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Help wanted: Nokia N70 or SE K800? |
mr_lou
Joined: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 403
From: Denmark
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mib1800
BUT I think it is just pure hypocritical for someone (refering to general sense) to say N70 is inferior to K800 "just because you dont need those functions". . Just imaging if I say K800 is inferior to N70 because I don't prefer that stupid hump at the back of K800. What would your reaction be?
I would probably shake my head and think: “What a silly man”. 
Are you kidding? Java can do ziltch except for games. I think you have no idea what some of the Symbian apps can do. Java is just very far from useful or no developer is attempting to develop more advance apps for this platform which comes to same thing.
Not kidding. I know the advantages of Symbian. I’m simply claiming that you can get a lot longer with Java today than you probably think you can. Also, phones don’t just come with Java. They come with a bunch of API’s as well, which you can use with Java. With applications like messengers, calculators, navigation-programs with GPS support, browsers such as Opera, RSS readers, file-explorers with FTP, text-editors, remote control systems of your PC, Word document and PDF viewers etc, Java phones are not as simple as most people think anymore. And now people are beginning to write emulators in J2ME as well, such as Gameboy emulators, ZX and Commodore64. Because of these things, people do consider the W800/K750 to be almost a PDA. At least I’ve heard it from a few salespeople, and I agree.
But apart from that, I did say, and I do still think, that K800 beats the N70 in every aspect except for the Symbian OS and video-recording. That is my opinion after having tried both phones in the shop. I’m not just talking about what’s inside the phones, but also how they are built.
Symbian OS is nice and is does give much more flexible applications compared to what Java can do, but when it’s that slow I prefer the fast K800 instead, with Java that gives me much of the stuff Symbian can give me, though far from everything Symbian can give me.
Java also has the upside that stuff that runs on an older Nokia 6610 also works on newer devices. Symbian applications are divided into “Series 60 1st’n’2nd edition”, “Series 60 3rd edition”, “UIQ2” and “UIQ3” applications etc, so you can’t expect that the stuff your mate is running on his Symbian phone will also work on your Symbian phone, because it’s probably not available. Java applications are written for either MIDP1 or MIDP2 phones and all MIDP1 apps works on MIDP2 phones as well. That said, there will also be applications written for Java phones with a specific API, but I consider that to be a different scenario.
Anyway, when it all comes down to it, it will always be nothing more than a matter of taste. It’s not that I prefer Java over Symbian. I’ve always wanted to try out the P900, but I think it’s too big. I might get the M600 though. Depends on what I think of it, after having tried it in the shop…
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dotsis
Joined: Jan 03, 2006
Posts: 149
From: here, there and everywhere.
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Mib is bob on.What person in the right frame of mind would choose the k800 over a s60 3rd edition.I'd rather have a 7610 or other old model than any k series crap, seriously!
This message was posted from a Nokia |
jack77777
Joined: Apr 11, 2006
Posts: > 500
From: uk/england.
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nokia = there trying too hard.
sony ericsson = not bothered but like to stick with there projects.
samsung = good phones their starting to come into shape.
motorola = for kids.
all phones are good 
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Chazzer3
Joined: Mar 23, 2004
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From: Edinburgh, UK
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You should wait for the N73, then you get good video, pretty much the best mobile cam, (overall), symbian, amazing screen etc etc.
I'm waiting for it.
Charlie - |
baconnugget
Joined: Jun 08, 2005
Posts: 429
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i had the n70, imo the k800 is alot better, but the n73 look good as the k800 imo |
mib1800
Joined: Mar 18, 2004
Posts: > 500
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mr_lou
would probably shake my head and think: “What a silly man”.
hmmmm....(hope you knew what u r implicating)
Also, phones don’t just come with Java. They come with a bunch of API’s as well, which you can use with Java.....with Java that gives me much of the stuff Symbian can give me
K800 does not have APIs other than what supported java. K800 may have advance Java support but it is nowhere near symbian. Like I say, nobody has develop any serious apps for K800 and I doubt there will be.
