Posted by scotsboyuk
Some of you may be reminded of Fijbert by this thread, but I think the following has to be said ...
What has Esato come to? Everywhere I look I see hordes of people doing nothing but irritating the life out of each other or complaining about the most stupid of things. How many threads does it actually take to ask a question? By the looks of things it would seem that the answer is 'several'. How many innane threads about what someone ate for breakfast whilst using their mobile abroad do we need?
Let us also examine the perpetrators of these banal brain destroyers ...
The Serial Poster: This annoying fellow posts just for the sake of posting. Whether he is actually interested in a thread or not he will often make a post, usually a one word post or perhaps a smilie. Sometimes the serial poster will start his own thread, usually it has no real purpose other than to let him post.
Serial posters are often concerned with their post count, desperately seeking to get it above the five hundred mark only to then realise that there are people who have thousands. This simply spurs the serial poster onwards in an effort to post more.
The Obsessive Ericsson Fanatic: These annoying characters are akin to fundamentalist Christians due to their annoying habit of constantly telling everyone how good Ericsson are. Whether you are discussing the weather or your pet dog they will manage to find a way to slip Ericsson into the conversation.
An annoying habit of these characters is to simply refuse to listen when someone points out that Ericsson weren't perfect, often they will simply reiterate a particular Ericsson mantra e.g. Invented Bluetooth. Also watch out for them ignoring you whenever the fact that Ericsson were terrible at actually getting people to buy their handsets is mentioned and watch them try to ignore or gloss over the fact that Ericsson needed Sony to save them.
The Political Activist: These people believe that it is their mission to inform everyone of everything going on in the world that they consider to be unjust. The more extreme variety take on causes and become blinded to the fact that a.) they may be wrong and b.) some people don't really care about their causes.
Often you will see them posting out of context, deliberately misquoting or misrepresenting facts so as to further their own agenda. Why they don't post in political forums remains a mystery, but would be more sensible.
A word of warning, some of these characters will become aggressive or highly defensive when their views are challenged by anyone who a.) disagrees with their viewpoint or b.) is half-sane.
The Comedian: These are the people that think they are hystericaly funny, yet aren't really. Constantly cracking pathetic jokes and posting numerous smilies in response to their own posts they are to be pitied more than anything else.
The Sycophant: These are people who latch onto other members like celebrities. Often posting in agreement to everything their chosen 'celebrity' posts they would probably post a grinning msilie of agreement if their celebrity posted calling them a urine stain. They thrive of thir chosen 'celebrity' posting a reply to them or occassionaly posting something that indicates that they speak to their 'celebrity' 'off-forum' e.g. through a messeging client.
The Attention Seeker: These are the people who deliberately post controversial threads to gain attention. Why else would someone post threads extolling the virtues of Nokia on a SE fan forum? Why else would someone post threads deliberately criticisng SE to the point of being insulting? These characters typically don't have much to say for themselves aside from repeating certain arguments that are often either unsubstantiated or highly subjective.
The Complainer: These people have a bit of a chip on their shoulder. They will complain about everything and anything, usually extremely petty matters, which really ar eof very little importance. Good examples of this sort of behaviour are the numerous threads bemoaning a particular feature on their mobile, even though the handset had been on sale for months before thye bought it and they had read all about the problem in countless other threads.
These people often complain about things as if major corporations only have them to cater for e.g. Why doesn;t SE include [insert highly specialised feature]?
Esato is full of these sort of people and their tosh. A huge flow of Rubbish sweeps across Esato, tainting nay half-decent threads it comes into contact with.
I often wonder if some of thes epeople see a thread and think to themselves "What's this? A thread that makes sense! Better post something stupid to get it locked."
Why do people threadjack? I can accept the odd tangential funny comment, but why do some feel the need to post something completely unrelated to the the subject of a thread?
Where is the Esato that I know and love? Can she dig herself out of the Rubbish heap that has been cast upon her?
