Posted by Wuz
@ scotsboy
1. "a mobile phone forum dedicated to SE phones that also incorporates other brands and non-mobile related discussions as a sideline" = That is today's Esato.
2. "A forum where people are free to request help or express opinions without being harangued by a mob" = I would state confidently that the vast majority of posts requesting help or expressing opinions are not subject to ridicule.
3. "A forum where threads don't degenerate into petty squabbling on a frequent basis" = if you examine all the threads posted on the site and count the ones that end in squabbling, can you really say it would be more than 1 in 20.
4. "A forum where members don't constantly question the moderator's actions" = Again, as a proportion of the members on the site, can this really amount to anything 'signifiant' - surely less than 1% of members do this.
5. "A forum where people don't feel the need to make posts just for the sake of posting" = perhaps..but surely you can ignore these and an issue on any forum.
6. "A forum where rubbish and tosh doesn't rule the day" = If this was really the case with Esato, then it would be reflected in a general dwindling of numbers on the site...I believe the opposite is true.
I don't see a problem Scotsboy...but maybe thats the point...I'm not looking for one.
Posted by scotsboyuk
@Wuz
I have never put much stock in numbers, they can be used to show almost anything one wishes. Myself and others see that there is a problem; many agree with us to a greater or lesser extent and many disagree with us to a greater or lesser extent.
Far from looking for a problem, the problem seems to have found us. Some of us can see it, whilst others apparently either do not, or choose not, to see it.
If you don't think there is a problem then that is fine, you are perfectly entitled to your own view. Perhaps I am indeed singing 'There Will Always Be An England' in the Long Bar and perhaps the Esato I knew has vanished forver; the closer I look the more certain that seems to be. I do see a problem, whether you agree with that assessment or not is entirely your own choice ...
Posted by DeLa
I don't know if I'm to consider myself a new member but I have been on many forums before. Forums get popular and then attract a lot of people (kids, socially inept people, ...) that disturb. They capitalise on the value 'original' members have created but do not add anything themselves. Usually forums never recover from that because you can't manage the popularity of your forum.
I find Esato harder and harder to use these days:
- "serious" questions about some technical topic or closely related to SE get buried deep in the other nonsense threads and you have to be lucky to be read and replied to
- the search has become irrelevant because of the huge amount of post you have to plow through, so you are inclined to start a new thread or jump in a thread where you see the people you think might have the answer are in and then you go off-topic there.
I'm very pessimistic. I don't think Esato can recover from this. People with 'inside' information that found an informed audience are gone and they won't come back and that is a mayor miss.
You might have a go at it anyway by changing the front page where the last changed threads are mentioned to some more complex listing where 'quality' threads get more attention.
Posted by Vlammetje
That might actually be a very useful idea! To only include
forums and review forums and perhaps rumours in the latest posts section. Heck you might even include pointers to a 'tech FAQ' on the front page, in the hope people will go there 
Maybe this is one for the Bugs & features request thread...... another one that seems useful to the eye of the beholder (me in this case) but judging by the fact it has not been pinned, may bear a lot less weight than we would like to?
Does any of this feedback ever go anywhere beyond these threads anyway??
Posted by scotsboyuk
@DeLa
You make some good points, but I have always liked to think that there was a way, to borrow tranquil's metaphoe, to turn the ship around.
@Vlamm
One does wonder ...
Posted by Rokin#128
"The best thing about this ship is that there is no 1st, 2nd or 3rd class cabins. Everyone on the ship is equal and are treated the same way."
Then why not delete the postcounts and faded avatars system, and at least get rid of the newbee-seniority blabbel going around in posts lately and ending up in flamewars.
Posted by Vlammetje
much of the 'blabbel' is the responsibility of members themselves and no policy imposed will make up for bad behaviour....
Posted by scotsboyuk
@Vlamm
Quite, but a firm hand wouldn't go amiss either.
Posted by Dragonfly_TP
I'm not sure what kind of poster I am... maybe a combination of some
Posted by mustafabay
I agree with Vlamm on what should get put on the latest posts section. I also think it would be nice if "For sale" and "Looking For" posts get put in the latest posts on wap but have link to the market place instead. I don't really like seeing 3-4 market threads in the latest 10 posts when I log on. I've also notticed quite a few repeated posts lately. It would be nice if they just were deleted. I know I first said it was a good idea to add more moderators, but I guess if the current ones don't feel that the burden is to great then I'll side with them.