And certainly none that can match something like the following on my N70 (I just give a few of my favorite):-
1. Call Management. When I call or my phone rings, a dashboard (see below) is automatically shown and I can use number keys to select an operation like record conversation or reject with a sms, activate the phone answering machine or use smart-talk. It can be set to a default action if I dont do anything. It can also do auto-reject my black listed numbers.
2. Cell-based "gps" (dont need gps receiver or subscription). Knowing cell locations, phone can auto do stuff. E.g. when I pick up my sister from work, once I reach a certain point in the route the phone will auto-sms her telling her to be at pickup point. Or when I enter my home, phone will automatic change to "home" profile and deactivate my bluetooth and vice-versa if I leave my home.
3. Profile Management (add-on) - auto activate/reset profile based on calendar/time entries. Additionally can tie phone operations to profile change like switching theme, activate an application etc. I used this in conjunction with cell gps/calendar. E.g. set meeting entries in my calendar and phone auto activate "meeting" profile during meeting period. When I enter certain location,the phone auto switch profile and at the same time auto-switch the theme. So my phone UI always have a refreshing look.
4. Voice notes: At any time I press a hot key and phone will start recording a voice memo. After that I can set the voice into the calendar just like any entries.
5. Advance music player supporting ogg format.
So IMO, because of Symbian, N70 beats K800 in everything except camera and battery life. |
mr_lou
Joined: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 403
From: Denmark
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mib1800
Before I begin, let me just emphasize, that a device with 100 features isn’t necessarily better than a device with 50 features. It’s easy to stuff a device with lots of features that’s really useless to the general public. BUT, it’s a matter of taste of course.
Further more, it seems you keep forgetting that I’m not claiming the K800 is better than a Symbian device. I’m merely saying, that in my opinion the K800 beats the N70 in every aspect except the Symbian OS and video-recording.. You seem to concentrate on that N70 is better because of Symbian OS, while forgetting all other things… including that I’m not disagreeing with you when you say that Symbian is nice. But I don’t like the cover, keys, screen, loose camera-cover, poor camera quality, slow menu-system and slow app startup of the N70. Those are some of the aspects where the K800 totally beats the N70. I just don’t like Symbian as much as you seem to do, that I don’t care one bit about all other aspects of the phone.
Anyway, since you’re turning this thread into a discussion about how much a J2ME device can do compared to a Symbian device, let’s just continue with that. That can be fun too. I wonder how long a post can be here at Esato…hehe.
K800 does not have APIs other than what supported java.
That is wrong mate. Besides standard Java API’s (MIDP2.0 and CLCD1.1) I count 9 additional API’s in the K800:
1-PDA Optional Packages for J2ME Platform (JSR 75)
2-Wireless Messaging 1.0 and 2.0 API's (JSR 120/205)
3-Mobile Media API (JSR 135)
4-Java Technology for the Wireless Industry (JSR 185)
5-Java API for Bluetooth (JSR 82)
6-Web Services (JSR 172)
7-Advanced Multimedia Supplements (JSR 234) (camera capabilities)
8-Mascot Capsule Micro3D Version 3
9-Mobile 3D Graphics API for Java ME (JSR 184)
To find out what these API’s can actually do, take a look at this link:
http://www.jcp.org/en/jsr/tech?listBy=1&listByType=platform
You must have read it as “applications” when I said “API”? An API = Application Programming Interface.
You can see that the API’s in the K800 gives developers a bunch of options, since they can access all kinds of stuff like PIM data, camera and Bluetooth etc. For example, with the Mobile Media API you can access the camera, and turn your phone into a geeky mouse. (http://www.pyrofersprojects.com/nokiamouse.php)
K800 may have advance Java support but it is nowhere near symbian. Like I say, nobody has develop any serious apps for K800 and I doubt there will be.
