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Sony Ericsson XPERIA X1 discussion |
max_wedge
Joined: Aug 29, 2004
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On 2008-03-26 09:31:46, mib1800 wrote:
Are we talking about phone OS or some of your other bullsh*t? 
The last I saw, symbian is still way in front in terms of device installed/sales.
That argument again? Methinks we've argued this before mib my old adversery 
s60 is ahead because Nokia have a large marketshare, and they deserve credit for having well spec'd appealing handsets. But their marketshare is not due to smartphone users, but just average end users most of whom have never installed an app on a phone in their life.
I think you will find a higher proportion of WM users are aware of it's capacity as an application platform. Fair or not, "windows mobile" is synonomous with "install your own programs" in the eyes of average consumers. But "s60" and "Symbian" might as well be greek to the same people.
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Dogmann
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
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@askd
The reason i mentioned it is you were saying how great a Bluetooth PAN was and i was just pointing out that there are better alternatives.
Correct like the majority of users i neither know or care much about the technical side of an OS as most all i care about is how well it achieves what i want it to do.
As for this comment
"It may baffle you but hardware is different from software"
Now you really are showing your ignorance as that is just ridiculous to even suggest and insulting and uncalled for.
While with this comment you appear to be getting very confused
"A Dell Axim X51 PDa is no where less capable than an N95 in multimiedia capabilities that mean WM has the multimiedia power required but its not implememtned on most of the hardware"
It may baffle you that it isn't a smart phone so has absolutely no relevance to a discussion on smart phones and whilst it may be possible in a PDA obviously it isn't to date in a smart phone is it?. So currently what ever it may be capable of it isn't currently delivering as good or better experience than Symbian/S60 is it?
Once again please could you explain what this actually means as it seems to just be a contradiction.
"If you say that Symbian phones are better at Multimdeia than WM phones, I will wholeheartadly agree with you but saying SYmbian is better than WM in multimedia is nonsense."
As again not only does this still not make any sense but it also isn't true is it?
Marc
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[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2008-03-26 13:56 ] |
mib1800
Joined: Mar 18, 2004
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On 2008-03-26 14:24:24, Boinng wrote:
No, there isn't - of course there isn't. Because as with any other computer, you exercise some basic care over what you install. You use basic common sense in selecting your software, just as you would for your PC or Mac at home - that doesn't mean being "anxious" about anything, just sensible.
So how can you be sure? Do you have a central body to do QA that a WM program do not do damage like you have with Symbian signed?
With WM, there is more tendency for programmers to use "dangerous" functions without penalty to achieve something instead of doing proper due diligence. This leads to abuse of the OS core. Seen many apps (even from reputable source) that modify initialisation/startup files.
Do you live in constant fear that anything you install on your computer might destroy it? Of course not, although there is always the possibility that badly written or malicious software could do damage, because the chances are you're running an open OS - the exact same principle applies to WM.
With WM you do. With Symbian you dont. 
With Symbian I can be sure that a prog cannot send a premium SMS without me knowing. With WM anything goes. I bet you must be those who always click OK without blinking when an dialog box popup in your browser whether you want to install ActiveX control.
that kind of functionality is easily available via freeware and tweaks on WM, and yet costs $40 for S60 owners, and is the "only" app of its type - I think that supports a lot of what's being said here.
maybe you want to provide a link on your "freeware" that can do what dogmann posted. while you are at it why dont you also show me a advance call management app for WM (like this one http://my-symbian.com/s60v3/s[....]ications.php?fldAuto=156&faq=1 . .
@aksd:
The only reason its more programmer friendly is because its more powerful.
Why are you still confused? Symbian API has more capability than WM. As a programmer you can use ALL of what the API provides. So you can make a more super-duper app with Symbian API ==> it is more powerful.
The main unfriendly you are talking about is getting your software into the market and allowing it to be use in potentially many millions of phone. Like I say if you dont want to pay you can always use the open signed method.
@max_wedge
I think you will find a higher proportion of WM users are aware of it's capacity as an application platform.
This is only due to WM has a longer history (starting from pda era). It is not too difficult to comprehend it has more apps because it has been around longer. But it is just superflous to deduce from because of this it is a more powerful platform. Since the popularity of s60, there are now a flood of new apps being developed. How can you be so sure that s60 would not displace WM in having the most number of apps when app development on S60 goes into full swing.
You keep saying WM is powerful. It may be more powerful if the type of app is PDA type app. But if you want to do a PDA cum phone cum multimedia type app S60 still may be more powerful. For example, is there any app on WM that do something like this: http://my-symbian.com/s60v3/s[....]ications.php?fldAuto=156&faq=1 |
aksd
Joined: Nov 11, 2005
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Yes we'll it was meant to be a wee bit insulting, I think you posted that I know little of the Symbian OS, which I found belittling after posting such exhaustive threads comparing both OS's. My apologies if you did'nt mean anything by it and I will take my comment back.
