Posted by goldenface
Looks like the SE gang have a head start as Motorolas effort is having trouble getting off the ground.
CeBIT 2005 -- Motorola announced it plans to ship several phones with iTunes, the popular music jukebox software from Apple computer. As expected, Motorola is having trouble getting carriers to get excited over this phone (Apple CEO Steve Jobs made sure that the phones get loaded via the computer, not over carrier data networks):
One model, the E790, was initially scheduled for a European launch this summer, but that introduction has been delayed after discussions with operators
At least one of the iTunes phones should be able to store 8-hours of music. Earlier this month Sony Ericsson announced its first "Walkman" phone, the W800i, with 512MB of memory.
The Motorla ROKR should be shown off for the first time later this month at M3, a music conference in Miami, FL.
[ This Message was edited by: goldenface on 2005-03-10 11:59 ]
Posted by KrisUK
Not surprised Motorola is having trouble. They make terrible phones in my opinion after using a lot of them.
Posted by 701
User interface is terrible,phones r ok.
Posted by goldenface
Bad move by Moto & iTunes. Networks will not take on these phones as they will make less money on them.
_________________
K700i, S700i. T610. T300. J70e, T18s. K600 will be the phone that completes my collection.
.[ This Message was edited by: goldenface on 2005-03-12 12:29 ]
Posted by Davo_169
i remember wen it was E398 vs K700,
now it will be W800 vs "new moto phone"
Posted by vanquish
Nokia are also teaming up with Microsoft to get into the Music market big time. Watch out
!
Posted by goldenface
Yes but the Walkman brand is also a force to reckoned with.
Posted by bart
walkman is know among the people, but its fading into the background with all those MP-3 devices.
and i think that the name nokia has got more value then walkman.
it all depens on who gets out first, who can supply enough, who has the best price/quality and who does the best advertising.
Posted by goldenface
@Bart. The keyword here is Music, and I don't think Nokia is linked with "Music on the move" as much as the Walkman brand is, and I was really impressed with the way the W800 is packaged and marketed.
_________________
K700i, S700i. T610. T300. J70e, T18s. K600 will be the phone that completes my collection.
.[ This Message was edited by: goldenface on 2005-03-12 14:39 ]
Posted by bart
it is still a phone, and not an full MP-3 player.
people who really want music would buy an ipod.
music in a phone is nice, and should be seen as a competitor for smaller mp-3 players ipod mini style.
Posted by slattery69
i think walkman as a brand still carries some wieght certainly with my generation the 25+ will still remeber growing up with walkmans and discmans
thought i do take barts point on board this generation link music on the move with ipod.
to those people ipod says music on the move, for my generation it was walkman.
Posted by goldenface
Yeah but not everyone has an iPod. This year a new market is being created in Musicphones and I agree they will eat into Sales of music players.
Posted by bart
if you ask people what is an ipod or what is a walkman, i'm sure more people will know what an ipod is. walkman is fading in some people's mind, and the youngsters are growing up with ipod. also ipod is more in the news.
i agree that they'll take abit of marketshare from the small musicplayers, but they'll strike back.
Posted by BobaFett
take a look at the bang&olufsen mp3 player. now, thats what i call design, quality and sound. gonna get one asap.
Posted by bart
i know bang & olufsen but i don't think many people know they've got an mp-3 player. not even i knew that.
Posted by scotsboyuk
@bart
Your point is valid, but I think you are failing to take account of two very important points; the Sony factor and the fact that people may prefer to pay less for a single device than pay more for two seperate devices.
Sony are renowned for their quality and people do associate Walkman with Sony. Sony is a very powerful brand and people like to be seen with good brands.
People generally prefer to carry as few gadgets as possible, hence a single gadget that allows them to listen to music and make phone calls/send texts is going to be very popular indeed.
Posted by bart
sony isn't SE. people still link SE more to ericsson then to sony.
an ipod mini costs much less and you get 2G.
while the W800 costs more (true you get a phone and cam and much more) but only 512MB (+ internal memory). if you would buy a 2G MSD pro then it would cost 2-3 times as much as an ipod mini.
some people don't want to spend that much money. they would rather have a cheaper phone and an ipod mini.
thats how most people will see.
but most of us see it difirent, i myself am going for the W800 and getting a 2G MSD pro, but then again we are the pioneers of new technolgy right
Posted by goldenface
@Bart I don't think the smaller musicplayer manufacturers will be able to strike back. How? Will they now incorporate mobile phones into their devices? I think they might have missed the boat on that one. .
