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Blair: 'God will be my judge on Iraq' |
PIANOSSO
Joined: May 18, 2004
Posts: 62
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I'm sorry for this would be a little off-topic. Most people reckon that God does not exist as nobody can proove it. It's an easy think to say. The same way, a beliver may reply: who prove that He doesn't exist? Now, to make my point... how can anybody proove that wind exist???
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scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
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From: UK
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On 2006-03-06 19:12:43, PIANOSSO wrote:
I'm sorry for this would be a little off-topic.
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The thread is already off-topic so one more isn't going to make much difference. 
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Most people reckon that God does not exist as nobody can proove it.
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I think most people probably do believe in a God, gods or some sort of higher power.
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Now, to make my point... how can anybody proove that wind exist???
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Fly a kite.
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC |
PIANOSSO
Joined: May 18, 2004
Posts: 62
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@scot You're straight right. Flying a kite helps observing the effect of wind. That's the proof. Flying a kite is actualy puting on trial the existance of wind. It really is the most correct thing to do BEFORE living in doubt or even denial.
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axxxr
Joined: Mar 21, 2003
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From: Londinium
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On 2006-03-06 18:38:04, scotsboyuk wrote:
That's a rather broad generalisation to make. You are are saying that all people in the West think that all Muslims are poverty stricken. Do you have any evidence for this? From what I can see most Westerners probably think that many Muslims are living in poverty or are very poor since many Muslim countries are poverty stricken, especially in Africa. However, that isn't to say that all Westerners think that all Muslims are living in poverty.
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Most people (majority) do actually do think that muslims are poverty stricken,im stateing a fact here from what i have seen and observed,im sure someone will back me up on this here aswell.
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More unsabstantiated generalisations. \"...generally quite a lot of muslims are very affluent.\" The simple fact of this last statement is that it is not true; generally many Muslims are far from affluent. If you look at where the majority of the world's Muslims reside they are living in countries, which are not very rich and which tend to concentrate their wealth in the hands of a relatively small number of people. This is also true for some of the richer Muslim nations.
I'm not sure exactly what your point about rich British Muslims is; I doubt whether many British people see the British Muslim community as being fantastically different in economic terms to the rest of the country.
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Again not true entirely,the focus is usually drawn towards the poverty in some of the poorer muslim nations...Although im not denieing that poverty is not a problem in those countries,far from it poverty is huge problem.
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On 2006-03-06 18:38:04, scotsboyuk wrote:
People keep saying this and I keeping thinking the same thing, so what? Why exactly is this being mentioned?
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So it means nothing that Islam is the fastest growing religion on the planet?..maybe it means something thats why so many are converting to it.
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On 2006-03-06 18:38:04, scotsboyuk wrote:
What are you basing this assertion on? The world's Christian population is more than 2 billion, which is larger than the world's Muslim population. On the face of it Christianity would appear to be the world's most practiced religion. However, what criteria are being used to decide who practices a particular religion? For all we know there could be more practicing Hindus than Christians.
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The christian population is indeed bigger i agree with you on that and but my christianity is not practiced as such was my point,you know and i know that church attendence is dieing out and the people have simply lost their faith,more churches are closeing down than ever before so how is christianity the most practiced religion?...on the other muslims may be the second largest faith yet the vast majority of muslims regularly practice their faith...Recently I have seen 5 churches closed down and converted into mosques which shows theirs more of a demand for muslim worshippers...so since Islam is the second largest faith in the world and majority of those are practicing muslims it makes Islam the most practiced religion on the planet...it can't be hindus or sikhs as they relatively small faiths,even if every single one them were practicing believers.
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On 2006-03-06 18:38:04, scotsboyuk wrote:
The United States is not anti-Islam and no matter how many times you repeat the mantra that it is, it won't be any truer (see how I worked a wee religious pun in there). Your own statement is paradoxical, if the U.S. were anti-Islamic it would hardly be allowing Islam to spread within its borders.
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I would say your wrong again,the U.S is anti-Islam,no matter how much you try and give it a sugar coated topping..I have American muslim friends who have told me this again and again,and believe me they know!..the U.S is allowing the religion to spread because it has no choice due to its laws and constitution,otherwise they would be doing what Hitler did and use the \"final solution\" im sure of that...the vast majority of non-muslim americans do not like or want Islam its as simple as that.
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On 2006-03-06 18:38:04, scotsboyuk wrote:
The extremists are the people making Islam look evil; the people who blow up innocent women and children in the name of Islam. These are people who deliberately set out to kill innocent people, irrespective of age, gender or religion. Thankfully most people realise that such actions are the work of extremists and that they are not representative of Islam, but their actions do serve to further increase fear and suffering.
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How is a few terrorists making Islam look evil,thats a very typical Islamphobic remark to make...So when the IRA were blowing up school children they were representing Christianity were they?...no one at that time said that christianity is an Evil faith did they?..Terrorists are Terrorists and are people who kill in the name of religion do so of their own accord and NOT representing Islam in anyway shape or form..Don't associate terrorism with Islam,they have no relation...in case you did'nt know So called Islamic terrorism is again down to the U.S...they have breeded these killers and now blame Islam and the whole muslim world for it...You a History Student are you not?...So you should know then most most muslim countries used to live in peace and have no such problems that we face today,its when the illegle state of Israel was created that Terrorism really got started...All america's fault again!
