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Nokia N82 or P1? For use for camera, music, ROM gaming, Internet, in USA |
Nipsen
Joined: Jul 31, 2007
Posts: > 500
From: Noway
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On 2007-12-06 09:57:08, mib1800 wrote:
My N95 last me 48 hrs with moderate use. So will you be so stupid to say the with my kind of usage your P1 can last 9 days? Wait... you will 
Did I say the battery- life on the p1 was relative to the battery- life on the n95?
Anyway. So describe what you mean by "moderate" use.
The p1 Whiki - report your bugs, and add feature requests here. "Brothers and Sisters, believe! Believe in the salvation of Demand Paging, 'eah!" | |
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jakontil
Joined: Jun 28, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Changi, Chatswood, Cikarang
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if you are in USA, why don't you consider an AT&T Tilt? |
Dogmann
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: > 500
From: London England
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@Nipsen
You have just proved how amazeing you really are as to try and show how bad the battery is you pick a review of the device from April more or less when first released not a review from the improvements and changes that have been made with the new firmwares and claim this is the current situation. Totally failing to take into account the differences the new firmwares have made and especially demand paging.
I don't know about anyone else but i really can't be bothered trying to discuss things with someone that is just so out of touch with reality, especially one that claims his P1 lasts 4.5 days we the use age you claim.
Maybe those with a genuine interest could follow this link and then the link to the results as it will give you a better idea of just how much difference Demand Paging does actually make.
http://www.allaboutsymbian.co[....]_gives_20_better_battery_l.php
Marc
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Honoured to have won BEST DEBATER
[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2007-12-06 12:31 ] |
mib1800
Joined: Mar 18, 2004
Posts: > 500
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@benjijk
Can you briefly explain to me with a little physics, chemistry and math if required, how much battery are you seriously gaining or losing by loading 70mb into RAM as opposed to 10MB? Claiming better and improved battery life with demand paging seems rather silly to me.
Simple maths here. You need to load extra 60Mb from the ROM (meaning you need more power to access the ROM reader interface, bus, cpu and RAM). It is confirmed by many N95 users with new v20 firmware battery life is better by 25%. I am not saying all this saving came from demand paging alone. Some may be due to firmware optimisation.
For P1i demand paging may not be that essential as it has a lot of RAM but for N95-1 it is much needed as it free up more RAM. But having demand paging have added benefit (even for P1) as large program starts up much faster because it only needs to load part of the code. (In your example, it is time saved between loading 10Mb and 70Mb into RAM).
Will I die or grow old cos my P1 took 3 seconds longer than your N-series to load the web browser? Goodness people... how much more childish can this get?
It is not just about starting program. It is also applies to when you are browsing. I have seen my classmate's P1 Opera rendering web-pages. Opera on my N95 is considerably faster (let's not even mention the nokia safari browser). While we are at it, let's not mention messaging app either  . Well, 3 secs here, 3 secs there slowly adds up to a lot of time.  .
Also, my p1 lasts me 2 days with moderate use and a lot of wifi browsing. And that's with close to 20 applications including tomtom running in the background.
With demand paging my N95-1 now has more apps running in the background than before (e.g. cam,mp3,gallery,ivcm,smschat,bestprofile,quikey,mini-gps, handy-clock) without issue.
For my N95-1 v20 firmware, I can also squeeze 48hrs continuously with "moderate" use (which will be less than your "moderate" use). My moderate use over a 48hrs period (starting at 6 pm) is 1.5 hrs talk, 10-15sms, 30-45min wifi+web, couple of photos, ~1hr of music and ~1hr min of other phone/PIM use.
At the end of 48 hrs, I usually have 1 or 2 bars left. My screen is set at 3/4 brightness and I am on 3G mode. If I set to gsm mode only, I can get extra 1/2 day of uptime. My area has strong signal all the time.
[ This Message was edited by: mib1800 on 2007-12-06 13:46 ] |
okalyddude
Joined: Nov 03, 2007
Posts: 17
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Not going for the ATT tilt because im in Istanbul right now.. its actually proving difficult to find a tytn ii, most stores are telling me they are still waiting... and the taxes on electronics are high.. i may have to order one from england and have it sent to france to a friends and have it brought back after xmas.. i wanted it sooner though..
Also to get the att tilt you need a service plan, and i was going to avoid having one for a while and stick to prepaid cards and wifi, at least while im in turkey and then maybe traveling more without knowing where i will be..