Posted by amfne033
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One does admit she has a point. i like esato the way it is. sure there are a few weirdo's but thats life just dont read their threads.
One things that sticks out though if scotsboy ever became a moderator then we are all buggerd.
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SAFC 2 NUFC 1 [ This Message was edited by: amfne033 on 2005-05-24 15:49 ]
Posted by scotsboyuk
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I see where you are coming from, but I have never been one to simply accept such things. Better to have tried to make a difference for the good and fail than to not try at all.
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You shall all feel my wrath! Moo ha ha ha ha ha ... oh wait I'm not a moderator yet! Oops! Patience scots, patience, soon they will all tremble in fea ... is this thing still on?
Seriously though, I would be very unlikely to accept any such position unless it was under exceptional circumstances. There are people far more qualified for the position than myself.
Posted by Vlammetje
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such as...... being asked?
Posted by scotsboyuk
@Vlamm
Basically yes!
No, joking aside, only if I felt that I could really make a positive difference and that I would be best for the job. As I said before, I think there are people who would be better than me in the position and I would recommend them before myself.
Posted by dave_uk
I think that these threads do no harm at all. How can it be a bad thing for us to discuss in a semi-organised and civil manner what is happening in the Forum. Having read Scots' typically lengthy, but also insightful initial post, I can't help but be instantly able to identify with what he is saying. However, I also can't help but think that there are various parts of those categorisations in many of us, certainly myself.
Really, I have a couple of points:
Firstly, there is definitely something in this, but I'm not sure what you can do about it. It tends to be in fits and starts as particular members come and go and IMHO 90% of the crap is posted by a tiny percentage of the membership. The only way to change this is an unrealistic and drastic overhaul, both in the way in which the forum is moderated and the fact that the admin would effectively have to decide to exclude members based on the poverty of their contribution to the forum. Apart from the vast subjectivity this would involve, it is not really a very nice way to behave. It would create an interesting environment, but the bizarre variety is part of Esato's true value, although it may seem irritating to some (myself included at times), at best.
Secondly, as I said before, I'm not sure whether it is a little dangerous to categorise members' posting characteristics in this way. Whilst I agree whole-heartedly that obvious examples spring to mind when reading the initial post, I also feel that the members for whom I have the most respect are equally guilty of some of these characteristics in different ways. I know I have been guilty of doing the Political Activist (much to masseur's chagrin
) on a few occasions.
The content here is reflective of people's moods when they post as much as anything else, and therefore human nature. That is a big issue to tackle and attempt to solve, although I admire scotsboy's genuine desire to do so. But I fear it is unrealisitic and must agree with those who have said that no matter how many times this is brought up, it is something of an unbreakable cycle and we must embrace the benefits of Esato's diversity rather than focussing on the more unpleasant and admittedly frequently irritating side of the forum.
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Don't get scammed on Esato - read this thread before you buy!
[ This Message was edited by: dave_uk on 2005-05-23 16:32 ]
Posted by axxxr
Very nicely put dave_uk,i very much agree with everything that you have stated there.
These discussions will come and go but esato will very much remain as it is,and no doubt a few months or maybe years down the line we be having this debate again.Its all part of a healthy and prosperous forum.
Posted by scotsboyuk
@dave_uk
Thank you for that equally lengthy and very insightful post, you are a credit to Esato.
The more I contemplate this subject the more I realise that it seems a lost cause, but as I said before, I hate to abandon something without having at least tried.
I agree that there are parts of those definitions in all of us to a certain extent and I have another defintion to add:
The Pompous Windbag - this character likes the sight of his own typing and will often post long, sometimes very long, sometimes very very long, posts, which could be condensed into a few lines.
Typically well meaning, these people are nevertheless annoying in that they seem to drone on about topics that are either high brow or just dull or perhaps even a combination of both. It has been noted that there also exists a certain penchant for using francais in everyday speech to such an extent that it is sans its inherent joy de vivre and has become de rigeur.
Seemingly able to post in any thread irrespective of subject matter these people should not be argued with unless one is prepared for an extremely long debate, which may affect one's vision owing to the amount of reading one will have to do.