Now we're talking of an OS, its immaterial where the works, a PDA or a phone, still uses WM does'nt it, its a demonstration that WM has the same multimedia capabilities if put to proper use.
SYmbian phones use hardware acceleration as in the N95 and the N82, this makes them better multimedia devices, we both agree on this, right?
WM phones such as the TyTn2 lack the driver hence make useless multimedia devices, we agree on this as well.
The Dell Axim X51 implements the intel graphic accelerator making it a very capapble multimedia device. THis runs on WM5 modded it runs on WM6 and so on. This has similar multimeida features as the N95/N82.
The iMate 6150 as well has excellent multimeida capabilities due to the GoForce 5500 but not as good as the N95 becuase of improper implementation.
From this we can see that WM as an OS is in no way lacking where multimedia capabilities are concerned but its limitation is due to its hardware. Nokia on the other hand have fully implemented their hardware making a device superior where hardware is concerened and a superior end product no doubt about this. But this does not mean Symbian has superior multimiedia capabilties. If we could install Symbian on a TyTn2 and did'nt implement the drivers we'd still have a crippled device, this is what I mean that SYmbian phones are better than WM where multimedia is concerned but Symbian as an OS is'nt superior to WM in the multimedia aspects of the OS. I hope you have understood it this time round  .
@mib
here you go: http://www.freewarepocketpc.net/ppc-download-isecretary-v4-3.html
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Akshay
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[ This Message was edited by: aksd on 2008-03-26 14:17 ] |
max_wedge
Joined: Aug 29, 2004
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On 2008-03-26 14:08:03, Dogmann wrote:
Sorry but from your answers it is evident you really have very little idea of just how powerful or what is actually available for S60.
From your answer below I think you can ask yourself the same thing about WM.
For instance it is now possible with an app whose name i have forgotten to use your S60 device as a WiFi access point using the devices 3G/HSDPA connection so that a WiFi device such as your Laptop can access the Internet when there is no WiFi available and the speed and bandwidth this offers is far superior to a Bluetooth connection.
What the..? You can do this on WM with a reg hack (no actual software required). Or you can go software if you prefer.
@mib
@Boinng, max
what I meant by brick is the corruption or loss of data / configuration and the effort to bring the phone back to the state before the hang. (I am not saying it cause damage to the hardware ) So there is always the anxiety that the phone will die everytime you install any software (even freeware) in WM. This is the price you pay for "unprotected" OS. I have this same feeling on s60v2 but now with s60v3 I am not worried a bit.
Well, as I said, using your definition, I've never bricked a ppc yet.
Oh, I admit on maybe two occasions (in hundreds of installs), I've had to hack the registry or search google for a fix to something. But never had to hardware reset due to faulty software. I do always google software and try and read reviews before installing, just simple precaution really.
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max_wedge
Joined: Aug 29, 2004
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@mib, agree there is no such thing as answering machine software for most WM phones. The reason is due to HTC hardware, so the problem is not a WM limitation but HTC limitation. The GIGABYTE G-smart for example, does have answering machine software. The G-smart is built by Gigabyte.
http://www.pocketpcmag.com/bl[....]ne_softwa&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1
(note this link is for 2006, HTC may have got their act together since, and there may also be other non-htc WM besides Gigabyte that can use answering machine software such as the iSecretary that aksd linked to)
@dogmann, re: multimedia, again we have tardiness on HTC's part in implementing hardware acceleration. WM itself is not the bottleneck to good video. But I agree this is something that needs addressing by HTC.
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Dogmann
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
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From: London England
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@askd
Your logic is flawed as it really doesn't matter what the potential of an OS or UI is if it is not implemented then it is not available and is wasted, theory counts for very little.
Most if not all would agree including me that UIQ is a great and powerful UI but because currently it is not supported by powerful enough hardware and well enough written code it is failing to achieve it's true potential. So whilst it could be the best it isn't and until such time as it gets those things it won't be the best either.
So to claim anything is the best just on what it could do means nothing you can only judge it on what it actually delivers now that's logical isn't it?
Also again just because some like or can hack and modify their devices doesn't mean everyone either needs to or wants to. All these excuses as to why WM isn't the most used and dominant OS again means nothing the simple fact is it isn't.
Now if it is the best OS for you and what you want and need to do fair enough that's your choice to make and i for one wouldn't try and stop you or suggest you use another OS. But all these its' better it's more powerful statements are not supported by facts.
