Petition for SE to use CCD in their top C-series phones

Posted by EddieAdams
After reading that the N82 took "best imaging device" in Europe I feel its time for SE to wake up. This is the second thread I have started on the topic. http://www.esato.com/board/viewtopic.php?topic=168485
Perhaps a petition thread could motivate SE. With the restrictive size of the sensors used in cell phones CMOS isn't cutting it. The images are "noisy" and inconsistent. As mentioned in my other thread the I-mobile 902(with a Sony CCD camera unit) still takes better images than any other camera phone.
If SE were to use CCD in their flagship C-series phone, not only would they reclaim the imaging crown, SE would surely have a best-seller on their hands. I would also like to see Xenon flash used.(Photolight is only a touch above led's)
If you agree and would like a product that could truly be considered a substitute for your stand-alone digtial camera then sign below. Feel free to comment as well.

_________________
Hello, Exactly!-Eddie Adams a.k.a. Dirk Diggler a.k.a. Brock Landers. Boogie Nights.

[ This Message was edited by: EddieAdams on 2008-04-26 17:17 ]

Posted by NightBlade
I'm sure they know what they're doing. They aren't THAT stupid, you know.
Things aren't as simple as you describe them to be.

Posted by LucianTheone
LucianTheOne is agree and wanna give his vote for this. SonyEricsson have to be No. 1!!!

Posted by mode

On 2008-04-26 16:52:36, NightBlade wrote:
I'm sure they know what they're doing. They aren't THAT stupid, you know.
Things aren't as simple as you describe them to be.

I can say with all honesty, conviction and knowledge that SE DID NOT KNOW what they were doing with P990, so apparently you can't be too sure that they do in the case of their Cybershot range. I mean, how on earth can you say they know what they're doing when a convergence device such as N95 and N82 can outperform a dedicated imaging Cybershot phone like K850? Obviously no Cybershot branded SE device has won the prestigious imaging award so CCD or no CCD, they better be doing something!

Posted by number1
se clearly have no idea what there doing with the cybershot range 5megapixels is a very bad idea, they have also reduced the focal lengh to 4.2mm another very bad idea, and they have scrapped the xenon flash for a tacky led one with a stupid name another very bad idea.

Posted by EddieAdams

On 2008-04-26 16:52:36, NightBlade wrote:
I'm sure they know what they're doing. They aren't THAT stupid, you know.
Things aren't as simple as you describe them to be.

They're not as difficult as you imply either. SE's two flagships, w960 and k850, are hardly success'. W960 is a flop and k850 isn't far behind and comes up short in it's main feature; imaging. Not only does it come up short the k850 gets outdone by most of its competition. With the c902 they are continuing a shitty trend. The k800/810 take photos just as well as the k850. The k850 may take a better photo here and there but, the consistency of the k800/810 make up for it. If you're happy than don't sign and enjoy photoshopping, playing with your cam-settings, and convincing yourself the pictures are greeeaaat!

Posted by EddieAdams

On 2008-04-26 18:05:34, mode wrote:

On 2008-04-26 16:52:36, NightBlade wrote:
I'm sure they know what they're doing. They aren't THAT stupid, you know.
Things aren't as simple as you describe them to be.

^^what he said. Well put

Posted by NightBlade

On 2008-04-26 18:05:34, mode wrote:

On 2008-04-26 16:52:36, NightBlade wrote:
I'm sure they know what they're doing. They aren't THAT stupid, you know.
Things aren't as simple as you describe them to be.

I'm sure they are. But I'm also sure that just putting a CCD sensor won't solve all their problems.

Posted by AbuBasim

On 2008-04-26 18:53:51, NightBlade wrote:
I'm sure they are. But I'm also sure that just putting a CCD sensor won't solve all their problems.

When I read the following in Mobile-review's review of the i-mobile 902:
But what really grabs our attention and what is the core of this very review, is the fact that I-Mobile’s handset carries a camera module that we are to see in a number of upcoming Sony Ericsson-branded phones in 2007. Even a fleeting glance unveils near resemblance of interface layout with Sony Ericsson K750i, which is not just all another coincidence – the camera is in fact made by Sony. In Sony Ericsson’s brand new handsets the camera’s UI will be revamped with more features coming up, but the basic quality of snaps, as well as approximate size of future handsets, can be checked out today.
. . . and saw some of the sample shots, like this one:

(Full size.)
. . . then I almost crapped myself when

introduced the K850i. And how the excitement turned into eye-watering disappointment when reading that it has a tiny, tiny CMOS sensor.

Posted by iksplusipsilon
...and it would be nice if we left "bashing" ( that I wholeheartedly support on this and some other issues ! ) on the other threads, and try to keep this one nice and clean and with as many "signatures" possible ?

Posted by kenoby
Here's mine. Hope there will be something coming up soon. To replace my K850 and P1i altogether...

