Posted by Vit
It´s mininum Shutter Speed is just 1/15s.
1s exposures like SE´s phones since the k750 will not be possible.
Unless Nokia promotes a change in its camera software, people into Night Photography will mostly regret buying the new N8.
I´ve started a thread @ http://forums.dpreview.com/fo[....]sp?forum=1000&message=36768495 in order to inquire Damian Dinning (the man behind N8´s camera) about this issue.
Posted by laffen
In my opinion, this is a constructed problem. If you are seriously abou night photography, you will buy a dedicated camera for that. The exposure time of 1/15s is probably the longes time you are able to hold the phone steady. 1 second exposures will become blurry without a tripod or other types of stand. Another issue is that longer explosures will generate more unwanted noise.
Posted by mriley
I wonder if there's an option in the camera settings to change the ISO manually.
They are probably trying to reduce blur in low-light photos, if they don't give an option to chance the shutter speed and the camera automatically chooses 1/2 s for low light photos, they would all come out blurred.
Only a tiny proportion of people who buy the N8 will use it for proper night time photos, (setting it up on a tripod and changing loads of settings)
Posted by Vit
On 2010-10-29 14:39:29, laffen wrote:
In my opinion, this is a constructed problem. If you are seriously abou night photography, you will buy a dedicated camera for that. The exposure time of 1/15s is probably the longes time you are able to hold the phone steady. 1 second exposures will become blurry without a tripod or other types of stand. Another issue is that longer explosures will generate more unwanted noise.
So, by your reasoning, if I am not seriously into photography as a whole, I would not need such a big sensor, am I right?
If I would think like that, I would not buy a cameraphone at first place.
That´s not an excuse for the issue.
I am not asking for 30s exposures. I am asking for a pretty basic 1s. I´ve never used a tripod for my cameraphone shots. They´re not handheld, but I always found ways of getting them.
Anyway, it´s a much wiser decision leaving to the customer the decision of whether to have or not to have a slower shutter speed.
They´ve done the most difficult thing already. They´ve fitted a 1/1.83" sensor inside it.
How easy would be eanbling slower Shutter Speeds?
Posted by Vit
On 2010-10-29 15:20:53, mriley wrote:
I wonder if there's an option in the camera settings to change the ISO manually.
They are probably trying to reduce blur in low-light photos, if they don't give an option to chance the shutter speed and the camera automatically chooses 1/2 s for low light photos, they would all come out blurred.
Only a tiny proportion of people who buy the N8 will use it for proper night time photos, (setting it up on a tripod and changing loads of settings)
I understand their reasons.
But it´s super easy to provide an option at the Camera Interface for advanced users.
I am not asking for hardware changes. I ask for simple, mild UI ones.
Posted by laffen
On 2010-10-29 15:30:16, Vit wrote:
If I would think like that, I would not buy a cameraphone at first place.
Is it possible to buy a phone without a camera these days?
I am not asking for 30s exposures. I am asking for a pretty basic 1s. I´ve never used a tripod for my cameraphone shots. They´re not handheld, but I always found ways of getting them.
Anyway, it´s a much wiser decision leaving to the customer the decision of whether to have or not to have a slower shutter speed.
I agree. To some extend. And why stop at 1 second? I am sure there are owners out there wanting 30 seconds as the maximum shutter speed.
They´ve done the most difficult thing already. They´ve fitted a 1/1.83" sensor inside it.
How easy would be eanbling slower Shutter Speeds?
The N8 has indeed a very large sensor for being a cameraphone. The picture quality is superb but I am sure it would be technically easy to allow for even shorter exposure times.
Posted by Bonovox
From what I have seen some of the night shots outside with no flash are superb with not much noise. I do not see what you are saying
Posted by Vit
On 2010-10-29 16:00:58, laffen wrote:
The N8 has indeed a very large sensor for being a cameraphone. The picture quality is superb but I am sure it would be technically easy to allow for even shorter exposure times.
I guess you mean longer exposure times, am I right?
The question that remains is:
If it´s that easy, why on earth they´ve limited so hardly a capable HW like this?
Posted by Vit
On 2010-10-29 16:20:54, Bonovox wrote:
From what I have seen some of the night shots outside with no flash are superb with not much noise. I do not see what you are saying
If it manages to output good pictures @ higher ISO speeds, imagine what it would do @ lower ISO speeds.
And I am not only talking about the noise either.
I´m talking about the effects we can obtain with longer exposure times:
See the light trails? That´s simply not possible with an N8.
