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Nokia N82 or P1? For use for camera, music, ROM gaming, Internet, in USA |
mib1800
Joined: Mar 18, 2004
Posts: > 500
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On 2007-12-04 08:32:36, razec wrote:
@Mib:
confusing and user unfriendly UIQ3.
another post that shows your emotionally based judgements towards SE  have you held/used a UIQ 3 for a matter of time, seriously? many UIQ users especially from esato had reported WM being less optimized for TS than UIQ and UIQ had better input capabilities than WM. that's what you call confusing and unuser-friendly
I have tried UIQ3 phone before. If you come from a UIQ phone then of course you may not find it difficult but coming from a conventional phone, then it is pretty user unfriendly without the joypad and selection key. The side-scroll button is just not designed for one-handed use. Even full qwerty phone from WM and Palm caters to one-handed "conventional" use much better with inclusion of a joypad. My view on UIQ3 unfriendliness is limited to SE UIQ devices in general.
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Tsepz_GP
Joined: Dec 27, 2006
Posts: > 500
From: Johannesburg, South Africa
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Id say get N82 its an N-Gage platform phone so it has a lot coming for it, the Web browser for OS9 phones like N80, N93i, N95 and N82 is GREAT! I usually use it to come on to Esato full HTML when Opera Mini gives me problems. It has the better camera with Xenon flash. Also it SHOULD be a lot faster around the Menus, Apps, Games etc. . . than the P1. Yep s60 has LOADS more apps and the games are brilliant especialy the N-Gage v2.0 games. N82 would be a great choice since atleast you will have EDGE.
The TyTN-II is also a good one but as far as i know doesnt realy have any kind of 3D Graphics acceleration so its not the best for gaming.
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QVGA
Joined: May 23, 2006
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From: Pakistan
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N82 has 4h 20min talk time compared to 10h talk time of P1. I dont know how those can be compared. Everyone knows SE makes the best batteries.
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doministry
Joined: Apr 13, 2007
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From: PL
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BTW,
I'd never call UiQ3 user unfriendly.
For me it's an completely logical system.
a w a r e |
_LAU_
Joined: Sep 10, 2004
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From: Zeta Reticuli Phones:.P1;.P910
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UIQ3 is like any other new system. It takes some time to get used, but since there are so few places to click, it's easy to find what you need.
Au contraire, in WM every programmer designs it's own interface and there is no rules whatsoever. You never know what to expect every time you open a new application.
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Dogmann
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: > 500
From: London England
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@Nipsen
Well really i am stunned i have never read so much one sided biased rubbish ever you whole post is just a deluded vision of reality. How anyone can dare criticize any other OS for being buggy and unstable and taking time to reach it potential is just hysterical especially as it is not even true all and any problems where resolved quickly unlike UIQ that took a Year and required users to force a final firmware. As SE with UIQ3 took this to a whole new level with the now infamous Your device has device has restarted to improve performance message.
Oh please explain to me about Demand Paging then as it is an upgrade to the Symbian OS that wasn't expected to be seen until we had devices with Symbian 9.3 or 9.5 as very obviously you don't have a clue. Especially as some of your more knowledgeable UIQ users have already said if Nokia can do this both for both the N95 8GB and the original N95 why can't SE do it for us UIQ users.
The facts are very simple and these are that Demand Paging enables a far more efficient and faster utilisation of Ram. This results in a faster boot time 22 seconds on the N95 8gb and more free Ram which is why a Nokia with 128mb of installed Ram has 90mb free on boot up compared to UIQ's 70mb and how long past a minute does a UIQ device take to boot up. The S60 OS is much faster in everything it does than UIQ yes that's right everything no 3-5 seconds to open a message or Calendar app it's instantaneous.
Battery life again due to demand Paging offers improved performance of approx 25% extra battery life so again you are totally and utterly wrong.
But please do try and support your case and explain why all that i have said is wrong then if you can i await your answer with anticipation.
Oh and incase you thinking i am makeing things up here are 3 screen shots of my device one from boot up with free ram and then showing 14 apps running and i still have more Free Ram thanks to Deamnd pageing then a UIQ Device at boot up.
Marc
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[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2007-12-04 18:25 ] |
Nipsen
Joined: Jul 31, 2007
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..."all problems" were resolved "quickly"? Come on. You still have hangs on n- series units, (and the uptimes don't really approach months, like on the p1, now do they?).