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On 2006-03-06 18:38:04, scotsboyuk wrote:
Clearly you seem to think that an increase in interest in Islam and/or the buying of Qurans constitutes some sort of victory over the U.S., presumably steming from your earlier assertion that the U.S. is 'anti-Islamic' (depsite the fact that it safeguards freedom of religion, does not prohibit Islamic worship and presumably facilitates the sale of a large number of Qurans).
Presumably people were buying the Quran because they wanted to find out about Islam. What exactly does that (and the growth rate of Islam) have to do with the subject of this thread?
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It isn't victory but it is a slap in the face of america who constantly try to put down Islam and make it look bad..America's safe guarding of religon does'nt mean anything,like i said ealier if they had the choice they would wipe it out entirely,laws and world opinion stops them from doing that...mark my words,if ever the day came where Islam became a dominant religion i gurantee you they would be a outright civil war in the U.S against muslims and non- muslims...I believe will see the day in our lifetime similer to what happened to the Jews in Nazi germany...maybe not the exact same scenario,but muslims will be persecuted and who knows what else.
The people who bought Qurans after 9/11 did of course buy them to find out more about the faith,because people mainly wanted to know if Islam encouraged violence and murder..and the ones who did convert realised that Islam made a lot of sense and is peace loving...and this has absolutely nothing to do with this thread but its just the nature of this debate,it very easily gets off topic!
Was'nt this thread about cherrie booth the lap dogs wife?
_________________
\"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly.\" WSC
[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2006-03-06 19:14 ]
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PeterKay
Joined: Jul 08, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: The Ummah
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On 2006-03-06 19:12:43, PIANOSSO wrote:
I'm sorry for this would be a little off-topic. Most people reckon that God does not exist as nobody can proove it.
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Verse 22-24 From The Holy Quran Explains More:
Allah is He, than Whom there is no other god;- Who knows all things both secret and open; He, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
Allah is He, than Whom there is no other god;- the Sovereign, the Holy One, the Source of Peace and Perfection, the Guardian of Faith, the Preserver of Safety, the Exalted in Might, the Irresistible, the Supreme: Glory to Allah. High is He above the partners they attribute to Him.
He is Allah, the Creator, the Evolver, the Bestower of Forms or Colours. To Him belong the Most Beautiful Names: whatever is in the heavens and on earth, doth declare His Praises and Glory: and He is the Exalted in Might, the Wise.
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joebmc
Joined: Jan 03, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Kent
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| they would be doing what Hitler did and use the \\"final solution\\" im sure of that...the vast majority of non-muslim americans do not like or want Islam its as simple as that. |
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Wouldn't the muslim countries be doing the same if they had christians/jews/hindu's setting up in there?
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axxxr
Joined: Mar 21, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Londinium
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On 2006-03-07 11:29:38, joebmc wrote:
Wouldn't the muslim countries be doing the same if they had christians/jews/hindu's setting up in there?
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Not mass murder no if thats whay your asking?..Although i know what you basically saying,restrictions are placed on christians/jews/hindu's in some muslim countries on them practicing their faiths.But thats the nature of the dominant religion in that country...But my point is entirely different,the muslim world is facing something very different today.
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joebmc
Joined: Jan 03, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Kent
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Oh no not mass murder (talking about muslims here not the US Gov  ).
Simple mean Muslims living in a muslim country would not like other religions spreading widly within it, like how americans not to happy about isalm speading their country.
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scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
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From: UK
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On 2006-03-06 23:33:56, axxxr wrote:
Most people (majority) do actually do think that muslims are poverty stricken,im stateing a fact here from what i have seen and observed,im sure someone will back me up on this here aswell.
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Have you seen and observed the majority of people? I would highly doubt that you have, hence you can't present your statement as 'fact', the best you can say is that you think that is the case. Unless someone actually goes around asking everyone the best we can do is say there is a trend or that we think something may be the case.
I think it is quite likely that many people think a lot of Muslims live in poverty since many Muslims happen to live in poor countries, but I would suggest that many people are not of the opinion that all of the world's Muslims are poverty stricken.
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Again not true entirely,the focus is usually drawn towards the poverty in some of the poorer muslim nations...Although im not denieing that poverty is not a problem in those countries,far from it poverty is huge problem.
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Of course the focus is drawn towards the poverty in poorer Muslim countries (or any poor country for that matter)! The whole aim of drawing attention to it is so that people are aware of it and do what they can to help alleviate that poverty.
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So it means nothing that Islam is the fastest growing religion on the planet?..maybe it means something thats why so many are converting to it. |
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Then tell us, what does it mean? Are you just informing us of this or are you making a point with it? If the latter then could you please explain what that point is?
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The christian population is indeed bigger i agree with you on that and but my christianity is not practiced as such was my point,you know and i know that church attendence is dieing out and the people have simply lost their faith,more churches are closeing down than ever before so how is christianity the most practiced religion?...on the other muslims may be the second largest faith yet the vast majority of muslims regularly practice their faith...Recently I have seen 5 churches closed down and converted into mosques which shows theirs more of a demand for muslim worshippers...so since Islam is the second largest faith in the world and majority of those are practicing muslims it makes Islam the most practiced religion on the planet...it can't be hindus or sikhs as they relatively small faiths,even if every single one them were practicing believers.
