ's sake!! With some specific post-processing algorithms that go along as well!! | |
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Vit
Joined: Nov 13, 2007
Posts: 279
From: Brazil
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Well, you talked about disrespect and childness.
Letīs refresh your memory so you can remember who have initiated this series of not-so-kind comments:
Instead, he gave me an HDR for the Satio, and other heavily post-processd photos!
Good start, pal!
Yes, you have missed a lot of phones, actually.
The Pixon 12 would shot at ISO-50 with 1/2s of Exposure Time in Auto Mode. It also would shot @ ISO-50 with a whole second of exposure time in its Fireworks Mode.
The Satio does 1s of Exposure Time up to ISO-250+ in its Twilight Mode.
You call that a real manual SS setting!!
Who was talking about real manual SS setting?!?!?
I have never written such a thing. Come back and read your own comments before posting.
I have always refered to the availability of SS slower than 1/8s. That was it, and I am repeating it for the n-th time. Please, confirm you have understood this.
Those are automated modes for christ's sake!! With some specific post-processing algorithms that go along as well!!
So what? Even a compact with manual SS has a specific NR algorithm for slower speeds.
My problem is not with Post-processing, unless itīs aggressive. Not the case with those phones Iīve mentioned, at least for low light shots.
Besides that, all JPEG files have to do with Post-processing.
I guess you cannot write Iīve asked for RAW pictures, can you?
If we canīt get even SS slower than 1/8s, RAW files really seem a thing from another world.
And to use a cameraphone for that is a bit ridiculous don't you think.
Not at all.
From a far point of view, who can tell the difference between a N8 and a Sony TX7, for instance? The N8 is even larger than the Sony.
That gap between high-end cameraphones and compacts have been narrowed a long time ago.
[ This Message was edited by: Vit on 2011-01-09 01:09 ] Every Picture Tells a Story |
false_morel
Joined: Feb 24, 2010
Posts: 375
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On 2011-01-09 01:53:34, Vit wrote:
Who was talking about real manual SS setting?!?!?
Me!
I was actually talking about manual SS setting where you quoted me and replied with the Pixon and Satio argument.
A misunderstanding from both sides, no harm done..
From a far point of view, who can tell the difference between a N8 and a Sony TX7, for instance? The N8 is even larger than the Sony.
That gap between high-end cameraphones and compacts have been narrowed a long time ago.
Well, yes.. This seems a topic to be discussed.. Could cameraphones replace compact digital cameras?
Before getting into this.. Just to settle our own debate about the N8-Satio night photography..
Facts:
- Satio goes with low SS (down to 1 sec) when put in nightmode.
- N8 goes for high ISO speeds (up to an average of 800) and limits the SS to minimum of 1/5 sec when put in nightmode.
- None offers full manual settings over SS. N8 offers manual overriding of every available feature, whereas the Satio limits the user control in the automated modes to just handling the EV bias..
As a result, to get the best out of the Satio in such mode, one needs to keep it steady, preferably on a tripod.
To get the best of the N8 in night mode, one could very well keep it handlheld and there is a whole bunch of tweaking options to play with to try and get the best result.
The user experience is very limited by the Satio (and other cameraphones) as one could only shoot acceptable night photos if there is a tripod at hand, while the N8 can't offer a low SS night shot, but does offer a much more flexible and practical approach..
Out of those two approaches, to objectively assess a cameraphone meant for average users who almost know nothing about the photography world, the N8 has the clear advantage!
Even for an experienced photographer, the Satio could only offer a very fully automated night mode where almost no useful tweaks could be made!
Also, even for such a user, there will be no tripod at hand almost all of the time..
What could be enhanced in both cameras, is to offer a full manual mode with full control over SS, ISO, and other variables, and even if possible, implement a variable aperture as well.
However, Vit, to open a thread bashing the N8 for its night photography "limitations" and claim that other cameraphones offer better solutions isn't fair not correct at all.
Simply because no other device offers a better solution or functionality at this aspect!!