[ This Message was edited by: Goldenface on 2005-03-12 15:30 ]
Posted by slattery69
i think alot will depend on the quality of the mp3 player and the software, if they are both good then i think it will sell to the ipod crowd,
the sony mp3 player (cant remeber the number but the ipod rival one) sounds good on par with the ipod but the software for transfer is very slow and laboured in comparision to itunes.
but if se get the sound and software right then i think it would be popular as scotsboy said its one device rather than 3 (if you inculde the camera)
Posted by scotsboyuk
Your are missing my point, I am speaking of the average Joe in the street. Most people have fifty or maybe even a hundred pieces of music that they listen to, certainly they have no real need for 2 GB worth of music.
We should perhaps try and be practical about these issues. A 2GB iPod is all very well, but if the average Joe has the chance to have a single device that lets him listen to a few albums; take good quality pictures; surf the web and make and receive callstexts then he is quite likely to go for that.
I very much disagree with you regarding the association of Sony with Sony Ericsson, I believe that customers very much associate the two. Sony is a very powerful brand name and people see that when they see Sony Ericsson, it is there in the title. People then associate that title with the Sony name, which stands for high quality.
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"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC
[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2005-03-12 15:28 ]
Posted by BobaFett
too much sony influence in the mob fones and now this walkman... well, i am not happy for it...
Posted by vanquish
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i FULLY agree!
Posted by bart
@goldenface: manufactures of mp-3 devices ( talking about devices like ipod mini) will strike back. they'll drop the price or give more memory, add color screens so that you can store photo's and even video files (abit like the ipod photo devices). Games will folow, aswill wifi. those mp-3 devices will become media devices.
@scotsboyuk: from what i hear/read the link of SE to ericsson is bigger amoung the average Joe in the street.
Posted by scotsboyuk
@bart
I know you are an Ericsson fan and I can respect the idea that Ericsson are a better known brand name in the world of mobile phones than Sony. However, Sony are a much bigger brand than Ericsson and they have a huge deal of influence over what people by by the strength of their brand alone.
If someone is looking to buy a new mobile phone and see that it has a Sony Walkman music player built in they are then less likely to go out and buy an iPod.
Dedicated music players might very well have games added; video capability, etc, but you can already get that with a mobile phone. Unless music player manufacturers want to include mobile phone capabilities int heir products, in which case they stop being music players, the point is moot.
If someone has the option to carry two or three different devices or one that will serve all three purposes perfectly well then he is probably going to choose the latter option.
Convergeance may not be something that is liked by some people, but it is a fact and the sooner we get used to it the sooner we can influence the direction that it takes.
Posted by Residentevil
Motorola has not gotten that one right.
Posted by clank
I'll have to agree with scotsboyuk here...convergence is the key point in this discussion. I personally am(and i'm sure majority will be too) ready to compromise a bit on the music player and camera aspect if i can get all three devices rolled into one at a fraction of the cost of buying one each for its specific purpose. Infact its not possible to carry all 3 devices until you have really big pockets and nonetheless it'll feel like quite a mass you're dragging with you. Another thing which goes strongly in favour of music phones is the clutter they save you from...imagine listening to music on your ipod and suddenly the phone rings leaving you searching for the headset or frantically trying to tuck away the ipod headphones+the ipod itself so you can now negotiate the phone. Apart from total audiophiles i think everyone will appreciate the music phone solution more.
Posted by bart
yes i am an ericsson fan. but also an sony fan. all my other hardware is sony. and i've always like the name walkman.
but if a person is looking for a phone and wants it to be able to play music and stuff. then that person wants to spend alot of money and knows enough about phones to realize this. a normal person would get an ipod mini and an cheaper phone, cause the normal person doesn't know how powerfull phones have become.
