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MWEB
Joined: Feb 13, 2005
Posts: > 500
From: somewhere nicer than you
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Let's get this straight, Hamas are trying to reclaim their land, something any man would do if he had pride, dignity, and wanted to protect his country for the future generations of his family.
Motives are understandable, methods perhaps less so, Israel is a country wracked by vile hatred of Arabs and Muslims, their lives mean nothing to the average Jew, so don't lets hear any more garbage about how innocent the Israeli nation is!!
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Dogmann
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: > 500
From: London England
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@MWEB
What a load of rubbish HAMAS are a Terrorist organisation to claim other wise is absurd everyone knows it and is why most Governments don't have diplomatic relations with them and that is fact.
HAMAS don't won't to live in peace as they can't make any money that way and they are the ones that constantly fire rockets into civilian populations to get a reaction and instill terror. Again this is fact and can not be denied after 4 years of continuous attack Israel decided to stop it. They have targeted the weapon smuggling tunnels and the places rockets are fired from which is amongst the Palestinian population schools and homes as HAMAS are cowards and want their civilians injured for the propaganda they can get of it.
If they didn't fire rockets none of this would be happening so please explain why then HAMAS the people that openly want the destruction of Israel and fire rockets on them are innocent then and not the terrorists that they are.
Marc
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[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2009-01-20 11:14 ] |
Dogmann
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: > 500
From: London England
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Hi MWEB
Just in case you don't believe me try checking out some facts about HAMAS which can be found here
http://www.cfr.org/publication/8968/#1
as maybe then you will know what you are talking about. But here is a little extract from the first page for you to consider.
What is Hamas?
Hamas is the largest and most influential Palestinian militant movement. In January 2006, the group won the Palestinian Authority's (PA) general legislative elections, defeating Fatah, the party of the PA's president, Mahmoud Abbas, and setting the stage for a power struggle. Since attaining power, Hamas has continued its refusal to recognize the state of Israel, leading to crippling economic sanctions. Historically, Hamas has sponsored an extensive social service network. The group has also operated a terrorist wing, carrying out suicide bombings and attacks using mortars and short-range rockets. Hamas has launched attacks both in the Palestinian territories of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, and inside the pre-1967 boundaries of Israel. In Arabic, the word "hamas" means zeal. But it's also an Arabic acronym for "Harakat al-Muqawama al-Islamiya," or Islamic Resistance Movement.
Marc
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[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2009-01-20 11:16 ] |
MWEB
Joined: Feb 13, 2005
Posts: > 500
From: somewhere nicer than you
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Anyone who is not blind, dumb or stupid, who has watched the recent events on TV will be quite aware as to where to apportion blame, the stats below given by PK tell it how it really is.
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Dogmann
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: > 500
From: London England
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Hi MWEB
Well here some more background info for you and Oh yeah because we all believe everything we see on TV don't we as how could they not be right Oh please.
I notice no comment or explanation of why the Terrorists are firing Rockets into Israel and are just so innocent then?
Here you go some more info in case you haven't read what's at the link.
"Since coming to power in Gaza, rockets fired from the Hamas enclave have consistently landed on Israeli cities near the border, sometimes producing casualties. Israel consistently alleged that Iranian and other weapons were being smuggled into Gaza through a series of tunnels, and with Egypt maintained tight control on the enclaves borders. International aid agencies say this led to severe shortages. A six-month ceasefire calmed things somewhat in 2008, but toward the end of the year, Hamas called off the truce and resumed firing rockets into Israel. The response was an air assault in late December and, in the first week of 2009, a full blown Israeli invasion of the territory."
Hm so it really is HAMAS at fault as they called off the ceasefire and started firing Rockets once again into Israel. Now if they hadn't done that none of this would be happening now would it? As for this well it says it all really doesn't it
" What does Hamas believe and what are its goals?