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[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2005-05-23 17:03 ]
Posted by mustafabay
@amfne
Now thats not nice. Lastride was actually siding with me and why wouldn't she, she was on wap too.
Maybe there'd be a way fo wappers to sidestep empty posts.
Posted by milmino
I pesonally like the way esato evolves over the time, It is a dynamic forum that you can rest assured will be very different (or not, depending on how you look at it) within the next 3 years.
I also dont mind the diversity of the forums, it keeps it from being boring..
Posted by dave_uk
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You know, I'm having trouble with that one....I know there's someone, but I just can't place him....?
Posted by scotsboyuk
@dave_uk
I seem to recall he was a rather good looking fellow, reminiscent of a young Obi-Wan Kenobi ...
Those definitions are my own of course, you will all have your own personal pet peeves. There as aspects of those definitions within each of us and more besides. I am not arguing against diversity or fun, but rather the mindless numbness that has sprung up.
_________________
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC
[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2005-05-24 01:35 ]
Posted by Vlammetje
Obia
sacrilegde!
Posted by ewap8
Oh I'm so glad scotsboyuk created this thread.
I remember back when I joined. No one from those days is still active here, neither am I. I just think the forum has been filled with utter cr@p now. Too much going on, too little that essentially makes any sense.
I do keep coming back once in a while to get up-to-date with the mobile tech news, but its just not the same...
Posted by sapporobaby
@ewap8,
Good point. I normally come here and talk to people mainly in PM now.
I have an idea, why don't the mods take away the post counts and see how many stick around. There are some here that simply post to have something to say. There is really very little info being passed now. Just crazy, "why doesn't SE make the perfect phone" threads.
Posted by BobaFett
If any of u like to discuss the good old times instead of focusing the present, i may invite u to join the /// forum, where the "minority" try to keep to topic and concentrate to the real mission of esato, sharing infos, personal experiences and support each other at any kind of questions. Pls dont take this post as a kind of advertisement, more an invitation to a tiny island in the huge esato-sea, where u can take a short vacation or stay for longer time. From my point of view, esato is working great.
Posted by scotsboyuk
@Vlamm
Trust you to notice that!
@Boba
The spirit of the offer is appreciated of course, but Ericsson isn't for everyone.
Posted by angelwhorns29
Thank you! I have always searched the forums, well since christmas. And lately whenever i try to find an answer or anything remotely intellectual all i find is a bunch of personal rubish. And especially when im on my phone i cant find anything even close to what the topics are about.
Needless to say that organization is considered less than important. Everyone just posts whatever they want anywhere. So if you wanted to manually search for something you cant.
Thanks 4 this.
Posted by Vlammetje
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I think the 'good old days' of Esato have little to do with Ericsson, they have to do with (the sense of lost) community spirit.
Posted by vanquish
I fully agree. The Good old days was a community that helped each other, were kind to each other. In 2003, I can hardly remember the garbage thread and topics being locked, a topic being locked was a sure shock!
But now, it's just bollocks posted. I accept, yes, I have posted rubbish before but I tell you what annoys me, these Ericssonists! Obsessive! They think we should worship Ericsson! I wouldn't dare be that obsessive over a phone.
Scotsboyuk must be the only sane one left around
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Z800i![ This Message was edited by: vanquish on 2005-05-24 09:53 ]
Posted by BobaFett
I was talking about the community in the /// forum and i think the posts there fit the imaginations that scotty and the others miss now a days in esato.
Posted by scotsboyuk
@Vlamm & vanquish
To be fair to Boba he is somewhat correct about his Ericsson thread, it does at least maintain its integrity and those who post in it are at least interested in the subject. It doesn't spiral off at a wild tangent every five minutes either by the looks of it. Having said that Ericsson phones really don't interest me very much, so whilst it may have a good community spirit to it, it isn't the community spirit I'm looking for!
Boba's thread is how Esato usd to be, like minded people posting about a subject that interestes them. I didn't join Esato because I wanted to discuss cheese or which brand of toothpaste I use! Where has the phone community gone? There is an Esato community, but how related that is to mobile phones I'm not entirely sure. People say there is no problem, if there is no problem then there must be a lot of us experiencing some sort of mass hallucination that there is.
_________________
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC
[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2005-05-24 11:15 ]
[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2005-05-24 11:18 ]
Posted by Sir-SonyEricsson-man
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You got the point.. That is one of the reasons why i'm not around anymore that much as i was before..