Marc
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[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2008-03-26 14:37 ] |
anonymuser
Joined: Dec 17, 2002
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On 2008-03-26 15:08:58, mib1800 wrote:
So how can you be sure? Do you have a central body to do QA that a WM program do not do damage like you have with Symbian signed?
No, and that's the whole point - I don't want "Windows Mobile Signed" and I don't know anyone that does. There's no desire amongst WM users for such a "central body" (eg microsoft) to be doing that, and that's because WM users tend to enjoy the freedom that an open OS permits. We're not all cowering away in fear of that "bad" app, we're just enjoying our powerful pocket computers!
With WM, there is more tendency for programmers to use "dangerous" functions without penalty to achieve something instead of doing proper due diligence. This leads to abuse of the OS core. Seen many apps (even from reputable source) that modify initialisation/startup files.
And again, if you install rubbish software (from a "reputable source" or otherwise) and it has some bad knock-on effect, you uninstall it. The biggest "danger" anyone faces from most of these "abusive" applications is the need to remove it.
It's interesting that you selectively ignored the comparisons I drew between WM, S60, and the average desktop OS in my previous post. Can I ask again, do you live in fear of your PC or Mac? Would you rather install S60 on it, rather than meddle in the "dangerous" world of open operating systems like OS X, or Windows? If you can't bear to risk a phone to an open OS, why on earth would you even contemplate risking a whole PC? Think of the damage that might be done!
With Symbian I can be sure that a prog cannot send a premium SMS without me knowing. With WM anything goes. I bet you must be those who always click OK without blinking when an dialog box popup in your browser whether you want to install ActiveX control.
I think that quote just sums up how wrongheaded your attitude is, to be honest. You're accusing me of being blase about security (clicking OK without blinking) when in fact it's me arguing the simple point that you should take care over what software you install, and you believing that S60 can protect you from anything!
maybe you want to provide a link on your "freeware" that can do what dogmann posted.
It's all out there - for starters try a google for WMWifiRouter for the wifi access point, although it's possible to do the same with just registry tweaks, if you know what you're doing.
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aksd
Joined: Nov 11, 2005
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From: UK, India
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@Marc,
I'm afraid its your logic thats flawed or you still have'nt fully understood what we're debating here. We're debating about OS capabilities not about the capabilities of their implementations.
I have mentioned that WM is'nt for everyone nor will it ever be, and I dont think an end user such as yourself can ever understand why the hardcore programming enthusiasts prefer WM, although the programming enthusiasts can understand the end user, else you would'nt hae S60 now would you.
I have repeatadly mentioned each to his/her own, decide your purchase depending on your induvidual needs, that does'nt make another product inferior in anyway. And like I told mib if you decide to buy a phone depending solely on how popular it is on the market, your logic is completely flawed.
You're joking right, please implement C# on your S60, or write me an app or get some one to write me an app using restricted APIs which are totally in the open on WM, you dont need written proof for that. Most people in the know, no all people in the know accept that WM is more programmer freindly, it really des'nt matter wheather or not you accept this fact, not going to change anything, WM is and will be more powerful of the two OSs from a programmers point of view in the near future, but less powerful in the end users point of view(till decent hardware is released to fully implement WM).
and one more , I'd very much appreciate if you used my handle "aksd" rather than "askd". Thank you.
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Akshay
http://www.flickr.com/photos/akshaydashrath/
[ This Message was edited by: aksd on 2008-03-26 14:56 ] |
mib1800
Joined: Mar 18, 2004
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I have some inkling that you will post this app. I hope you know this is a half-a** app. This just illustrate sufficiently why WM is behind Symbian in this aspect. You can clearly see that an app cannot take control of a call because there is no API support unlike symbian. Some comment:-
I mean the greeting is played on the speaker so that it is audiable to the caller. If that is so , then this is really dumb..
and just like everyone else my message was recorded and played on my own phone speaker... how dumb!
Yeah, what's the point of such answering machine app.
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aksd
Joined: Nov 11, 2005
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From: UK, India
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On 2008-03-26 15:55:40, mib1800 wrote:
I have some inkling that you will post this app. I hope you know this is a half-a** app. This just illustrate sufficiently why WM is behind Symbian in this aspect. You can clearly see that an app cannot take control of a call because there is no API support unlike symbian. Some comment:-
I mean the greeting is played on the speaker so that it is audiable to the caller. If that is so , then this is really dumb..
and just like everyone else my message was recorded and played on my own phone speaker... how dumb!
Yeah, what's the point of such answering machine app.
LOL! I knew you were expecting this, so reply is ready .
The sound through speaker is hardware implementation issue on many HTC phones such as very sadly the TyTn2 and Crusie etc.., works fine on the Touch and Asus phones and a few others.
