| Author |
Michael Wolfe ('My Hajj Experience') |
joebmc
Joined: Jan 03, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Kent
PM |
Could the animals not be put to sleep, like what vets do, seemed very peaceful and painless when my dear old cat got put down. Or would this method containment the meat?
|
|
|
axxxr
Joined: Mar 21, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Londinium
PM, WWW
|
In an ideal world don't we all wish their was no suffering be it animal or human but we do all need to eat and meat is important,humans are not like sheep and cattle that we can survive chewing on grass and vegatables...like as with a lot of carnivorous animals meat is a staple diet ( try feeding your cat or dog some carrots).call it religious belief or evolution but we as humans do need to eat meat.
A lot of people are mentioning islam and muslims but no ones is mentioning jews who eat Kosher and sacrifice the animal exactly the same way as muslims.
Religious laws,Jewish and Islamic law forbid the animal be slaughtered any other way other than the methods described in the Torah and Quran.In an ideal world animals would be put to sleep as you described but unfortunately we dont live in such a world.
[addsig] |
joebmc
Joined: Jan 03, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Kent
PM |
Quote:
|
On 2006-01-31 17:50:28, axxxr wrote:
In an ideal world animals would be put to sleep as you described but unfortunately we dont live in such a world.
|
|
Well if this is the most painless way then surly it must be enforced, if your/there god wants animals killed in a painless way then surly this is it and normal halal way needs to be updated otherwise your going against gods will aren’t you?
_________________
Nokia 3210-->Nokia 3310-->Nokia 8210-->Panasonic GD67-->  T68m(i)-->T610-->k700i-->P800 -->Moto Razr v3 (black)-->Nokia 6030--> S700i
my ebay items
[ This Message was edited by: joebmc on 2006-01-31 17:03 ] |
dealer3
Joined: Apr 11, 2005
Posts: > 500
From: London
PM |
the laws of islam...if anyone was to follow them...totally...they would have a complete and peaceful life...everything we have been told is for a reason...God knows more than all the scientists in this world, for he created the scientists...the common sense/knowledge some of you have is not comparable to God...overall the way the meat is slaughtered at eaten...from begining to end is far more efficient in evvery way than any other method...
let me just say...im not talkin about 1 part of the production line... im talking about from the begining from choosing animal to the end...consuming...
this is the problem today...u cant look at one aspect and say...o this is wrong with that...this is wrong with this...u have to look at the whole process and you will see...economically, nutricienally every way u could possibly look at it u will see...
whether u use the method 1400 years ago or in the 21st century...God knows all...what has happened in the past and what is going to happen in the future...u will not get a more complete and perfect way of life...like it or not...
if you analyse looking at authentic unbias scientific facts, i can garuntee you wil not find a single contradiction in the Qur'aan or what islam teaches...however if u look at any other religion and any other method in anything...i garuntee one time or another you wil find a flaw...
you examine urself using unbias, authentic, scientific facts and you will see for youself
|
joebmc
Joined: Jan 03, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Kent
PM |
Quote:
|
On 2006-01-31 18:02:50, joebmc wrote:
Quote:
|
On 2006-01-31 17:50:28, axxxr wrote:
In an ideal world animals would be put to sleep as you described but unfortunately we dont live in such a world.
|
|
Well if this is the most painless way then surly it must be enforced, if your/there god wants animals killed in a painless way then surly this is it and normal halal way needs to be updated otherwise your going against gods will aren’t you?
_________________
Nokia 3210-->Nokia 3310-->Nokia 8210-->Panasonic GD67--> T68m(i)-->T610-->k700i-->P800 -->Moto Razr v3 (black)-->Nokia 6030--> S700i
my ebay items
[ This Message was edited by: joebmc on 2006-01-31 17:03 ]
|
|
Anyone got any answer on my question?
|
dealer3
Joined: Apr 11, 2005
Posts: > 500
From: London
PM |
islam is perfect...but muslims may not always be perfect
islam does not need mordernising...
islam does not need updating...
islam is the perfect way of life...whether you follow the law 2000 years ago or whther you follow the laws today in the 21st century or whether u follow the laws 2000 years from now...
god knows the past god knows the future...
it is because today in the 21st century people think they are clever, and think they know more than god....they change what they believe in and try something else...but those who are steadfast thos who are patient will always be successful over those who are not...thats garunteed
|
joebmc
Joined: Jan 03, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Kent
PM |
Umm… right…? So killing animals in a harmful way is ok because it was done this way 1500 years ago and was thought less hurtful then. Yet today as we’ve advanced medical and we know less harmful ways of killing but that doesn’t matter because it was presumed less harmful many moons ago?
