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Goodbye, my Nokia mistress. Hello again SE, my true love. |
mib1800
Joined: Mar 18, 2004
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On 2007-12-09 12:02:03, islandprd wrote:
Ok. I get that 
It is like some say I grow up with my mom's home cooking so I find my mom home's cooking is the best. Not entirely wrong too, right? 
Nope. Nothing wrong with it. 
But if you want to find out whose mother make the best dishes the you need to judge based on some established merit. | |
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islandprd
Joined: Nov 29, 2007
Posts: 176
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@mib1800
well when it comes to personal taste or preference, there is no one size fit all. No method can accurately judge preferences just like whose mother make a better dishes as everyone has a different taste bud 
That why when comes to SE UI I say for those who think they have a best, so be it. The friendliness really depends on how one's getting used to it
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max_wedge
Joined: Aug 29, 2004
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From: Australia
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On 2007-12-09 12:15:05, mib1800 wrote:
On 2007-12-09 12:02:03, islandprd wrote:
Ok. I get that
It is like some say I grow up with my mom's home cooking so I find my mom home's cooking is the best. Not entirely wrong too, right?
Nope. Nothing wrong with it.
But if you want to find out whose mother make the best dishes the you need to judge based on some established merit.
mib you are demonstrating your unfamiliarity with SE UI and claiming some things as fact when you don't know the full story. Maybe you are judging someone else's cooking without really trying all it has to offer?
In Activity menu you can turn off the "highlight current events" setting, in which case pressing the activity menu will default to running apps if any apps are running, or your shortcuts list if no apps are running. So you can access a whole list of personalised shortcuts with one press, or two if apps are running. You can also access the main menu from the shortcut list (one press or two to bring up shortcut list, then press "up" twice to get to the main menu option (which as always at the very bottom of the shortcut list).
You can also access bookmarks with a press on activity menu and one right joystick movement (or two if java apps are running), or current events (appointments, missed calls etc) with a press of activity menu and left joystick (or two left joystick if no apps running). What's so hard about that? You can do all this without digging around in the main menu.
And if apps are running you can access the list of running apps with ONE PRESS (slightly easier than the long press of Nokia) of the activity menu. In using the SE UI you are letting your presumption of the SE UI being inflexible prevent you from actually exploring the settings and discovering what is actually possible.
You don't need to go to main menu to access apps. If you use apps frequently, you can create a shortcut to the applications folder at the top of your shortcut list.
However you can't create shortcuts to applications themselves, here s60 is better. Infact I agree that s60 has better options for modifiying the menu. But menu alone is not what makes a UI.
But the point is that the SE menu is a lot more flexible than the picture you are painting. You say you are doing your hardest to be objective yet you need to do some more homework before you can claim that objectivity.
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themarques
Joined: Jan 26, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: London, Tokyo,
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You know I think we need to all come to a realisation that this fight between SE vs Nokia or whoever will NEVER come to an end, you will pull you hair, crack some teeth but its all done to
preference |ˈprɛf(ə)r(ə)ns| noun
1) a greater liking for one alternative over another or others : a preference for Nokia over SonyEricsson | he chose a smart phone in preference to a dumb phone.
So really each to there own man just enjoy the features on your phone and quit trying to wedge that ounce of leverage to switch.
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max_wedge
Joined: Aug 29, 2004
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From: Australia
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I agree 100%. I often end up sticking up for SE when others are waxing lyrical about how bad they think SE is, and some think this means I'm an SE fan boy, but like dogmann I just get fed up with people espousing their own opinions as proof positive of how bad they think an OEM is.
As you say it comes down to preference. No one can make someone like a phone just because they think it is better than another. For example, if I don't like the UI in Nokia, why the hell should I have to buy one just because it has better application support. The UI is the main interface with the phone and to some the most important factor. I'm not saying SE UI is better for everyone, but for MY PURPOSES, it is better.
