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Does anyone actually believe in man made warming, and why? |
michka
Joined: May 17, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Brussels-Belgium
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On 2009-06-06 16:05:52, arien617 wrote:
Mining uranium ore is a dirty business, and tied in with the greater risk of using nuclear energy, I don't think it's viable in the grand scheme of things. The stupid "bury the CO2" idea is more enticing than nuclear energy.
Wind and wave, and for our transportation, hydrogen. Not just fuel cells - I'm hoping to see a safe hydrogen combustion engine. There should be some manufacturers toying with the idea.
And also, uranium is only available for about 100 years.
Indeed the "bury the CO2" is completely stupid, because what is done is move away and release CH4 to replace it by CO2. Unfortunately, CH4 is also a very efficient greenhouse gas.
Pedestrian: don't run, my car is faster anyway. | |
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Consumology
Joined: Jun 25, 2005
Posts: 57
From: Germany
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Yes, putting CO2 underground is stupid.
US politics has already changed with Obama and the Chinese government also has global warming and other environmental issues set on its agenda, but remember, it still is the Chinese government, not Greenpeace, so only small steps are to be expected. But every step in the right direction is better then nothing. Blaming governments is also too easy, consumers are voting and shopping so we as consumers can support change. Buy a GreenHeart instead of a normal product and it also probably improves things in China since SE is producing there (donno where the GreenHearts will be produced exactly though). |
michka
Joined: May 17, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Brussels-Belgium
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And let me state one important thing: It is not climate change that is important, it is the speed at which it changes. Because if it goes too fast, we won't be able to adapt due to the way our society is organized.
Moreover, the raise in temperature we are discussing is a global phenomenon. Meaning that it is the mean values of the temperature over the all earth that is raising. Locally it can raise or drop dramatically depending on the reorganization of the atmospheric and sea currents, which can happen for very small changes in the temperaure.
One example: Due to the raise in temperature, most of the ice in Russia, Siberia etc. is melting and the resulting fresh water go into the arctic sea. Salt content of the sea water is changing, and as it is that salt content that is the motor driving the Gulfstream, the latter might well stop completely (it is already slowing down significantly). Unfortunately, the Gulfstream is one of the oceanic currents that redistribute the heat mostly received in the tropics. Once this happens, North America and Europe will completely freeze and no crop will grow anymore, followed by the death of most animal species.
Now, what will we do if this happens? The sad answer is: Invade the hotter countries south, which means wars for food.
Pedestrian: don't run, my car is faster anyway. |
Bonovox
Joined: Apr 13, 2008
Posts: > 500
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Hang on a minute I thought the world was heating up not the gulfstream changing course or stopping and we are back in the ice age. Surely if its global warming then why is the ice caps melting if we are about to freeze? Ya never got that idea from The Day After Tomorrow film did ya? I believe everything you just said then is a natural cycle nothing more.
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[ This Message was edited by: Bonovox on 2009-06-06 22:33 ] |
michka
Joined: May 17, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Brussels-Belgium
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Read carefully what I wrote. Let me break it down into succeeding effects:
Global warming means an increase of the mean temperature of the earth.
Such an increase melts the glaciers, bringing huge amounts of fresh water in the arctic sea.
Which in turn stops the gulfstream.
As a consequence the heat collected from the sun in the tropics is not redistributed.
Final effect: North America and Europe will freeze. On the other hand temperature in the tropics will raise.
Pedestrian: don't run, my car is faster anyway. |
carkitter
Joined: Apr 29, 2005
Posts: > 500
From: Auckland, NZ
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On 2009-06-06 00:59:00, arien617 wrote:
...Global warming cannot be "proven". However, fossil fuels running out can, and have.
The drive for alternative fuels should not arise from lowering CO2 emissions, it should be due to our sole source of energy being finite. There will be a time when supply will not meet demand, and that's the real problem.