Posted by Supa_Fly

On 2008-04-26 16:51:01, EddieAdams wrote:
After reading that the N82 took "best imaging device" in Europe I feel its time for SE to wake up. This is the second thread I have started on the topic. http://www.esato.com/board/viewtopic.php?topic=168485
Perhaps a petition thread could motivate SE. With the restrictive size of the sensors used in cell phones CMOS isn't cutting it. The images are "noisy" and inconsistent. As mentioned in my other thread the I-mobile 902(with a Sony CCD camera unit) still takes better images than any other camera phone.
If SE were to use CCD in their flagship C-series phone, not only would they reclaim the imaging crown, SE would surely have a best-seller on their hands. I would also like to see Xenon flash used.(Photolight is only a touch above led's)
If you agree and would like a product that could truly be considered a substitute for your stand-alone digtial camera then sign below. Feel free to comment as well.

_________________
Hello, Exactly!-Eddie Adams a.k.a. Dirk Diggler a.k.a. Brock Landers. Boogie Nights.

[ This Message was edited by: EddieAdams on 2008-04-26 17:17 ]

@ Eddie,

No offense but this is a lackluster petition without research for what you are asking. I'll try to be brief.

* CCD does NOT gaurantee a better image in camera phones under 10MP.
* CCD adds more weight and SIZE to the thickness of a phone: that "I-mobile 902" phone which I cannot even see the specs on dimensions on gsmarena.com is HUGE in the link at (http://www.mobile-review.com/review/imobile-902-en.shtml)! Its thickness surely based on the CCD module alone (miniSD, USB, volume buttons have NO effect on the engineering of a devices thickness like CCD does). SE abandoned CCD after teh S700/S710 - although promising it for the K750i because of mass hysteria - due to its more expensive cost & manufacturing compared to CMOS chips.
* That qualty CMOS module used in the K750i which STARTED QUALITY print photos taken by a cam-phone did PRETTY well. Modding on the K800/K790 algorhythms of the CMOS IMPROVED the K800's photos just like the K750i's. I see this trend happening with the K850 when XS++ can correctly update & modify the firmware/system files.
* THe Nokia N82 that won that award is ALSO CMOS sensor based - I'm willing to bet that if SE used a GLASS lens on the K850i then quality would suffice equal to that of the N82 in most if not ALL conditions.
* Currently there is less than 5 camera phones by ANY manufacturer WORLDWIDE that uses CMOS in a recent production model (less than 1yr) on the market today!

There you have it. Some quick research to back up my emotions on this subject. I'm not trying to tell ppl what they should decide or not JUST trying to help them be MORE INFORMED before making a rash decision.

I think the petition should change its angle, but I'm STILL for the BEST quality in cybershot phones in the future. My suggestions (if you'll allow) are:

* Use GLASS lenses in ALL Cybershot phones from now on co-designed by various or single lens crafters.
* Test & if "quality" pics are proven; consider using that Varioptic -Liquid Optical lense module: http://www.engadget.com/2008/[....]acturing-liquid-camera-lenses/
& http://www.advancedimagingpro[....]-Lenses-for-Cell-Phones/3$4978
for use in future

Cybershot cam-phones. Why? Their faster and use LES S Power - 2 major things for SE to consider.
* No more touch-capacitance or touch-sensitive keys on future Cybershot phones. Although the design is incredible many users have too much of a learning curve to adjust to it.
* Powerful processing & Power-efficient cpu's in ALL future

phones! NEAR IMMEDIATE future. This OS was designed for speed & efficiency, and lately its lagging due to the strain that A2 platform is giving it. The platform is PERFECT save for no WiFi; but using OLDER cpu's is just too much. SO my suggestion is for SE engineers and Head of Mobile Engineering to NO LONGER committ to more than 1yr cpu sourcing deals so that each year we're using current and powerful cpu's that keep the systems performing fast, efficiently and effectively without killing battery consumption rates that we're used to nor killing consumer appreciation for using their phone past 30 days

.

Please, tell me if I stepped on any shoes, or went overboard, pls & thx.

Posted by hgautam
Me too... A CCD lens, Xenon flash plus a 3x Optical Zoom are a must, a 2 LED photoflash in addition to these would be a bonus...

But a nightblade said, only putting CCD is not enough... I hope SE doesn't over smoothes or oversharpens the images like K850...

Posted by sadeghi85
IMO a relatively big CMOS sensor with low megapixels will do the job, a camera in phone is just for fun after all, but yeah for those crazy megapixels and to have acceptable pixel quality, a CCD sensor is inevitable. so i'm in.

Posted by QVGA
SE needs a N93i like phone. An all out dedication to video/camera. Screw the size and weight conscious people!

Posted by hgautam
@Prom1

Sorry bro but I do not agree with your points... And what is this "lackluster petition without research"??? Do you think we all here are mad or stupid??? Rather it seems you haven't done enough research, or even seen pics from i-mobile 902...

Answers for just a few of your points:

On 2008-04-26 21:57:06, Prom1 wrote:
* CCD does NOT gaurantee a better image in camera phones under 10MP.

In camera phones, it sure does... We all agree here...

* CCD adds more weight and SIZE to the thickness of a phone

Ofcourse, K850, G800, N82, etc. are just so slim??? WOW??? Right???

Come on dude, CCD is not that heavy or big or thick as you think...