And to bejıjk
im going to assume that viruses are about as likely on both operating systems and if not, there is vırus protection..
and the OS that you mentioned - is that the google one? i actually have strongly considered waiting for it:.. what phones will it be on? Could i wipe the OS off a tytn and install it? The OS is obvıosly a strong part of the phone but the other aspects are what im looking at.. a US broadband connection i will eventually want, a keyboard, gps, decent camera.. and the windows OS has many more apps, skype, bıt torrent (i dont have a laptop remember?) and emulators etc.. i need a true pocket PC not just a cool multimedia phone..
and as far as crashing goes i had to hard reset my p1 all the time still trying to figure out what not to install and what not to run and how quıckly to do things.. i imagine that anythıng else is the same, just be careful and keep track of what you are doıng, be ready to trouble shoot.. macs arent perfect, neıther ıs uıq3 and im just goıng out on a lımb to say that neıther ıs symbıan or wındows mobile... technology, go fıgure
but if ı have to waıt for a tıme to get my tytn ii ı wıll have tıme to reconsıder ıt..
tell me more about the google phone OS and such |
Nipsen
Joined: Jul 31, 2007
Posts: > 500
From: Noway
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Mm. I was looking for the same thing - something I could replace my laptop with - and I couldn't really find it. We're just not there yet. But.. if you find something that has the programs and the functions you want (in my case, text- editing, cut&paste, and so on), then that'll take you a long way of course.
For example, both s60 and WM has a video- editor, which uiq hasn't, and some sound- recording and mixing tools. The same goes for a few windows networking tasks, like filesharing over smb. Not available for uiq until Symsmb turns up. On the other hand, it's not like everything is available for WM either, and it's designed to be a companion to a desktop windows system. Also, the multitasking can be a problem, with hangs and so on. Even if that can be circumvented to a large degree by being careful about what you start at the same time, and so on.
But - it's difficult to really get an impression of it without trying. And I've not spent so much time with a WM unit that I can say something either way on that. I mean, I know people who are perfectly happy with their WM units. But I know they aren't typically copying text off the browser, putting it in a text- document, having a pdf open at the same time, while listening to music, etc.
@dogmann and mib:
The "article" dogmann linked to as well says it suggests the phone lasts about 20% longer on operations that are not cpu- intensive. And that's compared to the earlier versions, such as the one I tested, and like the one in the test I linked to. Other than that, the n95 still has a pretty high use of battery in standby, something that helps a lot with preventing it from getting past the second day, even on light use. And anyone can test that, for crying out loud.
Simple maths here. You need to load extra 60Mb from the ROM (meaning you need more power to access the ROM reader interface, bus, cpu and RAM).
That's only the constant operation on startup. So it's a tradeoff that works extremely well on s60 - because it both allows more programs to be loaded at the same time, and makes the phone load from the flash- rom a lot less.
Still - I'm sure you see that this would have given very few benefits (and even drawbacks because of the overhead) if running out of ram (because of bloated libraries) wasn't a problem in the first place... Since then there would be few of those constant operations on startup?
And, you know, I have a hard time being very impressed with a developer that takes a year to understand that putting every program- function in the feature pack into one huge library - when they know resources is a problem. And then fixes that not by ironing things out, but adding an OS function to circumvent the bad solution they chose at the beginning. And, you know, literally unlocking their device for use as it was meant to be from the first day. Seriously, that's not something anyone (should) brag about.
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[ This Message was edited by: Nipsen on 2007-12-06 16:18 ] |
Dogmann
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: > 500
From: London England
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@Nipsen
What and none of these problems exist in UIQ3 then? are you sure about that as my understanding is UIQ3 is not as well optimized as S60.
Which is why what ever you want to believe S60 has more free Ram on boot from the same installed Ram then UIQ3 does, also S60 is faster in all that it does as it's software is less bloated and simply more efficient even without the added functionality of demand paging.
You really need to think of the faults that UIQ3 has before accusing S60 of having them especially as it suffers to a lesser degree. Also much of what you complain about is due to Symbian 9.1 but one OS still handles these issues better than the other does.
Plus the very simple fact that S60 has manged to implement Demand Paging now helps resolves these issues and makes things better, trust me UIQ3 would benefit greatly if it could also have Demand Paging now as said by some of your fellow SE UIQ3 users who actually know what they are talking about and know exactly why they would like to have it.