Well, we seem to disagree about what a “serious app” is. The ones you list below aren’t serious to me. They are mostly for fun and gag. But I suppose an app is “serious” when it’s something you need. I don’t need the functions to the extend those apps supply, though I do use some of the similar built-in functions of my W800.
1. Call Management. When I call or my phone rings, a dashboard (see below) is automatically shown and I can use number keys to select an operation like record conversation or reject with a sms, activate the phone answering machine or use smart-talk. It can be set to a default action if I dont do anything. It can also do auto-reject my black listed numbers.
Sony Ericsson phones doesn’t give me all those options, only the ones I need. When someone calls you, you select to pickup or to reject. When the call is going on you can record the conversation if you want, put on speaker, or even add another call to the conversation. The other options listed in the example I really can’t find useful. If you reject a call, it’s most likely because you’re busy, so there’s no time to write an sms either. I do that later in that case. But again, a matter of taste, and if you need it, you need it. But I really don’t.
2. Cell-based "gps" (dont need gps receiver or subscription). Knowing cell locations, phone can auto do stuff. E.g. when I pick up my sister from work, once I reach a certain point in the route the phone will auto-sms her telling her to be at pickup point. Or when I enter my home, phone will automatic change to "home" profile and deactivate my bluetooth and vice-versa if I leave my home.
It’s a funny idea, and probably useful to people travelling between several broadcasters (which I don’t). I’m pretty sure it’s possible with Java today also though. It’s merely a question of requesting which satellite / broadcaster the phone is using at the moment. And if it’s not possible with any of the API’s in the K800, then I’m sure it’ll come soon.
But something that I could consider being useful, is to use the phone as a Bluetooth “key” to turn on your computer. I think this has been developed also already.
3. Profile Management (add-on) - auto activate/reset profile based on calendar/time entries. Additionally can tie phone operations to profile change like switching theme, activate an application etc. I used this in conjunction with cell gps/calendar. E.g. set meeting entries in my calendar and phone auto activate "meeting" profile during meeting period. When I enter certain location,the phone auto switch profile and at the same time auto-switch the theme. So my phone UI always have a refreshing look.
Well, I suppose it could be nice to have one theme at work and another at home, but I fail to see how a small feature like this makes you love the Symbian OS. It’s certainly nothing that impresses me.
4. Voice notes: At any time I press a hot key and phone will start recording a voice memo. After that I can set the voice into the calendar just like any entries.
Also possible to code in J2ME, but not useful to me.
5. Advance music player supporting ogg format.
Well, J2ME can’t play OGG yet no. But since I’ve never left the mp3 format, this isn’t a sad thing to me. All my music is in mp3, and I’m more than happy with the built-in mp3 player in the W800 (and K800). I don’t want to start a debate about mp3 vs. ogg vs. wma etc etc.
Maybe I’m not a fulltime user of smart-phone capabilities. Apps such as a Converter, Messenger client, ICQ, Opera browser, World clock are things I rarely use, though I do have them installed in my W800.
I use the built-in browser quite a lot though, with bookmarks to opening-hours at the local market (mostly just to check if they are open on a sunday), online shopping list, ToDo list and Wishlist I can edit from my computer and view on the phone.
Lately I’ve been using a handy customisable calculator for some trigonometry calculations also, and the Nav4All application because I couldn’t find an address and wasn’t anywhere near a computer, and a simple RSS reader to check for new auctions on an eBay-like Danish site and uploads to Aminet. Other than that I’m playing a few games and looking at other gag-apps such as “Random Quotes”. Though I have a bunch of apps installed, like a very useful LyricTracker (connects to the internet and downloads lyrics of a certain song), I never really use them (even though I’m actually a musician).
Basically I only like Symbian because it gives me the possibility of emulating several nostalgic game-consoles such as MAME, Gameboy, NES, C64 and Amstrad CPC464 (“serious” apps to me, but most likely not to you). But all the other PDA-related stuff is available on Sony Ericsson phones today. Synchronization of contacts, calendar and tasks has been possible at least since my T68i. Heck, the T68i could even remotely control Winamp (even the Ericsson T39 could do this), and I used that quite a lot because my computer (in the office) was connected to the stereo in the living room.