Posted by mriley
People into night photography should buy a DSLR, not a camera-phone if they want good night photos at long exposures.
It would be better if they had given more control of shutter speed and ISO, but it can take good night photos and can do short light trails, but not crazy effects with long shutter speeds.
Posted by Vit
On 2010-10-29 17:44:06, mriley wrote:
People into night photography should buy a DSLR, not a camera-phone if they want good night photos at long exposures.
It would be better if they had given more control of shutter speed and ISO, but it can take good night photos and can do short light trails, but not crazy effects with long shutter speeds.
There´s no need to go radical.
Posted by boy.in.PINK
Just accept the fact that the N8 is not meant for capturing photos with motion blur. Even my N82 can't, but my former
G502 can.
And the fast shutter will be my another definite reason of buying a N8. I really don't like blurred shots.
My statement above is only my humble opinion and doesn't meant to offend anybody.
Stick to Satio my friend since I observed that
's can have slow shutters.
Posted by mriley
I think you expected too much from the phone. It can do good night photos so it's not fair to say that can't do good night photography just because it can't do long exposure effects, not all low light photos need long exposures. That's reality, it's radical to say don't get the N8 if you take a lot of night time photos
[ This Message was edited by: mriley on 2010-10-29 17:01 ]
Posted by Vit
On 2010-10-29 17:52:25, boy.in.PINK wrote:
Just accept the fact that the N8 is not meant for capturing photos with motion blur. Even my N82 can't, but my former
G502 can.
And the fast shutter will be my another definite reason of buying a N8. I really don't like blurred shots.
My statement above is only my humble opinion and doesn't meant to offend anybody.
Stick to Satio my friend since I observed that
's can have slow shutters.
The question is:
Why stick to only one world when it´s easy to have both?
Posted by Vit
On 2010-10-29 18:00:59, mriley wrote:
I think you expected too much from the phone. It can do good night photos so it's not fair to say that can't do good night photography just because it can't do long exposure effects, not all low light photos need long exposures. That's reality, it's radical to say don't get the N8 if you take a lot of night time photos
[ This Message was edited by: mriley on 2010-10-29 17:01 ]
No, it´s not radical.
If you have other options on the market that can do better night shots, it´s reasonable, IF YOU ARE KEEN ON NIGHT SHOTS, not to buy the N8.
Buying a Satio over a N8 is much less radical than buying a DSLR over an N8.
Posted by Bonovox
@mriley i agree with you 100% on that point about getting a proper camera. Come on guys you are expecting too much. Even most compact cameras out there struggle in low light its hard to get low light perfect. Expecting miracle night shots on a phone is radical. There is no doubt the N8 is the best camera phone so far produced but if you are whole heartedly serious about photography a mobile phone is simply not the way to go. I have taken some good night shots with a phone most come out poor but who cares if you cannot get long exposure light trails. For me as long as daytime shots and flash shots come out decent and i can at least take a clear night shot i care not for light trails and again i say you are expecting too much. Just enjoy it for what it does do best
Posted by exaflare23
On 2010-10-29 17:52:25, boy.in.PINK wrote:
Just accept the fact that the N8 is not meant for capturing photos with motion blur. Even my N82 can't, but my former
G502 can.
And the fast shutter will be my another definite reason of buying a N8. I really don't like blurred shots.
My statement above is only my humble opinion and doesn't meant to offend anybody.
Stick to Satio my friend since I observed that
's can have slow shutters.
N82 can
anyway about the N8 hmm..
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[....]996794525/meta/in/photostream/
what is the setting did damian used? is it auto? nightmode? because if its nightmode then why its not written in the exif.
we all know that Nightmode setting in camera phones was the only way to have longer shutter speed then it should be written in the exif in link above and if you'll read carefully the title of the picture was "Taken during the developement" so it means that time the N8 was not fully developed. I think lets wait for the N8 users to post there pictures with Nightmode settings then lets check its exif data.
Posted by Vit
On 2010-10-29 18:35:00, Bonovox wrote:
@mriley i agree with you 100% on that point about getting a proper camera. Come on guys you are expecting too much. Even most compact cameras out there struggle in low light its hard to get low light perfect. Expecting miracle night shots on a phone is radical. There is no doubt the N8 is the best camera phone so far produced but if you are whole heartedly serious about photography a mobile phone is simply not the way to go. I have taken some good night shots with a phone most come out poor but who cares if you cannot get long exposure light trails. For me as long as daytime shots and flash shots come out decent and i can at least take a clear night shot i care not for light trails and again i say you are expecting too much. Just enjoy it for what it does do best
I am not expecting too much. Who on earth would expect Nokia to come up with a 1/1.83" sensor?