Posted by Vlammetje
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But the real point in this thread is that the forum as a whole has lost that 'integrity' if I read you correctly. The solution therefore is not that the masses invade the one thread that may still have it, especially not those that may not have anything to say on the subject in that particular thread (ie: me!
) just for the beneift of experiencing a thread that is on topic even if the topic itself is of no interest to those people at all.
The solution lies in chaging behaviour on the rest of the forum (or die trying
) and leave the threads people have no interest in alone (and clean in the process, might I add)
Posted by scotsboyuk
@Vlamm
You have a way of really cutting through the crap! That is bang on!
A cause is never 'hopeless', as a wise man once said, " Never give in. Never give in. Never, never, never, never; in nothing, great or small, large or petty; never give in, except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force. Never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy."
That's a piece of advice that I try to live by in all situations, great or small.
Posted by sapporobaby
@Scotboy
This is one of the reasons, well the only reason, why many of my posts tend to be harsh and direct. I try to cut through the, "opppps is that in the user manual", or the "way are phones so expensive" posts, not to mention the ever popular, "where can I get something free" posts. Not all posts are this way, but they tend to be centered around a certain group that asks these same type of questions and dreams of the ever elevating post count. Let's get rid of the post count tally and see how the posting develops.
Posted by scotsboyuk
@sapporobaby
Hear! Hear! Have you noticed that those calling for the post count to be scrapped are primarily those with lots of posts?
Posted by sapporobaby
I thought I was the only one for the post count to be scrapped. Most of my posts are over in the Mac threads anyway. For real info, I go to other sites. Not much here anymore.
If they do cancel the counting of posts, I will PM with two names that will be the most upset.
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*edited on a Mac PowerBook, of course*
[ This Message was edited by: sapporobaby on 2005-05-24 13:59 ]
Posted by scotsboyuk
@sapporobaby
I have been calling for it to be scrapped for over a year! I believe I already have those names old boy.
Posted by sapporobaby
I think you do Old Bean. Am I correct in my assessment?
Posted by scotsboyuk
@sapporobaby
There are many members who do like to post for the sake of it, most are well intentioned, but for some reason become fixated with high post counts.
I have never really seen the great fascination myself and even as I sit here listneing to an otherise leidenschaftliche germanische Oper such as the Ride of the Valkyries I cannot get at all excited about having a high post count.
I have never put a bit of stock in the post count as a measure of a man (or woman), what is in the posts is far far more important. Something to reverse our current 'more posts is better' culture would be grand.
_________________
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC
[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2005-05-24 14:19 ]
Posted by dave_uk
I think I have to disagree on post counts, and in fact advocate, possibly, more means of deifferentiating members. Bearing in mind that one of the issues that has been bemoaned (and rightly so) is the dilution/erosion of the mobile content at Esato, I think that post counts are still an important way for new members to distinguish, and new members are the lifeblood of Esato. Avatars also have such a purpose on a forum that was, once upon a time, primarily about the discussion of mobile phone-related issues. Unfortunately, there will always be a few individuals who contribute virtually nothing while amassing a monstrous post count, but that can usually be established from the content of what they post (and where they post it), and the post count is still, therefore, a valid tool.
It is also important for one of the recent and, I believe, somewhat controversial developments of the Esato Market. This has grown enormously over the last year or so, and it appears to be the case that word is spreading and a number of new members are joining solely to trade. In these circumstances, the post count, along with Mik's All-Time Great Thread, are also invaluable tools for fraud prevention. The fact is that the majority of the top posters are amongst the most reliable sources of information and/or goods for trade on Esato, and the tenure and number of posts of members can help to provide a good indication of who to trust. There will always be exceptions to this but that does not, in itself, invalidate the system.
Posted by scotsboyuk
@dave
Judas!
Seriously though, I have to respectfully disagree with you. The post count merely serves to indicate, which members are most active, not how trustworthy they are or how knowledgeable they are.
I have long favoured a simple system of having the moderators giving certainmembers titles to indicate their knowledge in a particular area. Perhaps when a member gets a certain numbe rof good reports in Mik's thread themoderators could grant them a specialised avatar or title to indicate their status as a trustworthy seller and/or buyer?