Marc
_________________
Nokia N95 8GB, SU-8W, Fring, Vox, Tom Tom 6, Shure EC2g
Honoured to have won BEST DEBATER
[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2007-12-06 16:34 ] |
Nipsen
Joined: Jul 31, 2007
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From: Noway
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On 2007-12-06 17:34:38, Dogmann wrote:
Plus the very simple fact that S60 has manged to implement Demand Paging now helps resolves these issues and makes things better, trust me UIQ3 would benefit greatly if it could also have Demand Paging now as said by some of your fellow SE UIQ3 users who actually know what they are talking about and know exactly why they would like to have it.
That is obviously your opinion. But you've drank the koolaid, and I don't care how you rehash the nokia propaganda- stick - you're just plain wrong technically.
The p1 Whiki - report your bugs, and add feature requests here. "Brothers and Sisters, believe! Believe in the salvation of Demand Paging, 'eah!" |
Dogmann
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: > 500
From: London England
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@Nipsen
Yet again all you claim about how bad S60 exists in UIQ3 to a much greater extent and that really is the reality what you try and claim and apparently seem to believe is just not true pure and simple. You really are exhibiting delusional behaviour what Nokia Propaganda machine can you not see just how absurd some of your comments really are.
You really are clutching at straws in your denial of the facts, dragging up posts from 7months ago and ignoring any improvement's since then. It really is just not realistic the same as most of your fictional statements as facts.
Marc
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Nokia N95 8GB, SU-8W, Fring, Vox, Tom Tom 6, Shure EC2g
Honoured to have won BEST DEBATER
[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2007-12-06 20:13 ] |
benjijk
Joined: Oct 23, 2007
Posts: 64
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@ Okalydude
Regarding your idea of using virus protection; on a phone with a mini processor with limited speeds, RAM and other limitations, adding anti virus software only slows things down further. This is very evident on Windows computers. (Hopefully it'll be a while before stuff like that surfaces on the Mac. I've read reports of viruses on Macs, but Apple currently does a good job at fixing loopholes, for now at least. ) But that is something worth thinking about. Its not practical to run antivirus software on a phone. The system better be robust enough to prevent attacks. And you're right, viruses can be easily created on any OS.
Regarding Google Android, I think you should wait a while. For the past few years trying new technologies has always been disappointing the first time around. So now I've learned to wait until the bugs and kinks are resolved and worked out. I don't jump on the 'new & cool' bandwagon anymore. There's millions of kids out there to do that.
To say the truth I feel the same way about the P1 (sigh... I guess I never learn, but then the P1 had a UIQ3 predecessor like the P990.) There are quite a few things that I would love to see fixed in the p1, and lately SE seems to be disappointing me. They release a lot of products with very minor enhancements each time. Looks good on the exterior but buggy in software and hardware. So even if they were to release the P3 or P5 whatever, I'm going to hold off on it. And I hope other users will do the same, if just to teach SE a lesson that they cannot get away with releasing crappy products at high prices. |
Nipsen
Joined: Jul 31, 2007
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On 2007-12-06 21:13:04, Dogmann wrote:
Yet again all you claim about how bad S60 exists in UIQ3 to a much greater extent and that really is the reality what you try and claim and apparently seem to believe is just not true pure and simple. You really are exhibiting delusional behaviour what Nokia Propaganda machine can you not see just how absurd some of your comments really are.
*sigh*..I'm saying that you've taken information that applies to s60 only, from some eager nokia- evangelist, and translated it over to apply to UIQ. Which you wouldn't do if you knew what you were talking about.
Or do you deny that the only reason you've brought up demand paging is that nokia- developers have suggested this results in immense improvements (..at least on s60, anyway)? Because that's what I'm referring to - "propaganda" which is correct in the case of s60, for various different reasons - but which is not as generally applicable as some want to think, or like you claim repeatedly on the basis of.. nothing. Neither is demand paging something awesomely new, or invented by nokia at the envy of everyone else. Nor does it have to give improvements "automatically", like I know some press- release from nokia said earlier on.
So - I've described in detail what exactly the reasons for the improvements are. And anyone can check this, what demand paging is, and how improvements would happen because of it - so shut yer trap.
You really are clutching at straws in your denial of the facts, dragging up posts from 7months ago and ignoring any improvement's since then. It really is just not realistic the same as most of your fictional statements as facts.
Er... do you deny that the 20% improvement is an estimate compared to the earlier versions, then? So, that this particular review is irrelevant? Because of the unspecific but immense improvements since then? Even if the n95 I tested a couple of months ago had the same kind of battery life? I.e, it had to be recharged every day on "normal" use?
