| Author |
N8 vs Satio - Camera Shootout |
false_morel
Joined: Feb 24, 2010
Posts: 375
PM |
To begin with, two nightshots..
Both hand-held, same position, same conditions..
N8:
Original
Satio
Original | |
|
etaab
Joined: Jan 23, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: UK - South Yorkshire
PM |
Could you upload both to imageshack and rezise them to 1024 size, for better forum comparions whilst keeping the originals linked ?
From those rather small examples i prefer the N8.
Check me out on Instagram ! search for etaab ! |
zide
Joined: Jul 20, 2009
Posts: 481
From: Portugal
PM |
Hard to compare as they use two completely different ISO's.
N8-700, Satio-100
Despite being darker, Satio's is obviously better.
See my photos taken with the C902, Satio or E72 in here! |
Bonovox
Joined: Apr 13, 2008
Posts: > 500
PM |
Satio has noisier photos from what I have seen before
Phone?? What phone?? |
false_morel
Joined: Feb 24, 2010
Posts: 375
PM |
On 2010-12-08 20:01:37, etaab wrote:
Could you upload both to imageshack and rezise them to 1024 size, for better forum comparions whilst keeping the originals linked ?
Already thought about it..
I'll be uploading some number of photos and it would take time to do it all over imageshack.. You know, more clicks and copy-pasting..
Then, the originals are what counts.. And on imageshack, one has to download the photos to own destop to view full size..
So the whole process is some pain in the ass for both sides if we're talking about tens of pics!
I prefer Esato's way for efficiency..
-----------------------------------------
As to the first two pics,
It's one hard choice despite the obvious difference in the two results.
Detail better on the N8, but noise higher as well. This is expected.
As with noise/detail, even in daylight, the Satio's approach is about aggressive noise reduction on teh expense of some detail (consumer friendly), while Nokia's approach is about highest detail possible while maintaining an acceptable level of noise (prof way)..
Now as to the overall exposure and color rendering, here comes the confusion. Specially the point Vit talked about.
What's better: Low ISO with slower SS, or High ISO with faster SS?
The difference is completely obvious in those two photos.
The issue here, if both cameras are handed full user control over SS and ISO, there is no doubt the N8 would by far deliver higher-quality photos!
With lack of those controls, we have to settle with those two "automatic" approaches where it's difficult to pick a winner.
With automatic setting (night scene mode) the Satio delivers more realistic results, while the N8 delivers oversaturated photos (could be more pleasing to the average user) but with better detail/noise handeling..
Now, with playing with the EVs (lowering the EV a little on the N8 whereas it lowers the ISO with it) or by post-processing better results could be achieved by the N8.
Highering the ISO on the Satio would ruin the photo by excessive noise and lack of detail at the same!!
That's why I consider N8's approach with those cemeraphone limitations is better.
First, one could play more with the availabe setting to achieve the best results.
Second, much faster and easier snaps due to lower SS. No blurs, no need for tripods or steady hands, just point and shoot once..
But credits should be given to SE for producing such a user friendly cameraphone.. Which despite a year older, still very much up for the competition..
More examples to come. And of course other scenes comparisons. |
etaab
Joined: Jan 23, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: UK - South Yorkshire
PM |
See, id disagree with anyone who would say the Satio takes better pictures, especially at night time, remember my comparisons of night shots ?
Satio VS N8 night shots
Check me out on Instagram ! search for etaab ! |
false_morel
Joined: Feb 24, 2010
Posts: 375
PM |
I have some extra time, here are etaab's pics from the other thread. 
Same comments as on the pics I provided above.
Only thing to note here, with etaab switching from night mode to normal mode in th esecond pic, the N8 went for faster SS rather but kept the ISO teh same! It would have been nicer if the EVs were played with or the ISO solely..
Satio
Nokia N8
|
false_morel
Joined: Feb 24, 2010
Posts: 375
PM |
Here are Vit photos:
N8 (ISO-500, 1/5s Shutter Speed):
Satio (ISO-100, 1s Shutter Speed):
N8īs crops:
Satioīs crops:
First of all, it's important to note that the two photos were shot at completely different times, different positions, and different angles!
Despite that, some comments:
Details/noise handling as other examples..
At ISO 500 the N8 for my taste delivered a better exposed scene.. I can't be sure since one needs to see the scene with bare eyes, but fact is the two photos were shot at two different times it's hard to tell the better exposure anyway..
|
false_morel
Joined: Feb 24, 2010
Posts: 375
PM |
Ok, back to imageshack.. Didn't know only ten photos allowed per day on Esato..