_________________
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC
[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2005-05-22 04:16 ]
Posted by FutureDesign
Im the first one :-) and abit of the comedian :-D
Posted by Oogamous
hmmm... i really can't picture what category i'd fall in... but yeah, esato may not be the esato it started out to be.. but if i remember correctly i had read a post by laffen stating that it's a part of evolution of any large forum... a normal tendency for members, especially the older ones, to begin deviating from exclusively posting mobile phone related questions to posting more personal and general posts for the sole purpose of enjoying themselves which may be perceived as crap by others... so as the number of members spiral high and there is collective 'aging' of the newer members, the number of irrelevant threads would definitely continue to rise... and a newbie has a right to ask a question no matter how many times it has been repeated before- thereby irritating the older ones a bit and adding to the perception of increasing crap lying around in a previously uncrappy forum in the eyes of veterans.. so scotty, i don't think u can count upon the older esato coming back.. :-)
Posted by scotsboyuk
@Oogamous
Bingo! Although I would disagree about posting questions that have already been asked, especially the ones that have been asked ad nauseum!
Posted by Ayush
I think oog is correct to the extent of the first point
Posted by scotsboyuk
@Ayush
To a certain extent. Ther is nothing wrong in posting non-mobile threads, but not some of the drivel that is reguarly posted ...
Posted by Ayush
@scot i agree @future shut the **** up!
Posted by OluYom
In my opinion, the Complainers and the Attention Seekers are the most pathetic.
Complaainers: A simple bit of research before buying the phone is just common sense. And it does seem that these set of people have no idea what the word 'contentment' means. In phoneland, it means: Get what you love, and love what you get'.
The Attention Seekers: A really bad case of identity crisis and insecurity. Why would someone's world revolve around trying to be the centre-point of every wheel?
I can stand the Comedians. They add some zest to these pages so long as they keep within reasonable limits
The Political Activists? I won't even go there, or they''ll soon arrive here on this thread and get it locked!
But there's hope for Esato. Hopefully.
Posted by satan89
I agree with oog too . @ future design i think you come under serial poster ...
Posted by govigov
Yeah, there are a lot of rubbish threads but in between them there are threads with genuine problems too. They somehow get ignored. Moreover threads that praise a particular phone are a lot like for k750, but as soon as they get it in their hands, their view point is gonna change to the opposite. And complaining threads is gonna start. But i guess that is all a part of being in the forum business.
Posted by OluYom
A lot of people just need to learn to make valid complaints, really. The compulsive complainers complain whether it rains, snows or is sunny.
I notice that there are quite a number of people still giving attention to people with serious needs, as well as discussing real issues. Then there are a few threads that are quite informative in content. These keep me coming back.
Besides those, I am not too much into non-phone related threads. Once in a red moon, maybe.
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[ This Message was edited by: AYA on 2005-05-22 05:42 ]
Posted by Residentevil
It is the complainer that drives me up the wall. I just could choke the living daylight out of them.
Posted by obsixx
@evil, agreed.
Posted by scotsboyuk
@AYA
There are so many threads posted by people asking for help with a problem that don't get many replies; I wonder how many of them were because they were buried under the mountain of tosh so that people who could have helped didn't notice them?
Posted by masseur
@scotsboyuk, you manage to put into words, very fine words, the thoughts that I have had since late last year and if I am totally honest it is a large part of my reasons for wishing to give up moderating here a few months back.
As someone who reads most posts I just found myself getting more and more infuriated and frustrated by all this and thats no frame of mind to be in when trying to be impartial and fair in dealing with situations
I have tried PMing a few of the main members I consider to be participating in the described practices there is generally no defined rules being broken and though some initial note is taken it doesn't take long for them to revert to their previous ways.
The problem is that if we moderators take action against such members we get called dictatorial (I certainly have a couple of times already) and if we don't, well then we get these threads and the problems described herein.