Quote:
|
god knows the past god knows the future...
|
|
But he didnt know about dinosaurs  (just kidding)
_______
Nokia 3210-->Nokia 3310-->Nokia 8210-->Panasonic GD67--> T68m(i)-->T610-->k700i-->P800 -->Moto Razr v3 (black)-->Nokia 6030--> S700i
my ebay items
[ This Message was edited by: joebmc on 2006-01-31 17:29 ] |
amnesia
Joined: Jan 15, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Doha, London, Tokyo, Shanghai
PM, WWW
|
"halal way needs to be updated otherwise your going against gods will aren’t you? "
I'll answer that. The thing about the Quaraan is that it is unchanged and unmarked scripture, no Muslim (even the highest elder) can change the Quraan. We are not going against God's will because we are following the techniques God passed down. (I.e. killing the Halal way)
In relation to actually putting the animal to sleep. Think of it this way, it'll be expensive, which will raise prices, which will cause some people not to be able to afford the meat. So it seems your argument is with countries governments and not with religion.
|
joebmc
Joined: Jan 03, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Kent
PM |
@amnesia
Thanks.
So it is discribe in the Quran on how to kill livestock then?
|
max_wedge
Joined: Aug 29, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Australia
PM, WWW
|
Quote:
|
On 2006-01-30 21:22:00, dealer3 wrote:
max...some points u made are utterly wrong...
who said to have halal meat u have to cut in a muslim country...
as far as i remmeber england is not a muslim country...
halal meat is cut here...
as for the peole who are sayin its stupid to slaughter animals...erm...theses animals are not killed for fun...they are simply to eat...not to kill andleave on the side for nothing...
people need to get facts right before saying things...
and by the way...ill get u a SCIENTIFIC EXPLANATION of whhy slaughtering animals the halal way...is the best way for the animal and the consumer...verified by doctors and scientific research...by people who are more educated than some people will ever be...
|
|
The jury is out amongst scientists on whether it is in fact more humane or not. There is no scientific proof that they suffer less this way. I sure as shit know that whether I feel pain or not, I'd be scared stupid and suffer intense emotional trauma if my blood was spilling out in front of my eyes and I was losing control of my bodily functions. The view that halal method causes no suffering presupposes that the animal is not a conscious being - that it's consciousness is not capable of self awareness. Many animal studies show this to be demonstrably untrue. Animals are aware of death and their own mortality. It doesn't take much intelligence to understand mortality - when members of your pack die it's rather obvious that the same thing can happen to you.
Now here's why I think the halal ritual is outdated - the understanding that was held until fairly recently by most cultures and religions of the world, with regard to animals, was that they have no self-awareness and no significant emotional responses. But now this view has been largely discredited by SCIENTISTS conducting animal studies. So it leads me to think that the original intentions of halal, established by political leaders hundreds of years ago responsible for the health of their people, has over time become enshrined in rigid ritual and dogma.
I have utmost respect for all people's views, but I don't necessarily have to believe them myself. The practice of halal goes against my personal convictions about the treatment of animals. So I can't help but disagree with it. God didn't write the Koran, humans did. Those humans were very spiritual, but as you say dealer3, humans aren't perfect, and they don't always interpret the visions God gives them the way God intended.
Because of the imperfection of men, I can't believe that all scriptures perfectly represent the will of God. They are an approximation at best, to be used as guidance and not LAW. Law should be based on science, fact, and the common good It should not in my view be based on religious writings from hundreds of years ago.
If every religion adhered rigidly to every statement in their holy books, the world would continually be at war....oh yeah that's right it pretty much has been, hasn't it? Or rather, politcal leaders desirous of power have utilised fundamental religious belief to justify their empire building. Even George Bush does it - he thinks a world war would be a good thing due to his belief in the rapture....or is it just a handy justification for his politcal aims? In God We Trust?