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Have you counted the number of practicing Christians? Have you counted the number of practicing Muslims? What criteria are you using to judge who is a practitioner and who is not? Is a practitioner someone who goes to the mosque or church or someone who is a devout beliver but doesn't?
You are doing the same thing as before, presenting your own opinion as fact. It may be your own opinion that Islam is the most practiced religion, but unless you have evidence to prove it that is all it shall be, your opinion.
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I would say your wrong again,the U.S is anti-Islam,no matter how much you try and give it a sugar coated topping..I have American muslim friends who have told me this again and again,and believe me they know!..the U.S is allowing the religion to spread because it has no choice due to its laws and constitution,otherwise they would be doing what Hitler did and use the "final solution" im sure of that...the vast majority of non-muslim americans do not like or want Islam its as simple as that.
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There is so much wrong with that last statement that it is difficult to imagine that it was written seriously.
First of all you will note that I did not try to 'sugar coat' the U.S., I merely disagreed with you.
Secondly you once again contradict yourself. If the U.S. were anti-Islamic and the majority of non-muslim Americans did not like or want Islam then it would seem to me perfectly logical that they would change the laws that allow freedom of religion in America so that Islam was not permitted to be practiced there, at the very least there would be serious calls for such action even if it were not implemented. Neither has happened. Essentially what you are doing here is propogating a certain worldview irrespective of reality; in other words you have formed an opinion and are holding to that opinion no matter what the facts are, even to the extent of self-contradiction.
I won't say much regarding your last point because quite frankly I find it to be in the most apalling of taste. It is one thing to dislike the U.S., but to reinforce your own narrow minded opinion with the Holocaust is really rather disgusting.
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How is a few terrorists making Islam look evil,thats a very typical Islamphobic remark to make...
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Do you actually read what people write before leaping to the keyboard? Please read my statement again and you will see that I quantify my remarks.
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So when the IRA were blowing up school children they were representing Christianity were they?...no one at that time said that christianity is an Evil faith did they?..
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Again I would ask you to read my comment again and you will see that your self-righteous analogies are wasted here.
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Terrorists are Terrorists and are people who kill in the name of religion do so of their own accord and NOT representing Islam in anyway shape or form..Don't associate terrorism with Islam,they have no relation...
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To think that a few moments spent reading what I had written properly instead of just ingesting the first couple of lines could have saved you from typing this and us from reading it ...
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in case you did'nt know So called Islamic terrorism is again down to the U.S...they have breeded these killers and now blame Islam and the whole muslim world for it...You a History Student are you not?...So you should know then most most muslim countries used to live in peace and have no such problems that we face today,its when the illegle state of Israel was created that Terrorism really got started...All america's fault again!
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The U.S. funded groups of Islamic warriors during the Cold War in an effort to fight the Soviet Union, principaly in Afghanistan. It was after the Cold War that we saw these groups increasingly attack Western targets. In that sense the U.S. did help to foster these groups. However, your assertion that the U.S. is trying to blame Islam is blatantly false, in fact the U.S. government has differentiated between Islamic extremists who perpetuate terrorism and Islam in general. The U.S. government has shown no sign of blaming Islam in general for terrorism, if you can point out where they have then please do so.
How are you defining your assertion of Muslim countries living in peace? Do you mean Muslim countries not going to war against non-Muslim countries or against other Muslim countries and in which time period? Whatever your criteria it is apparent that Muslim states have engaged in wars throughout history, both with Muslim and non-Muslim states. If you take a look at this list of historical wars you will see a number of them involving Islamic states.
It is worth pointing out that many Islamic states may not have been engaged in conflict during the late 19th and early 20th centuries because they were ruled by European powers.
The current violence seen from Islamic extremists is not solely attributable to the creation of the Israeli state and would arguably still exist whether Israel existed or not.
Wahhabism, for example, was created in the 17th century and espouses living one's life in accordance with how the Prophet Muhhamad would have lived. This led Wahhabists to reject various things from the time after the Prophet Mohammed e.g. television, marked graves, etc. Muslims who violated the strict tenents of Wahhabism were considered heretics and this led to violence against other Muslims. Similarly the Islamic Jihad movement, which was responsible for the shooting of Anwar Sadat has targeted Muslim leaders they feel are apostate e.g. secular leaders who embraced Western ideas.
Muhammad Abd al-Salaam Farag outlined such a vision when he said:
"...there is no doubt that the first battlefield for jihad is the extermination of these infidel leaders and to replace them by a complete Islamic Order..."
Hence one can see that as much as extreme groups do target the West and Israel, that isn't the whole story. Of as much importance is the nature of Islamic states and if they are not to the liking of the extremists then they are targeted as well. Indeed al Qaeda has criticised the governments of Islamic nations in the past, indicating that their war is not simply because of the U.S. or Israel, but also as a result of Islamic nations not following what they believe to be the correct Islamic way of life.