If they´ve coped with that HW challange, why on earth they can´t do that ridiculous SW change to the camera?
That makes no sense at all.
Posted by boy.in.PINK
Then have both! The N8 at day and the Satio at night!
Me too, I'm totally agree with mriley. But the bottomline is, don't persuade somebody's decisions. Don't persuade people from buying the N8 just because of the fast shutter. Most of mobile phone users wants such speedy shutter for taking personal or casual potraits.
Posted by AbuBasim
On 2010-10-29 16:29:06, Vit wrote:
If it manages to output good pictures @ higher ISO speeds, imagine what it would do @ lower ISO speeds.
And I am not only talking about the noise either.
I´m talking about the effects we can obtain with longer exposure times:
See the light trails? That´s simply not possible with an N8.
Longer exposures... like 4 seconds at ISO 50?
Still four years later there is no camphone beating the i-mobile 902 on low light photos.
[ This Message was edited by: AbuBasim on 2010-10-29 18:02 ]
Posted by Vit
On 2010-10-29 19:01:32, AbuBasim wrote:
Still four years later there is no camphone beating the i-mobile 902 on low light photos.
[ This Message was edited by: AbuBasim on 2010-10-29 18:02 ]
Imagine how good would it be to have just that on the N8... That´s what I am talking about. Lower noise levels, higher dynamic range, higher colour saturation...
Posted by Bonovox
Sorry who made the i-mobile??
Posted by Vit
On 2010-10-29 18:47:22, boy.in.PINK wrote:
Then have both! The N8 at day and the Satio at night!
Me too, I'm totally agree with mriley. But the bottomline is, don't persuade somebody's decisions. Don't persuade people from buying the N8 just because of the fast shutter. Most of mobile phone users wants such speedy shutter for taking personal or casual potraits.
OMG! Having two 500+ US Dollars devices at the same time? I like cameraphones, but not that much. My money is hardly earned...
Besides that, I am not persuading anybody to do anything...
I know that a great amount of people here like shots taken with longer exposure times. That´s it.
SE´s phones have educated us in a different way. Many of us got spoiled by it.
I am not making a brainwash. People around here are grown up and capable of making their own decisions.
On 2010-10-29 19:04:58, Bonovox wrote:
Sorry who made the i-mobile??
I-mobile is the brand name. That model is a C902, and it carries a Sony 5Mpixel CCD inside it. I´ve had one of these, too.
[ This Message was edited by: Vit on 2010-10-29 18:11 ]
Posted by AbuBasim
On 2010-10-29 19:04:58, Bonovox wrote:
Sorry who made the i-mobile??
Manufactured by Asus but branded by Samart, a Thai company.
Posted by etaab
Vit, arent you forgetting that this is simply a case of the phone out of the box does not support the software function ?
Its a bit harsh to start a thread titled DO NOT BUY THE N8..
Like i said in the other thread, the hardware is there im sure, its just software that does not support it. But then why would it ? Nokia probably didnt think people seriously would buy the N8 to perform such low light photography. I bet it never occured to them.
If you were keen on the N8, id still get it, then on the Nokia developers forum start a thread asking someone to create an app for it, just like the panorama app that is already available on the Ovi store.
I dont see the point in complaining. Its like me complaining that the N8 does not do slow motion video capture like many other handsets especially from LG, but if the manufacturer has no idea its a wanted feature they're not likely to explore it or even think about it. I suggest if you did want the N8, i would seriously go down to Nokia developers forum and ask !
Posted by AbuBasim
^^^ A manufacturer that doesn't base their products on research are bound to fail. They just put in the features they like themselves without any concern about what their customers would be interested in? LOL!
Posted by etaab
But then surely every manufacturer would be doomed to the same fate ?
Which other cameraphone manufacturers release phones capable of what Vit asks ? none !
The only reason other phones might be capable of such artistic night pictures where the N8 is not is down to their inferior hardware and / or software. This is a rather silly thing to moan about considering this is a cameraphone, not a dedicated DSLR. It is ridiculous, its like me starting a thread entitled "Do not buy the Nokia N8 as it cannot burn CDs !"
Its pretty straightforward to me.
[ This Message was edited by: etaab on 2010-10-30 09:54 ]
Posted by exaflare23
@etaab
well said
for me the title was wrong, It should be "Do not buy a Camera Phone if you r keen on night photography"
dont specify a unit, the samples that ive seen here is just a tiny portion of night photography and not the whole thing.
for me this is the real Night Photography.
