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W800i - Napster and iTunes Support? |
siwatkins
Joined: Aug 19, 2005
Posts: 31
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The W800i doesn't support WMA, so presumably the W800i can never play tunes downloaded from Napster, and the majority of online music providers that deliver using Microsoft DRM and the WMA format?
The provided software (disc2phone) with the phone only recognizes MP3, so presumably iTunes users are left out in the cold too?
I know the phone will allow drag and drop to memory (albeit you have to have the right folder structure) and will playback iTunes ripped files, but presumably not iTunes store protected songs?
Can someone with iTunes songs they have downloaded from the iTunes store confirm if the phone can play them back?
Both of these seem to be odd weaknesses in the phone, that I never saw mentioned in any reviews?
Simon | |
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Jools
Joined: May 21, 2003
Posts: > 500
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The W800 (and K750) can't play any DRM protected files from any of the popular online music download services.
It can play music downloaded from http://www.allofmp3.com however, as those files don't have any DRM.
As Sony have their own Sony Connect download music store, I guess it may support those files in a future firmware update. But as Napster and iTunes are direct competitors to Sony's own download service, its hardly surprising the phone doesn't support them.
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[ This Message was edited by: JoolsG4 on 2005-08-22 12:32 ] |
siwatkins
Joined: Aug 19, 2005
Posts: 31
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Au contraire, I find it very surprising that a phone positioned as a Walkman device, lacks complete support for ANY of the DRM protected download sources.
Further, http://digital-lifestyles.inf[....]ay_page.asp?section=cm&id=2313
Which is an interesting development, if it does mean WMA support, as Napster use WMA DRM. |
max_wedge
Joined: Aug 29, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Australia
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Quote:
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On 2005-08-22 13:04:04, siwatkins wrote:
The W800i doesn't support WMA, so presumably the W800i can never play tunes downloaded from Napster, and the majority of online music providers that deliver using Microsoft DRM and the WMA format?
The provided software (disc2phone) with the phone only recognizes MP3, so presumably iTunes users are left out in the cold too?
I know the phone will allow drag and drop to memory (albeit you have to have the right folder structure) and will playback iTunes ripped files, but presumably not iTunes store protected songs?
Can someone with iTunes songs they have downloaded from the iTunes store confirm if the phone can play them back?
Both of these seem to be odd weaknesses in the phone, that I never saw mentioned in any reviews?
Simon
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I don't know about drm, but disc2phone is only a music ripping management program. You can copy mp3 and AAC files direct to the phone. You don't need disc2phone at all.
I don't know if itunes protected aac files (m4a) can only play on an ipod device or not, but if generic mp3 players with AAC support can't play protected aac files, then W800 is no different. If itunes protected files CAN be played on generic mp3 players with AAC support, then they should also play on the W800.
Have a look at past digital Walkman players - they are atrac only and don't even support mp3, so the W800 is a huge advance in that it supports MP3 and AAC, two of the more common (and better) format's around.
As far as wma goes, you have a fair point, but I expect SE will fall into line in later walkman phone releases, just as they have fallen in line with market forces and started to drop atrac only players. I expect they will offer wma support in due course, just like many mp3 player are now supporting wma.
But to be frank, I don't think it's a failing that the W800 doesn't support wma, since 90% of mp3 players don't support it yet either. To me, it just indicates that the device is more "open" and hasn't allied with a particular proprietary format. That's a good thing. If I buy a song, why should I be locked into this format or that? Surely I should get a choice, in the same way that it is acceptable to rip a cd to any format I choose, under fair use provisions? |
siwatkins
Joined: Aug 19, 2005
Posts: 31
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Max,
Yes, I appreciate you can copy MP3's and AAC files direct to the phone, but only in a very prescribed way - ie you need to keep the folder structure intact in an artist\album\track way. Now assume you can get 150 tracks on the device as a subset from several thousand on your PC. How realistically, are you going to approach the creation of those folder structures? And what about next week when you want a different selection of music? You need a program like disc2phone to do it. Further, lets assume your files are ripped at a highish bit rate to preserve quality. You don't want those high res files on the phone, as you won't get many on there. So you need to resample. Again, you need software like disc2phone. And disc2phone only supports MP3. It doesn't support iTunes files, and doesn't support wma.
"I don't know if itunes protected aac files (m4a) can only play on an ipod device or not, but if generic mp3 players with AAC support can't play protected aac files, then W800 is no different. If itunes protected files CAN be played on generic mp3 players with AAC support, then they should also play on the W800."
m4a files are ok, m4p (protected) are not.
"Have a look at past digital Walkman players - they are atrac only and don't even support mp3, so the W800 is a huge advance in that it supports MP3 and AAC, two of the more common (and better) format's around."