Rubbish! There's plenty of oil reserves and they find more all the time. When they leave a well it's not because it's empty but because it's cheaper to start a new one. Eventually we'll go back to all the half empty wells and spend more money and use new more advanced technologies to access the oil - it'll just cost more. Prices will go up, alternative fuels will get cheaper and hey presto! before you know it, we'll have transitioned away from fossil fuels. No armageddon necessary.
On 2009-06-06 15:28:00, Bonovox wrote:
What prat said there was a hole in the ozone layer. Seriously if there was a hole we probably would'nt breathing now...
There absolutely is a hole in the ozone layer, it's over Antarctica so you in the Northern Hemisphere wouldn't notice it but down here in NZ which is the closest country to Antarctica, we know all about it and the melanoma skin cancer and the fact that we used to get sunburnt on an overcast, late spring day. Do you know how fast we banned CFC aerosol propellants and R12 refrigerant down here and about the satellite pictures they used to show on our TV news of the hole? Fortunately the trend has reversed and the hole had shrunk significantly last I heard.
I'm not kidding about this.
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arien617
Joined: Feb 01, 2006
Posts: > 500
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On 2009-06-08 13:19:33, carkitter wrote:
On 2009-06-06 00:59:00, arien617 wrote:
...Global warming cannot be "proven". However, fossil fuels running out can, and have.
The drive for alternative fuels should not arise from lowering CO2 emissions, it should be due to our sole source of energy being finite. There will be a time when supply will not meet demand, and that's the real problem.
Rubbish! There's plenty of oil reserves and they find more all the time. When they leave a well it's not because it's empty but because it's cheaper to start a new one. Eventually we'll go back to all the half empty wells and spend more money and use new more advanced technologies to access the oil - it'll just cost more. Prices will go up, alternative fuels will get cheaper and hey presto! before you know it, we'll have transitioned away from fossil fuels. No armageddon necessary.
And eventually it will run out. That's one failure of a counter argument, carkitter. The point I made was that fossil fuels will run dry, and all you did was back that up with cost implications of continuing to pump them.
Oh, and where did I mention anything about war? I said supply will not meet demand. Nothing related to war.
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carkitter
Joined: Apr 29, 2005
Posts: > 500
From: Auckland, NZ
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Adding up all the current reserves, the future ones, the 'half empty' ones and the Shale oil that they are only just developing technology for now (particularly in Australia) the estimate is 5000 yrs worth. That gives us plenty of time to develop a plan B. My money is on Solar, before the end of the century. Hopefully I won't be disappointed at the age of 128... 
When I said armageddon (with a little 'a') I meant an 'end of the world' scenario not war.
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Cycovision
Joined: Nov 30, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: England
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I do know that we shouldn't be burning fossil fuels, no matter how much of it there might be left.
Simple reason being, there are too many other invaluable things that are made out of hydrocarbons such as plastics, medicines, industrial chemicals etc. that are either impossible or impractical to make any other way.
Setting fire to the stuff is a bloody crime! Alternative power sources for transport, industrial and domestic uses should be of paramount importance, whether burning fossil fuels is bad for the planet or not. Global Warming is not the only issue here.
[ This Message was edited by: Cycovision on 2009-06-08 15:18 ] |
Brightspark
Joined: Aug 19, 2007
Posts: 326
From: UK
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On 2009-06-06 14:16:59, thomas93 wrote:
Brightspark, with all due respect when were you made global warming chief authority. Maybe it is your or other scientists opinions are wrong (Not trying to say we're right)
because i've done my research
On 2009-06-06 18:58:34, michka wrote:
On 2009-06-06 15:28:00, Bonovox wrote:
What prat said there was a hole in the ozone layer. Seriously if there was a hole we probably would'nt breathing now. If aviation fuel is causing so much damage what do you think is going to happen? Nothing. Do you seriously think its going to stop or be cut it never happens. Yes your thinking if everyone else had my attitude we will all be doomed. Rubbish. Do you think MP's are going to do what they ask YOU to do. No. Because its all complete crap they tell you whatever they want. Ice caps melt and break away into the atlantic all the time its nothing new. Sorry I am not just being blind or ignoring it I just dont believe it. The world changes naturally all the time. Yes we are polluters but I see no difference in our weather around the world than I seen when I was watching the news as a kid in the late 70s or 80s. [ This Message was edited by: Bonovox on 2009-06-06 14:37 ]
Ice caps do not melt or break away all the time, they melt during summer time. The fact is that it now melts far more rapidly and earlier in the spring time. To such an extent that re-icing in autumn and winter does not replace anymore what has been lost during spring/summer. With the net result that the north pole ice cap has lost almost 2/3 of it's mass during the late few decades, and that, if nothing changes, north ice cap will completely disappear during summer in 10 to 20 years. Imagine, the north pole being only sea.