If you look to extremist Islamic terrorism you will see that it started becoming a major movement in the 1980's. Prior to this various Arab nations had tried to defeat Israel through conventional attacks, all of which failed. The 1967 Six Day War was a crushing defeat for the Egyptian-Jordanian-Syrian alliance and left them militarily humiliated. The 1973 Yom Kippur War allowed Egypt and Syria to regain some of their national pride in that they fared better although they could still not defeat Israel. After this time we see a gradual thawing of relations between Israel and some Arab nations. Those still opposed to Israel had to use different tactics to fight Israel, which we now see.
Where the U.S. comes into the equation is its support for Israel. Those who are opposed to Israel are obviously opposed to those who provide aid to Israel and this largely means the U.S. It is interesting to note that EU countries have been attacked by Islamic extremists despite the fact that the E.U. is the largest donor towards the Palestinian Authority and hasn't offered the same level of support to Israel that the U.S. has.
What we have then is a situation in which extreme Islamic groups are oppsoed to aspects of Islamic nations that they don't agree with in addition to Israel or the U.S. Their violent methods stem from their extreme view of the world, they are not interested in compromise, only on enforcing their own views. Even if you remove Israel and the U.S. from the situation, groups such as al Qaeda would still exist as they are opposed to the governments of various Islamic nations..
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It isn't victory but it is a slap in the face of america who constantly try to put down Islam and make it look bad..
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Again I have to ask you to provide proof of this; can you point out how the American government is trying to make Islam look bad? How has it done this? How has America tried to put Islam down? Who instituted this alleged policy?
Incidentally an interest in religion is hardly a 'slap in the face' for a country which sfaeguards freedom of religion.
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America's safe guarding of religon does'nt mean anything,like i said ealier if they had the choice they would wipe it out entirely,laws and world opinion stops them from doing that...
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Let me get this straight, you are basically saying that America is inherently anti-Islamic and would ban Islam if it could, but that it is prevented from doing so by laws that that it put inplace? Do you have evidence for your view? Is there a major movement in America calling for Islam to be banned? Is there talk of it on the streets and in the corridors of power?
World opinion didn't stop the U.S. from invading Iraq and it didn't stop the U.S. from withdrawing from the Kyoto Treaty. World opinion has also not stopped the U.S. from holding people at Guantanamo. It would seem to me that where the U.S. really wants to do something it does it, irrespective of world opinion. Granted that banning Islam would be a major step and likely to cause serious diplomatic furore, I would still say that if the U.S. really hated Muslims then we would have seen at least some sort of punitive measures against Muslims in America. The fact of the matter is that we have not.
I think what we have here is another example of your worldview dominating reality and causing you to see things, which don't actually exist. So intent on blaming the world's ills on America you appear to be demonising America to the extent that you are no better than those who blame Islam for the actions of extremists.
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mark my words,if ever the day came where Islam became a dominant religion i gurantee you they would be a outright civil war in the U.S against muslims and non- muslims...I believe will see the day in our lifetime similer to what happened to the Jews in Nazi germany...maybe not the exact same scenario,but muslims will be persecuted and who knows what else.
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You increasingly sound paranoid, and dare I say it, delusional. Why should Islam becoming the dominant religion cause civil war in America? America's laws safeguard religious freedom for everyone; at the moment the majority of Americans are Christian and we do not see a civil religious war, why should that be different if Islam was the dominant religion? Islam has a history of tolerance of other faiths, including Judaism. If Islam became the dominant religion in the U.S. it would be unlikely to happen overnight, rather it would probably occur over a period of several decades, perhaps even centuries. If the American people converted to Islam in significant numbers over such a time period I don't see that causing a civil war, rather I see there being a natural progression, just as there is in other areas of society.
_________________
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC
[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2006-10-07 07:02 ] |
axxxr
Joined: Mar 21, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: Londinium
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On 2006-03-07 21:08:42, scotsboyuk wrote:
Have you seen and observed the majority of people? I would highly doubt that you have, hence you can't present your statement as 'fact', the best you can say is that you think that is the case. Unless someone actually goes around asking everyone the best we can do is say there is a trend or that we think something may be the case.
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Its a fact you know that and i know that,lets not try and pretend shall we!
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On 2006-03-07 21:08:42, scotsboyuk wrote:
I think it is quite likely that many people think a lot of Muslims live in poverty since many Muslims happen to live in poor countries, but I would suggest that many people are not of the opinion that all of the world's Muslims are poverty stricken.
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Well that what i was point ealier that majority of people in the west are of this opinion.
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On 2006-03-07 21:08:42, scotsboyuk wrote:
Of course the focus is drawn towards the poverty in poorer Muslim countries (or any poor country for that matter)! The whole aim of drawing attention to it is so that people are aware of it and do what they can to help alleviate that poverty.
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Again my point was that too much emphasis is drawn towards the poverty,rather than the positives.
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On 2006-03-07 21:08:42, scotsboyuk wrote:
Have you counted the number of practicing Christians? Have you counted the number of practicing Muslims? What criteria are you using to judge who is a practitioner and who is not? Is a practitioner someone who goes to the mosque or church or someone who is a devout beliver but doesn't?
You are doing the same thing as before, presenting your own opinion as fact. It may be your own opinion that Islam is the most practiced religion, but unless you have evidence to prove it that is all it shall be, your opinion.