Posted by scotsboyuk
@bart
I disagree with that last comment. I my opinion the ordinary Joe would more likely opt for a device like the W800 than buy an iPod and a mobile phone. The reason is simple, they have one device that does both things and it looks 'cool'.
People like gadgets, people like gadgets that do things they want and people like to be seen to have nice things. I'm not saying that the W800 is going to sweep away iPods and othe rmusic players, but it looks to be a step in that direction in my view.
We are approaching a point where people no longer have to carry two or three different devices around with them and if they can get all those devices in one at a lower cost then they will go for that single option. Would you buy a radio, a tape player and a CD player seperately or would you just buy an all-in-one device? If you had the option would you buy a television with an inbuilt digital receiver or two seperate devices?
Posted by jmcomms
We must also consider the W800 as being the first in a new line of Walkman phones - so with Samsung offering a 3G HDD in a phone, I think we know where Sony Ericsson are going to end up in the future.
At the moment, I carry a phone and iPod Shuffle - but when the weather improves and the winter jacket is consigned to the wardrobe for a few months (hopefully) and it's Jeans/T-Shirt time then I doubt I'll want to carry multiple devices.
Carrying a phone and separate camera is bad enough - so give me a decent camera, music player and phone (with email and so on) and I'll be very happy.
Mind you, I'd probably prefer it to be 3G too as I'm now getting quite used to web browsing/email download at high speed... but that will come too by Christmas!
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Jonathan Morris
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What Mobile magazine
www.whatmobile.net
[ This Message was edited by: jmcomms on 2005-03-12 20:34 ]
Posted by mustafabay
There's always the possibility that the average Joe will buy an ipod mini them a walkman phone and eventually find out that he doesn't need his ipod.
Posted by ants
Cant the K700i play iTunes with the R2AE033 firmware?
Posted by bart
@scotsboyuk: i would agree with you, but not yet. it is still to soon. many years ago there where also MP-3 phones (sony and samsung had ones) but they didn't sell cause nobody was really intrested/didn't want it/didn't know it excisted.
in a way the W800 is the first of its kind. people need to discover it. if it would become a global hype then i would admit that you were right about the ordinary Joe going for the best thing from day one.
but i doubt it.
its abit the same as the first camera phones, they took marketshare from small cams, but not the big ones (yet), and the people who bought them were people like us, and not the ordinary Joes.
in a year or so the ordinary joe will be aware of all this.
while sales of the W800 will be booming arround xmas 2005. but the sales of the W800 or cheaper better version arround xmas 2006 could be twices as big as 2005 sales, IF the SE walkman phones win the contest amoung the coolest music phone.
Posted by sapibobo
To ants : k700 is capable to play m4a (mp4) files that contains AAC in it- an audio format that iTunes fully supported. Dont be afraid to use iTunes as a converter as K7 will play the format from iTunes. And to me, mp4 (or m4a) is sound better than mp3.
Posted by ants
So the K7 fully supports apple iTunes?
[ This Message was edited by: ants on 2005-03-13 03:22 ]
Posted by goldenface
More woes for Moto. Now it has been pulled from Cebit and CTIA.
http://www.thestreet.com/_goo[....]=GOOGLEN&cm_cat=FREE&cm_ite=NA
And according to this guy, Musicphones will be bigger than Cam phones.
http://www.thestreet.com/tech/scottmoritz/10200018.html
I would tend to agree wiht that Moritz guy in his article. Music phones might be even bigger than camphones. You see a lot more people listening to music when out and about than you do actually taking pictures with their Cameraphones.
I think they are gonna be massive.
[ This Message was edited by: goldenface on 2005-03-14 14:15 ]
Posted by slattery69
i agree 100% i think music phones will be far more popular than camera phones, i dont think they will stop putting cameras in phones as its a nice money spinner for the networks. but music is something most people enjoy and 1 device that can do music and calls/sms will be a big draw for people
Posted by goldenface
@slattery. And because networks make money from people downloading music from their own Wapsites they will be encouraging a wide range of choice for the consumer from musicphone manufacturers.
I am expecting big things from the manufacturers this year and next.