It is my belief that with all the Java API’s continuingly emerging for J2ME (and MIDP3.0 is also being developed), it won’t be long before you can’t find a single thing J2ME can’t do compared to Symbian. Let’s wait and see if I’m right, and if I am, you’ll buy me a beer. We can pick it up in about a year. |
mib1800
Joined: Mar 18, 2004
Posts: > 500
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mr lou
I see you like the K800. I am not trying to change your mind. Most of us dont use the full capability of a phone. In fact using your reasoning there is no different between a K800 or 6230 or V3.
My point on the N70 symbian advantage is that in the event you need to have some additional functions which your current phone dont have, you have a chance to upgrade it with 3rd party software. And we know S60 softwares are available in thousands. With K800, the problem is that everything is vaporware at the moment.
You can dismiss those example of apps but I find it very useful. I am sure many people will find them useful too. Putting personal preferences aside, my general assertion that N70 beats K800 in everything except camera/battery life still holds true. This also holds true for out-of-box functionality.
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If you reject a call, it’s most likely because you’re busy, so there’s no time to write an sms either.
Actually, you can predefine canned smses to send. All is needed is 2 strokes of the keyboard to reject and send.
It’s a funny idea, and probably useful to people travelling between several broadcasters (which I don’t).
Maybe you are not sure how this works. Your cell phone will connect to different base-stations as you move about in the cellular network. I am pretty sure your phone will need to connect to many base stations unless of course you are stuck at one location all the time. The phone will collect info of these base-stations. Then you can define actions to be perform the next time the phone connects/disconnects from those base-station.
I’m pretty sure it’s possible with Java today also though. It’s merely a question of requesting which satellite / broadcaster the phone is using at the moment. And if it’s not possible with any of the API’s in the K800, then I’m sure it’ll come soon.
I am very sure this would never happen as this functionality requires pre-emptive OS. And we know K800 does not have this kind of OS.
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mr_lou
Joined: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 403
From: Denmark
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mib1800
My point on the N70 symbian advantage is that in the event you need to have some additional functions which your current phone dont have, you have a chance to upgrade it with 3rd party software. And we know S60 softwares are available in thousands. With K800, the problem is that everything is vaporware at the moment.
J2ME applications are also 3rd party software, and I disagree that everything is vapourware. They are just as “real” software as Symbian software, unless your definition of vapourware is different than mine. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware)
You can dismiss those example of apps but I find it very useful. I am sure many people will find them useful too. Putting personal preferences aside, my general assertion that N70 beats K800 in everything except camera/battery life still holds true. This also holds true for out-of-box functionality.
We can agree that we disagree.
Actually, you can predefine canned smses to send. All is needed is 2 strokes of the keyboard to reject and send.
Hm, well. Send predefined SMS’s when a specific person calls? That could actually come in handy. And I’m sure it can also be coded using J2ME along with additional API’s.
Maybe you are not sure how this works. Your cell phone will connect to different base-stations as you move about in the cellular network. I am pretty sure your phone will need to connect to many base stations unless of course you are stuck at one location all the time. The phone will collect info of these base-stations. Then you can define actions to be perform the next time the phone connects/disconnects from those base-station.
My point was exactly that I’m pretty much stuck at one location.
I am very sure this would never happen as this functionality requires pre-emptive OS. And we know K800 does not have this kind of OS.
Well, we’ll see. I’m sure there will be an API at some point that makes it possible to retrieve info about the base station (if there isn’t already), and then developers can make an application that sends sms or whatever when switched to a certain base station.