Likewise, if JAVA couldn't provide a person the application support they need, then they might be forced to use a smartphone, and if they prefer broad app availability, they would choose WM, then s60, then UIQ3 in that order.
This is why I still use WM with TS for my smartphone needs (actually a smartphone is technically a hardscreen device).
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[ This Message was edited by: max_wedge on 2007-12-10 02:34 ] |
mib1800
Joined: Mar 18, 2004
Posts: > 500
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@max_wedge:
Bearing in mind that this whole UI discussion stemmed from the person who said "SE UI is the best and Nokia UI is crap", I am just showing that in some areas SE UI is worse than Nokia UI. I am just highlighting the fallacy of this "SE UI is the best" by giving some design issues of SE UI. S60 also have design issues but then again I am NOT the one who said "Nokia UI is the best, SE UI is crap".
Instead of you of finding excuses for SE UI (see below) , answer the following:-
In Activity menu you can turn off the "highlight current events" setting, in which case pressing the activity menu will default to running apps if any apps are running, or your shortcuts list if no apps are running. So you can access a whole list of personalised shortcuts with one press, or two if apps are running.
In S60, you just press the "Goto" or "Multimedia" key anytime and your favorites are shown. From a design point of view (not your personal preferences), which is easier, less confusing and neater design?
You can also access the main menu from the shortcut list (one press or two to bring up shortcut list, then press "up" twice to get to the main menu option (which as always at the very bottom of the shortcut list).
In S60, yet again I just do ONE press on the "Menu" key. No fiddling here fiddling there in Activity Menu and needing up to 5 keypresses in SE UI. So which is better in usability?
You can also access bookmarks with a press on activity menu and one right joystick movement (or two if java apps are running), or current events (appointments, missed calls etc) with a press of activity menu and left joystick (or two left joystick if no apps running). What's so hard about that? You can do all this without digging around in the main menu.
What is hard about it? Maybe not much. BUT compare to S60 it is definitely HARDER. In S60, I long press menu I have the task manager. For events, I dont have to do anything as it is already in active stand-by screen. You dont agree?
You don't need to go to main menu to access apps. If you use apps frequently, you can create a shortcut to the applications folder at the top of your shortcut list.
What if I want to start an app which I have not put into shortcut? If you have many shortcuts then it takes you anywhere from 4 to 12 keypresses. In S60 you only need 2 or 3 keypress max. So which is more efficient?
And if apps are running you can access the list of running apps with ONE PRESS (slightly easier than the long press of Nokia) of the activity menu.
What IF you have turn on events?
In using the SE UI you are letting your presumption of the SE UI being inflexible prevent you from actually exploring the settings and discovering what is actually possible.
What are your answers to questions I posted to you above? If you dont answer YES to all above then I am right in saying you are trying to find excuses for SE UI.
And I am not presuming anything. SE UI may be good enough for most (se) users but compared to S60, it is definitely LESS FLEXIBLE.
And it is more CONFUSING and less ELEGANT.
- If you want to multi-task Java, you can't start the app from Main Menu but have to do it from Activity Menu.
- Why you need to flip the tab in Activity menu just to get to what you want?
- Why the Main Menu is icon-based but sub-menu is always list-based?
- Why is the most important screen (Main Menu) can only be accessed from standby?
[ This Message was edited by: mib1800 on 2007-12-10 05:20 ] |
max_wedge
Joined: Aug 29, 2004
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On 2007-12-10 05:18:30, mib1800 wrote:
@max_wedge:
Bearing in mind that this whole UI discussion stemmed from the person who said "SE UI is the best and Nokia UI is crap", I am just showing that in some areas SE UI is worse than Nokia UI. I am just highlighting the fallacy of this "SE UI is the best" by giving some design issues of SE UI. S60 also have design issues but then again I am NOT the one who said "Nokia UI is the best, SE UI is crap".
I agree that the stupid "SE UI is the best and Nokia UI is crap" comment isn't worth the time of day. I am simply responding to what you said, not what that guy said.
