Posted by scotsboyuk
Having conducted some research on the topic of politcal and/or religious debates on Esato I find that many aren't particuarly keen on them. I can't say I am myself.
Such debates are fine when they are kept civil and everyone respects one another's points, but of course this seems to be more and more of a rare occurrence. As I see it they lead to anger and resentment amongst members and they spill over into the rest of the forum.
Why are such topics even debated on Esato at the level they are? Esato is supposed to be a website dedicated to mobile phones in general and SE phone in particular not a political or religious forum. There are a number of such forums on the internet where such topics can be discussed.
Esato has a very strong sense of community, which goes beyond mobile phones and of course non-mobile issues are and should be discussed. However, when those topics start to cause flame wars and insults and anger I don't think they are really in the best interest of this forum or its members. Other non-mobile discussions reguarly entertain and interest us to the extent that we speak to members we may not have known before and we make new freinds and have a spot of fun in the process. The political and religious debates seem to do little other than alienate people and cause divisions.
I do not buy into the notion, which says 'If you don't like it, don't read it' in this case because these sorts of topics have a habit of raising their ugly heads all over the place. They don't seem to be able to stay within their own territory and creep out to other threads.
Now personally I would be quite happy if those sorts of topics were banned from Esato completely, but I recognise that we do have a community spirit here, which, as I said before, does take in non-mobile issues too. I would favour, and indeed call for, tighter control over how such topics are handled. Call me autocratic if you will, but at the first hint of flaming or bitterness such threads should either be locked or deleted. Perhaps those who cannot conduct themselves in a civil manner in a debate should be barred from participating in such debates?
I would like to here the opinions of others' on this issue. Commets are very welcome indeed.
_________________
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC
[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2005-07-09 20:14 ]
Posted by voda_jon
@scotsboyuk....
I whole heartedly agree... If i wanted to rant about political an ethical subjects i would go to a forum dedicated to that sort of debate.... I come to Esato (not very often since i found se-nse
) to look for fone info and downloads not politcal arguements... an the comment 'if u dont like it dont read it' is totally wrong...
ITS A MOBILE PHONE FORUM LETS KEEP IT THAT WAY!
Posted by whizkidd
Saw this thread just when i was gonna reply to your pm regarding the matter! Scots, i think for a forum as big, vibrant and multi-cultured as esato, political-religious debates do have a place. But, i have to agree on the thought that such threads may lead to flame wars or animosity between members who have contrasting opinions...its a delicate issue.
Posted by superstags
fully agree with your comment scotsboy, i look here for fone info regularly and post rarely, this is a mobile fone dedicated forum, not a political/religious forum.
Posted by masseur
since this has now gone public I will give my opinion as stated in PM that Esato is not a "dedicated" mobile phone forum, it is a community primarily based around Sony Ericsson phones but where we discuss (almost) any issues including topics of the day. Its just unfortunate that the topics of politics and moreso, religion, have much broader views depending on the members background, culture, beliefs etc etc.
This does not mean that we should not discuss such topics but it does mean that members should excercise a little more restraint when replying and try to be a little more mature rather than resorting to name calling etc but this is forum policy for any topic
in regards to...
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I disagree. if you come here for mobile topics then why go looking in the non mobile forums as they are quite distinct and therefore easy to avoid. However as a passing comment, I see that that you have participated in many many non mobile related topics as has the thread starter, myself and many regulars for whatever reasons we have be they for light relief or to partake of a serious discussion (though these admittedly are harder to find
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There are many topics that I have no interest in and I do simply ignore them and its not hard to do, especially if I feel they are complete nonesense because of their content (i.e. any by meths
) or the discussion is going nowhere. I don't feel simply because I disagree with the content of the topic that I MUST reply to it to make others know that I disagree with the topic.. I just pass on by
Clearly this is also the general case at Esato as not every member participates in every thread here but for some reason people seem not able to bypass the type of threads being discussed in this topic
so, to put the question in reverse, why should political and religious topics upset those who have no interest in them or believe them to be not worthwhile subjects each time these topics are raised?