Both SE S700 and W900 are 24mm thick and guess what??? S700 has a CCD lens and W900 doesn't... Also, S700 weights 137 g and W900 weights 148 g... So W900 is as thick as S700 and more heavier but still doesn't have a CCD lens??? What's the reason???

Here are links for spec:
S700 - http://www.sonyericsson.com/c[....]ecifications/s700i?cc=in&lc=en

W900 - http://www.sonyericsson.com/c[....]ecifications/w900i?cc=in&lc=en

So your point that CCD is big, thick and heavy is not so right...

Also, CCD is not so costly either, i-mobile 902 aint't that costly... Isn't that proof enough??? How much of a cost would a CCD add???

I am more concerned about quality of pictures in a Cybershot branded phone than anything else... It's SE who's at loss and they are not only loosing their own image but also Sony's and Cybershot brand... And I am not saying it, this is what is actually happening and now even average people have realised this... The same is happening with even Walkman phones...

Are these points enough or do you need to be explained further???

[ This Message was edited by: hgautam on 2008-04-26 21:44 ]

Posted by Duran
I agree, but still it's not like the image quality is absolutely disastrous

[ This Message was edited by: Duran on 2008-04-26 22:13 ]

Posted by iksplusipsilon
@Duran That is just another way of saying it is mediocre ... :-)

This message was posted from a WAP device

Posted by A L 3 X
i'm sorry.....but why the f**k are we having a petition for what a company puts into their mobile phones? I know I sound like an eco-mentalist here but I think there are more important things in our lives to worry about and in the world such as people starving in Africa yet all you guys think about is what frigging sensor is put in a camera?

Meh..........

Posted by iksplusipsilon
ok,I agree ... so what is your suggestion we should do about it ?

This message was posted from a WAP device

Posted by A L 3 X
about what?

stop making shitty petitions about things that hardly matter except to geeks who will wank over this kind of thing

Posted by NightBlade

On 2008-04-26 23:53:29, theos wrote:
ok,I agree ... so what is your suggestion we should do about it ?

This message was posted from a WAP device

We should feed the people of Africa!!!

But seriously, CCD IS thicker and more power-consuming. That's a big no-no in the world of cell phones. I also doubt it'll improve the quality of the pics that much.
And besides, who are we to tell them how to build their cameraphones?

[ This Message was edited by: NightBlade on 2008-04-26 23:02 ]

Posted by iksplusipsilon
^ About those "more important" things you mentioned ... and there is no need for flaming ...

This message was posted from a WAP device

edit : sorry NightBlade, this was aimed at carkitter

[ This Message was edited by: theos on 2008-04-27 07:23 ]

Posted by NightBlade
I was just kidding.

Posted by A L 3 X
I was using africa as an example.....I dont really do much to help them but I was also saying do you not have more important things in your life than losing sleep over how the cameras in SE's new mobile phones(AFAIK this was an item designed for communicating with people...i'm unsure now though) will perform?

And yes I will flame because i think its pathetic

Posted by F-Lexx
we-re the ones interested in buying their products. the consumers. and the consumers are alwais right, it's the first 'law' of the economy

Posted by A L 3 X
and how often does that rule stay true?

You buy a phone or other product if it has the right specifications you want....you don't make a petition trying to force SE to make a phone you want -.-

Will anyone sign a petition to try and force airwaves to make the flavour in their chewing gum last longer?

Posted by iksplusipsilon
well, as this is site dedicated to mobile phones, I see no reason why we shouldn't discuss, petition or what ever we feel like it about one important feature of today mobile devices as we see fit. I tried to be polite previously, but only pathetic coment on this thread was the one you posted. I mean, we all know what are we talking about here ...cameras in SE phones. You,on the other hand, have gone trough troubles of writing your posts just to inform us that we are idiots for discussing something that interests us, while offering nothing constructive on the subject ... what does that makes you ? Who is the one without a life here ? + you did not invent a wheel by saying that this will will have no effect. Yes we all aware of that, but every attempt is whortwhile in my opinion and discussing it here is much more interesting than mumbling "sh...ty SE camera" in my beard while looking at the pictures I took with my SE on my PC and doing nothing ...

This message was posted from a WAP device

Posted by EddieAdams

On 2008-04-27 00:01:58, NightBlade wrote:

On 2008-04-26 23:53:29, theos wrote:
ok,I agree ... so what is your suggestion we should do about it ?

This message was posted from a WAP device

We should feed the people of Africa!!!

Yeah, the current line of 5mp camera phones are SO slender

CCD affecting battery life is minimal compared to the benefit. WE are the people that buy the product. Who better to tell them how to build their phones? If you need proof of how MUCH better CCD is than CMOS on the scale that is used in cell phones than look up I-mobile 902 photos. The difference is HUGE.

Posted by EddieAdams

On 2008-04-26 23:43:49, A L 3 X wrote:
i'm sorry.....but why the f**k are we having a petition for what a company puts into their mobile phones? I know I sound like an eco-mentalist here but I think there are more important things in our lives to worry about and in the world such as people starving in Africa yet all you guys think about is what frigging sensor is put in a camera?

Meh..........