Keep in mind that J2ME applications can run in the background nowadays. |
pow1990
Joined: Aug 29, 2005
Posts: 277
From: Maidstone, Kent England
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i see a good old debate going down here
Ericsson->Alcatel->Nokia5110->Nokia3210->Nokia3310->Nokia3330->Nokia7210->Sony Ericsson k700i->Sony Ericsson k750i->Nokia N70->Nokia N80->Nokia N95 8GB-> iPhone 3G
paoloangeles.bebo.com |
mib1800
Joined: Mar 18, 2004
Posts: > 500
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mr_lou
They are just as “real” software as Symbian software
Java apps are real but very rudimentary compared to Symbian. Even now there is no camera/music player program using Java. On my N70, I have 3rd party camera/music apps which outperform the built-in ones. And for games, if you have played Symbian games then trust me, you would not want to touch Java games anymore.
Like a PC, N70 is "upgradable" ie. you can upgrade the functions with 3rd party apps. If you dont like how the built-in calendar/contact/camera work u have the option to replace them. Or add new functions or replace any functions which are outdated. Even a 3-4years old S60 phone like 6600 can have independent voice dialing (i.e. without the need to first record a sample sound) or have your SMSes read out to you once u receive them.
My point was exactly that I’m pretty much stuck at one location.
I'm really surprise to hear this. If I am not mistaken a cellular base station can serve an area of 200-500metres radius.
And I’m sure it can also be coded using J2ME along with additional API’s. ...Keep in mind that J2ME applications can run in the background nowadays.
Like I say it would not work because once you put Java in background that program is suspended. Even if you run such Java in foreground, it would not be feasible as the only way for Java to determine whether there is a change in base-station connection is to continuously check for it. This will suck all the battery out of the phone very fast.
So for any complex apps that integrates capability of phone/wireless/camera/UI/sound to be feasible u need an advance pre-emtive OS like Symbian with full native API support.
Without offence, the K800 is just like a programmable calculator and N70 is like a full-blown WinXP computer. In terms of (software) functional capability (except hardware related like camera sensor), the reality is that N70 outperforms K800 in everything.
Unless the camera is the ONLY deciding factor, imo N70 is a much better phone. And it is cheaper also. btw: N70 2MP camera do take very good picture. WIth the latest N70 firmware the speed has improve considerably. Of course not as fast as a normal phone but still very much usable.
[ This Message was edited by: mib1800 on 2006-08-15 06:15 ] |
Manuel_max
Joined: Apr 16, 2005
Posts: 386
From: 8 00 N, 66 00 W 912,050 sq km
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Go for k800!!!
regards........
--Sony Ericsson Evolution-- T610 > K700i > K800i > K750 >, k550i, w580i 1GB, W910i, k850i 4GB and C905 (MBW-150 Classic and Music) I  evolution |
mr_lou
Joined: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 403
From: Denmark
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mib1800
Java apps are real but very rudimentary compared to Symbian. Even now there is no camera/music player program using Java.
True that there's no camera/music player other that the built-in ones. I also doubt anyone can make software that makes better use of SE's camera. (With Nokia it's not such a big surprise that someone can make better apps than the supplied ones). Anyway, for those who really needs to be able to play OGG or another format, I'm sure it'll come soon. Personally I'd like to be able to play SID files on my phone, and I can see now that such a player is already being developed. Untill then, I don't have a problem converting my SID files into MP3 if I really want to listen to them on my phone, but so far I'll wait.
On my N70, I have 3rd party camera/music apps which outperform the built-in ones. And for games, if you have played Symbian games then trust me, you would not want to touch Java games anymore.
But I have played Symbian games, and they really don’t impress me that much. Name a few examples then. Perhaps I’ve just avoided the best games somehow.
Like a PC, N70 is "upgradable" ie. you can upgrade the functions with 3rd party apps. If you dont like how the built-in calendar/contact/camera work u have the option to replace them. Or add new functions or replace any functions which are outdated. Even a 3-4years old S60 phone like 6600 can have independent voice dialing (i.e. without the need to first record a sample sound) or have your SMSes read out to you once u receive them.