Notes:
- Pics on Satio feel closer because of the wide angle lens on then N8. The two cameras were held at exactly same position and at same angle all over the shootout.
- These photos were for comparison purposes, not to pull out the max of each camera or some artistic/appealing images.
- Satio's photos top, N8's bottom all over the post.
Close-up, flash on, indoors, lightbulb..
One feels a little touch of over-exposure by the Satio.
Tight win for N8.
--------------------------
Close range, flash on, indoors, lighbulb
More detail and less noise on the N8!
Realistic color represesntation as well compared to Satio's too colorful photo!
--------------------------
Close-up, flash off, indoors, low light condition
Both photos tuned up blury.. Expected under such conditions with the cameras hand-held.
I could have held them more firmly however..
Anyway, it's a huge win for the N8!
--------------------------
Medium range, flash on indoors, lighbulb
More detail and less noise on N8!
Much better color representation..
Satio coloring the scene too much as well, but better flash uniformity!
--------------------------
Medium range, flash on, indoors, lighbulb
Catasrophe!
Blue turned green on the N8!!
Instead of correcting the white balance, the N8 f*cked it up!!
Horrible..
Here's with manual White Balance correction before shooting, but still horrible:
Any suggestions to why the N8 performed that horribly in this scene?!
I tried everything.. White Balance, EV, ISO, contrast, scene modes.. All gave similar horrible color rendering!
Post-processing didn't help either!
--------------------------
Medium range, flash off, indoors, lighbulb
Still the same..
However, this time with manual white balance corrections, the N8 wakes up:
Very appealing. Huge difference! And defintely beats the Satio.. But not "automatically"!!
--------------------------
So, indoors under low light conditions the N8 was superior. With exception of that blue curtain phot with flash on! I'm still in shock!!
Anyway, still two scenes will be posted indoors with daylight coming through..
Then, I'll move outside.. Hopefully the sun will drop in the coming days.. We haven't seen her for weeks now. 
[ This Message was edited by: false_morel on 2010-12-11 10:46 ] |
jake20
Joined: Jan 23, 2009
Posts: > 500
From: USA
PM |
I have stated previously, that the N8 suffers in indoor low light flash photography.
I believe Damian Dinning is working on this mode for next firmware update.
All of my indoor shots either come out too blue or too yellow.
The settings i have found which provide me with the best indoor flash details are
1. Red eye flash
2. Sunny White Balance
3. -0.5 exposure compensation
4. Color Tone Normal
5. ISO LOW
Its still not great, but its the best balance (for me) of accurate color tones and good exposure
|
false_morel
Joined: Feb 24, 2010
Posts: 375
PM |
On 2010-12-11 22:30:56, jake20 wrote:
I have stated previously, that the N8 suffers in indoor low light flash photography.
I believe Damian Dinning is working on this mode for next firmware update.
All of my indoor shots either come out too blue or too yellow.
The settings i have found which provide me with the best indoor flash details are
1. Red eye flash
2. Sunny White Balance
3. -0.5 exposure compensation
4. Color Tone Normal
5. ISO LOW
Its still not great, but its the best balance (for me) of accurate color tones and good exposure
Well, Damian talked about improving the N8's flash capability, as there is a smaller Xenon flash module installed on it than the average. But never talked about fixing a major flaw like that!
This is incorrect color rendering. There is something wrong in the algorithem implemented by Nokia to render colors and correct the white balance!
And actually, the N8 doesn't perform bad at all with flash photos!
Just look at that indoors photo of the universal bank and the dumbles beside it.
The same lighting conditions, same range to that of the "Blue Curtain" photo, yet, it delivered one excellent quality photo!
And it beat the Satio in that scene.
Only thing about the Satio, it distributes the flash more uniformly and not concentrated in one area of the photo.
Despite that, the N8 got the right exposure, and delivered a higher-quality photo on all aspects!
With the Curtain photo, at first, when I point the N8 towards the curtain, it views it well.
Then a second or two, it turns green!
Funny, though, if I shoot half the curtain with half teh wall beside it, the N8 performs quite well.. That's because the wall i all white and the N8 goes for different approach than with an all blue scene..