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I think its quite obvious between christians and muslims to see who practices their faith more...your deviating from my original point that made.Belief is one thing and practice quite another,you dont need me to explain that one to you..We simply talking about practicing the faith!..in the end religion stands for nothing if you don't practice it...I could say im into Taoism or whatever but if i dont practice it that stands for nothing.
Again i don't need to provide evidence that Islam is more widely practiced that christianity,..Its common knowledge i think,again just look at church attendence figures and Mosque attendence..you will find massive difference.
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On 2006-03-07 21:08:42, scotsboyuk wrote:
There is so much wrong with that last statement that it is difficult to imagine that it was written seriously.
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Thats your opinion but it don't mean that your right!
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On 2006-03-07 21:08:42, scotsboyuk wrote
First of all you will note that I did not try to 'sugar coat' the U.S., I merely disagreed with you.
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Your opinon is always that U.S are somehow the good guys and leaders of the free world and all that rubbish!....disagreeing is one thing but not seeing that most problems are american made is beyond me.
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On 2006-03-07 21:08:42, scotsboyuk wrote:
Secondly you once again contradict yourself. If the U.S. were anti-Islamic and the majority of non-muslim Americans did not like or want Islam then it would seem to me perfectly logical that they would change the laws that allow freedom of religion in America so that Islam was not permitted to be practiced there, at the very least there would be serious calls for such action even if it were not implemented. Neither has happened. Essentially what you are doing here is propogating a certain worldview irrespective of reality; in other words you have formed an opinion and are holding to that opinion no matter what the facts are, even to the extent of self-contradiction.
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Again i will have to say to you that most Americans are Anti-Islam...at the moment because islam is a minority religion its allowed to carry on alongside other faiths,but i think the hardcore christian fundamentalists that run and fund the current U.S andministration may have other ideas...time will reveal what my point is....Their are no other facts to consider,some like to live in denial of a problem and some choose to accept it like me.
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On 2006-03-07 21:08:42, scotsboyuk wrote:
I won't say much regarding your last point because quite frankly I find it to be in the most apalling of taste. It is one thing to dislike the U.S., but to reinforce your own narrow minded opinion with the Holocaust is really rather disgusting.
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The Truth is not often to everyones taste,but thats the nature of reality...Try and understand my point before calling me narrow minded,..i could also say the same about your opinons but i choose not to go their..My association with Holocaust was because of what muslims are facing today,..If we are to learn from history and that is keeping quite about problems which later on become uncontrolable isn't the best way..the U.S is directly responsible for murdering 100'000 of muslims in various parts of the world..and if thats not persecution then what is?
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On 2006-03-07 21:08:42, scotsboyuk wrote:
Again I would ask you to read my comment again and you will see that your self-righteous analogies are wasted here.
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Once again your inncorrect opinion!
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On 2006-03-07 21:08:42, scotsboyuk wrote:
To think that a few moments spent reading what I had written properly instead of just ingesting the first couple of lines could have saved you from typing this and us from reading it ...
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I could say that same for you....you seem to go over and over the same argument or take away from what was actually said.
You historical account was quite interesting and very facinating but it did'nt address my original argument that america breeds terrorism,which it does!
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On 2006-03-07 21:08:42, scotsboyuk wrote:
Incidentally an interest in religion is hardly a 'slap in the face' for a country which sfaeguards freedom of religion.
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Safeguards religon only for non-muslims,ask the many muslims who have the mosques fire bombed or mosques who are constantly watched by FBI agents or campaigns by christian fundamentalists to have mosques shut down..hardly safeguarding is it.
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On 2006-03-07 21:08:42, scotsboyuk wrote:
Let me get this straight, you are basically saying that America is inherently anti-Islamic and would ban Islam if it could, but that it is prevented from doing so by laws that that it put inplace? Do you have evidence for your view? Is there a major movement in America calling for Islam to be banned? Is there talk of it on the streets and in the corridors of power?
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Yes i am saying that America is inherently anti-islamic and yes they would ban it if they could..Their are fundamentalist christiantian movements active in america who would like to see islam banned yes!...maybe their is talk of it at govt level im not sure...but the people who who are behind Bush & Co are these people who push for war such as in the Iraq case.
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On 2006-03-07 21:08:42, scotsboyuk wrote:
World opinion didn't stop the U.S. from invading Iraq and it didn't stop the U.S. from withdrawing from the Kyoto Treaty. World opinion has also not stopped the U.S. from holding people at Guantanamo. It would seem to me that where the U.S. really wants to do something it does it, irrespective of world opinion. Granted that banning Islam would be a major step and likely to cause serious diplomatic furore, I would still say that if the U.S. really hated Muslims then we would have seen at least some sort of punitive measures against Muslims in America. The fact of the matter is that we have not.
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These points which you have made are completely irrelevant,Religion is a different issue and like you mention banning Islam would be no small step..I believe in time the U.S will take some measure against the spread and practice of islam i really believe that!
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On 2006-03-07 21:08:42, scotsboyuk wrote:
I think what we have here is another example of your worldview dominating relaity and causing you to see things, which don't actually exist. So intent on blaming the world's ills on America you appear to be demonising America to the extent that you are no better than those who blame Islam for the actions of extremists.