from a moderators point of view these threads are a pain in the... well you know... as we have to watch them more carefully than we do most other threads, even if we have no interest ourselves, but the same applies to some of the very borderline garbage threads too and its just something we have to take care of. For this reason only I would like to see less of all these
However, consider as an example the recent London bombings where a group called "Secret Group of Al Qaeda's Jihad in Europe" claimed responsibility. This immediately makes that discussion turn to religion in one form or another and thence quite often a political one when governments are blamed for this reason or that and all this is completely unavoidable. Should we then disallow the discussion of the London bombings? I think not.
in conclusion, I motion to not add any restriction to these threads however I will take on board, as I'm sure other moderators will, all comments made here and consider them in moderator forum discussion and so now having given my thoughts in this post I'll not debate the topic further myself but will look forward to comments from other members
Posted by absinthebri
As someone who is interested in politics, I note (often wryly) how often political posts are made by people who will say they are not political or do not wish to discuss politics.
To say "The bombings in London are outrageous" is a political statement (and one I'm sure we ALL agree with (and that's a political statement, too)).
The issue appears not to be political posts, but political posts WE DISAGREE WITH.
And, (and this is an outrageous political statement) people who want to stiffle legitimate debate and freedom of speech are no better than the terrorists.
You can see the mess we get ourselves in to, even "innocently".
Posted by scotsboyuk
@masseur & absin
You both raise valid points. I would like to say that the issue isn't one of regarding such topics as 'unworthy' as such, they often touch upon very interesting topics. However, they also often spiral into pettiness and confrontation, which then spills over into other parts of the forum.
When absin says "The issue appears not to be political posts, but political posts WE DISAGREE WITH." I don't see that as being the issue at all. Disagreement is fine, if it can be conducted in a civil manner, which does not lead to the afore mentioned results. The problem lies in the fact that people get so worke dup over such issues. Any issue, whether it be political/religious or otherwise, which reults in fighting or bitterness or confrontation is detrimental to the forum and its members in my opinion. It just so happens that politcal/religious threads tend to see this behaviour all too often.
I can't agree with masseur when he talks of the 'don't like it don't look' approach because as I said, such issues have had a tendency to spill beyond their borders and involve people anyway.
The recent thread concerning the London bombings is one example of this. Obstensibly setup to show respect to those caught up in the atatcks and discuss them it has degenerated, at points, into pettiness and recrimination. The chap who created the thread and others have had to call for the thread to remain on-topic a few times.
Once again I state, if one wishes to discuss such issues then why not do so on a dedicated forum? If they must be discussed here then I think there should be greater enforcement upon such threads to ensure that they neither descend into bitter flaming or spill out into other threads.
Posted by MikLSP
My opinion is that having threads on religious debates or the likes is a sure line for trouble on an open forum like this, someone will cause trouble and (no offense but) there are also a lot of 'kids' in places like this who will think it is funny to cause tension.
Any such discussions will just end up in a flame war and as a result I think they should be closed and the posters adviced to go to a dedicated site for that sort of thing to discuss it further.
If selling non-mobile items is banned due to being 'not in the essence of esato' then neither is religious debate
Posted by scotsboyuk
@Mik
A very good point as far as I'm concerned. If laffen is interested in preserving the 'essence' of Esato then one would have thought that threads, which often cause flaming and division would not be conductive to that 'essence'.
Posted by Sammy_boy
I do sometimes find those kinds of threads quite interesting, but they do tend to degenerate into flame wars far too quickly, there does seem to be a minority that either take those threads too seriously or seem to go out of their way to wind other people up.
Posted by slattery69
i agree with sammyboy i enjoy the thread up till the points people become disrespcetful of other peoples views.
to often i find people un willing to listen to any other theories other than there own.
at that point its no longer a discussion. i think if people try to appreciate others view points we could all make use of such discussions but if not they should just be locked.
Posted by scotsboyuk
@slattery
I would agree very much with that. Such threads can be very interesting when the people involved are able to debate with one another in a civil manner. Sadly they usually end up turning into flame wars with people determined to bang their drum irrespective of others.
That's the reason I favour tougher moderation of such threads to keep them in line. That is if they have to exist at all.
Posted by Elrond
In my opinion discussions in political and religious threads leads often if not always into flame wars, so the best choice would be imho to try not creating any of these types of threads. We should try not creating any of these types. There are a lot of sites which are related to such a discussions.