Since you accuse me of bullshitting about the SE UI, I am accusing you of finding whiny excuses for SE UI (see below)
I never accused you of bullshitting about anything. Forget the other guy I wasn't even thinking about that when I responded to you. But the fact is you made some claims that show your ignorance of the SE UI.
Answer the following:-
In S60, you just press the "Goto" or "Multimedia" key anytime and your favorites are shown. From a design point of view (not your personal preferences), which is easier, less confusing and neater design?
On SE, when you press "activity menu" it goes straight to Shortcut menu, unless apps are running. Either way there is nothing complicated or "not neat" about it. On a non-smart platform you generally access apps on a needs basis, and don't all that often have background apps running, so 95% of the time pressing activity menu gets you straight to the shortcut list, no different to Nokia favourites. If you have apps running it's one more key press, hardly the drama you seem to believe it is (However it's one press as opposed to a long press to access running apps, a slight advantage over Nokia)
In S60, yet again I just do ONE press on the "Menu" key. No fiddling here fiddling there in Activity Menu and needing up to 5 keypresses in SE UI. So which is better in usability?
If you place your main menu option at the top of the shortcut list, you can acess main menu by pressing activitymenu/centre joystick. Not that much more complicated than s60. While I agree a dedicated Menu button would be useful, if you have too many dedicated buttons there are less buttons that can be configured by the user. I'd rather see the ability to make the "internet" button configurable to whatever the end user chooses. The only dedicated button imho should be the activity menu.
What is hard about it? Maybe not much. BUT compare to S60 it is definitely HARDER. In S60, I long press menu I have the task manager. For events, I dont have to do anything as it is already in active stand-by screen. You dont agree?
ON SE UI you have icons in the status bar alerting you to current tasks, appointments messages and calls, visible from within most screens of the UI, without having to exit to standby screen at all. You also have the current alerts visible in screensaver mode. So you need only look at your phone to know if any alerts are current, no need to press any buttons at all.
What if I want to start an app which I have not put into shortcut? If you have many shortcuts then it takes you anywhere from 4 to 12 keypresses. In S60 you only need 2 or 3 keypress max. So which is more efficient?
this is a deficiency of j2me on SE handsets. You cannot create shortcuts to java apps. (and also Nokia I believe? though it's a mute point since you can create shortcuts to s60 apps). So the best you can do is create a shortcut to the "applications" folder in your shortcut list.
You can use hacking methods to create shortcuts to java apps in main menu (as opposed to within "applications" folder) which you can then add to your shortcuts list, but this is only for the power user and not relevant to general end user discussions. It's also not a supported SE feature.
What IF you have turn on events?
if you turn off events, they will still be visible both on the status bar, and also in the activity menu, all that is different is that when you press activity menu, it won't default to displaying the current events tab, it will default instead to the shortcuts or running apps tab.
What are your answers to questions I posted to you above? If you dont answer YES to all above then I am right in saying you are trying to find excuses for SE UI.
No because you don't have a complete inderstanding of the UI. Read my answers above and you may be more enlightened Besides you have covered only a very small aspect of UI features and processes, so it hardly classifies as a definitive comparison of pros and cons of each UI
And I am not presuming anything. SE UI may be good enough for most (se) users but compared to S60, it is definitely LESS FLEXIBLE and more CHAOTIC.
yes, but far better than any other non smartphone out there, and better than some smartphones too.
e.g. If you want to multi-task Java, you can't start the app from Main Menu but from Activity Menu. Why you need to flip the tab in Activity menu just to get to what you want?
you don't, you can access main menu in two button presses if you set it up that way. Not as good as s60 but hardly worth complaining about?
[quote]
Why the Main Menu is icon-based but sub-menu is always list-based?
fair question, this is one of the area the UI fails compared to s60.