Actually, I couldn't give two hoots about what format the player itself uses. It could use Atrac if it wanted. The fact was with past digital walkman players, it didn't matter what the source format was, it could convert to atrac from say, wma, and put it on the device. There is no mechanism for that with the W800i. So it IS a retrograde step.
"As far as wma goes, you have a fair point, but I expect SE will fall into line in later walkman phone releases, just as they have fallen in line with market forces and started to drop atrac only players. I expect they will offer wma support in due course, just like many mp3 player are now supporting wma. "
All Sony Ericsson need to do, is license/modify SonicStage slightly, and the job would be done. Even if they modified disc2phone so that it could read WMA, it would be a vast improvement. My beef with the phone is not so much that it doesn't support protected formats, is that it is very difficult to get files onto the thing, unless you have them in mp3 to start with.
"But to be frank, I don't think it's a failing that the W800 doesn't support wma, since 90% of mp3 players don't support it yet either. "
Actually, I struggled to find any of the current MP3 players on the market that didn't support WMA.
"To me, it just indicates that the device is more "open" and hasn't allied with a particular proprietary format. That's a good thing. If I buy a song, why should I be locked into this format or that? Surely I should get a choice, in the same way that it is acceptable to rip a cd to any format I choose, under fair use provisions?"
I don't disagree. All SE need to do to make this a wonderful device, is to enable support in the transfer software, for other input formats. It can run MP3 on the player no snags. As long as you can get other formats transcoded, I'd have no issues. But you can't. And it isn't as easy as drag and drop, because the phone complains unless you maintain that very rigid folder structure. You really don't want to be manually creating 150 files paths every time you wish to change music on the phone. Thus the transfer software needs to support not only the formats that will play on the phone (at the moment it only does one of those - mp3), and it needs to support multiple input formats.
If it needs to baulk at protected formats, then frankly that is pretty poor and short sighted of SE, but given that SE have/are partnering with Napster, then sooner or later then they will need to start supporting WMA with MS DRM. I can live with no support for the protected formats, but not with the crap management software that comes with the phone. Simply because there is no other viable alternative.
Simon |
Jools
Joined: May 21, 2003
Posts: > 500
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I don't suppose you're a programmer, are you Simon? If so, I reckon you could make a few quid if you wrote exactly the program you're looking for!
Sell it to SE and make a fortune!
It seems strange that SE would release the W800 without DRM support after they've already started talks with Napster... are they expecting everyone who's bought a W800 already to upgrade the firmware to be able to use their download service, whenever it becomes available... or maybe they'll just release yet another phone that's the only one that's compatible...
Gah! Don't you just love proprietary formats and DRM!!
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mikeb
Joined: Nov 12, 2002
Posts: 98
From: Sweden
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What you are seeing here is the result of the "format" wars and I am sure everyone would like to say it is X or Y's fault, but the truth is there is more than enough blame to go around.
The simple fact is today there is no standard for DRM protected content (or if you prefer, there are too many standards for DRM protected content).
The recording industry (for a long time) did not trust or support music downloads (for a number of reasons). Into the void came unprotected content in the form of MP3, which made consumers happy but the recording industry hopping mad.
Sony then tried to push its format for DRM protected content. Of course you could only use the Sony Connect music service for downloads and sony devices to play the music.
Microsoft also made its play. As MS was not into a music download service, it was open to licensing its software to others. But you can only use MS software in the head end and in the device. MS do not license the technology itself which makes MS the sole source supplier of the software (MS likes monopolies).
Apple stepped in and offered its iTunes. But wait, as good as it is, you can only use the the iTunes music service for downloads and only apple devices to play the music.
Is it any wonder that this market is fragmented and messy ? What is needed is a well defined set of standards, open for anyone to license and develop towards, with well defined (and reasonable) licensing terms for the companies that own the IPR. This is the model around MEPG2 and the DVD standards and it is no accident that this is the reason for its fantastic success.
Unfortunately it looks like the music download industry has gone the way of format wars and market forces to define how this will work. Thus we see Apple currently in the lead, Napster, Sony and others fighting hard to compete and all use technology incompatiable with each other.
Its no wonder then that no one device can handle what is needed, there are too many technologies and too many cross licensing agreements needed.
Thus Motorola have gone with Apple/iTunes, Sony is still pushing SonyConnect towards SonyEricsson (Note: it is Ericsson that has the agreement with Napster for mobile music downloads) and I have no clue what Nokia is planning.
Format wars and market forces will eventually decide a winner (e.g. VHS Vs BetaMax) but it takes longer and costs more (as well as pissing off consumers).