You can't call a fully automated night mode where using a tripod is a must a better solution! At least not for the average user that count up to 99% of total owners..
Now, back to the cameraphone vs stand-alone compact topic.
Nokia have committed themselves for a while now to deliver a high-end compact replacement through their cameraphone solutions.
They declared that publicly, and are supposed to be on their way to achieve it.
So, by limiting the user's options to automated modes where the SS is very much limited, as well as no full control ISO and no manual focus nor variable aperture seems they still have a long way to go..
But they are still leading the competition at the moment. So one can't ask them for more. Here lies the problem.
Users could help push them further and demand those implementations and enhancements, but as long as the N8 is the most a cameraphone could deliver at the moment, one has to accept this as a reality.
So at the moment, cameraphones aren't of any replacements for stand-alone cameras so that photography enthusiasts could rely on and use them as primary cameras for all occasions!
Thus, taking a cameraphone and putting it on a tripod seems out of place!
It's still not ready for such usage.
And adding a single feature of changing the SS or lower it a bit in the night mode won't make it a replacement nor make it ready for full dedicated use..
If you think otherwise, elaborate on your idea..
[ This Message was edited by: false_morel on 2011-01-09 03:54 ] |
zide
Joined: Jul 20, 2009
Posts: 481
From: Portugal
PM |
Would you please stop bitch-fighting and post some more comparison shots?
Thanks
See my photos taken with the C902, Satio or E72 in here! |
etaab
Joined: Jan 23, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: UK - South Yorkshire
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Agreed. I just unbookmarked this thread.
Check me out on Instagram ! search for etaab ! |
false_morel
Joined: Feb 24, 2010
Posts: 375
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Well yes of couse.. This thread turned out disappointing and rather embarassing to say the least!
Anyway, here are my final comments I posted earlier regarding the comparison. I couldn't post more photos, but also one needs no hundreds of comparison photos to come to a conlusion..
Landscape: The N8 exploits the bigger sensor and enhanced optics in comparison to the Satio and leaves the photos as natural as they could get! Almost no noise reduction, and no chromatic post-processing..
Portraits: Color tones are just accurate and natural with incredible detail compared to the Satio.
Night Portraits: Despite the feel of cold results, with the N8 there is no room for over-exposure, and one gets a natural touch as if no flash was used. And here the N8 takes the clear advantage of handling higher ISO speeds.
Macros: N8 isn't that impressive as the Satio or other cameraphones and compacts. That's due to the AF mechanism it uses through its lens. One could elaborate more on this, but no need to because after all, Macros are of high-quality on the N8..
Night Shots: The N8 goes for higher ISO speeds and limits the SS at 1/5s max and make use of an aggressive but ingenious post-processing algorithm to pull out the most of such low light conditions.
The Satio goes for longer SS, lower ISO as it can't handle high ones anyway, keep the aggressive noise reduction, which leads to some respectable results given the all the hardware limits, but useless photos in general!
And that's not to count the camera blur at such SSs; and shooting at automtic mode for such scenes isn't any good either.
Automatic modes: The Satio does a better job to pull out the best of itself in comparison to the N8!
That's why for some users the N8 was labeled as an unfriendly camera.. It does get few parametes wrong depending on how tough the condition shooting at.. And hence one needs to manipulate the settings a bit..
This is a point counted for SE..
Of course the thread would remain open for any other owners of those phones to post some more.. But at least for me, I'm done with this, as I wanted to know whether the N8 is worth the upgarde, and got my asnwer: The N8 is worth it.. |
etaab
Joined: Jan 23, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: UK - South Yorkshire
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I didnt need to compare them all that much, Symbian 3 over the Satio's Symbian of old was worth the upgrade even if the N8 came with a standard 5mp snapper.
Check me out on Instagram ! search for etaab ! |
AbuBasim
Joined: Nov 04, 2005
Posts: > 500
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On 2011-01-10 03:30:57, false_morel wrote:
Night Shots: The N8 goes for higher ISO speeds and limits the SS at 1/5s max and make use of an aggressive but ingenious post-processing algorithm to pull out the most of such low light conditions.