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Maybe in your skewed reality obscured by america they don't exsist..Im not intent in blaming the worlds problems on the U.S...im telling you and i know it to be so!..The U.S is the problem,....from Wars to Global Warming i rest my case!
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On 2006-03-07 21:08:42, scotsboyuk wrote:
You increasingly sound paranoid, and dare I say it, delusional. Why should Islam becoming the dominant religion cause civil war in America?
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I will ask you to refrain from calling me Paranoid and Dilusional,you could either have a sensible debate or we could have a round of petty name calling...just because you don't agree with me does'nt me that you have any right to say that.
In fact your dislusional for not seeing where the problems are in this,..try and understand my point before flying off the handle ok...again do you really think the people who run america would allow Islam to flourish,.i think any sane person would know the answer to that one...Civil war would spread between Christians and Muslims over control of power.
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On 2006-03-07 21:08:42, scotsboyuk wrote:
America's laws safeguard religious freedom for everyone; at the moment the majority of Americans are Christian and we do not see a civil religious war, why should that be different if Islam was the dominant religion? Islam has a history of tolerance of other faiths, including Judaism. If Islam became the dominant religion in the U.S. it would be unlikely to happen overnight, rather it would probably occur over a period of several decades, perhaps even centuries. If the American people converted to Islam in significant numbers over such a time period I don't see that causing a civil war, rather I see there being a natural progression, just as there is in other areas of society.
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Well maybe that might happened who's to know for sure,but in an ideal world we could all live in harmony but that will never happen we both know this.
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amnesia
Joined: Jan 15, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Doha, London, Tokyo, Shanghai
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@joe, In Islam, other religions are respected and do exist quite harmoniously (might be spelled incorrectly), it's only when another religion tries to take over a region or control it that it's rejected.
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JK
Joined: Feb 24, 2005
Posts: > 500
From: S. Africa - JOZI
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Scotts you watching to much CNN!!
How many poor muslim countries are there in Africa? |
scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: UK
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On 2006-03-08 00:44:59, axxxr wrote:
Its a fact you know that and i know that,lets not try and pretend shall we!
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Apparently you have no argument here as you have taken to simply repeating your assertion without evidence. Again I shall ask you to provide proof, if it is a fact then you should be able to do that.
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Well that what i was point ealier that majority of people in the west are of this opinion.
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Your earlier point was a broad generalisation of Westerners.
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Again my point was that too much emphasis is drawn towards the poverty,rather than the positives.
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Quite probably because the poverty in many of these countries is so apalling that it dominates the nation. I wonder what poverty stricken Sudanese would want shown on Western televisions creens; Sudanese people desperately in need of aid or someone taking a drink from a newly installed well? The positives in such countries are reported, indeed they should be, but the extent of the problems faced there means that attention has to predominantly focus on them in order to convey just how serious the situation is.
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I think its quite obvious between christians and muslims to see who practices their faith more...your deviating from my original point that made.Belief is one thing and practice quite another,you dont need me to explain that one to you..We simply talking about practicing the faith!..in the end religion stands for nothing if you don't practice it...I could say im into Taoism or whatever but if i dont practice it that stands for nothing.
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You seem to like drawing attention to the fact that your comments are obvious or simple ... simplistic would be a more apt term I think. How is it obvious who practices their faith more? You have yet to inform me of the criteria you are using to decide what constitutes a practitioner and how you have been able to apply this criteria to all Muslims and all Christians in order to arrive at your conclusion.
How are belief and practice two different things? Is someone more Christian if they attend Church regularly or live a Christian lifestyle, but do not attend Church? Which of those is to be considered a 'practicing Christian'? It seems to me that belief and practice go hand in hand; if someone believes in a particular faith strongly then they tend to live their life according to that faith.
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Again i don't need to provide evidence that Islam is more widely practiced that christianity,..
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... probably because you don't have any.
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Its common knowledge i think,again just look at church attendence figures and Mosque attendence..you will find massive difference.
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Look at church attendance and mosque attendance where? America? Britain? Saudi Arabia? Poland? Australia? Presumably you are aware of the Church and Mosque attendance figures for everywhere on the planet (such information being 'common knowledge' of course) and thus you are able to arrive at your 'informed' conclusion.
What exactly do attendance figures tell us about people's individual beliefs or how they practice their faith in everyday life? Does such information let us know if people attending church or the mosque are merely paying lip service to their faith and not actually practicing their religion outside of that setting?
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Thats your opinion but it don't mean that your right!
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Mercifully it also does not preclude the overwhelming possibility that you are wrong.
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Your opinon is always that U.S are somehow the good guys and leaders of the free world and all that rubbish!
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Gosh aren't I lucky to have someone here who knows my opinion better than I do?! If you would care to read through my past posts on this forum, and others, you would see that I criticise the U.S. where I feel it is wrong and defend it where I feel it is right. This is called taking an objective viewpoint, something you clearly aren't familiar with.
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....disagreeing is one thing but not seeing that most problems are american made is beyond me.
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I would like to rephrase your statement if I may, it should read:
"Seeing disagreement as anything but an attack on my views and a challenge to my narrow minded vision of the world is beyond me."
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Again i will have to say to you that most Americans are Anti-Islam...