But look. I never said UIQ is perfect. It isn't. It has clear weaknesses, particularly on speed (and maybe connectivity options) - and as you know the p990 and m600 really were designed with too little ram to really make use of the UIQ model very efficiently - with having all the programs open, etc.
But.. it's perfectly evident to anyone who have used an n- series phone and a p1 or an m600 for any length of time that the battery- usage is like night and day. For the early n95 - well.. it's not much to brag about. And none of that really is possible to dispute - the battery drains fast on the n- series phones, and for all the features available, that's just how it is. So, as I said, it's a matter of priorities. Neither is it disputable that the increase in battery is an estimate (given at 20% where I read it, at least, and that it's a comparison between the early and later n95s.) So what does that mean in practice? It's still nowhere near the p1 on similar daily usage, even if it's a welcome upgrade for many who use s60.
As far as demand paging goes - demand paging means, briefly, that instead of loading the entire shelf of dictionaries into your backpack every time you're supposed to look something up, you instead just pick the book you want and leave the rest - every time you go for a trip to the library.
And that means 1. smaller amounts of ram will typically be loaded at runtime when larger libraries are involved (which is not always - well written programs for mobiles will split resources into more strategically shaped libraries(...sorted shelfs?) to avoid this problem, and they will also aim to do so in order to stop the phone from constantly loading large unusable areas. In short, a well written small program for a mobile will not benefit from the demand paging model that has been talked about in relation to the n82 and new n95 firmware. If I wanted to be nasty, I could say that once again nokia has decided to reward badly written code, for example.)
2. More overhead. Implementing a memory manager, however simple, will incur overhead. And dynamic addresses will be a way to generate unpredictable program errors. Something which typically means implementing something like this comes at the absolute bottom of the list, and was in fact only taken up by nokia because of the memory- problems on the n95, with closing programs and so on.
And the fact of the matter is that the way battery is saved in this case, is primarily from how the programs are not loaded from the flash- ram again and again every time they're opened. Which, obviously, is a very good idea for s60, which has prioritised code for optimising the program currently running in the front. So all in all, a good idea, which brings s60 up to a very decent level.
And I agree with you that introducing this is a huge plus for s60 and the n- series in general, and I can do nothing but commend nokia for not forcing their customers to buy yet another unit (n95-1, n95 8gb, n95-3) in order to benefit from the upgrade, like they tend to do.
But on the other hand, this is not a fix- all, and it's not going to just work without any drawbacks. Imagine, for example, a program that actually does need a lot of ram to run - in that case, the problem with having to switch back and forth between programs will return, and because the memory model, probably at a higher cost in cleaning up memory and reclaiming address blocks. Neither is it possible to escape that there are undeniably other optimisations on the nokia feature- pack that has been done in addition to the things mentioned in the propaganda stick.
And, you know, believe me, if UIQ devices somehow managed to eat 20mb of internal memory from opening basic connectivity tools, I would be complaining about it - loudly, and repeatedly.
In any case - it bears to be mentioned that the strategy chosen on uiq was different, and that they've walked parallel, but different paths compared to s60. S60 aimed to emulate how the earlier mobile devices worked, and UIQ took a, perhaps too long, step ahead. And it wasn't really successful until arguably perhaps the p1 (the p990 was, no doubt about it, a disaster in many ways) - but nevertheless - it is designed to save memory operations by using the simple memory manager it has, and it does so successfully. Through switching contexts within a more or less constant rate when within internal memory. Which is usable, and predictable, and some - including me - value that more than smoother animations on the buttons.
Of course - when demand paging is included in Symbian 9.3 and 9.5 (which is why it turns up on the n- series feature pack v2), it's predictable that some form of it will be migrated over to the newer UIQ versions. And that a new memory- manager will be written, quite possibly along with bigger projects that will be included in order to benefit from it - for instance larger database- depositories and graphics- libraries.
But again - it's not a fix- all, and it's not going to "magically" increase the response- times, like some eager nokia- propagandists insist is the case. But it did undoubtedly increase the performance on the n- series. Which, as I said, there are different explanations for.
Anyway - I just wanted to point this out so we can avoid some unpleasantness: I use an uiq phone, and I love it to bits. It's the best phone I've ever had. But I won't recommend it to my father, for example. He'd be stuck trying to push it around for fifteen minutes, and end up calling the wrong person. And I don't dispute in any way that the s60 framework is easier to navigate. Or that it, specially after the newest upgrade, feels very responsive and solid.