I'm sure you've made huge contributions to fight hunger

and you lose sleep every night thinking about those kids on the info-mercials. This is a cell-phone forum dedicated primarily to SE. What are you doing with a cell phone? Do you know how many mouths you could feed?!?!? Add in your monthly bill and you're taking care of a whole village! You and Sally Struthers could solve the worlds hunger issue together.

Posted by Supa_Fly

On 2008-04-26 22:40:25, hgautam wrote:
@Prom1

Sorry bro but I do not agree with your points... And what is this "lackluster petition without research"??? Do you think we all here are mad or stupid??? Rather it seems you haven't done enough research, or even seen pics from i-mobile 902...

Answers for just a few of your points:

On 2008-04-26 21:57:06, Prom1 wrote:
* CCD does NOT gaurantee a better image in camera phones under 10MP.

In camera phones, it sure does... We all agree here...

* CCD adds more weight and SIZE to the thickness of a phone

Ofcourse, K850, G800, N82, etc. are just so slim??? WOW??? Right???

Are these points enough or do you need to be explained further???

[ This Message was edited by: hgautam on 2008-04-26 21:44 ]

Sorry hgautam; but you have not made your point clear nor decisive enough. Its ok not to agree - but sharing points on either side of the table helps in understanding & maybe even to your own cause with this petition. If you re-read my post I was not SIMPLY talking of size of CCD cameras vs CMOS ... it was just 1 of my points. Please reread and NOT take my points out of context.

The N82 WON the TIPA award WITH CMOS sensor NOT CCD. And everyone here can agree its pictures in most if not ALL situations are BETTER than the K850i. This is just a chaulk up to my point being valid that a CCD sensor alone will NOT gaurantee better quality pictures in a cam phone. You however seem to think it will, along with the thread host. I stated more than several posts that would "enhance" any type of sensor in use, something many here are choosing to ignore or not take the time to post what CAN improve either sensor of choice for quality pictures.

Comparing the size of 2 very old phones in thickness is not enough to prove that CCD's are not large vs CMOS. Both the S700/710 & W900 are HUGE in comparison.

Size comparisons:

S700 - 107 x 49 x 24 mm, 137 g, (CCD sensor, S710 both SE's ONLY CCD phone)
S710 - 107.5 x 49 x 24.5 mm, 137g (a N.American version of the S700)
W810 - 100 x 46 x 19.5 mm, 99g (CMOS sensor)
K750 - 100 x 46 x 20.5 mm, 99g (CMOS sensor)
W900 - 109.0 x 49.0 x 24.0 mm (CMOS sensor, btw)
K800 - 105 x 47 x 22 mm (CMOS Sensor) that lens cover added to size.
K810 - 106.0 x 48.0 x 17.0 mm (CMOS) Lens cover change reduced size!
K850 - 102 x 48 x 17 mm, 118g (CMOS)
C702 - 106.0 x 48.0 x 16.0 mm, 105g (CMOS)
C902 - 108 x 49 x 10.5 mm, 107g (CMOS) - 14mm THINNER thats just over 1INCH!

Even though still 2mm thinner by minimum to 14mm (either depending on case design, or

's lack of willingness to go thinner in Candybar style phones for Cybershot branding) its STILL thinner. Now many will say the S700/710 was hampared by its design making it simply thicker. Anyone have the thickness of the i-mobile 902 phone? Its also candybar in design. Hey, wait a minute, lets not just limit it to the 2year old phone here (that mobile-review article was Published — 13 November 2006), but with other CCD cam phones. Stop comparing phones of 2+yrs older in size & features compared to the same for non CCD of the same period.

Other 5MP camera phones: Samsung U900 SOul, G600, Nokia N82, N95 (all versions), N96, and a few others are all CMOS sensor phones. Unless I'm mistaken. Can anyone still come up to my challenge of a CCD camera phone in production within the past year that offers the same thickness? I don't know of the Sharp 904SH or similar phones use CMOS/CCD sensors though. Wait a minute, the Sharp 901SH has 5MP camera with 3x Optical Zoom. Its size is: 106 x 50 x 24mm, 139g. Its a flip phone but its still LARGE; I'll bet if you combine all chipsets on 1 single motherboard it'll be slightly thicker. IF you disagree, then show me a Samsung CCD phone in candybar offering same or similar features in camera - even a 3.2MP model and compare size??

As far as I'm aware, the K750i & W810i BOTH offered incredible pictures; mainly better than the S700! Not initially for the K750, but as production weeks progressed it did. Take a look at the photos in the "Post your K750i pictures, videos here" thread, and compare them to the S700 picture thread, as well as the massive appreciation of each.

So, although you and others in this thread disagree, my points are still valid and based on facts, not emotion.
_________________

T18z|T39m twice loveless|:SE: K750|W810| BB Pearl|K790a|K850i. I

5MP & auto focus. I

Tri-band HSDPA.

[ This Message was edited by: Prom1 on 2008-04-27 03:00 ]

Posted by AbuBasim

On 2008-04-26 21:57:06, Prom1 wrote:
* CCD does NOT gaurantee a better image in camera phones under 10MP.