I guess one problem with Esato's popularity is that it is easily found in google searches and so attracts members from all countries, ages, ethnic backgrounds, mental states, and any other categories you would care to mention and the quality level in posting is a constantly changing xxxxxx
We see many cycles too, from product rumours to official announcement to impatience in obtaining the new products to excitement when they are released to dissapointment when bugs are found then onto impatience again waiting for the next rumours and so the cycle goes back to the rumours
in between these steps we see lulls where suddenly Esato gets filled with garbage and non mobile related topics and these can be about all varieties of topics and you have to sometimes wonder if some members are just sitting there dreaming up stuff to post no matter what
we get 60 new members each day on average, many just passing by because they found us on google and need a question answered quickly. Many probably have not even been forum members before and though we present the forum rules on signup suggesting to familiarise themselves with the forum, use the search, etiquette etc they are in such a rush to get their question answered they just don't have time to read all that and this is a fact of life in many things we do.
Fortunately many of these members enjoy what they see and become core regular members and thus realise their early mistakes but with such a high turnover of members its always going to be an issue
in summary, I guess Esato is somewhat a victim of its own success and I don't see how such a fluid site can really be controlled or moderated in anyway other than how it is now to change these things that are not breaking established forum rules without the pendulum swinging the other way and members being upset with moderators for being too invasive
as always, we welcome any sensible and constructive suggestions to make Esato a happier and friendlier place but at the end of the day the responsibility is largely with the members themselves
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[ This Message was edited by: masseur on 2005-05-22 06:50 ]
Posted by Oogamous
Well said masseur.
Posted by scotsboyuk
@masseur
Far from calling the moderators dictatorial I think you are probably well aware of my thoughts on the matter!
I agree with your points, but I would like to add that something can be done about it. Now I shall probably sound like an old fogey now, but I remember when Esato used to be about mobile phones and mostly SE phones at that! The odd thread about non-mobile related matters was fine and taken in a good light because we weren't swamped with them.
I would very much welcome a stronger stance from the moderators. I don't say that imply criticism of current policy, just that I think a stronger line is needed.
I ask myself where my friends from Esato are and I have to answer that many of them are gone; pachy, MixiN, fijbert, bacanito, MaThIbUs, Little Jon, scouser_75, Spondas, etc. (I just realised how much I miss those people as I read through my pms, especially pachy.) Why have those people left? I have asked many people this question and there seems to be a general consensus amongst many that they felt Esato had drifted away from what it was supposed to be i.e. a Sony Ericsson mobile phone forum. Many are put off by the peurile threads on politics or religion or endless petty arguments over the silliest of things.
Gone are the days of healthy debates where people didn't take offence if you said 'hello' to them! Where are the threads of old discussing new features without the heavy sarcasm and cynicism we see today? Where are the wonderful threads helping people with their problems that didn't turn into petty flame wars because someone ommitted a small (irrelevant) point? Where are the threads appreciating SE (it is still a SE fan forum isn't it?)? Where are the threads where one wasn't attacked and/or ridiculed for defending SE (again I thought this was a fan forum!)?
I say it's high time we had a return to the way things used to be!
Posted by masseur
unfortunately, and without being specific, one or two of the names you mention are members who I would have put into some of the categories you list in your opening post so what is good for you is not neccessarily good for me or another member and therein lies the problem on Esato with so many members
attempting to make Esato something it isn't so that members who are fondly remembered will remain or return is not a realistic goal IMHO and I wonder how much different Esato would be today if the mentioned members were still here? I personally doubt there would be much that was different. People come, people go and thats the nature of a large forum such as this. One day you and I wil also not be here for whatever reasons we might have and if that reason is that Esato no longer suits our needs then that is as good a reason as any but not a reason to try to make Esato something it is not.
Of course I'd also like to see less antagonism, less agressive attitude, less posting just for the sake of it etc but these will never be eradicated. Its also worth mentioning that I receive very few complaints from members about other members suggesting that many issues are taken to PM etc to resolve between the members themselves
finally, the suggestion of moderators taking a stronger stance is fine but in what way? I have scratched my head long and hard trying to figure this one out. do we go around deleting posts that we consider not fitting for the thread for whatever reason and constantly sending PMs to such members? do we apply bans if our advice to such members is not heeded? we average 1500 posts a day and thats just in mobile related threads so this task would be quite enormous. I'd be interested to hear what specifically you might suggest in regards to taking a stronger stance?