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mib1800
Joined: Mar 18, 2004
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@max_wedge:
write me an app or get some one to write me an app using restricted APIs which are totally in the open on WM, you dont need written proof for that.
There are only very few restricted APIs mostly for critical device level access. For example the format drive function or maybe to shutdown the radio. I think for most practical purpose you dont need these APIs (unless of course you are a hacker)
The GIGABYTE G-smart for example, does have answering machine software.
I have seen an O2 Stealth having an answering m/c but this one is built totally outside of WM (like a plug-in app to WM). So you can forget about building a integrated call mananagement app (like the example app I gave on S60) because it is totally not supported.
@aksd
The biggest "danger" anyone faces from most of these "abusive" applications is the need to remove it.
Only if you have the chance. Sometimes the damage is done when the app is run. So the question is as a end-users, why should we put up with this?
boinng
You're accusing me of being blase about security
Sorry. I think I overstepped here. To non-geek general end-users I was wondering whether the trade-off of not having an app certified but with the capability of unprotected OS is justifiable or not.
Yes, you can be cautious but like I say this is no guarantee with reputable apps as there is no distinction between dangerous APIs or otherwise. There is always pros and cons. |
Dogmann
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
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@askd
Maybe for programers WM is the dog's dangly bits but they surely make up a a very small percentage of users don't they.
As for going and writing you an app or having anyone do that for why should i need to when i can find anything i want for my device to do it already with out the need or inconvenience to have to bother either writing it myself or getting it done.
But you know what your right WM is the most powerful and advanced OS on the planet and SE make the best and most reliable handsets and the X1 will sell millions and dominate the whole smartphone world NOT.
Marc
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[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2008-03-26 18:12 ] |
aksd
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@mib
You've put up a very good technical based argument so far and countered every WM feature I have mentioned with an S60 one, its been a pleasure debating with you , and it would be naive of me to say I have'nt learnt something from our debates, and we can go on and on with me saying the call recorder works on some handsets and this works on others, WM is installed on far too many different platforms for us to be able to generalize about the implementation.
Yes WM have a few lacking APIs but workarounds have been figured out, Symbian have far more restrecited API especially with memory management which is a set back imo(read soemting about it a long time ago, during ym M600i days), and tiny niggling things such as unable to set up a cache(as far as I know) or a swap like I do on my RoKR E6.
We can agree that each platfrom is unique in its own way catering to different types of users. WM being a lot more programmer powerful, like Linux is more programmer powerful than Windows. The more openeness leads to a lot more work on the platform. It seems some of the memebers here consider features as OS power whcih it definately is'nt.
I'm thinking lets call the debate quits , but if you'd like to go on I'm game, but eventually we are going to start repeating ourselves.
But phones aside, dont you think when you pay for a device you'd like to install any type of software on it and not what the manufacturer controls, its like democracy and communism . I'm generally for democracy but I dont have issues with communism(if you're chinese, russian or from some other communist nation ) Each to his own.
@ Dogmann
Your posts amuse me(I will ignore the sarcasm in your post as that actually makes your post quite usless like most of your posts in this thread, mindless arguing without much based on any real understand of an OS, which is what we're talking about.). You somehow relate a technical discussion into a marketing one, one which I have not bothered to talk about except in my intial posts, never did I say it will become a worldwide success, it will experince relative success in the WM world is what I have mentioned and it will happen. I never said it is the most advanced, please do not make mi-informed statements it just brings out how "fanboyish" you are,. SE too do not interst me, DO NOT make me look like a fanboy as I am not one, which most of my posts prove. it is just that I like keeping things in a blanaced point of view, not favouring any OS or manufacturer something that you seem incapable of.
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Akshay
http://www.flickr.com/photos/akshaydashrath/
[ This Message was edited by: aksd on 2008-03-26 18:15 ]
[ This Message was edited by: aksd on 2008-03-26 18:16 ] |
Dogmann
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: > 500
From: London England
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@askd
You missed out IMO as that is all your views are as you really don't know that i am a fan of only one OS or manufacturer because as it happens I'm not.
I buy what suits my needs and offers me the best value for my money when i purchase a new device. After 20 odd years of using mainly Ericsson and SE devices only because the M600 was so bad did i feel the need to look elsewhere and have only been using S60 since June 2006.
I have also in that time tried using a TyTN but found i just didn't like it, who knows depending on what new devices come out i may even find myself using an Android device or even the new Garmin Nuvi phone that actually looks a lot like the P9 series but with a 3.5" Touchscreen and it appears no Keyboard.
So please don't tell me what i think as clearly you don't have a clue.
Marc
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[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2008-03-26 20:53 ] | |
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Posted: 2008-03-26 14:43