That's an odd statement. Have you seen any camera phones with cameras at or above 10 MP? Do you have the source for this information? CCD is more sensitive than CMOS. Compare IMX020, the CMOS sensor in the K850i with ICX495, i-mobile 902's CCD sensor (also used in several 5 MP P&S cameras!). Take note of the specs on the second page in both PDFs. See the sensitivity data? Do you see that the ICX495 is three times more sensitive than the IMX020? Do you still think that this has no impact on photo quality?

Have a look at the i-mobile 902 photos we have posted here, feel free to look at the photos at full size to see the lack of noise. And then compare with what you can produce with your K850i... Ask yourself, which camera phone produces photos that still looks good when printed at A4 (8x10")? Which of these camera phones would you use if you were to shoot some good low light shots and didn't have access to a proper digicam?

* CCD adds more weight and SIZE to the thickness of a phone: that "I-mobile 902" phone which I cannot even see the specs on dimensions on gsmarena.com is HUGE in the link at (http://www.mobile-review.com/review/imobile-902-en.shtml)! Its thickness surely based on the CCD module alone

The i-mobile 902 is almost exactly the same size as the K850i, only half a millimeter thicker ( that's 1/50" for you people using US units). And the weight of the i-mobile 902 is 100 grams. What is the weight of the K850i?

On 2008-04-27 03:57:27, Prom1 wrote:
IF you disagree, then show me a Samsung CCD phone in candybar offering same or similar features in camera - even a 3.2MP model and compare size??

Not candybar but clamshell: Samsung Z710: size 96.7 x 47.5 x 20.5 mm and weight is 108 grams. SE only has one clamshell with a 3MP camera, the W980 and it's size is 92 x 46 x 16.9 mm and weight 100 grams. I would assume that CCD would add to thickness and not length nor width. The Z710 is less than 4 mm thicker and 8 grams heavier. Not a HUGE difference I would say. I would definitely take the risk of developing a hernia by carrying an 8 grams heavier phone in my pocket if it takes better photos. Looking at the Z710, I would assume that the difference in weight is due to the design of the display and how it not only does fold up but also can be turned around:

_________________
Snuck! It's ointment time! -- Mad Jack the Pirate

[ This Message was edited by: AbuBasim on 2008-04-27 05:41 ]

[ This Message was edited by: AbuBasim on 2008-04-27 07:55 ]

Posted by A L 3 X

On 2008-04-27 01:54:16, EddieAdams wrote:

I'm sure you've made huge contributions to fight hunger

I've already said I havent....apart from contributing to buy a goat at school lol :s

I may aswell give up because not matter what I say your porno collection is still gonna consist of magazines like "Mobile Choice" and video clips like "The Gadget Show" -.-

Posted by KingBooker5
I may aswell give up because not matter what I say your porno collection is still gonna consist of magazines like "Mobile Choice" and video clips like "The Gadget Show" -.-

[/quote]

Thats the funniest thing I heard all day

On the topic, SE are NOT stupid for using CMOS or what ever you call it. If you look at it this way, Sony are half of Sony Ericsson, and correct me if im wrong, Sony also are a company which make numerous products, including cameras! SE are not retarded, if they started using all these sensors they use in their top end cyber shot CAMERAS, the money they make for their cameras will go down as no one will buy them, as after all, people can get all this stuff in one device, there will be no need to buy a camera. This will have a small affect on the rate of phones they sell, but a massive affect on the amount of cameras they sell.

A lot of you lot don't know how the market runs, because if you did, you would have thought of that. Think about it this way,

are not to botherd if they are not selling as much phones as LG or Nokia, at the end of the day, it all comes down to money, and who has the most money? Sony Ericsson. Why? Because they have money from Sony, Sony sell thousands of stuff, TV's, Radios, Game Consoles, you name it, every electronical device, sony makes. Nokia proberly dreams to have as much cash as Sony. I doubt very much SE will incorperate CCD sensors, many people are unaware of how it all runs, to these people, the more mega pixels they hear, the more they like it, with the Cyber-Shot sticker stuck on the phone, they praticly wan't to rape the phone before it even comes out, then try to have sex with it all over again. (look at Plankgaton, enough said, in sony ericssons case, people will need new firmware before they can have a proper "passionate" expiriance with the phone

) People emidiately believe, the more mega pixels the better, which obviously is not true, but this marketing ploy works and its gonna continue.

It will be very intresting to hear the rate of sony cameras being sold, in the years SE breifly used CCD sensors.

Posted by Supa_Fly
Now FINALLY a rebuttal with information against my own. THANK you!
This is going to be tough.

On 2008-04-27 06:16:54, AbuBasim wrote:

On 2008-04-26 21:57:06, Prom1 wrote:
* CCD does NOT gaurantee a better image in camera phones under 10MP.

the i-mobile 902's is a 1.3MP camera phone is it not? WHy then would ANY company choose to use it in a 5MP resolution - would that NOT ruin the quality? The second nor the first link tell me NOTHING about the i-Mobile 902 using EITHER sensor, but some of the photos do state 5MP, not hte sensor in use. Cool. Of note The 3rd photo posted (http://www.esato.com/phonephotos/viewphotos.php?pid=11183&make=samart&model=i-mobile+902) here on Esato by yourself states:
Make SAMART
Model i-mobile 902
Exposure Time 1/250 sec
Aperture f/5.6
ISO 50
Scene Normal
Flash used Flash did not fire
Image resolution 1.92 mega pixels (1600 x 1200)
Date/Time 2008-04-04 10:14:26

THe black bar at the bottom of the shot is just black; devoid of any contrast. Surely a CCD with such sensitivity should relay this much more clearly. However, I have a very old LCD that shows dark areas at the top of my screen - needs replacement; but this is at the bottom of my LCD screen. Also note that the blue in the DOmino's Pizza store is not a dark blue but slightly faded. It SHOULD be the same color as the blue under the pizza (botton left corner) in the storefront picture in the window. At least with marketing material in my end of the world - marketing for different countries does change ad material so I'll omit that from my judgement.