Posted by scotsboyuk
I understand that some of those people I mentioned would quite likely fit into some of the categories I defined, but that wasn't my point. My point was that many people who have left Esato have left, not because they didn't like SE or Esato anymore, but because they felt that Esato had become something it wasn't supposed to be.
As for taking a stronge rline I have several suggestions, most of which are probably not going to be very popular, but then I don't really care. I have never been interested in popularity contests and I'm sure most people will know that I mean it when I say that I couldn't care less what people think of me. With that in mind I would suggest the following:
1.) More moderators! A forum this size needs more than the current moderator levels in my opinion. I understand that members have a part to play too, in reporting anything that breaks the rules, etc. However, this isn't really a substitute for a fully fledged moderator and I think Esato would be better served if there were more moderators. I am not going to bother justifying the fact that I am not intending this as a criticism of the current moderators because I am sick of people assuming that such things are. I would also like to point out before some smart Alec makes the charge, that I am not thinking of myself for a moderator position. I can think of a number of people who would make fine moderators and who I would nominate for the post before myself.
2.) This isn't a democracy! Lock, move, delete and archive threads that are bothersome and annoying to other members. If a thread is going offtopic warn the people involved and if they don't heed the advice lock it. Threads carry on too long like that.
3.) Delete the really silly threads that are locked, it just throws up more rubbish when one uses the search.
4.) An active campaign against serial posters who contribute bugger all to any discussion apart from gormless smilies and aggravating mono-syllabic senetences. Getting rid of the post count would probably be a good idea to help such a campaign. (Incidentally I have the 9th highest post count so I would be one of the one's 'losing out', if you can even say that with a straight face, from scrapping the post count.)
5.) In conjunction with point 1, individual forums could be given moderators who would be able to devote more time to each forum with 'super moderators' taking overall charge of moderating.
6.) Merge the 'Mobile Free Zone' and the 'General' forums, why have two forums full on non-mobile related threads when one would focus it all in one place?
7.) Allow people to create threads in the Rubbish forum, that way the real tosh might be created there more often than in other forums. This would hopefully free up the merged Mobile Free\General forum for relatively sensible non-mobile threads.
8.) Institute a trial period for politico-religious threads. I am fed up with seeing innane arguments over religion or politics; if people can discuss either subject without petty flaming then fine, if they can't then ban such discussions. It has worked well on another forum I am a member of, there is no reason it can't work here. As for people's right to freedom of speech, they can post about politics and religion on a dedicated forum; I know many people who would rather not have what is supposed to be a mobile phone forum burdened with this sort of thing. As I said, Esato isn't a democracy!
9.) An aggressive policy on merging threads that are basically dealing with the same thing, either that or faster redirects, locks and deletions of such threads.
10.) An active campaign to promote the naming of threads. I know that some of the moderators do this already, but if a member does name their thread in a way that is misleading (as we all know this happens frequently) then a moderator should just change it to something appropriate. Again this isn't a democracy.
11.) A user ranking system to be administered by the moderators. This would involve granting those members who have specialised knowledge a short title indicating their specialised field. This would then allow other members to quickly identify those people who may be best suited to help them should replies via threads not be forthcoming.
12.) The search should be modified to allow users to exclude the non-mobile forums (especially the Rubbish Forum!) from searches. I know you can find a needle in a haystack using the search feature masseur
, but many cannot. It would be useful to be able to search through all the mobile forums at once, or a combination thereof, without turning up results that include half the Rubbish forum!
_________________
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC
[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2005-05-22 08:38 ]
Posted by whizkidd
Scots, afaik we can already create a new thread in the garbage section....albeit on wap! I have created quite a few threads in the garbage section without a helping hand by the mods.
. Also i agree with you that there needs to be more moderators. I've seen quite a few forums where there are seperate mods for each section! It would only help current mods who are doing their best..but a forum as big as esato needs more people to keep things under control.