Posted by Bonovox
Nice pic. What was it taken with??
Posted by Shino03
@vit, why not try to live in Japan.. I do really think that there are a lot of cameraphones better than the N8 in that part of the world.. Just joking..
I still remember Sony Ericsson SO905ics..
Posted by Vit
On 2010-10-30 10:52:22, etaab wrote:
But then surely every manufacturer would be doomed to the same fate ?
Which other cameraphone manufacturers release phones capable of what Vit asks ? none !
The only reason other phones might be capable of such artistic night pictures where the N8 is not is down to their inferior hardware and / or software. This is a rather silly thing to moan about considering this is a cameraphone, not a dedicated DSLR. It is ridiculous, its like me starting a thread entitled "Do not buy the Nokia N8 as it cannot burn CDs !"
Its pretty straightforward to me.
[ This Message was edited by: etaab on 2010-10-30 09:54 ]
etaab, I am not asking for something miraculous like burning CD´s...
In fact, I do not even say anything about it matching a 30sec - 60sec exposure time of a DSLR.
I´ve never asked for professional capabilities.
After all, a meager 2s is nothing from another planet, and it´s clearly a thing that even the most basic P&S can match.
People into night photography prefer to shoot at lower ISO and with slower Shutter Speeds. That´s an undeniable fact.
People like this may regret buying the N8 for its camera abilities, and Nokia´s bravely publicizing it as an advanced, capable of amazineg results, camera.
They should express better which are its limitations.
People say that life must be balanced.
Packing a 1/1.83" sensor inside a phone doesn´t seem to be balanced by this SS limitation of about 1/15sec.
[ This Message was edited by: Vit on 2010-10-30 17:07 ]
Posted by etaab
But its not a limitation if its simply an option not present in the software. A limitation is where the hardware cannot simply achieve the task. I have no doubts the N8 could, given an app.
Again like i said, try suggesting it on the Nokia developers forum ??
You've said yourself that Nokia said the N8 was capable of great pictures. But you're asking not for great pictures in the same sense Nokia meant. You mean something different entirely.
Im sure Nokia could quite easily add in with a firmware update along with sepia, negative and vivid the option you desire.
[ This Message was edited by: etaab on 2010-10-30 18:16 ]
Posted by AbuBasim
On 2010-10-30 17:34:13, Bonovox wrote:
Nice pic. What was it taken with??
Camphone - NOT! Canon EOS 20D...
Posted by false_morel
Vit,
How many N8 users do even know about shutter speeds, ISOs, exposures, and photography in general?
Even if most of those were attracted by the high-quality camera of the phone!
And even if some know some things, how many of those would consider capturing some artistic photos whether low shutter speeds night shots or other scenes?!
If I'd have to make a rough guess, I'd say not more than 5%! And I think i'm being generous here..
Only users who are into photography, whether professionals or hobbyists, would be interested in such options!
And not only the N8 and cameraphones in general aren't meant for those, but all point and shoot cameras..
Why would Nokia or any other manufacturer waste time and effort into implementing stuff that isn't serving the objective of the product!
When you design a software, you should take these factors into account.
I agree that it wouldn't have taken them much to implement a simple option for adjusting the shutter speeds, but consider also the disadvantage of such implementation..
First of all, the possibility of some users burning their sensors if used at certain extreme situation.. However, if teh shutter speeds were to be limited to a minimum of 2 secs this wouldn't be something to worry about I guess. Anyway, you're the expert here, you should more about this..
And secondly, users using that option the wrong way and blaming Nokia for it! You've got people like those everywhere. And the problem is they could make some noise you know..
And lastly, the time and efforts the programmers need to implement such a thing while it shouldn't be an influencing selling feature! So, this is a waste of time, efforts, and eventually money. I'm sorry, but this is how everyone runs his business.
Now, compared to other cameraphones, and specially the Satio as I own a one, the phone shooting twilight scenes at 1 sec shutter speed automatically and I can't do anything about it is plain stupid!
You either give the option of manually adjusting the shutter speed, or do it the N8 way!
As there is no f**kin way I could capture a decent nightshot without having some blurs! Shooting handheld nightshots with the Satio isn't good a idea..
Specially when you're in a hurry and just shooting some photos randomely..
What could be hoped for is one thing. A mod or an app giving the mentioned feature..