Hamas combines Palestinian nationalism with Islamic fundamentalism. Its founding charter commits the group to the destruction of Israel, the replacement of the PA with an Islamist state on the West Bank and Gaza, and to raising "the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine." Its leaders have called suicide attacks the "F-16" of the Palestinian people. Hamas believes "peace talks will do no good," said the Hamas leader Abd al-Aziz Rantisi in April 2004. "We do not believe we can live with the enemy."
So just why should Israel allow them to fire Rockets at their civilian population and do nothing as i seem to have missed the justification for not taking any action to defend their citizens from those that want to destroy it and are not even interested in seeking peace. Now that's what makes them terrorists along with the atrocities of suicide bombers.
Marc
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[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2009-01-20 11:35 ] |
MWEB
Joined: Feb 13, 2005
Posts: > 500
From: somewhere nicer than you
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All i'm asking you to do Marc is to see both sides of the coin, it's not difficult, honestly.
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PeterKay
Joined: Jul 08, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: The Ummah
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MWEB, what you say is correct and congratulations on not being brainwashed by the western media, not an easy thing to avoid.
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Dogmann
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: > 500
From: London England
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@MWEB
Believe me i do see both sides and would like nothing more than peace in the Middle East like most sane rational human beings.
But the problem is the Palestinian children are brought up to hate Israel and the Jews they are brain washed that they are the enemy. What chance does peace stand in those conditions? no one is saying the casualties on both sides aren't terrible and shouldn't happen. But really when you are having rockets fired at your civilians daily what are you meant to do nothing?
Israel didn't brake the ceasefire Hamas did and all Hamas had to do to avoid the escalation in hostilities was stop launching rockets. Which it didn't it continued to fire them and chose residential areas where it's people live to launch them from. How can they possibly be surprised when they are attacked and the answer is they are not it's what they want to happen. They have very little regard for the safety or lives of their own people if it serves their propaganda. Now that is sad IMO and shows a total disregard to the value of any life from any side.
Also lets just remember who calls for the destruction of their enemy and refuses to try and find a peaceful settlement. As well as just who broke the last cease fire and started hostilities again? heres a clue it wasn't Israel.
Marc
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[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2009-01-20 11:58 ] |
ofiaich
Joined: Nov 12, 2001
Posts: > 500
From: East Yorkshire, England
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Hi!
I am Irish, but not a christian, and feel Ireland should belong solely to the Irish, but I know it is never so simple.... All that live in Ireland have rights..
let me add a simplistic view...
I believe the IRA who kill and murder British soldiers and civilians, both Protestant and Catholic are murderers.
I also believe that the killings and murders carried British Soldiers and Protestants, are also murders.
What I would like to see is, within this discussion, is for all esato members, whether they be Muslim, Jewish, Christian, or whatever religion to denounce the use of violence... by either side..
I know the balance of deaths on Palestinian and Isreali sides are not equal..
but one death is more than enough
Ofiaich 
esato since Nov, 12, 2001  |
MWEB
Joined: Feb 13, 2005
Posts: > 500
From: somewhere nicer than you
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Simplistic views are often the wisest Ofiaich, and your's has much merit
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ofiaich
Joined: Nov 12, 2001
Posts: > 500
From: East Yorkshire, England
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hi MWEB,
lets hope then, that in this thread, all esato members, whether they be Muslim, Jewish, Christian, or whatever religion to denounce the use of violence... by either side..
I notice no one rushing to post....
Ofiaich
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[ This Message was edited by: ofiaich on 2009-01-20 12:23 ] |
Dogmann
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: > 500
From: London England
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Hi Ofiaich,
I thought i had with
"Believe me i do see both sides and would like nothing more than peace in the Middle East like most sane rational human beings"
Which of course means an end to the violence and senseless killing by all and denounces the use of violence by all also as that's the only way it can work. Hatred fuels more violence and is a negative energy and why the world is in such a mess in the first place. As it's not just the Middle East plagued with trouble and so i feel a John Lennon moment coming
ALL WE ARE SAYING IS GIVE PEACE A CHANCE
Marc
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[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2009-01-20 17:15 ] |
ofiaich
Joined: Nov 12, 2001
Posts: > 500
From: East Yorkshire, England
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@Dogmann,
point taken, but I meant after my post...