Posted by absinthebri
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I find political threads are quite firmly moderated. I'm often 'advised' on the nature of my political postings. I'm also often advised when people contact a moderator about the content of my posts and no action is taken. This would suggest that some people are more interested in trying to censor me rather than have any valid point to bring up.
Posted by scotsboyuk
@absin
With respect to the moderators, I don't think such threads are moderated enough judging by the flaming and pettiness that I see occurring with such issues.
As for censorship, this isn't a democarcy and neither you, I or anyone else has a right to say what they like. I am actually rather heartened to hear that othe rmembers are as concerned with this issue as I am and pm the moderators with their concerns.
Posted by soulframe
I must appologise for what has happened to my thread. I did state a few times that it was for discussing the events of 07/07/05 but no body seemed to care. At the time I started the thread no one really knew what was going on, I just wanted to SHARE information on what was going on. Seeing as the event has passed I would request that mod close it now as it has turned downright sour. Please feel free to continue the subject matter in another thread, (which hopefully I won't post in) I shall from now on try my best to keep my political/religous views to my self.
Again sorry for any trouble I may have cuased.
Posted by absinthebri
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And I'm heartened that the moderators can see the difference between what is offensive and what is merely an attempt at censorship.
Posted by absinthebri
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*You* didn't cause any trouble. It was/is generally a good thread. It seems that these sort of events naturally lead us to enquire into the nature of things and to look at causes.
People have different interpretations of the nature of the causes of it all, and that's where many unhelpful issues spring up from.
Posted by scotsboyuk
@soulframe
You didn't cause any trouble at all old boy. It is a shame that your thread was turned away from what you intended.
Posted by Sammy_boy
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It's not your fault, it's people threadjacking your thread! I have to admit I've decided not to post in it any more, the conspiracy theoriests and nutters have started now!
Posted by BobaFett
@scotty i do remember our conversations in such threads once. We had mainly different opinions ;-) anyway, the decision is up to laffen and mods, how to manage the future of such threads. I stopped to visit them, however i am very interested in politic, religions etc and according of the different nationalities and opinions of the members, esato would be the perfect place to share and discuss opinions. But... I come to esato to keep a legend alive. And in my thread is always 'peace'...
Posted by Sammy_boy
I remember me and axxxr having a few 'interesting' discussions, but we both kept it polite, no flaming or name calling, and using measured arguments and nothing inflammatory, If only everyone was a bit more considerate - as I said before, arguing (not debating - there is a difference) over the internet has to be one of the most pointless pastimes ever!
Posted by absinthebri
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No it's not. You're wrong!
Posted by Sammy_boy
No, I'm right and everyone else is wrong!! I'll spend the next month of my life wearing my keyboard out proving it to you!!!
Posted by absinthebri
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It's a conspiracy!
Posted by Jim
It depends of people posting actually, most of the time some doesn't listen to others arguments/comments but only those with the same idea and the minor side has to shut up and leave the thread (see latest Iraq thread), so what's the point of having the debate with only one side defending the arguments ?
Allthough I prefer a good difference of opinions some people don't know their limits and just asks for a flamewar.
Banning or not ? Good question, I'm for it unless more mature comments are posted but yeah the easy way is to ignore them
Posted by scotsboyuk
@masseur
I should say with regards to your comments about non-mobile threads; I do post in them and even create them. But there is a difference between a thread, which is not peppered with the potential for flaming (no matter how silly it may be) and one that will almost inevitable descend into petty squabbling and flaming.
_________________
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC
[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2005-07-10 00:27 ]
Posted by OluYom
My experience with political/religious threads has been limited. Why?
The first such thread I posted in last year began to degenerate, so I simply walked away before it became too heated. But it seems that is too much for most people to do
I'd rather make friends than fight, anyday.
As such, I don't bother with such threads anymore. I simply ignore them and stay happy.
Whatever approach the mods take is okay with me. It may very well depend on laffen's vision for the forum.
Managing people can be a tough nut to crack.
Posted by Pradhika
The dedicated Esato services should be on forever. Any decision in its favour must be appreciated.
Posted by ThreeX
My opinion (public this time) is that this is a mobile phones (and related stuff) forum, and though i don´t want Esato to become a boring internet based helpdesk/knowledge base, i do believe in weeding out threads/topics not even remotely connected to the above mentioned. There are other forums, IRC and various messenger apps for chit-chatting about whatever issues.