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... and again I shall have to ask you to provide proof of your claims. As before, if this is a fact then it should not be too difficult to provide such proof, of course if it is one of your 'facts' ...
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... at the moment because islam is a minority religion its allowed to carry on alongside other faiths,
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Islam is allowed to spread and be practiced freely in the U.S. because the U.S. has freedom of religion. Of course I appreciate that this is incredibly difficult for you to accept because it doesn't involve a conspiracy theory, bashing the U.S. or claiming someone is being victimised.
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... but i think the hardcore christian fundamentalists that run and fund the current U.S andministration may have other ideas...
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The current Administration has shown no signs of ending America's religious freedom. Can you provide us with evidence to show how you arrived at your opinion?
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... time will reveal what my point is....
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There is a device called the electron microscope, so powerful that it can actually be used to see into the atomic world, the very atoms that make up the universe. Even if we were to use that microscope we still couldn't reveal what your point is.
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Their are no other facts to consider,some like to live in denial of a problem and some choose to accept it like me.
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Ah the battle worn call of someone without an argument who's cherished view of the world is being challenged.
To list a few factors to consider:
The role of the non-fundamentalist right
The role of the American left and centre
The role Muslim voters would play in elections
The possibility of overturning/modifying the First Amendment
The pretext for such discrimination
The possibility of a backlash against such a measure
The possibility that this is a half-brained conspiracy theory thought up by someone incapable of seeing the world except through rabid anti-American paranoia
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The Truth is not often to everyones taste,but thats the nature of reality...
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I wonder if anyone can guess which two words in that sentence I am surprised to see being used.
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Try and understand my point before calling me narrow minded,..i could also say the same about your opinons but i choose not to go their..
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It is inherently difficult to understand paranoid ravings that have no basis in reality.
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My association with Holocaust was because of what muslims are facing today,..If we are to learn from history and that is keeping quite about problems which later on become uncontrolable isn't the best way..the U.S is directly responsible for murdering 100'000 of muslims in various parts of the world..and if thats not persecution then what is?
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Muslims today are facing nothing like the Holocaust and to suggest otherwise is not only an apalling misuse of history, but also utterly rediculous and contemptible. You clearly have no respect for anything beyond your own twisted and hate filled views; so desperate are you to vindicate your delusions that you have to resort to extremes such as this. If I were a Muslim I would be utterly embaressed and angered to have someone like you purport to speak for me.
The U.S. is responsible for many deaths over the years as are many other countries, including Muslim countries. You simply choose to see what you wish.
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Once again your inncorrect opinion!
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Again can we have proof of your assertions. Surely you are able to show how my opinion is incorrect with the proof that you believe makes your own correct?
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I could say that same for you....you seem to go over and over the same argument or take away from what was actually said.
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Translation: You pick me up on points I do not have a satisfactory answer to other than to repeat my unfounded claims.
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You historical account was quite interesting and very facinating but it did'nt address my original argument that america breeds terrorism,which it does!
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Did you actually read it or did you just type that because you couldn't think of a better rebuttal other than to bash America?
If you read over what I wrote you can see that explains that 'terrorism' is not purely the result of America (or Israel for that matter), but has its roots in multiple factors. These factors do include America and Israel, but also intolerance of non-extremists by extremists and a desire to change Islamic society to suit their own views.
You keep making these simplistic statements yet offer nothing in the way of evidence, data or sources to backup your views. Are you able to do so? If not could you please just say so.
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Safeguards religon only for non-muslims,ask the many muslims who have the mosques fire bombed or mosques who are constantly watched by FBI agents or campaigns by christian fundamentalists to have mosques shut down..hardly safeguarding is it.
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How many mosques have been firebombed? How many of those were firebombed by the U.S. government? How many mosques are being watche dby the F.B.I.? How many of those are being watched without proper reason? How many of those Christian fundamentalists are protesting with official government support? Which policies has the U.S. government enacted to motivate people to protest against Muslims?
People are intolerant all over the world, that isn't to say they are reflective of the whole of society. It's hypocritical that you should be using the actions of a minority in America to attack America as a whole when you accuse people of doing the same thing with Islam.
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Yes i am saying that America is inherently anti-islamic and yes they would ban it if they could..Their are fundamentalist christiantian movements active in america who would like to see islam banned yes!...maybe their is talk of it at govt level im not sure...but the people who who are behind Bush & Co are these people who push for war such as in the Iraq case.
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You are either remarkably uninformed or deliberately misrepresenting the facts (or perhaps both). How much of the American population do these American fundamentalists, who are calling for Islam to be banned, make up? It seems to me that they are most definitely in the minority, which once again labels you as a hypocrite for condemining an entire people based upon the actions of a few.
You don't know if there is talk of banning Islam at government level yet you are willing to label America inherently anti-Islamic? What exactly is it that you are going on here?
The people who support President Bush come from all walks of life, some are very right-wing other are less so. Some are black, some are white. They're not all Christians and they are not all fundamentalists. What you are doing is stereotyping, presumably because it is easier to believe that anyone you don't agree with must take an extreme position and couldn't possibly be just a normal person.
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These points which you have made are completely irrelevant, Religion is a different issue and like you mention banning Islam would be no small step..I believe in time the U.S will take some measure against the spread and practice of islam i really believe that!