But it's still a matter of priorities, and it's perfectly possible to have different opinions about what is best for your personal use, without that suggesting that people are not honest about what's really best. And just so it's been said, I respect your opinion about how a menu- system should be, and what makes a good phone - but I simply disagree with your priorities. And the way you and other seem to argue that if the p1 isn't an n95, or at least a nokia, then it's basically junk and can't be good on areas that the nokia is perhaps not entirely perfect.
edit: *sigh* ..why do I end up writing half a book every time..
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[ This Message was edited by: Nipsen on 2007-12-04 19:36 ] |
Dogmann
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: > 500
From: London England
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@Nipsen
I do understand where you are coming from but some of what you claim is just not supportable, i had a M600 and after 2 firmware upgrades and being virtually a life time user of Ericsson and SE devices gave up. The rest is all well documented history but your view of UIQ compared to S60 is just not accurate.
As UIQ has not evolved since the announcement and the release of the P990 still using all the same old tech no HSDPA in a Data centric device near the end of 2007 is just absurd especially when non smart phones are now getting this from SE. There is only one reason that the new UIQ devices don't have it and that is down to the old hardware that just can't support it.
The N95 8gb and E90 getting an extra 64mb Ram is no different to the P1 or W960 and is due to the same reason Symbian 9.1. If SE had been able to give users Demand paging you would be saying how great and fantastic it is, which of course it is. But because Nokia got there first it's no big deal which is just absurd logic, also how come whether it be 64mb Ram or 128mb Ram device the Nokia's always have more free on boot up and when running apps then? Not forgetting both start up time and general navigation and opening of apps are also much quicker on S60.
Yes S60 is a power hungry OS but then look at what you are running and all with the most powerful processor found in any Symbian smart phone and more than 50% faster clock speed than the old Nexperia chip.
If you want a touchscreen then S60 currently doesn't have anything to offer you and if you really prefer a lower specked device so you have a Touchscreen fair enough that's the users choice to make.
But to try and say UIQ3 is a superior OS to S60 is just not supported by the facts it has both better built in hardware and many more both free and paid for apps it is also far more stable and receives updates faster as well.
I really don't know where you get this idea it is so bad as since my N93 through to my now N95 8gb i have had no crashes or freezes and no out of memory messages either.
How long does it take for your P1 to boot up and how long to open an app like messages or calender then? As for how long an S60 device can run for without needing to boot up until i had to take a screen shot to prove start up Ram, i hadn't restarted my device for more than week and even then i didn't need to.
Marc
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Nipsen
Joined: Jul 31, 2007
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From: Noway
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*sigh* Sure, sure.
The p1 Whiki - report your bugs, and add feature requests here. "Brothers and Sisters, believe! Believe in the salvation of Demand Paging, 'eah!" |
mib1800
Joined: Mar 18, 2004
Posts: > 500
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Nipsen:
You are wrong. P1 battery is not that superb as you try to make it out to be. One of my classmate have the P1, the battery life is not good at all. If using wifi+web, battery also drains as fast as the N95. And my classmate says he has to turn the screen brightness to the lowest otherwise the battery also drain faster. If you just use it for calls/sms, then it will last longer but then again P1 has a bigger battery than N95.
And one other thing P1 is definitely slower to run apps than the N95. |
okalyddude
Joined: Nov 03, 2007
Posts: 17
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glad i sparked such a serious battle.. thanks for all the info, but i think i am going for the tytn ii. windows mobile may not be the best OS but its pretty customizable from what i hear, has lots of apps i want (emulators, easy streaming video and audio, skype, bittorrent etc) and the keyboard that i was looking for. the touchscreen is relatively unimportant but it helps for web browsing.