IMO it doesn´t work with controlled political or religious matter-threads. Unfortunately it´s like leaving two pitbulls in a room and tell them both to behave..
I even have close friends with whom i never discuss certain matters, because we have found out in a peaceful way that we will never ever agree in our lifetimes. Unfortunately that solution is no good here, since there´s always the 'got to have the last word' kind of people gathering around "hot" threads like flies around a cowpie.
Anyway, just my .2€
Posted by absinthebri
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Why did you say .2€ and not .2$? Are you anti-American?
Posted by carkitter
Hahaha!
That'll start a flame war!
I'm now 33yrs old and my political and religious views have changed and matured alot, during the last 5 years in paricluar. I am passionate about the things I believe and I think all people should have a well-thought-out political view and religious belief system. The trouble is that most people simply repeat meaningless media slogans and conspiracy theories. I used to do this too. I guess it's where you start when you first become aware of the way the world works...
Posted by ThreeX
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Absolutely not! My heart really bleeds for the native Americans, put in reservations like second class citizens
*Oops, hope i didn´t start something now*
Seriously, The € feels closer to home than the $
I can edit it to SEK 2.00 if it makes anybody feel better
Posted by scotsboyuk
I would be quite interested in hearing the opinions of the other moderators on this issue.
Posted by absinthebri
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Translation: I'd like one of the moderators to support me.
Posted by scotsboyuk
@absin
Believe it or not, but not everyone sees the world in terms of who supports who and who does not. You have consistently tried to take this thread off-topic because you do not like the subject matter.
Having already spoken to some of the moderators on this subject I already know what their opinion of it is. I would simply like to hear what they have to say in relation to some of the points, which have been made in this thread so far. As surprising as it may be for you, I do not need others to support my point of view, I am quite capable of making my arguments on my own.
I should point out though, that I am highly doubtful of the moderators giving me any great deal of support on this issue. Hardly a case for calling for them to support me!
_________________
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC
[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2005-07-10 16:50 ]
Posted by absinthebri
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I believe it. I speak for me. Where have I attempted to go off-topic?
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I know you are. You're quite political when you feel like it; you just don't like it when other people are.
Posted by scotsboyuk
@absin
Look back over your posts and you shall see where you have tried to threadjack.
Everyone is political, we all have opinions. I try my best to leave politics out of my participation on Esato, it is a mobile phone forum after all. It seems perfectly sensible to me that if one wishes to discuss such issues one does not go to a mobile phone forum.
_________________
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC
[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2005-07-10 16:54 ]
Posted by scotsboyuk
I use to discuss politics quite heavily here at Esato until I realised what a complete waste of time doing so actually is. I would get into flame wars with people and there would be pettiness unbounded. Usually two narrow minded camps would form on each side determined to push their views upon the other, degenerating into ever more petty squabbling. It doesn't appear to have changed a great deal.
Having had first hand experience of this I can't say I like it one bit. Esato doesn't need that sort of behaviour at all. It would be great if we could have such debates without all the animosity and fighting, but that appears to be beyond us for some reason.
I come to Esato for mobile phones and fun. I also come to Esato to help people with their problems. I don't come to Esato for politics. I go to a political forum for that.
_________________
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC
[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2005-07-10 17:12 ]
Posted by gbrooks3
@absinthebri
Why are you creating an argument here? Scotsboy was making a very valid and respectful point. Don't undermine the thread with a stupid argument over nothing. The truth is, politics have become so embedded in everyone (a good thing) that when a contrary point to ones opinion is explicated it is bound to create unrest.
Plus, if you have a problem with scotsboy why not pm him? Its stupid posts that turn good forums in a place only fit for rubbish.
Posted by absinthebri
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I've read tham all. I did write them. I wouldn't ask if I knew.
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I think that many of us don't come here to discuss politics (I arrived when I bought my T68i) but that some of us are very aware that actions have consequences and all things are interconnected.
Remember the adverts on TV before the General Election "I don't do politics"? Politics, for better or worse, is everywhere.
I do agree, it can be rather tedious when it's the same old stuff that comes up every time (and I'm someone who's interested in it).
_________________
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC
[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2005-07-10 16:54 ]
[/quote]
Posted by scotsboyuk
@absin
We both know exactly what you were trying to do and I'm quite sure anyone with eyes in their head can too. Hence I shan't further dilute this thread by replying to that particular point.