Regards,
/Mike B. |
max_wedge
Joined: Aug 29, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Australia
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Simon,
"Yes, I appreciate you can copy MP3's and AAC files direct to the phone, but only in a very prescribed way - ie you need to keep the folder structure intact in an artist\album\track way. Now assume you can get 150 tracks on the device as a subset from several thousand on your PC. How realistically, are you going to approach the creation of those folder structures? And what about next week when you want a different selection of music? You need a program like disc2phone to do it. Further, lets assume your files are ripped at a highish bit rate to preserve quality. You don't want those high res files on the phone, as you won't get many on there. So you need to resample. Again, you need software like disc2phone. And disc2phone only supports MP3. It doesn't support iTunes files, and doesn't support wma. "
Actually the only thing you need to do is ensure songs are in the MP3 folder. If you have many songs yes you need to create playlists on the phone, and this is easier to break up if you create folders with your albums in, within the mp3 folder.
I have folders on my hdd with my music in already organised. (in mp4 format mostly). I don't use music management software - I run the songs from the folders themselves or use winamp playlists. I use dbpoweramp to convert wma, mp3, realplayer, wav (and more) format music to MP4. It's a right click and hit okay proposition. To copy to the phone, I just drag and drop the folder of songs I want to the phone via the memory stick reader (or cable). I guess I can concede if you have a lot of drm music it's a bitch, but are you saying that normal mp3 players can play m4p songs? If not then the comparison is only fair for wma drm files. As I said I believe SE will come to support wma. As far as ipod goes, if you are comparing the ability of ipod to play m4p's but not w800 then that's unfair because ipod is proprietary, and normal mp3players don't support m4p either.
"Actually, I couldn't give two hoots about what format the player itself uses. It could use Atrac if it wanted. The fact was with past digital walkman players, it didn't matter what the source format was, it could convert to atrac from say, wma, and put it on the device. There is no mechanism for that with the W800i. So it IS a retrograde step."
This is only because the crap software that SE supply is useless, but that is easy fixed by using dbpoweramp or any number of free programs that allow you to do that. In fact, you could use itunes to rip mp4 songs and copy to the phone via the drive letter that windows sets up for the cable connected w800. I do agree disc2phone is crap but why anyone would let that hold them back is beyond me.
Sonicstage is for encoding ATRAC only, the W800 doesn't support atrac in way shape or form. But I guess what you are saying, is you should get an "out of the box" software package to rip various formats and copy to the phone without having to drag and drop. Okay it would be nice, but I've been drag and dropping files into mp3 players for years and it doesn't worry me at all. If SE suppled something decent I'd still use the system that suits me best ie: dbpoweramp.
"I don't disagree. All SE need to do to make this a wonderful device, is to enable support in the transfer software, for other input formats. It can run MP3 on the player no snags. As long as you can get other formats transcoded, I'd have no issues. But you can't. And it isn't as easy as drag and drop, because the phone complains unless you maintain that very rigid folder structure. You really don't want to be manually creating 150 files paths every time you wish to change music on the phone. Thus the transfer software needs to support not only the formats that will play on the phone (at the moment it only does one of those - mp3), and it needs to support multiple input formats. "
Ah, actually W800 supports MP4. All my music is being converted to mp4, and it plays just fine on my K750. Just use itunes to copy your unprotected MP4 tracks straight to the phone  So I don't see your grief man, why not use itunes? I feel your only real beef is that you don't get software out of the box that is any good, but if you use itunes anyway, why would you want to reimport all your playlists etc into a whole new system?
I may be wrong, but check it out, you may be jumping to conclusions about how bad it is because of that crap disc2phone... 
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Lumps
Joined: Feb 16, 2005
Posts: 10
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you know you guys could just use Itunes if you have a small library and set the music folder to the MP3 folder on the memory stick and hit consolidate library everytime you add a new song to the library? this will, if you haave the organized folder structure on in itunes, sort the mp3's like the disc2phone software and you can edit the id tags of the mp3s. and possibly transfer songs which are m4a because itunes supports it.
also... i have a k750 and it doesnt require the structured folders in the mp3.. just mp3s anywhere on the phone it will find it... |
synagence
Joined: Aug 18, 2004
Posts: 114
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There are ways to remove the DRM from itunes music store files thus turning them from m4p to m4a ...
I think its cheeky that i bought music from a store and can't use it on my other mp4 devices so i did a little investigating and found a way |
brix25
Joined: Aug 20, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Cape Town, South Africa
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Good post by MikeB.