On 2008-04-27 06:16:54, AbuBasim wrote:
Have a look at the i-mobile 902 photos we have posted here, feel free to look at the photos at full size to see the lack of noise. And then compare with what you can produce with your K850i... Ask yourself, which camera phone produces photos that still looks good when printed at A4 (8x10")? Which of these camera phones would you use if you were to shoot some good low light shots and didn't have access to a proper digicam?

To be honest only the 4th, 5th,7th (greens come out ok), 8th (if it was at full 5MP), 9th (because I like the ant), 10th (VW - its obligatory print

), and the 12th pictures I'd print at 8x11.1/2 (I'm Canadian and A4 is non-standard to us). However, I've noticed the photos you've posted do NOT have a lot of vibrant color - the TRUE test of ANY type of sensor, lens, & quality of ANY camera: Phone or otherwise! the 8th photo of the Mobo even though a good macro its still somewhat blurred (almost like an intentional effect of sorts). Same goes for the ANT photo, around the legs. I cannot SEE those little "hooks" or "hairs" ON those legs; yet many Macros taken by the K850i's or even the K800/810's of bugs show those hairs in GREAT detail - undoctored as well. As I've said CCD ALONE does NOT guarantee a QUALITY photo in any way taken.

On 2008-04-27 06:16:54, AbuBasim wrote:

What is the weight in mm pls (I've posted in mm, and I'm NOT American nor use Imperial systems of measurements - I'm Canadian). The K850i has an internal shutter, motion-sensor, Tri-band 3G HSDPA chipset with quadband GSM/EDGE which as well which contributes to the weight (K850 - 102 x 48 x 17 mm, 118g).

On 2008-04-27 06:16:54, AbuBasim wrote:

On 2008-04-27 03:57:27, Prom1 wrote:
IF you disagree, then show me a Samsung CCD phone in candybar offering same or similar features in camera - even a 3.2MP model and compare size??

[ This Message was edited by: AbuBasim on 2008-04-27 05:41 ]

[ This Message was edited by: AbuBasim on 2008-04-27 07:55 ]

Btw, that Samsung z710 from gsmarena link states 108 g as the weight & 3.1mm thicker. You failed to mention that the W980i also has a motion-sensor (adding size) & 8GB Flash (which will add to the weight) imbedded. I did however mention before that SE seems to stay at the same thickness relatively since the K750/W800i back in 2005 - 20.5mm. The W810 - 19.5mm, and like the K750i had the thick MSDuoPro slot, when that was gone, both the K850i & K810 have the same thickness. With today's technologies these phones can be slimmer - again you failed to notice the other 5MP CMOS phone I mentioned and ITS thickness - C902 10.5mm @ 107grams (also not the G900 a smartphone with WIFi & 5MP CMOS is 13mm thick @ 99grams). Again no CCD phone is that THIN on the market - yet you DID come close with the z710 by Samsung.

Great rebuttal though.
PS: I don't just rely on specs on "paper", were how it performs is the true connection we have to gadgets.

Cheers.

Posted by max_wedge
I've gotta agree with prom1 I'm afraid. I don't think SE need to use a CCD sensor. It's more that they just need to stop using crappy sensors and go back to the quality standard that was set by K750.

They tried to fix the noise problem of the K750 by increasing noise filtering on later cameras. Whereas what they should be doing is simply increasing the quality of the sensor. They can do this without resorting to CCD.

Actually I'm surprised that Sony (who developed the camera module for the K750) haven't gone ahead in leaps and bounds. They really should have 5MP cmos sensors by now that are good enough quality to keep noise low without having to use noise filtering.

I really don't care if they use CMOS or CCD, as long as they get the quality back up to scratch.

Posted by iksplusipsilon
@ A L 3 X That would have been funny indeed ... if it wasn't coming from a teen with 500+ posts . I won't even comment on the goat thing ... lay of the porn, get youself a real GF, too much wanking builds the stress up ...

This message was posted from a WAP device

Posted by crossmatched

please improve and place importance in QUALITY rather than quantity...

Shiho by all means should regain the lost imaging throne.
the connecting people must only be a runner up in imaging.

with its Cybershot phones should (always) be the winner..

Posted by lennyv87
I just wanna say that they just have to make one high-end phone with CCD, to test reactions.

Posted by AbuBasim

On 2008-04-27 23:21:03, Prom1 wrote:
the i-mobile 902's is a 1.3MP camera phone is it not?