The 3D acceleration might not be up to par with the late model nokias, but i am actually more conscerned with the emulated console games than i am with the new phone developed games.
camera isnt as good but good enough (i dont take that many pics and dont take them well anyway) and dont want to carry my new phone at night after being robbed of my p1, so flash isnt a big coscern
and of course the networks better for the US and it has gps..
maybe if ı had the chance to use a n82 i might change my mind, but i sadly probably wont really get a chance to try either before commiting, so i hope i make the right choice.. but im looking for more of a pocket pc as i do not have a laptop (thats the reason im getting such a nice phone....) so the keyboard and more apps helps a lot
thanks for the info though and if anyone has strong biases on the tytn ii or wm6 tell me now!
as far as usability of uıq goes i cant join the argument having not used symbian or WM, but i can say that the learing curve for higher end functions is not too bad for an averagely savy tech person.. but it could be slow, depending on what you do and how much you multitask could require resets quıte often.. and would freeze randomly when i combıned the wrong programs and actions.. that said i still loved my p1 |
Nipsen
Joined: Jul 31, 2007
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On 2007-12-05 04:09:53, mib1800 wrote:
Nipsen:
You are wrong. P1 battery is not that superb as you try to make it out to be. One of my classmate have the P1, the battery life is not good at all. If using wifi+web, battery also drains as fast as the N95.
*shrug* Well, I've tried both phones, and what turned out to happen was that on similar use: web, wlan, 3g enabled, etc, the p1 lasted at least twice as long as the n95. And if you disable 3g, lower the backlight to 50% and have it automatically turning off, and so on.. - for instance, I charged the phone overnight on friday, my call log shows I've talked a little over two hours, I've sent some ten sms, and surfed the web on wlan for around two hours, played skyforce a couple of times, and tested SamnMax. Also watched an episode of a series I'd recorded (25mins), and listened to music while I was walking around on saturday (around 4hours). Also, used the calendar a bit, some alarms, like I do usually, and GDesk and so on. I've not closed any programs I've run, the browser can stay put in the background with tabs open, etc. (edit: I forgot, I wrote something on the bluetooth keyboard as well, about 45mins). ..And - I charged my phone when I came back from school a while ago. So that's four and a half days on what n95 owners call "normal" use. I mean, just let it go - you won't get near that on an n95, not even if you just leave it alone and don't use it.
but then again P1 has a bigger battery than N95.
950mAh vs 1020mAh? There's more to it than that.
And one other thing P1 is definitely slower to run apps than the N95.
It does. That's one of the weaknesses.
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[ This Message was edited by: Nipsen on 2007-12-05 13:30 ] |
Nipsen
Joined: Jul 31, 2007
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On 2007-12-05 13:20:51, okalyddude wrote:
(...)
thanks for the info though and if anyone has strong biases on the tytn ii or wm6 tell me now!
It sucks!
No, it sounds like you have good reasons for choosing it. I know someone who has one, though, and she has some trouble with programs hanging - but that does depend on the use, I think. And what sort of programs you're running. And the choice of software is good for wm, absolutely. (It doesn't have a text- editor with footnotes and picture embedding, though...)
as far as usability of uıq goes i cant join the argument having not used symbian or WM, but i can say that the learing curve for higher end functions is not too bad for an averagely savy tech person.. but it could be slow, depending on what you do and how much you multitask could require resets quıte often.. and would freeze randomly when i combıned the wrong programs and actions.. that said i still loved my p1
Yeah, it tends to have some problems with some apps. Haven't had many resets of the phone because of it, though.. In any case - think you could write a small comparison between the two after you've had the tytn for a while. On whether you're using the phones differently, how the software works, and so on?
The p1 Whiki - report your bugs, and add feature requests here. "Brothers and Sisters, believe! Believe in the salvation of Demand Paging, 'eah!" |
mib1800
Joined: Mar 18, 2004
Posts: > 500
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@Nipsen:
I charged the phone overnight on friday, my call log shows I've talked a little over two hours, I've sent some ten sms, and surfed the web on wlan for around two hours, played skyforce a couple of times, and tested SamnMax. Also watched an episode of a series I'd recorded (25mins), and listened to music while I was walking around on saturday (around 4hours). Also, used the calendar a bit, some alarms, like I do usually, and GDesk and so on. I've not closed any programs I've run, the browser can stay put in the background with tabs open, etc. And - I charged my phone when I came back from school a while ago. So that's four and a half days
There is NO WAY you can get anyone to believe that your P1 can stay up for 4.5 days (i.e. 100+ hrs uptime) with the above usage. .
[ This Message was edited by: mib1800 on 2007-12-05 13:37 ] |
Nipsen
Joined: Jul 31, 2007
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Because.. the n95 and the n82 drops out after about one day on less? 
The p1 Whiki - report your bugs, and add feature requests here. "Brothers and Sisters, believe! Believe in the salvation of Demand Paging, 'eah!" | |
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Posted: 2007-12-04 09:13