Realy weird. But good that with the N8 one needs no flash in such conditions. Without flash,by adjusting the white balance manually, it delivers some excellent photos as shown above.. |
false_morel
Joined: Feb 24, 2010
Posts: 375
PM |
Yes Bono, I believe there is nothing wrong with N8's flash photos.. I agree with Jake that the flash could haven been more powerful or just as Damian suggested that some driver updates would improve it.. But for now, it's more than good.
That major flaw in white balancing, I consider it an exceptoin. It's nothing that one has to worry about. It couldn't be reproduced that easily by any flash use..
Still, this should be addressed and fixed..
Edit: Added the "not"!
[ This Message was edited by: false_morel on 2010-12-14 04:06 ] |
Bonovox
Joined: Apr 13, 2008
Posts: > 500
PM |
Not sure if it's my imagination but the flash seems to be quite clever. The camera sensor seems to sense how far you are from your subject & the flash fires at the right level depending on distance.
Phone?? What phone?? |
Vit
Joined: Nov 13, 2007
Posts: 279
From: Brazil
PM |
On 2010-12-09 23:50:58, false_morel wrote:
Here are Vit photos:
N8 (ISO-500, 1/5s Shutter Speed):
Satio (ISO-100, 1s Shutter Speed):
N8īs crops:
Satioīs crops:
First of all, it's important to note that the two photos were shot at completely different times, different positions, and different angles!
Despite that, some comments:
Details/noise handling as other examples..
At ISO 500 the N8 for my taste delivered a better exposed scene.. I can't be sure since one needs to see the scene with bare eyes, but fact is the two photos were shot at two different times it's hard to tell the better exposure anyway..
Yeah, they were taken in different times. But that doesnīt mean a thing here. Theyīve got exactly the same exposure:
1s * ISO 100 = 100 ISO * s
1/5s * ISO 500 = 100 ISO * s.
Perfectly comparable shots. The angle difference is merely an artistic one. It doesnīt interfere with the technical comparison.
Anyway, some things donīt change, like the street gas lamps. They are exactly the same.
We can see that the N8 has a vastly superior optics, which provide much more resolved resolution than Satioīs unit. You can see that by the sharpness of light sources at night. Light spots in Satioīs samples look a bit fuzzy, and thatīs not a misfocus issue. In the N8 samples, these spots look perfectly round and sharp. Thatīs why people use to complain about Satioīs camera and to compare then to some 5mpixel cameraphones. I guess itīs resolved resolution in quite low for a 12 mpixel sensor.
Anyway, I reckon that the Satio shot is a better representation of the scene when looked downsized to match my display res. N8īs advantage only shows if you look at them at the max res.
Besides that, the n8 tends to overexposure pics at night. Sometimes you need to select -1,5 EV in order to get the scene right.
Iīve bought another Satio last week. I was not satisfied with N8īs shots. Iīll soon post some shoot out pics of these two.
The N8 simply kills the chroma noise, so all its high-ISO shots lack saturation. Tha Satio is better in this regard, IMO.
I am confident that Satioīs main problem is poor optics. Its lacks resolution and itīs also prone to both flare and chromatic fringing. But I prefer Sonyīs approach when it comes to noise reduction. You can always diminish the noise levels with Photoshop or similar programs.
Itīs weird to think that Damian Dinning has said that his team prefer to render N8īs pics good for post-processing.
[ This Message was edited by: Vit on 2010-12-13 18:28 ] Every Picture Tells a Story |
Vit
Joined: Nov 13, 2007
Posts: 279
From: Brazil
PM |
On 2010-12-11 10:09:08, false_morel wrote:
More noise does not mean better quality. These are not my words... Are Damianīs.
Look what I was saying about the N8: Its shot has almost no chroma noise. Thatīs not realistic.
The N8 leaves the luminescent noise intact, but simply kills the chroma noise. Try to take a high ISO shot from an object colored red, like a red carpet or a snooker table cover.
The N8 renders the red in high ISO shots like it was plain red, with a lot of added saturation to compensate for the chroma noise reduction.
And I do not agree that it has more detail than Satioīs shot in this case. In fact, not only I see more detail on Satioīs sample, but I also prefer SEīs approach when it comes to noise reduction. All that chroma noise helps to mantain the saturation and the colour nuances at higher ISO levels.
[ This Message was edited by: Vit on 2010-12-13 18:43 ] Every Picture Tells a Story | |
|
Access the forum with a mobile phone via esato.mobi
|
Posted: 2010-12-08 19:26