We constantly hear people saying how we are all equal here, if that is so then we should base our opinions of each other on what we actually post, not how many posts we have. I once posted something on another forum and was told by someone who disagreed with me that I knew nothing because I had a low post count! That is exactly the sort of thing I hate to see on Esato.
The post count serves no purpose other than to differentiate members based on how active they are. It doesn't even do that well because not all forums are included. Why? Because so much tosh is posted that to include those forums would mean that those with the highest post counts were the members who post the most rubbish! Instead of having a simple system to measure activity it has had to be modifiec due to such behaviour. Not only that, but the 500 post limit effectively cuts off any sort of recognition of truely high posters as being more active.
Useless! Redundant! Ineffective! Scrap it!
_________________
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC
[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2005-05-24 15:32 ]
Posted by GOwin
Let's see, let me try my hand on this.
What's wrong with Esato?
We can only say that something is wrong, if we have defined a standard by which it will be judged against - something "right."
And as far as I know, we have no such thing for Esato.
We all have our own ideas of how we like Esato to be but then, that's our opinion, and we are entitled to those.
Esato, as a community defines Esato. And for something that continues to grow daily, it really is difficult to define Esato in concrete terms.
Do any of you remember about the story of the Elephant and the blind men?
It's all a matter of perception. Each member perceives Esato differently.
I have met people who never knew that Esato had a discussion board - they're quite happy with the downloadable goodies.
Or people who just stay in the regional forums.
Or people who just like to discuss about anything various topics with like-minded people.
Or people who'd like to get to the top posters list in esato.
And the list will go on.
Some people stay a while, some go as soon as they got whatever they want.
Some people leave, and never to return.
And some will drop by from time to time.
Esato doesn't mean the same for everyone.
Esato can neither be right or wrong. It's just is.
[ This Message was edited by: GOwin on 2005-05-24 15:17 ]
Posted by vanquish
It's not Esato it's the members.
Cutting through the crap is a fantastic way of keeping a forum alive!
Posted by dave_uk
@scotsboy
I would actually agree with something a bit more sophisticated in it's place, I must admit. My argument is that, unless there is something better to replace it, I would prefer it to stay on the basis that some indication is better than none, even if it has it's flaws, but I would be all in favour of the sort of system you suggest, although I sincerely doubt it will materialise.
@gowin
Why'd you have to spoil our whingeing session with...logic?!
Posted by scotsboyuk
@GOwin
Philosophical arguments are one thing, practicalities are another.
Just look at how many people are unhappy with Esato as she stands today. This isn't an attack on Esato, it is simple fact. Newer members bring their own styles and views and that is what has always happened, it is how Esato remains fresh and interesting and long may it continue!
However, the members who are already here deserve to be able to keep their views, styles and traditions. We have the right to keep our forum the way we like it whilst accomodating new members and ideas. To me that balance has gone, old and new should exist in harmony with one another.
What strikes me is that there is little appetite for, what in my view are, badly needed changes. Perhaps the powers that be need to sit up and take notice that all is not well in Esatoland and that many of the members want change and a less tosh filled and cynical forum. Why should we have to ignore tosh filled threads with bugger all to do with anything? Why should we have to turn a blind eye to it? Too long have we sat back and let too many good people leave because nothing was done! Too long have we simply ignored the problem and given platitudes that everyhting is fine. Perhaps it is time for change?
_________________
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC
[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2005-05-24 15:31 ]
Posted by whizkidd
Scrap the post count and bring in a new system where members are classified according to their field of "expertise". Trusted sellers get a "trusted seller" sign or a special avatar under their nick...and so on...
Posted by ewap8
I'm afraid I'll have to agree. I have been a member for ages (4 yrs?) but I have a very low post count. It is primarily because I don't post in junk threads. Most of the information needed is already there in the Archives, so you only need to search for it. Creating a new topic or threadjacking is not a good idea here.
Getting rid of the post count would ensure people don't post 'for the sake of it'.
Just my 2 cents...
Posted by sapporobaby
How about setting a lower limit to posts. Something where people have to create a full thought and not have posts that contain "yes", or "wow", or such drivel? This would cut down on many of the one word posts that are floating around out there.
Posted by whizkidd
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On 2005-05-24 17:47:27, ewap8 wrote: Most of the information needed is already there in the Archives, so you only need to search for it. Creating a new topic or threadjacking is not a good idea here. |