Posted by BobaFett
Why more mods? Instead of it WE have to behave more constructive and wise according what and where we post imo. We arent kids...
Posted by mustafabay
I agree with the call for more mods, M-R has more mods and they have a lot less members. In addition to the fact they don't have as many non-mobile topics.
Posted by Cycovision
Whilst I agree to a great extent with Scots and Masseur, I think it's a subject that we have to be careful on. The question here is, 'just how serious do you want esato to be?'
I probably shouldn't name names here but I used to contibute heavily to Experts-Exchange. They are supposedly very intollerent of off-topic discussion, joke threads etc. which is the main reason why they have the points system for rewarding accepted answers. The site is almost purely a question and answer forum, not really a place for like-minded people to chat together and help others when asked.
What happens there? All that happens now is that the 'experts' spend more of their time slagging each other off and trying to be the cleverest person on there than they do actually suggesting answers to peoples' problems. They sneer at 'newbie' questions more than some people do on here, and very often people go away from there without any help at all, just a thread-full of insults. Very often indeed.
All I'm saying is that even if something was done to stop all of the silliness on Esato, it wouldn't necessarily make Esato a better place. I refuse to accept that newbie questions get overlooked because they're hidden in a sea of garbage, anyone who's been around esato for any length of time can scan the latest posts or esato bar pages and pick out the wheat from the chaff just by looking at the thread titles.
I think the the most effective course of action would be, as Scots has already suggested, to get rid of the post count and 'faded avatars' system. It's meaningless, and it definately contributes to garbage posting just to get the post count up.
I don't think that some members should be singled out in some way for having specialist knowledge though. That would be the first step on the path towards an Experts-Exchange style system and it really doesn't work, believe me. I was consistently in the 'top ten experts' list in two different sections on EE but it didn't make people try to 'find' me nor any of the others in the lists to get help more quickly. It just doesn't work like that.
So yes, let's try to cut out the crap a bit but please don't make Esato too serious or it could end up being like a mini Experts-Exchange, heaven forbid!
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'He who laughs last, laughs longest. Or didn't get the joke...'
[ This Message was edited by: Cycovision on 2005-05-22 12:15 ]
Posted by Davo_169
i think it all started when i joined
.....i rest my case
Posted by *Jojo*
I totally agree with Scotsbrite and Masseur here! Though my very SHORT and SIMPLE comment is that: With or without US all here, Esato will LIVE as it was before (unless Laffen will file for bankruptcy here, just like that of the 'dire strait' issue it had in 2002 or was it in 2003?
) Old ones will go as the newcomers will fill in the vacancy it left . . . . that's why there are the so-called, NEWBIES at Esato!
Posted by Davo_169
i found this interesting
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On 2005-05-22 13:16:29, some random guy that isnt me wrote:
i am a little disturbed about this new thread putting esato members into categories....last time i checked that was called discrimination and should be subject to the full extent of the law.....next we will see the serial posters keeping the celebrity posters as slaves to work their land on minimal pay.....
the complainers will be fighting with the political fanatics over land rights and the know it all will create the largest political power in the world and search for posts of mass disruption in the jokers territory....
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Posted by Aalpha001
Interesting...
The author of this thread also seems to have forgotten that he is himself not posting about mobile phones.
The funniest part of this thread is that those who are guilty of these accusations are here again. Pounding ferociously at their keyboards, and attempting to answer every post they could see with their eyes.
It's one of those things.
Posted by satan89
Alpha is right and i noticed it too. This thread does not have anything to do with phones. @ davo interesting quote , but i still think you wrote that stuff....
Posted by scotsboyuk
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No I have not forgotten. What exactly is your point? I haven't said people should not discuss non-mobile matters and discussing Esato itself is vitally important to the development of this forum.
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Again you seem to misread the situation. There is nothing wrong with people posting a lot and taking part in debate and contributing to discussions; it is when people post just for the sake of it that it becomes annoying.