Why is the most important screen (Main Menu) can only be accessed from standby?
not true, two button presses from within any area of the phone menu. You do not have to go to stanby screen to access main menu. This is one of those presumptions you make that I speak of
(anyway a long hold of the"back" key takes you to standby prompty.)
btw, I'm enjoying this discussion, good to know there are people here who can engage in proper debate (along with dogmann of course) about something rather than resorting to slanging matches
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[ This Message was edited by: max_wedge on 2007-12-10 05:26 ] |
max_wedge
Joined: Aug 29, 2004
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From: Australia
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On 2007-12-10 05:18:30, mib1800 wrote:
And it is more CONFUSING and less ELEGANT.
matter of opinion, with which I disagree. I do have these desires of SE UI: java apps should be shortcutable, and the internet should be a user configurable button (ie: make it main menu if you want). But other than that, as to confusing I don't find it so. I do find it elegant, and I find it efficient given that you cannot change main menu items the way you can in s60. For me, the shortcut list satisfies the same purpose that Nokia address by having changeable menu items.
- If you want to multi-task Java, you can't start the app from Main Menu but have to do it from Activity Menu.
You can go into main menu/applications/ and start the app that way, if it is already running it will task switch to it. You don't start an app from the activity menu, you start an app from the applications folder. Once it is running you can access it quickly and easily via the activity menu.
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islandprd
Joined: Nov 29, 2007
Posts: 176
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Guys, arent you guys debating, I like my fries curly vs I like my fries straight, kindda thing?
@Max or Anyone else
Do you guys know how to hack or adjust the font size (enlarge) while reading the inbox text messages? Thanks
[ This Message was edited by: islandprd on 2007-12-10 06:05 ] |
max_wedge
Joined: Aug 29, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Australia
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there is a method but I'v enever used it myself, I suggest searching the se-nse.net forums
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mib1800
Joined: Mar 18, 2004
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@max_wedge:
On SE, when you press "activity menu" it goes straight to Shortcut menu, unless apps are running. Either way there is nothing complicated or "not neat" about it.
This is what I call "not neat" or incoherent. Why dump everything (fav/task/events) into Activity Menu and expect users to dig thru it to find what they are looking for? In S60 it is more coherent. E,g menu key is all about app. Press once to see all installed app. Long press to see running app.
not true, two button presses from within any area of the phone menu. You do not have to go to stanby screen to access main menu. This is one of those presumptions you make that I speak of
(anyway a long hold of the"back" key takes you to standby prompty.)
Either you jump to main menu via link in activity menu or long press of back key, it still makes Main Menu hidden deep. This is a flaw in the design. Like I say, the main menu is the most important screen and should be able accessible quickly from anywhere.
You can go into main menu/applications/ and start the app that way, if it is already running it will task switch to it. You don't start an app from the activity menu, you start an app from the applications folder. Once it is running you can access it quickly and easily via the activity menu.
Correct me if I am wrong, but if you are running an app and you want to keep it open, you still have go to thru activity menu then the apps folder to start another app.
I am not saying SE UI is crap or anything like that. But coming from a smart OS UI like S60, I would expect SE "non-smart" UI to be "simpler". But in fact I find it more cumbersome to use than S60. And add to the fact that the A100/200 came out long after the S60.
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max_wedge
Joined: Aug 29, 2004
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On 2007-12-10 07:54:15, mib1800 wrote:
@max_wedge:
This is what I call "not neat" or incoherent. Why dump everything (fav/task/events) into Activity Menu and expect users to dig thru it to find what they are looking for? In S60 it is more coherent. E,g menu key is all about app. Press once to see all installed app. Long press to see running app.
No matter what you say, you will never fit all your installed apps in one screen of your main menu, you will still need to scroll to access some items. I see the shortcut list to applications folder as no different.
Either you jump to main menu via link in activity menu or long press of back key, it still makes Main Menu hidden deep. This is a flaw in the design. Like I say, the main menu is the most important screen and should be able accessible quickly from anywhere.
I don't agree that a two button press access to main menu compared to Nokia's one button press should be classified as a flaw in design. I don't disagree the option for a one button main menu option is better, but only by such a slight margin that I don't feel it impacts in any serious way on SE UI usability.