This message was posted from a K700i |
sapporobaby
Joined: Sep 14, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Finland. Kuwait maybe :)
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iTunes/Apple uses FairPlay as its DRM packaging system, so the answer is NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!! iTunes purchased song will not play on any other device unless you can remove the FairPlay wrapper. Second, Apple now has included a Lossless codec, and still allows converting to .aiff. WMV has been shunned by many due to its inferior sound reproducing qualities initially. However MS may have made improvements, but for the most part a comparable .aac will sound better than an .mp3 or .wmv file.
*edited on a Mac of course. Mac: There is no substitute*
N82(YES), iPhone 3G, Shure es530, Nikon D300, more stuff. No more SE stuff, why am I still here? |
Gigs
Joined: Jan 19, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: The planet Snibertron!
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I don't see why anyone has issues getting the music on the phone. Even if you hate disc2phone or if you want to use itunes to encode everything as m4a (which I do for space reasons ) its as simple as setting the MP3 folder on the memory stick then having itunes encode the music for you. This creates all the nessecary disk structure you need.
At least it is as easy as that on a PC. I couldn't say for mac users.
As for protected formats, theres also the issue of OMA which the mobile phone networks are persuing as well. I would expect this to be seen more in the phone first than either itunes or WMA protected formats. But I agree, lets blame the device for format wars after all, it's the devices fault for using open standards, something that traditionally Sony HAVEN'T done. Lets at least thank SE for going to more open standards at least.
Format wars between the players are going to be interesting, not at least legally where in some countries where you can purchase a cd and are allowed to make upto 2 copies (one for backup and 1 for a portable media player) for your own personal use - I wonder if this will extend to those services too.
There might also be the fact of liscensing, in which  might not want to pay either apple AND ms for use of their wrapped formats when perfectly good free alternatives exist.
Afaik isn't itunes designed for use with ipods anyhow? If I recall there's a complaint that other portable media player users are left out by it and have to transfer music manually as well. I don't see this as being any different?
I don't see a problem for non drm content, its just a matter of finding a media player with the right conversion features for you and what you find easy. For me its itunes at the moment, simply because I have the cd's at hand or the mp3s. Theres alot about itunes itself I don't like as far as managment software goes though.
For DRM content, well it'll have to be a wait and see thing, or find out what rights you have after you have purchased the song.
(OOPS, edit for MWA -> WMA... though MWA sounds much more friendly as a format acronym )
[ This Message was edited by: Gigs on 2005-08-24 00:05 ] |
sapporobaby
Joined: Sep 14, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Finland. Kuwait maybe :)
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Thanks Gigs and JoolsG4 for sanity in your posts.
The software that comes with the phone does not work on a Mac but we have the ability to access the file structure directly and we (Mac users), can create a small script to automate the conversion and importation of music on to the MS.
*edited on a Mac of course. Mac: There is no substitute*
N82(YES), iPhone 3G, Shure es530, Nikon D300, more stuff. No more SE stuff, why am I still here? |
siwatkins
Joined: Aug 19, 2005
Posts: 31
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Quote:
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On 2005-08-22 16:57:01, JoolsG4 wrote:
I don't suppose you're a programmer, are you Simon? If so, I reckon you could make a few quid if you wrote exactly the program you're looking for!
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LoL - no, not in my day job at least. Might have a look at this little task, as it is bugging me no end that SE hasn't provided software up to the job.
MikeB - great post.
max_wedge - thanks, I hadn't realised that I didn't need to maintain the folder structure. Does it pick up properly from the tagging to browse by artist, album etc if not in the folders?
If so, then this opens up a range of software that will work well - eg, MusicMatch jukebox. On your other points - I can't directly use drag and drop as my large music collection is ripped in lossless and/or high bitrate formats. Thus I need to alter bit rate to suit the device, or I can't get many tracks on - that is the nub of my problems, and that is the point that most respondents are missing. I want to transcode to a format and bitrate that the phone can handle directly from a library.
Lumps: I don't have a small library.
Gigs - when you say "it's as simple as setting the MP3 folder on the memory stick then having itunes encode the music for you." What do you mean exactly? You seem to recognize the problem later in your post "Afaik isn't itunes designed for use with ipods anyhow? If I recall there's a complaint that other portable media player users are left out by it and have to transfer music manually as well. I don't see this as being any different?". Other than for the process or ripping or converting whole folders and duplicating libraries, I haven't seen anyone show me how iTunes actually solves the problem I have with getting music onto the device. My source library is large. My phone is small. I need to transcode formats and bit rates, and I don't want duplicate libraries to maintain on the PC. iTunes won't help.
Sapporobaby. I very much hope that you aren't implying that there is insanity in the other posts. Can we keep the posting on a civil level please.
Simon
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Posted: 2005-08-22 13:04