Other than that, to launch a bashing campaign against the N8 based on this is just not fair! It's out of proportion really.
Posted by Vit
On 2010-11-01 03:25:33, false_morel wrote:
Vit,
How many N8 users do even know about shutter speeds, ISOs, exposures, and photography in general?
Even if most of those were attracted by the high-quality camera of the phone!
How many N8 users know what difference a 1/1.83" sensor makes?
Nokia has publicized it in a very peculiar way: "The new N8 has the biggest sensor ever fitted in a mobile".
People that say I am expecting too much. For these people I then ask:
If we should never have high expectations from a phone´s camera, what´s the sense in having such a BIG (in Nokia´s own words, not mine) sensor inside it?
Posted by Vit
On 2010-10-30 19:13:35, etaab wrote:
But its not a limitation if its simply an option not present in the software. A limitation is where the hardware cannot simply achieve the task. I have no doubts the N8 could, given an app.
Again like i said, try suggesting it on the Nokia developers forum ??
You've said yourself that Nokia said the N8 was capable of great pictures. But you're asking not for great pictures in the same sense Nokia meant. You mean something different entirely.
Im sure Nokia could quite easily add in with a firmware update along with sepia, negative and vivid the option you desire.
[ This Message was edited by: etaab on 2010-10-30 18:16 ]
Be it a SW or a HW issue, what we know is that we cannot have access to slower SS.
In practical terms then, it is indeed a limitation.
I am expecting for great news from Nokia about this regard, but I guess that they will never address this issue.
The whole point of these controversial threads is to draw Nokia´s guys attention. I hope that they´ve read all these messages both here and @ dpreview.com.
[ This Message was edited by: Vit on 2010-11-01 02:56 ]
Posted by false_morel
How many N8 users know what difference a 1/1.83" sensor makes?
Nokia has publicized it in a very peculiar way: "The new N8 has the biggest sensor ever fitted in a mobile".
People that say I am expecting too much. For these people I then ask:
If we should never have high expectations from a phone´s camera, what´s the sense in having such a BIG (in Nokia´s own words, not mine) sensor inside it?
Well, at least thanks to Nokia's advertising, they know now that the N8 should deliver the best quality photos in the market because of its sensor's size!
And this does matter.
You see, customers do matter that they could capture some pretty landscape images to brag about. Also to shoot some high quality portrait photos of friends and family..
The high-quality photos the N8 delivers which makes it the best cameraphone in hte market is a major selling point!
Low shutter speeds photos don't meet the same objective! The average joe would find it too complicated, time consuming, and simply not interesting to even know about!
It doesn't meet the customer's requirements. Ok, the vast majority of them.
You are an exception who's asking for something extra.
And you've got all the right to do so.. And I support you in this quest..
But you can't blame Nokia as if they forgot something here and or missed some trivial feature..
You can ask them for adding it, not blame them for not adding it..
Got the idea now?
[ This Message was edited by: false_morel on 2010-11-01 04:14 ]
Posted by voda_jon
to be honest after reading this whole thread it seems you are wrong about Nokia and their N8.
The technique of light trails and using slow shutter speeds is probably beyond most cameraphone users as the general public who buy the phone would consider this technique to be a 'fault' not a useful technique.
How many reviews from professional blogs and companies do you see them advising that one of the downfalls of a certain phone is the lack of slow shutter speeds? NOt many as the primary use of a cameraphone is as a phone. The camera part is meant for spare of the moment shots or more like a standard point and shoot camera.
And it does still stand that if you are into photography enough to want this feature so badly then go buy a DSLR or even one of the Pro-sumer type of cams which suites your needs.
Posted by Bonovox
+1
Posted by etaab
On 2010-11-01 03:55:03, Vit wrote:
Be it a SW or a HW issue, what we know is that we cannot have access to slower SS.
In practical terms then, it is indeed a limitation.
Heh ! that made me giggle !
Do you not see what you're saying ? as you can see from the general opinion of the masses what you ask is not something thats a prerequisite of any cameraphone, or even a cameraphone dubbed by Nokia themselves as being one of the best available.
Therefore, based on the general opinion, its not a limitation at all. It is no more a limitation than my N8 not being able to run Android apps, make calls underwater, fry eggs, get me dates with page 3 models or generally give me the power of god !
Vit, i'll say it again, by moaning about it on a forum Nokia might take notice but they're not going to implement such a feature if only a small fraction of their N8 buyers demand it. Trust me, go down the Nokia developers forum and suggest it as an app ! it works, people do it you know !