better to consult the facts first.
http://arctic-roos.org/observ[....]ation_images/ssmi1_ice_ext.png
On 2009-06-06 23:15:06, michka wrote:
And let me state one important thing: It is not climate change that is important, it is the speed at which it changes. Because if it goes too fast, we won't be able to adapt due to the way our society is organized.
Moreover, the raise in temperature we are discussing is a global phenomenon. Meaning that it is the mean values of the temperature over the all earth that is raising. Locally it can raise or drop dramatically depending on the reorganization of the atmospheric and sea currents, which can happen for very small changes in the temperaure.
One example: Due to the raise in temperature, most of the ice in Russia, Siberia etc. is melting and the resulting fresh water go into the arctic sea. Salt content of the sea water is changing, and as it is that salt content that is the motor driving the Gulfstream, the latter might well stop completely (it is already slowing down significantly). Unfortunately, the Gulfstream is one of the oceanic currents that redistribute the heat mostly received in the tropics. Once this happens, North America and Europe will completely freeze and no crop will grow anymore, followed by the death of most animal species.
Now, what will we do if this happens? The sad answer is: Invade the hotter countries south, which means wars for food.
you're talking nonsense. |
goldenface
Joined: Dec 17, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Liverpool City Centre
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@Brightspark.
All you're doing to posting links to graphs, without explaining them. While michka is at least explaining his answers.
I wish a hurricane would come and blow this thread away.
Bye!!!
[ This Message was edited by: goldenface on 2009-06-08 17:14 ] |
thomas93
Joined: Sep 28, 2007
Posts: 444
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And thats all ti is research.
I've read "research" but from the camp that says YES there is global warming. Your not quoting any facts, unless that's a crystal ball sat next to you?
(+10 -0) Wo Rld Tour 7 User! |
michka
Joined: May 17, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Brussels-Belgium
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@Brightspark: once again you give a link to a graph that only shows the annual variation of the northern ice cap.
How does this graph tell you the the ice cap is growing?
Pedestrian: don't run, my car is faster anyway. |
Bonovox
Joined: Apr 13, 2008
Posts: > 500
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Goldenface yes perhaps we shall have some bad weather soon to blow this thread away lol. I will never forget the day I was at work and we had a huge tornado in Birmingham  my dad was on holiday in Turkey and he read it in a paper whilst sitting by the pool. Can you imagine his shock lol. Tornado hits Birmingham only 3 miles from where we live and it was a bad one. Sorry went off topic I know tornados are nothing to do with global warming. Global wetting is my theory in the UK and Ireland anyway. Past 2 summers have been nothing but rain and so far this summer is starting off quite wet too and today considering its June its quite cool. If these ice caps are melting I believe we will see more rain as a result or even the winter we just had. Who knows?
Phone?? What phone?? |
carkitter
Joined: Apr 29, 2005
Posts: > 500
From: Auckland, NZ
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@Bonovox
You bring up another aspect of climate change theory that a lot of people believe in and that is that Extreme weather is a result of (man-made) climate change. I don't believe in that either, I think that's just superstition but I 'd be keen to see what others have to say about it.
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Posted: 2009-06-06 20:13