Correct me if I am wrong, but if you are running an app and you want to keep it open, you still have go to thru activity menu then the apps folder to start another app.
Yes that is correct. Here, as I have agreed, since SE doesn't allow shortcuts to java apps, the only way to start a java app from scratch is through the "applications" folder. So if you have a shortcut to "applications" on the top of the activity menu shortcut list, accessing a list of your applications while within another app, you would need to press activity menu, right joy, then "applications" before you would be in the list of apps. It is more cumbersome than s60, but SE could solve it with the ability to add shortcuts for java apps. I have heard that SE have this is on the agenda, but I'm not sure of the reliabilty of that info. Keep in mind that if an app is buried 8 deep in your list of apps, you are going to have to scroll down to it anyway, so the addition of the couple of extra presses needed to access the "applications" folder initially doesn't much to the total presses needed to access the app.
This is why I think that while on paper there are some extra steps needed at some points, in practice it is very seemless and efficient. Atleast I find it so, and I have played extensively with my N70 trying to compare usability and I find no particular advantage in accessing apps on the N70 than I do on the K800. But I'm prepared to accept that it may be just my personal preferences.
I am not saying SE UI is crap or anything like that. But coming from a smart OS UI like S60, I would expect SE "non-smart" UI to be "simpler". But in fact I find it more cumbersome to use than S60. And add to the fact that the A100/200 came out long after the S60.
Personally I would expect a smart os to be simpler, due to increased customisability. The less customisation that is available, the more the end user is forced to do things the way the OEM wants them to do it. For me SE has a high degree of customisability for a non-smartphone, that sets it apart from motorola, samsung, and even Nokia s40.
Apart from the lack of custom shortcuts for java apps, I find the UI very efficient.
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mib1800
Joined: Mar 18, 2004
Posts: > 500
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@max_wedge:
No matter what you say, you will never fit all your installed apps in one screen of your main menu, you will still need to scroll to access some items. I see the shortcut list to applications folder as no different.
Just a little more on this.
This is where the customisable menu of S60 scores big time. You see I create my own sub-menus like "Organiser", "Tools", "WebApp" etc. And I put the sub-menu at the alphabet key position e.g. Organiser at "6", Tools at "8". And in the submenu, I put the app icons according to the alphabet as well. So to start any app, I need at most 2 or 3 keypress i.e. menu key->submenu postion key->app position key. Just keeping the menu to just 12 positions, I can have up to 144 app icons. I dont have to remember postions as I can easily relate the app to the T9.
With this I dont even need to setup any Favorites in S60. On the other hand "Favorites" in the SE Activity Menu still requires more keypress instead of the 2 or 3 in S60.
I think what SE should do is convert "activity menu" key to "menu". Since in standby you can assign 7 shortcuts to the joystick and softkeys, you can do away with Fav in activity menu. For running task, SE can do like S60 (i.e. long press) or just put an icon in main menu.
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islandprd
Joined: Nov 29, 2007
Posts: 176
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I just want to point out the other side of the coin.
If so many people are ok with SE UI and not having meaningful problem navigating it, but to the persistent few who keep finding it difficult or dramatically flawed, then there must be something wrong somewhere
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mib1800
Joined: Mar 18, 2004
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On 2007-12-10 13:41:43, islandprd wrote:
I just want to point out the other side of the coin.
If so many people are ok with SE UI and not having meaningful problem navigating it, but to the persistent few who keep finding it difficult or dramatically flawed, then there must be something wrong somewhere
SE UI users may not have meaningful problem from but that doesnt mean SE UI is better than S60. I have given proof of nine aspects where S60 UI is more efficient and coherent in design. Obviously you think SE UI is better, so for meaningful debate, you may want to come out with some points where SE UI is better instead of falling back to the exit position of "there is no right or wrong as everyone has their own preferences"
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Posted: 2007-12-09 12:15