Perhaps you would like to offer something other than glib replies to this debate? Whenever a sensible thread, discussing an important and/or interesting issue arises there always seem to be people who feel the need to comment in a smug way, why is it? Why not just try and participate in a reasoned and civil manner?
@Cycovision
I agree fully with you in saying that Esato's community spirit should be protected and I am definitely not in favour of banning non-mobile related discussion. What I would like to see is non-mobile discussion limited to one forum (plus the Rubbish forum) and fewer serial posters or people posting utter tosh.
When I first joined this forum people used to actually have fun in the mobile related threads. We could incoporate a joke or two without the thread veering wildly off-topic and being locked. Far from that level of general good will there seems to be a pervasive air of cynicism and petty minded squabbling throughout Esato.
@Boba
Members are not substitutes for moderators.
Posted by OluYom
I agree with a number of suggestions Scots made. More mods would be fine.
Let's scrap the post count for sure, and no, no special points for reasons someone else has given.
Having said that, any reforms implemented are not going to erase even 50 percent of Esato's rubbish, as human beings can be very unpredictable. But maybe it'll achieve something.
We obviously left out a category of people: the wise-cracking smart-asses, who hardly ever contribute anything useful but have taken it upon themselves to take snipes at every other person's posts.
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[ This Message was edited by: AYA on 2005-05-22 14:45 ]
Posted by masseur
I'm not convinced at all that throwing more moderators at this is really the solution and this idea suggests the problem is lack of moderators rather than the level of tolerance of the existing moderators assuming that we are fairly aware of what is going on in Esato
as we know, I am here quite alot and tranquil and GOwin is fairly visible while other moderators may not be posting so much and hence not visible but they are certainly doing their bit so I think there is plent of coverage. Therefore I suggest that the number of moderators is not the question but perhaps the limits of accepability vs freedom of speech that the moderators allow is the question
also its very hard to find reliable, relatively frequent and somewhat knowledgeable members with the right temprement to deal with all situations in a fair and unbiased way which is what laffen must look for when appointing moderators
The time to assign more moderators is when the current moderators can no longer deal with the volume of work required and certainly for the number of complaints I receive and threads I deal with this is not yet the case
I still go back to the statement that Esato is a dynamic and fluid environemnt with a constantly changing membership base where the current moderators do a good job to keep the worst out of Esato while still giving people a reasonable level of freedom to express themselves within fairly acceptable limits.
I'm sure there are quite a few members who would have received warnings from me, for example, about their posting style who could confirm that we do take this issue seriously but perhaps the balance I myself have strived for is a little more liberal that some would perfer?
I do agree that the search could be made better by providing a setting to exclude non mobile related forums and I also agree with some of the other points but I do feel that the thrust of this discussion is that more control is required over threads and I just don't agree that any more moderators or individual forum moderators etc will be effective if they also cause resentment from the members wishing to express their opinion while at the same time not excceeding the limits of forum rules.
Posted by bart
i'm considerd an oldie here. and in my time i've seen several of these threads. many good points are told here, but sadly hardly any of them is done.
laffen should take some time to think everything over, talk to the mods and some other members and try to restructure esato. alot of the things suggested here could make many members here feel more at home, or back at home.
Posted by mustafabay
One thing I'd like some of the funny guys here to know is, people on wap don't apretiate seeing posts of endless smilies that their phone can't display.
Posted by scotsboyuk
@masseur
Valid points, but I must disagree with you in some respects. I really do feel that more moderators would be a good idea. I don't think it is a question of the volume of work, but rather capacity. More moderators would mean more chances to weed out threadjacking; threads going wildly off-topic; utter nonsense, etc. It would allow the implementation of policies to restrict the more stupid posts and threads because there would be more manpower.
More moderators may also allow for an opportunity to try and tackle the 'mob culture' that exists here. I am fed up with seeing conformist hordes jumping on someone because everyone else is! I believe the 'Esato mob' actually has a bit of a reputation amongst other forums!