Ofiaich
esato since Nov, 12, 2001 |
naveedaziz83
Joined: Nov 15, 2007
Posts: > 500
From: Saudi Arabia
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Islam is the religion of peace and does not harbor or teaches violence at all. As far as war is concerned, there are strict rules and regulations in Islam. First, one cannot go to war without the permission of the Caliph. Second, if there is a war, Islam prohibits the killing of people without arms, women, children, old and those who except defeat. Islam prohibits destroying of houses and cutting down trees. That's how peaceful this religion is.
What Hamas is doing (firing rockets and killing innocent people) is wrong. But as pointed out many times here and other threads, they have the right to get back what was taken from them; their land, their freedom. Islam does give a right to self-defense and to fight against any wrong-doing being done to you.
As far as the suicide bombings are concerned, what would you do if your entire family has been killed? What would you do if any one would kill your father, your son or your brother in front of you? I know this is wrong. There is no such concept of suicide bombing in Islam, but at that particular moment when instead of being together with your loved ones, you are carrying their graves who will not lose their temper. Any human being can tolerate as much.
Peace to all
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Dogmann
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: > 500
From: London England
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@naveedaziz83,
Oh what a lot of great propaganda you do like to spout try checking out the facts as your beautifully just and poetic version is not any where close to the truth. Maybe you should of checked out the link i gave for some real facts about how HAMAS recruit brainwash and train their suicide bombers read below as this paints a very different version to yours.
"How does Hamas recruit and train suicide bombers?
The organization generally targets deeply religious young men—although some bombers have been older. The recruits do not fit the usual psychological profile of suicidal people, who are often desperate or clinically depressed. Hamas bombers often hold paying jobs, even in poverty-stricken Gaza. What they have in common, studies say, is an intense hatred of Israel. After a bombing, Hamas gives the family of the suicide bomber between three thousand dollars and five thousand dollars and assures them their son died a martyr in holy jihad.
The recruits undergo intense religious indoctrination, attend lectures, and undertake long fasts. The week before the bombing, the volunteers are watched closely by two Hamas activists for any signs of wavering, according to Nasra Hassan, writing in the New Yorker. Shortly before the "sacred explosion," as Hamas calls it, the bomber records a video testament. To draw inspiration, he repeatedly watches his video and those made by his predecessors and then sets off for his would-be martyrdom after performing a ritual ablution and donning clean clothes. Hamas clerics assure the bombers their deaths will be painless and that dozens of virgins await them in paradise. The average bombing costs about $150."
Because of course blowing yourself and innocent civilians to bits is painless isn't i mean the clerics wouldn't lie now would they? They are brain washed and fuelled by hate along with money and fame all good and true motives those aren't they?
So naveedaziz83 just how does that measure up to what you claim is Islamic with your statement that
" Islam is the religion of peace and does not harbor or teaches violence at all. As far as war is concerned, there are strict rules and regulations in Islam. First, one cannot go to war without the permission of the Caliph. Second, if there is a war, Islam prohibits the killing of people without arms, women, children, old and those who except defeat. Islam prohibits destroying of houses and cutting down trees. That's how peaceful this religion is."
As that doesn't quite seem to agree with the facts now does it? as that is exactly who suicide bombers target defenseless unarmed women and children. Oh and what about the homes and trees destroyed by indiscriminate rocket attacks on the civilian population of Israel as that according to you is against Islam as well. It does appear Hamas aren't very Islamic at all and just a bunch of hate fueled terrorists after all doesn't it?
Marc
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[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2009-01-20 17:31 ] | |
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Posted: 2009-01-20 11:46