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As I said previously, the U.S. is not prone to buckling to world opinion when it is determined to do something and 9/11 would have been a good opportunity for anyone who wished to take punitive measures against Islam. The majority of world opinion was decidedly pro-American at the time and people in America were scared. Such fear could have been played upon to demonise Islam. The fact of the matter is that this did not happen. Instead we have seen the American government differntiate between Islam and the terrorism of extremists, hardly the actions of people who hate Islam and wish to cast it in a bad light.
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Maybe in your skewed reality obscured by america they don't exsist..Im not intent in blaming the worlds problems on the U.S...im telling you and i know it to be so!..The U.S is the problem,....from Wars to Global Warming ...
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You're telling me and you know it to be so? Where is your proof? Where is your evidence? You keep on giving us your opinion and informing us of how what you say is fact, but we see little to no evidence.
Your instinctive reaction is to blame something that goes wrong on America, you appear to have little ability (if any) to grasp an objective viewpoint or see the world in anything but your own narrow terms. You consistently fall back on the same tired arguments when pressed and are either unwilling or unable to support such arguments with substantive proof.
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If only!
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I will ask you to refrain from calling me Paranoid and Dilusional,you could either have a sensible debate or we could have a round of petty name calling...just because you don't agree with me does'nt me that you have any right to say that.
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Well I have said it consitently throughout this thread and I shall say it again; you sound paranoid and delusional. That isn't name calling, it's my opinion based upon your posts.
A definition of 'paranoia':
1. A psychotic disorder characterized by delusions of persecution with or without grandeur, often strenuously defended with apparent logic and reason.
2. Extreme, irrational distrust of others.
Admittedly the first definition isn't entirely appropriate since you havn't defended your views with anything approaching logic or reason.
A defintion of 'delusion':
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a. The act or process of deluding.
b. The state of being deluded.
2. A false belief or opinion: labored under the delusion that success was at hand.
3. Psychiatry A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence, especially as a symptom of mental illness: delusions of persecution.
I think any half sane person reading your posts in this thread, let alone others, can see that you display an adherence to views that do not stand up under the weight of scrutiny or informed debate and which cannot be supported by any substantial amount of evidence and which you cling to despite there being evidence to the contrary.
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In fact your dislusional for not seeing where the problems are in this,..
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More hypocrisy:
"I will ask you to refrain from calling me Paranoid and Dilusional,you could either have a sensible debate or we could have a round of petty name calling"
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... try and understand my point before flying off the handle ok...
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As I have said before I find it difficult to understand your views because they aren't actually based in anything other than conspiracy theories and and a seemingly rampant aversion to reality. Incidentally I don't believe I 'flew off the handle', rather I merely informed you that I believed you were becoming more paranoid and delusional, a claim that I have set out above.
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... again do you really think the people who run america would allow Islam to flourish,. i think any sane person would know the answer to that one...
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Yes I do and it does. You yourself said:
"U.S is where Islam is spreading the fastest"
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Civil war would spread between Christians and Muslims over control of power.
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What is your basis for this claim? What is the scenario you are using? How would such a conflict develop?
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Well maybe that might happened who's to know for sure,but in an ideal world we could all live in harmony but that will never happen we both know this.
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I didn't mention anything about 'living in harmony', just a natural progression. I'm quite sure that there would be problems along the way, but I don't think they would lead to civil war.
_________________
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC
[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2006-03-09 02:18 ] |
scotsboyuk
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
Posts: > 500
From: UK
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On 2006-03-08 07:45:54, 786KBR wrote:
Scotts you watching to much CNN!!
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I very rarely watch CNN, I prefer the BBC.
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How many poor muslim countries are there in Africa?
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The following is a list of poor African nations where the majority of the population is Muslim:
Burkina Faso
Chad
Djibouti
Ethiopia
Guinea
Mali
Mauritania
Senegal
Sierra Leone
Somalia
Sudan
It is prudent to point out that a number of poor African nations, whilst not having a Muslim majority, have sizeable Muslim populations, which account for more than 10% of the total population e.g. Tanzania.
So to answer your question; it depends upon one's definition of a Muslim state. Certainly there are a number of nations, which have Islam as the dominant religion, but there are also a number of nations, which have large Muslim populations that aren't in an overall majority, but which some may consider to be a Muslim country.
If you have a look at this map of members of the Organisation of the Islamic Conference you will see countries included that I have not mentioned here. Some of those nations are also poor.
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC |
amnesia
Joined: Jan 15, 2004
Posts: > 500
From: Doha, London, Tokyo, Shanghai
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it's in my opinion that many Christian messengers (Witnesses and so on) go to African country to spread faith to those who need it.
Joining a religion doesn't make you wealthy and isn't a cause for poverty. It's the faith that people to choose after they're born into a culture that they're basically stuck with. Islam in African countries wasn't always there.
Sadly, it's harder for African countries to survive daily due to the Annual Income, and the weather they live in as well.
It should be noted that the reason they did not become wealthy countries is because they stuck to tradition for much longer than any other country, and it's being able to survive, be the best in a group, or having a family which is considered wealth.
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Posted: 2006-03-06 19:12