I suppose I would be something of a 'conservative' here in my wish to see a stricter policy adopted, but I really do think Esato would benefit immensely from a 'clean up'. Why can't we have some of the really old nonsensical threads deleted? Is there a need for them?
I realise that the moderators can only do so much as it is laffen who has the final say on policy decisions, but I would have to agree with bart in asking laffen to perhaps consider some of the points raised here. I am a great beleiver in the saying 'if it isn't broke, don't fix it', but I really do think Esato could do with an overhaul.
I don't really expect many, if any, of my suggestions to be taken up, but they are all relatively easy to implement. Some simple practical measures could go a long way to restoring the balanced and healthy forum that used to be.
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[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2005-05-22 16:44 ]
Posted by lastride
@mustaI agree with you there it takes 4eva to get 2 bottom of page all i can say to this topic is if you don't like the way Esato is well piss off i can see your point scott but tell me have you ever seen a forum that is as old as Esato that dosen't have all the garbage in it xbox is a good example u see about 20 threds asking about the x360 specs when they could all looked & seen there was a sticky stating the specs so no matter what forum u go to u are going to see crap on top of crapCheers!!
Posted by scotsboyuk
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A prime example of what is wrong with Esato! Instead of a civil response look what we get! Perhaps some people actually like Esato enough to want to make sure she runs well instead of simply giving up? No offence old boy, but you appear to have been in the door five minutes, perhaps you have been a lurker for longer, but rudeness really is not becoming.
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Actually yes I have. If you take a look at this you will see a forum that is actually a little older than Esato I believe with no where near the levels of tosh that we have here.
_________________
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC
[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2005-05-22 16:51 ]
Posted by Aalpha001
@ scotsboyuk Really. I have nothing personal against you. We are saying the same thing. Personally, I am not suprised at all because this can only the expected when a forum like Esato has grown so much. The way out is for the moderators to be a little stricter with whoever the rules, whatever the rules are. There should be law and other in any civil society. This is my opinion...
Posted by scotsboyuk
@Aalpha001
Hear! Hear! I quite agree with you old boy.
A firm hand at the tiller is needed.
Posted by Wuz
I've been visitng Esato daily since 2001, a member since 2002 and have donated to the site.
In my opinion, the site we helped save a few years back is the same entity as it is today. No fundamental differences at all.
Sure there are more members, sure sentiments sway back and forth (often dictated by the development stages of SE... ie rumour stage, excitment stage, its out stage, bugs then a lull again).
But I can tell you one thing for sure:-
We have had this exact thread many times over the years in different guises. This is nothing knew.
The site has got bigger and fewer members stand out. However, it still remains a place to discover and discuss.
Really, whats all the fuss about???
[ This Message was edited by: Wuz on 2005-05-22 17:54 ]
Posted by Wuz
...I would make one further point.
If members insist there is a problem, fell that things really must change - you are going about it all wrong. This whole thread is dedictaed to whY Esato isn't working. Surely, the sensible place to start is to define what it is you wish Esato to be.
Posted by batesie
I can see a little bit of this in you Scotsboy...
The Complainer: These people have a bit of a chip on their shoulder. They will complain about everything and anything, usually extremely petty matters, which really ar eof very little importance." (Well i can see that this IS of importance to you mate, thats why youve brought it up
)
But you talk about these things like theyre bad? without complaining how do we know when something is wrong, its just some people find it their mission if life to complain, and i'm not complaining about that!
I think the majority of people can see through the cr*p on esato and dont have a problem with it.
_________________
The more you know, the less you understand...
DNB RADIO!!!
[ This Message was edited by: batesie on 2005-05-22 18:19 ]
Posted by batesie
BTW not having a go at you scots, i can actually see you genuinely care about the future of this forum...
I appreciate that
Posted by scotsboyuk
@Wuz
One wonders why such threads keep appearing though ...
You are perfectly correct in what you say about this sort of thread having been created before, but I would argue that that is actually indicative of the importance of the matter to more than I.
@batesie
I think each of us has certain aspects of those categories I defined, within us. No one is perfect and we all have our little idiosincracies, but there comes a point when it goes beyond that.