Regarding the transportation of livestock to meet the demands of halal, it is the muslim countries who demand the stock arrive on their shores living. I have no idea why they won't allow it to be killed halal style in Australia. Infact I know for a fact that halal meat is prepared and sold in Australia, so I'm at a complete loss.
|
joebmc
Joined: Jan 03, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Kent
PM |
Another thing if these scripts are the “word” of god, and god can apparently see in the future then should he/she/it not of said “kill animals the halal way up until the 20th century when people will develop less painful ways of killing.” Or something like that?
|
london-uk
Joined: Oct 01, 2003
Posts: 214
From: Londres
PM |
Quote:
|
On 2006-02-01 13:57:25, max_wedge wrote:
...I sure as shit know that whether I feel pain or not, I'd be scared stupid and suffer intense emotional trauma if my blood was spilling out in front of my eyes and I was losing control of my bodily functions. The view that halal method causes no suffering presupposes that the animal is not a conscious being...
|
|
Max, I completely agree with you on this point.
As for axxxr, who replied to my previous post as follows:
"And your basically saying that a bullet through the head of the animal is not painfull for the creature?..from all the books ive read it says that death is painfull in all living creatures regardless of how quick it is..Maybe they do die in a milisecond or however long it takes for the creature to die,but i have read that animals which are slaughtered the Islamic or Jewish way suffer less aswell because the way the knife us used the blood drains away from the brain at a excellerated rate which in turn puts the animal into sleep and then death....somehow the idea of blowing the animals brains out with a automatic weapon does'nt seem like a painless and humane way to slaughter the creature."
First of all I was not campaigning against the slaughter of animals for food. I eat meat, and I completely recognise that animals have to be killed in order for meat to be available. I just don't agree with the unnecessary suffering of animals in the process. I was trying to put across the distaste to which I feel when encountering the practice of halal butchering. When you say "blowing the animals brains out with a [sic] automatic weapon", I really feel that you don't know what you are talking about. The animals to which I was previously referring were cattle. When killing a cow, a metal rod is fired directly into the front of its skull. Thus, the metal rod disrupts all activity in the brain within milliseconds (i.e. there is no longer consciousness). Death is virtually instantaneous.
An animal which is slaughtered by means of the halal method of butchery will in essence bleed to death (and even if you claim that the incision prevents pain, this is a cruel practice. You completely ignore the fact that a sentient being is being bled to death). This is a cruel practice, no matter how you qualify it.
[addsig] |
amnesia
Joined: Jan 15, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Doha, London, Tokyo, Shanghai
PM, WWW
|
@joe, yes they are mentioned in the Quraan how to kill livestock.
Here are a few verses.
http://www.angelfire.com/il2/islamicpage/halalhealthy/quranhadith
in relation to the quoted
"Another thing if these scripts are the “word” of god, and god can apparently see in the future then should he/she/it not of said “kill animals the halal way up until the 20th century when people will develop less painful ways of killing.” Or something like that? "
But as said, the way that you kill 'the Halal way' is the best way of harming an animal the least amount. Again, not all people can afford putting an animal to sleep, not all people would have this sleeping drug with them (lets say in a less developed area) and so on, so at the end of the day it's up to large corporations to aid in providing the sleeping drugs.
The world of God or any God for that matter, is never going to be too specific, actually it's more realistic.
I could simply say, study hard until there is a way to be smart without studying. Doesn't mean I foresaw the future, it simply means that I'm implying that the day might be possible.
So until then might as well try to not harm the animal as much as possible until the government or corporations stick their heads in and say, hey, lets give these people incentives for using sleeping pills.
|
JK
Joined: Feb 24, 2005
Posts: > 500
From: S. Africa - JOZI
PM |
I dont see anything wrong with cutting the animal, Iv cut a couple times and there wasnt much suffering from the animal as far as i could see, he kicked and stuff but in a couple of seconds it was all over...
I for some reason see it to be more inhumane by just shooting the thing with a metal rod!! WTF... maybe im just wierd... |
axxxr
Joined: Mar 21, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Londinium
PM, WWW
|
Yes exactly i agree,I just can't see shooting the animal in the brains is any less humane than cutting with a knife.
[addsig] |
|
|
Posted: 2006-01-31 14:36