If so, come up with some explanation on what exactly you are suggesting, and how much the improvement is in real terms. For instance, how long you would be able to use your phone, with what sort of use, before and after the upgrade. But save the elliptic rhetoric for something else, we've derailed the thread more than enough already.
The p1 Whiki - report your bugs, and add feature requests here. "Brothers and Sisters, believe! Believe in the salvation of Demand Paging, 'eah!" |
Dogmann
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: > 500
From: London England
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@Nipsen
Well first off it is not Nokia that have invented Demand Paging but Symbian and if you had followed the progress of it's development you would of known this was not expected to appear on devices before they were running Symbian 9.3 or even 9.5. This applied to both S60 and UIQ and is what people have been looking forward to as it improves performance no one doesn't want Demand Paging and your claims of how irrelevant it is just not correct.
So again you are very badly informed about what you are saying as UIQ will also get Demand paging but it appears not yet and what ever you think Demand Paging is a major step forward to resolving some of the Ram issues that arose with Symbian 9.1.
There is no need to be rude so refrain from telling me to
"so shut yer trap"
Especially when if anyone it should be you who clearly hasn't a clue what you are talking about do You?
Marc
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Nokia N95 8GB, SU-8W, Fring, Vox, Tom Tom 6, Shure EC2g
Honoured to have won BEST DEBATER
[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2007-12-06 23:56 ] |
Nipsen
Joined: Jul 31, 2007
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First, demand paging was not invented by Symbian either. It's about as old as the first memory manager.
And the current s60 feature pack runs on symbian 9.3, which does provide the framework for demand paging (and this was announced a while ago).
But, again, the benefit from it is minimal unless you access big libraries often. And that's the point.
And just cut out the "you're delusional" crap. Just.. do your research, and then speak. More useful for everyone.
The p1 Whiki - report your bugs, and add feature requests here. "Brothers and Sisters, believe! Believe in the salvation of Demand Paging, 'eah!" |
Dogmann
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: > 500
From: London England
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@Nipsen
Well yes you are correct invent is not the correct terminology but it was you that said that just because i thought Nokia invented it where as it should of said implemented it.
Just for a change you are again wrong as the N95's are Symbian 9.2 not 9.3 and this is why it was unexpected and this time. It really doesn't matter how many times you say it Demand paging is a big advancement and not insignificant at all so you are wrong and on this point and will never be right.
Also all UIQ users will be very happy once it is implemented on their UI as well done to how much it will improve their user experience and to think or say anything different just makes no sense.
Marc
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Nokia N95 8GB, SU-8W, Fring, Vox, Tom Tom 6, Shure EC2g
Honoured to have won BEST DEBATER
[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2007-12-07 01:00 ] |
Nipsen
Joined: Jul 31, 2007
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They didn't "implement it" either. Nokia implemented a version based on the framework provided in symbian OS. They didn't "implement it" any more than Microsoft managed the feat of "implementing" tcp/ip.
And as far as I know, featurepack 1, which the n95 came with, is based on symbian 9.2, featurepack 2 is based on 9.3. Which does have the demand paging framework. And how difficult is it to find this out, before yapping on about how people are delusional, and how unbelievably incredible everything nokia does must be?
Also, again, the obvious thing with future uiq versions would be to include larger common graphics- libraries of different kinds, as well as open up for larger code- depositories for use in uiq development. But until then, and until these libraries become embedded with the phone's basic software - there is no point in having demand paging. It would be like implementing a factory line for producing one car. And that's just how it is.
But one useful way to use demand paging would for example be if a program used a part of a component in, say, opera, for rendering a part of a viewport with opera's html interpreter. In which case only parts of the application would need to be loaded, and that would save time, resources and so on.
But without that sort of scenario, if for example an application wanted to use a freely available graphics library - the developer could embed that in the application instead, and split the libraries in efficient parts designed for that particular application. (Which would incidentally also fit very well with the general philosophy of open development in UIQ.) In which case there would be no point whatsoever to have an extra software layer on top of that to save miniscule amounts of ram. Another thing is the way the programs would have to be compiled, and it could well be that it would be necessary in the end to load fairly large amounts of ram at a time after all, because of for instance constant pauses because of loads after an application had started.
So to recap - it depends whether it's useful.
(And yes, I'm going to harp on this until you break down and cry bitter tears).
The p1 Whiki - report your bugs, and add feature requests here. "Brothers and Sisters, believe! Believe in the salvation of Demand Paging, 'eah!" | |
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Posted: 2007-12-06 11:19