Perhaps masseur is right, perhaps I am nostalgically seeking an Esato that has long since gone or perhaps never really existed at all. There seems to come a certain time for particular members when they realise how much Esato has changed for them. They realise that they no longer fit in as they once did and that they are foreign in their own land.
Posted by tranquil
I don't have much to add here. Masseur has said pretty much what can be said from Team Esato's side.
I wrote a metaphor on Esato a while back. I believe it fits in this topic as well:
Esato is like a ship; it goes from port to port, picks up new passengers and lets others off. In the open sea there might be rough weather sometimes but most of the time it's calm and comfortable.
Then we go back to a port where we have been before and pick up some new passengers, and some old, whilst some from the last journey decide to go ashore.
The journey continues with Laffen as captain, the mods as his closest coworkers, the "veterans" as crew to look after the passsengers and report up the ladder if anyone gets "drunk in the bar" and missbehaves. Then we eigther throw them over board or put them in a life boat in a rope behind the ship for a while to sober up.
The long time "crew" of this ship knows how it is and try to teach the new passengers where the bar is located, where the cabins are, where to do your shopping and where to join conferences and lessons of education.
The best thing about this ship is that there is no 1st, 2nd or 3rd class cabins. Everyone on the ship is equal and are treated the same way. The crew is there to guide not rule and the passengers are here to share and learn equal to the crew.
All in all Esato is a butifull cruice ship that needs it's crew and passengers to keep sailing and stay afloat.
I do want to add one litte thing though;
Moderators being stricter is a sensible issue. What has become a trend is a bit annoying actually; We lock a topic and a new topic asking why we did it pops up! "Why was that topic locked?" "Who locked that topic?" What sort of answer is expected to a question like that? "He, he... I locked it just for fun"?
How can we be stricter when everything we do is being questioned?
Posted by slattery69
i think esato goes through cycles ive been bored with it for a while so havent been coming as much but i keep an eye on it as its done this before then comes full circle and get interesting again.
i think with the k750 been out and a few bugs and some good experiences with it it will start to get lively again
Posted by marik
Certainly there are quite a few valid points made in this thread. Though I consider myself to be relatively new at esato I have seen far too much rubbish and injustice get into esato. So scotsboy i do see your points and i do believe they are valid but I am afraid there is very little we can do about it. You see we could delete posts and lock threads and so on but persons on this planet are very bad minded and are far too determined to stopped by these methods. We could suspend or ban members but who is goin to stop them from rejoining as someone else? So all in all esato will be stuck like this for a very long time. ( Indeed it is very much like friction. You cant get rid of it completely but you can reduce it by aplying some oil. And that is your point right scotyboy? That we need to apply more oil?)
Just one final point. Concerning the removal of post numbers I dont think that is a very good idea considering that I (and I'm sure quite a few other members) find it especially useful in the mobiles for sale section when we are determining whether or not a seller is trust worthy. cheers
Posted by scotsboyuk
@marik
You have no idea how right you actually are ...
Incidentally, Mik's excellent thread for rating sellers and buyers is worth a look if you haven't seen it.
Posted by Wuz
OK, fair enough scotsboyuk - your contributions to the site are well known and I don't for one minute question your motives - i believe you to have the site's very best interests at heart.
But why not do what I suggested, define what you believe the ethos of the site should be. Only then can you tell where it is that things need changing.
Posted by scotsboyuk
@Wuz
Simple: a mobile phone forum dedicated to SE phones that also incorporates other brands and non-mobile related discussions as a sideline. A forum where people are free to request help or express opinions without being harangued by a mob. A forum where threads don't degenerate into petty squabbling on a frequent basis. A forum where members don't constantly question the moderator's actions. A forum where people don't feel the need to make posts just for the sake of posting. A forum where rubbish and tosh doesn't rule the day.
In short, a Sony Ericsson mobile phone forum with a general chat area, not a general chat forum with a Sony Ericsson mobile phone area!
Posted by batesie
Scots, i think that sums it up nicely...