Posted by slattery69
yes very true goldenface.if the networks can earn a few quid from music then again they will be all for it
i wonder how often people use the camera on there phone ie once a week once a day
compared to how often people listen music on the move. i would willing give up a camera on my phone if it would improve the output of quality of music, i use the camera once in a blue moon
[ This Message was edited by: slattery69 on 2005-03-14 17:31 ]
Posted by goldenface
I am off to London over Easter for a long Weekend. The W800 would be ideal. MP3 player for the 2.5 hour train journey mp cam for pics. I don't I would give up the cam for music.
Pity about Moto pulling their models from the shows. More competition is best In my opinion.
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K700i, S700i. T610. T300. J70e, T18s. K600 will be the phone that completes my collection.
.[ This Message was edited by: goldenface on 2005-03-14 19:19 ]
Posted by m100
Ipods aren't much use if you do not have a computer.£400 upwards for a computer and £200 or more a year to go online is a lot of money for some people.People pay more for a ringtone or screensaver than for a track from itunes.Imagine how much money there is to be made when (that when not if) you can buy tracks and download it to your mobile in 3 minutes.
Posted by batesie
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And Siemens SL45 (my first mp3 playing phone)
Posted by goldenface
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I agree. This is one of the reasons why Motos models have been pulled.
Increasingly, we are seeing Networks having more influence over the manufacturers and after spending millions upgrading their networks to 2.5/3G, they desperately need to recoup some of this outlay and selling handsets to customers that don't allow music downloads must be so unattractive to them.
Which would mean them either being very expensive or redesigned to permit downloads.
_________________
K700i, S700i. T610. T300. J70e, T18s. K600 will be the phone that completes my collection.
.[ This Message was edited by: goldenface on 2005-03-15 12:13 ]
Posted by whentheleveebreaks
@ Golden face: I agree with what you are saying but i think the networks wont sell that much music. The reasons would be because of probably poor quality downloads (160kbps on i tunes music store for example is not that good in my opionion and i don think network music downloads are going to be much better than that). And secondly If you buy a song from itunes you can easily burn a cd so you can listen to it in your car, bathroom, wherever. Its easy but for your average punter being able to get the music from your phone onto a cd is pretty difficult (plus using bluetooth or the usb cable is slow).
Also i dont see the convergence thing between phones and music happening. Me personally if im listening to my iPod and my mobile rings i dont find it annoying having to take out my headphone to take the calll. I also dont mind having 2 different devices in my pockets as they are both pretty small, but thats me personally. Also memory (my iPod has 60gb hd of which its 40gb are used), a study somewhere (i'll see if i can find it) also says that the average person has 1000 songs on their portable mp3 players so phone memory would have to go up quite considerably. Also i want to use whatever headphones i chose not the unconfortable/rubbish sound quality headphone you currently get with phones.
Maybe they will be big but imho i dont see i happening (breaking into the mainstream like the iPod has) for a few years to come.
Posted by goldenface
@whentheleveebreaks
The networks will probably not sell as much music as itunes I agree with that. But if they sell as much music as people buy ringtones then they will be happy.
The Average Revenue Per User (ARPU) will increase dramatically for the networks if they can convince people that downloading music onto their devices is as easy as downloading ringtones, and cool.
It is a sector of the market that they will be eager to push and a good reason for networks to get the manufacturers to produce more advanced handsets with greater storage and a faster chip to do all the hardwork.
Now, I am not saying they will provide a serious challenge this year or even next, but with HDD slowly making its way onto mobile phones you can sort of see where this may be heading.
Posted by m100
You need a credit card for itunes and others,many people,and children don't have credit cards but can pay for tracks with their phone credit.How successful would ringtones and screensavers be if you could only pay by credit card and download on a PC?Record companies are not interested as they make more selling tracks on CD,why would they want to change CDs for something less profitable?Sony spent over ten years with the minidisc and failed but with the new SE mobiles I think will do better.
In western countries it may not be much but in many other countries a computer cost years of wages so thats a non starter.But with a mobile with MP3 they can bypass all that.
You don't even have to have the latest technology,get something like the cheap Nokia 3410 put a memory card slot,headphone socket and software and you got a MP3 player,it would hardly cost that much more.
Posted by goldenface
@m100 Good points all round.