I have no problem with politics/religion being discussed where it can be discussed in a civil manner that does not lead to flaming or petty squabbles. Sadly that doesn't appear to be the norm, rather it would be the exception to the rule.
The point still remains; why come to a mobile phone forum to discuss politics? I am a member of a political forum too (www.projectevil.com) where I go if I wish to discuss such issues. If I have a political question to ask or debate my first thought is not of Esato. Funnily enough I tend to think of Esato as somewhere I can go to learn about and discuss mobile phones.
_________________
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC
[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2005-07-10 17:10 ]
Posted by absinthebri
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All I'm saying is that anything can be political and when you have no politics, you have nothing.
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I actually enjoy his posts as he's consistently coherent. He uses apostrophies and stuff.
Posted by absinthebri
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I DON'T see it. Honestly.
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I'm not disagreeing with that.
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I'm not sure people do come here to discuss politics, merely that politics naturally comes up when discussing life. As does religion. Certainly, when I want to learn and discuss political issues, Esato isn't my obvious choice.
Posted by scotsboyuk
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That's a valid point, in the real world, but this isn't the real world. This is a mobile phone forum. The last time I checked, discussion of the situation in Iraq wasn't a prequisite for discussing SE's latest models or how to connect to the internet through your handset.
Mobile phone issues for mobile phone forums; political issues for political forums.
If we must have them here then I think they need to be 'policed' more heavily. Keep them inside their own little threads and away from everyone else.
Posted by absinthebri
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I agree, this is a mobile phone forum and its primary purpose should be the discussion of mobile phones and related issues. I don't have an issue with that.
But unless that's all that's permitted, I'm not sure how we can proceed.
People wish, for example, to offer condolences when there is a disaster or attrocity. I'm thinking not only of the events of last Thursday but of, say, the tsunami last December. Other people will naturally want to look at what brought about the events that took place, who may be to blame. etc. This seems natural and to have a non-political environment is to have a sterile environment.
Posted by masseur
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this pretty much sums up my point of view and the thoughts I was expressing in my first post of this thread
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I certainly wouldn't come to Esato specifically to discuss politics, religion, aviation, massage travel, frequent flyer clubs, cars I drive, watches I wear etc etc but these are all topics (and more) that I have participated in as a member of the Esato community and to be honest I have little time to spend on other forums so I'm happy to have a bit of non mobile related social chat here
so really, this topic seems not to be to disallow the political or religious topics, since clearly they are unavoidable in many circumstances, but infact the argument is to try and make members more aware that these subjects do become highly controversial given the broad spectrum of Esato members and as such should be approached a little more lightly and with less antagonism than they currently are, and if that is the real intention of this thread then I can only agree
Posted by scotsboyuk
@absin
I'm glad you made mention of that actually because it allows me to make a very important point.
Non-mobile related issues should of course be discussed, there is after all non-mobile forums here. They add an extra level of depth to this forum, which makes it both a fun and interesting place to visit.
However, what isn't desirable is when we have issues, which lead to flaming, anger, bitterness, recrimination and division. Now of course this can happen in non-political/religious threads, but of course the political/religious threads themselves seem to have this fate as a birthright!
If we actually look at the thread created to honour the victims of the London attacks, it has gone from that to descending into petty squabbling and anger at various points. Such threads are fine in principle, but when they threaten to degenerate into such rediculous behaviour the moderators should immediately step in to stop that from happening.
Reasoned, calm, civil and respectful debate, but when it turns then it is time to end it. Lock or delete such threads. If such threads are moderated strictly then gradually that tendency to degenerate will go because people will know that if it does the debate is over. Simple and effective.
Posted by scotsboyuk
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As I said before, persoanlly I would prefer such discussions banned completely, but of course I don't make the decisions.
If political/religious discussions are to take place on Esato then I feel there needs to be stronger moderation of them. By nipping flaming and ange rin the bud before they are allowed to develop will create a pattern that people will recognise i.e. either stay civil or you don't get the opportunity to debate because your thread will be locked/deleted.
Posted by axxxr
knock Knock!...Can someone help me with my k750 please?
Oh sorry i thought i was in the mobile phone forum?