No, it's a 5 MP camera phone, with interpolation up to 8 MP, much like K700's interpolated 1 MP mode.

The second nor the first link tell me NOTHING about the i-Mobile 902 using EITHER sensor, but some of the photos do state 5MP, not hte sensor in use.

I disassembled my first i-mobile 902 to confirm that the sensor is an ICX495. I posted a couple of photos of that last year in the i-mobile 902 photos thread.

(http://www.esato.com/phonephotos/viewphotos.php?pid=11183&make=samart&model=i-mobile+902) here on Esato by yourself states:
Make SAMART
Model i-mobile 902
Exposure Time 1/250 sec
Aperture f/5.6
ISO 50
Scene Normal
Flash used Flash did not fire
Image resolution 1.92 mega pixels (1600 x 1200)
Date/Time 2008-04-04 10:14:26

THe black bar at the bottom of the shot is just black; devoid of any contrast. Surely a CCD with such sensitivity should relay this much more clearly.

I shot that photo in 2 MP mode when doing a comparison with my HTC TyTN. That the bottom part is black is due to the exposure. The photo was shot in bright daylight, and then scene is the view from the balcony from our living room. The lower dark part is the inside part of the balcony and since it's sunny that part doesn't receive much light with the faster shutter and smaller aperture.

Also note that the blue in the DOmino's Pizza store is not a dark blue but slightly faded. It SHOULD be the same color as the blue under the pizza (botton left corner) in the storefront picture in the window. At least with marketing material in my end of the world - marketing for different countries does change ad material so I'll omit that from my judgement.

The shot of the Domino's Pizza was shot early afternoon with very bright sunlight. (The lower part of the photo is a tinted passenger window.) Here in Muscat we don't get a lot of clouds. Bright sunlight usually have a tendency to drain colors when shooting pictures. Also, I have set the color saturation to medium on purpose.

As I've said CCD ALONE does NOT guarantee a QUALITY photo in any way taken.

You added "ALONE" this time. Maybe the i-mobile 902 is not the world's best camera phone. It does sometimes have problem with WB. Indoors I can't use Auto WB and have to set it manually. And the lens could be better as the edges of some shots gets blurred. But the quality of some of the shots it's able to produce is maybe an indication of what a similar phone from SE or Nokia would be capable of. I'm thinking Nokia here especially since they use Carl Zeiss lenses. How much better the N82 would have been with CCD?

What is the weight in mm pls (I've posted in mm, and I'm NOT American nor use Imperial systems of measurements - I'm Canadian).

When did Canada start measuring weight with length units?

The K850i has an internal shutter, motion-sensor, Tri-band 3G HSDPA chipset with quadband GSM/EDGE which as well which contributes to the weight (K850 - 102 x 48 x 17 mm, 118g).

Yes, but the point about CCD adding bulk to a phone doesn't hold up.

On 2008-04-28 03:21:38, max_wedge wrote:
I've gotta agree with prom1 I'm afraid. I don't think SE need to use a CCD sensor. It's more that they just need to stop using crappy sensors and go back to the quality standard that was set by K750.

Another point about the 902 is how it is not tuned for user friendliness but instead IQ (image quality). The slow shutter speeds it uses require the use of tripod or some other support. It's night mode is the unique feature that is not present in any other camera phone; 4 seconds shutter speed! Most other phone producers concentrate on usability before image quality which I think is a pity. If were truly interested in good Cyber-shot phones they could still keep their CMOS sensors, slight larger perhaps (1/2.5" instead of 1/2.8" as used in the K850), and add some more options to the camera: ISO 50, manual shutter speed selection, variable aperture. The night mode on most CMOS camera phones just boost ISO (and also noise!) in low light shots. The 902 does it the completely other way: ISO 50 and very slow shutter.

Posted by hgautam
@prom1

You still didn't got it, do you???

You are just coming up with things that backup CMOS but you are forgeting the benefits of a CCD...

The main advantage of CCD is when taking pics in dark/low light environments and in the day time it's atleast as good as CMOS... You can agree to that???

The main point is:

On 2008-04-28 06:34:05, lennyv87 wrote:
I just wanna say that they just have to make one high-end phone with CCD, to test reactions.

That's it... SE's flahship high end cyberhots will indeed be thick even if they are CMOS, so why not put a CCD in it??? It's quite simple but it seems you don't and will not understand what I am saying and I ain't gonna try to make you understand any further...

[ This Message was edited by: hgautam on 2008-04-28 09:39 ]

Posted by HotXRock
@hgautam

Do you personally understand what you're writing yourself? Yeah, K850 is already thick and this is exactly why it wouldn't be a good idea to put CCD sensor.

Maybe you think that K850 is an empty case? If it is thick even with CMOS, CCD would make K850 thicker.