That is true. That is the advantage of a PDA / smartphone. If you need this advantage or not is another issue.
I'm really surprise to hear this. If I am not mistaken a cellular base station can serve an area of 200-500metres radius.
Really? I thought they ranged a bigger radius. Now you got me curious if I can do that with J2ME. I will investigate.
Like I say it would not work because once you put Java in background that program is suspended.
That is not true. Granted, some phones can’t run midlets in the background (I’m guessing Nokia phones), but Sony Ericsson phones can.
Even if you run such Java in foreground, it would not be feasible as the only way for Java to determine whether there is a change in base-station connection is to continuously check for it. This will suck all the battery out of the phone very fast.
Not true either. The following is a quite from the Sony Ericsson knowledge base:
“If you let a MIDlet continue to run in the background, you should take care to minimize any execution so that you do not unnecessarily execute code that drain battery. If you for example have an animation thread running and let it continue while the MIDlet's in the background, it can drain power rather quickly without doing much good for the user. On the other hand, if you for example would like to periodically check a network connection or similar, it's possible to implement a timer that fires an event at some suitable interval and causes processing only at those preferably short times of execution.
Normally the MIDlets are event driven and consume CPU cycles only when some event needs to be handled.”
That article applies to both MIDP 1.0 and MIDP 2.0 and T610, T616, T618, T628, T630, T637, Z600, Z608, Z1010, K500, K506, K508, K700, Z500, S700, V800, P800, P802, P900, P908 and P910.
Without offence, the K800 is just like a programmable calculator and N70 is like a full-blown WinXP computer. In terms of (software) functional capability (except hardware related like camera sensor), the reality is that N70 outperforms K800 in everything.
I’m trying to tell you, that that is not true anymore. It used to be true with Java phones yes, but as I initially said, Java isn’t as restricted as most people think anymore. I’m saying that, a Java phone today can do most the stuff a smart-phone can do.
From the start I have agreed with you that “Symbian OS” is better than “no Symbian OS”. But I’m not agreeing with you, and cannot agree with you, that the N70 beats the K800 just because it has Symbian.
Manuel_max
She's buying the K800 today. |
mib1800
Joined: Mar 18, 2004
Posts: > 500
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mr_lou
Symbian games, and they really don’t impress me that much. Name a few examples then
Well, have you try skyforce, cosmic fighters, doom, superminers, alphalt gt or some of the n-gage games?
If you need this advantage or not is another issue.
I think most people would want it if they knew about it. For me I like those that automate my daily routines such as the automatic switching of profile based on event/location. Of course, I also cannot do without my call management software which schedule/filter/record/reject my calls based on events or time period.
would like to periodically check a network connection or similar, it's possible to implement a timer that fires an event at some suitable interval
Even if it can run in the background or use timer, it still doesnt solve anything. Setting your timer too long defeats the purpose and setting it too short results in same problem of battery drain. Correct me if I'm wrong but currently in the K800 there is no way for phone kernel events/messages to filter thru to Java. And Java cannot cooperate or pre-empt or share memory with phone kernel processes.
I’m saying that, a Java phone today can do most the stuff a smart-phone can do.
Let me ask you a question. If Java is so powerful and fully implemented in SE phones, why do you think SE wants to pursue UIQ3/Symbian for its more advanced phones like M600/p990?
Furthermore, support for Java is so varied among manufacturers. K800 may have most extensive support for Java but software developers may just develop for the lowest denomination of Java so as to support as many phones as possible. So it is a chicken and egg problem.
but so far I'll wait.
Frankly, I think it will be a unending wait.
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J-J
Joined: May 10, 2004
Posts: 268
From: Nottingham, UK
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regardless of all the features of the N70, the fact it is so slow and the keypad is so un-user friendly renders it pretty useless to me.
I had mine for 3 months before selling it and getting a w800.
if you dont want something that is quick, smooth running and user friendly then go for the N70
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Posted: 2006-08-13 16:30
evolution