The Satio goes for longer SS, lower ISO as it can't handle high ones anyway, keep the aggressive noise reduction, which leads to some respectable results given the all the hardware limits, but useless photos in general!
And that's not to count the camera blur at such SSs; and shooting at automtic mode for such scenes isn't any good either.
For really excellent night shots I'd prefer super-slow shutter speeds at low ISO speeds. I have a four year old camphone that shoots night shots at ISO 50 with a shutter speed of up to 4 seconds. And this can be cranked up to 10 seconds with EV +2.0...
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Bonovox
Joined: Apr 13, 2008
Posts: > 500
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From what I have seen the Satio produces very noisy shots 
Phone?? What phone?? |
false_morel
Joined: Feb 24, 2010
Posts: 375
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@ etaab
As to the phone in general, it's a no brainer actually.. I agree.
But I meant as a camera. Had the Satio been a better camera, I would have sent the N8 back and sticked to my Satio with all its shortcomings compared to the N8..
@ AbuBasim
Do you mean a modded SE Cybershot phone? |
AbuBasim
Joined: Nov 04, 2005
Posts: > 500
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On 2011-01-11 02:32:15, false_morel wrote:
@ AbuBasim
Do you mean a modded SE Cybershot phone?
No. I'm talking about this one.
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false_morel
Joined: Feb 24, 2010
Posts: 375
PM |
On 2011-01-11 06:55:36, AbuBasim wrote:
No. I'm talking about this one.
Where did you come up with this phone from?! 
Anyway, it's the first time I know i-mobile used (or maybe still) to produce decent cameraphones!
What about the camera interface?
How do you get those SSs? Is it about an automated mode as in SE cameraphones or is it about manual setting?
The quality of those pics aren't of high-qulity. But that's comparing them to what cameraphones are capable of today!
Four years back, this phone should have been a hit. And I never knew it existed..
Is it available outside Thailand btw? |
AbuBasim
Joined: Nov 04, 2005
Posts: > 500
PM |
The phone is no longer produced. It came it around the same time as LG's only CCD-based camphone, the KG920. Both use the same camera module, produced by Sony which incidentally supplied Canon with exactly the same sensor for their 5MP P-S cameras around the same time. One of the cameras was the Digital IXUS 55.
The phone is only available from Thailand. I bought mine from eBay.
I agree about the picture quality. For daylight shots my N8 gives much better results. But for night shots, nothing beats the 902. Shutter speed is automatically chosen when selecting Night mode from the scene selection.
The camera is tuned for picture quality and low noise which means fairly slow shutter speeds even for normal photos to counter for the tiny lens. Difficult to shoot hand-held indoors.
The camera interface is very similar to the Cybershot interface. This made some people believe that this phone was produced by Sony but the OEM is actually Asus.
I found out about this phone from M-R's review here.
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Vit
Joined: Nov 13, 2007
Posts: 279
From: Brazil
PM |
@ false morel:
I have elaborated my ideas more than I should have.
You have your own ideas regarding cameraphones. I have mine, and they are clearly different from yours.
I will always start threads open to discussion whenever I please. You can call that incorrect. Itīs your right.
I will just stay highly unsatisfied by knowing that the slowest available SS for my N8 at ISO-100 is 1/18s (normally 1/8s, but when you select a manual ISO setting, then it changes its bottom limit to 1/18s).
Every Picture Tells a Story |
jake20
Joined: Jan 23, 2009
Posts: > 500
From: USA
PM |
Hi Vit,
Its not by much but your numbers are incorrect.. at ISO-100 is 1/15s (normally 1/5s, but when you select a manual ISO 100 setting, then it changes its bottom limit to 1/15s) not 1/18
Again.. I agree with you, there should be a slower shutter speed option, but the positives far outweigh this limitation for me.
I have just accepted the fact that the N8 is not suited for slow shutter creative night time photography.
But for everything else, its the best.
So, will you be keeping your N8? | |
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Posted: 2011-01-07 23:15