[ This Message was edited by: HotXRock on 2008-04-28 09:52 ]

Posted by EddieAdams

A L 3 X wrote:

I've already said I havent....apart from contributing to buy a goat at school lol :s

I may aswell give up because not matter what I say your porno collection is still gonna consist of magazines like "Mobile Choice" and video clips like "The Gadget Show" -.-

OK >500 posts guy but, I'm the geek? Wish I was a geek, actually. They've come a long way and basically run the world. Would love to be more tech-savvy. Can't even flash a phone.
I can't emphasize how FAR off you are by calling me a geek and what a douche you sound like. Yet, I can't defend it because that would mean being a "geek" is a bad thing. So I won't. I can tell you that as a freshman in HS I played Varsity in 2 sports and went on to a full-scholarship for baseball in college. So keep it up A L (I'm so cool I'm gonna put a "3" instead of a "E", chicks are gonna love it) X and also I prefer old-school porn, not a big fan of silicone it doesn't feel or move naturally....and who has a "porno collection" anymore anyway? It's called the internet A L "3" X you should try it. Oh man that "3" thing is just terrific, can I borrow it? Can I be "3ddieAdams" or even "3ddie4dams". Just awesome, f33ling l3ss "g33ky" alr3ady. Douche.....

Posted by AbuBasim
Eddie,

Surely you must mean ph331i|\|9 1355 933|<Ψ?

[ This Message was edited by: AbuBasim on 2008-04-28 16:55 ]

Posted by A L 3 X

On 2008-04-28 17:02:50, EddieAdams wrote:

first of all you try and bring the geek thing back to me because of my post count but then you say I should open my eyes to the internet.....you seem to contradict yourself and you should read through your replies before posting them(or get your mother to help you) when trying to act smart. And if you notice most of my posts have nothing to do with mobile phones or how many gazillion pixels they have........I don't have a clue what all that freshman bullshit is so I won't comment on it....and as for douche, that's a typical American thing to say.

Some thing that makes me laugh is I don't see how an earth you can pick fault with my username when you can't think of anything more imaginative than whats written on your birth certificate, I can think of a better one already, i think "Professor Frink" would be more suitable, and somehow I doubt many "chicks" will visit a forum dedicated to mobile phones and even if they did I don't really see why they would be impressed by the number "3"......if that has impressed any of your girlfriends(if you've ever had any) then they must be pretty interesting.....

On 2008-04-28 04:33:16, theos wrote:
@ A L 3 X That would have been funny indeed ... if it wasn't coming from a teen with 500+ posts . I won't even comment on the goat thing ... lay of the porn, get youself a real GF, too much wanking builds the stress up ...

This message was posted from a WAP device

Theos I was merely trying to relate to the geeks like you....who never leave their house except to go to gadget shops and would only talk to male staff as they would be a bit embarassed talking to girls....I like the way you posted that from the wap device aswell there haha

Thanks for taking the time to read this Eddie....now you can get back to your totally un-geek-like discussion of
"Petition for SE to use CCD in their top C-series phones"

Posted by Sony α
LOL - You guys Crack me up, this is the most fun I have seen in a Thread for ages lol, can I be '3ddi3 Adams' lol

And, AbuBasim - lol, dude - I had to try hard to read your post lol!

@A L 3 X

'and as for douche, that's a typical American thing to say.' - Come on, thats going too far Dude - no need for it...

Also, in reply to your comment about the Thread - you post here too, so lets keep it calm and constructive, not fiery and destructive...

A L 3 X, im sure you have a vast knowledge filled mind filled by Facts and Figures - but be selective in what you post, telling us you contributed to a Goat purchse for your Educational institute, does not help us any further to having CCD Sony Ericsson phones.

_________________
Sony αlphα.

imaging.like.no.other

www.mypumas.net

[ This Message was edited by: Sony α on 2008-04-28 17:28 ]

Posted by A L 3 X

On 2008-04-28 18:20:18, Sony α wrote:
LOL - You guys Crack me up, this is the most fun I have seen in a Thread for ages lol, can I be '3ddi3 Adams' lol

And, AbuBasim - lol, dude - I had to try hard to read your post lol!

@A L 3 X

'and as for douche, that's a typical American thing to say.' - Come on, thats going too far Dude - no need for it...

Also, in reply to your comment about the Thread - you post here too, so lets keep it calm and constructive, not fiery and destructive...

A L 3 X, im sure you have a vast knowledge filled mind filled by Facts and Figures - but be selective in what you post, telling us you contributed to a Goat purchse for your Educational institute, does not help us any further to having CCD Sony Ericsson phones.

I didn't want to say that....i was asked what i've done....which granted isn't much but they asked....and as for the thread....I don't really give a crap what sensors SE put in their phones....thats my point

and my comment about being called a douche....i'm being serious.....I wasn't intending to take anything too far.

Thanks for the compliment though...

_________________

[ This Message was edited by: A L 3 X on 2008-04-28 17:40 ]

Posted by NightBlade
Masseur, I think it's time now.

Posted by Sony α
@NightBlade

Its okay Dude - A L 3 X didn't mean any harm to anyone - things just got a bit out of hand, but im sure the thread can continue nicely, and discuss the CCD issue...

Masseur, lets keep it open - don't lock the thread - however, anymore Arguments and then yes - Agreed, lock it up...

Posted by sadeghi85

On 2008-04-28 18:47:33, Sony α wrote:

... but im sure the thread can continue nicely, and discuss the CCD issue...

Ok it can, but i suggest deleting irrelevant posts (including this, lol).