Posted by absinthebri
What has faith got to do with Buddhism?
Posted by kimcheeboi
it could be any religion, such as hinduism, sun worship, or whatever. Certainly as a Buddhist you follow a certain process that you believe that will make you better; what else is that than faith?
There's no need to be pretentious here.
I read Hebrews 11, and although I must admit its very inspiring, how do i know that these examples are not merely stories?
yes, many people have died for their faiths, and I do not wish to discredit their sacrifices. However, does not faith lead to things like suicide bombings? People who believe that they have been divinely appointed to do "God's work?" Faith is, in essence blind. And being quite cynical, how am I to have this faith?
Posted by absinthebri
I take medicine from the doctor if I want to get better. That's trust, not faith. In buddhism I only need to do what is of benefit to me; I don't need to "believe" in anything. I am not being pretentious
This message was posted from a T68i
[ This Message was edited by: masseur on 2004-11-16 07:52 ]
Posted by kimcheeboi
whoopie our definitions of faith and trust are different.
Its too bad that people define these words differently, there is no 'one given' definition.
Now can we get back to the actual discussion?
Posted by PIANOSSO
I'm sure you didn't read what I've asked you to. So you keep use the word 'faith' wrongfully. That's it. Of course it's unreliable if you don't trust it. And you don't trust it because It's unreliable. It's circular. You can only get out of rounding you tail by getting over your cynical state of mind, having a very little real faith. A man is good according to the righteousness of his faith. Which you cannot understandcuz you're cynical towards the versatility of the bible.
Posted by tranquil
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Thank you.
Posted by kimcheeboi
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See? That's my point!
I want to know why I can trust the Bible and have faith in what it is when to me its very unreliable!
And i do think youre traveling in circles too, you continuously support the Bible with the Bible, but what i want to know is why the Bible is a valid document today, based upon the reasons i posted earlier in this thread.
And when you discuss faith, how is it different to be an adherent of a different religion? How come they are not just as right as you?
Posted by absinthebri
Trust is a learned experience. Faith, by its nature, is belief beyond experience.
Posted by kimcheeboi
can you please stop?!
Posted by PIANOSSO
@kim i don't support bible with bible. I support bible with my faith in the ONE who inspired it. How do i know It's right and true ? It works in my life and other's. As abs said, the power of experience.
Posted by BlackBauer24
Well, that took me awhile but i finally managed to read all of your posts, and i must say there has been some very interesting and diverse view points expressed on this topic so far, and i will certainly not add or take away from what anyone has said, after all i wanted this thread to be represented by all people whether Christian or not, as i believe this is the only way that we can try to understand and support one another. i have been both blessed and enlightend by all of your replies so far. i would just like to say one thing is certain and that is as a people, united we stand devided we fall. may God bless each and everyone on this forum. and keep the posts coming in.
Posted by absinthebri
BB, if you were talking to someone who knew nothing about Christianity, what one verse or chapter would you say best sums up what Christianity means to you? For me it's 1 Cor. 13.
Posted by BlackBauer24
@ absinthebri, maybe John chapter 11 verse 25, 26. Jesus said to her," I am the resurrection and the life. he who believes in me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 " And whoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?"
Posted by Neekos
Guys, I'd probably use John 3:16 (I know it's probably the most known verse!!) and/or Phillippians 2:6-8. What do you guys think?
BTW, I don't want to stir up any negative feelings on past posts, I would just like to say in light of the reason for this particular thread being started in the first place, that my faith, trust, belief etc in the Bible is based on what Jesus has done personally in my life and what I know to be true about the Bible. My experiences and Biblical understanding I have gained as a Christian have cemented my faith in God and the Bible, but have also helped me to see that not everything I first understood was necessarily correct. Were they bad things. No. They were issues that were not fundamental to my faith as a Christian. I certainly don't claim that I know everything, but I will always be open to a greater understanding from others, while that remains consistent with the Bible.
By the way guys, how would you rephrase those verses in a way that would be clearer to someone who is not a Christian? What version (when I say version, I am speaking gramatically!) do you use? NIV for me.
Posted by absinthebri
I prefer the NIV, too. I also use the KJV (I love the "poetry" of the language) and the Good News Bible (its simplicity is often refreshing).
Posted by Neekos
I agree with what you're saying there @abs.
When I started going to church, the only version that was really read was the KJV. Infact, reading any other version was kind of frowned upon!! I decided to try the NIV and found it absolutely brilliant. Like you say, the KJV is good for poetry (that Shakespeare feel!!), but I wanted to read in way that uses modern English, yet retains that beauty you get with some of the KJV old English.
Posted by fetzi
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kimcheeboi: How do we know that the Bible is reliable? |
Thatīs nearly the question of the disbelieving thomas (correct term?). For someone who is not a believing christian it is hard or nearly impossible to be persuaded or maybe even attracted by the book itself. Itīs the way of living it or communicating it to others what gives life to the belief - like in any other religion. There have always been teachers and scholars at any time. And for sure bible is not written to be taken litterally; but this doesnīt even count. What if all the books were burnt? Thereīs no need for a book but it has always been a good base - nevertheless too often abused for someoneīs personal interests..
@neekos: what stands NIV and KJV for?
Posted by BlackBauer24
As the Bible asks us prove to all things, surely it would be naive of us to not also prove the validity of Bible, so this statement is directed to those which do not believe in God. How can one believe in something unless they have first sought to believe, to simply dismiss the Bible without first trying to explore its truths will not confirm God exsists or not, so one must try seeking for ones self before offering a constructive conclusion. There are many good books written, but only one that tells us about the nature of God and his intention for men and woman in order to inherit eternal salvation, the bible was written for all of mankind and its words challenge our lives and our earthly carnal desires, read it to understand the true nature of mankind and God, it just could change your life like it changed mine and so many others, or choose to reject it and miss a once in a life time opportunity, after all no one can force you its a decision you have to make for yourself.
Posted by Neekos
You're points are valid @fetzi and @BB24. It is difficult to persuade someone to take any notice of Bible if they don't really want to. Prejudices exist everywhere, even in the "church". Proving the Bible true to someone will never completely work, unless they are williing to take a step of faith. There are may arguments about the Bible being "edited" etc, but if examined closely we do see historically accuracies there. Even in areas of consistency, the Bible does stand true if read in context. Most of the problems that exist with differing views is based on inconsistent reading & application. The whole picture is always better that a part of it (except if you've ever seen me paint!!). Btu even after all that, it's how you apply it to you life that counts. I could go on, but I've got to leave work now. I'll catch up with you guys later. We can't all be like Blackbauer24 and spend all our working days on Esato!!
Posted by Neekos
@fetzi. Sorry matey, I didn't see your question before.
NIV stands for New International Version. KJV stands for King James Version.
I'm definitely going home now!!
Posted by BlackBauer24
@ Neekos, you need to work on those sermons mate, there way too short. you can get some good tips from Benny Hinn on the God channel tonight. :)
Posted by Sammy_boy
Some interesting and thought provoking points here!
I suppose if you take a lot of what's in the bible, it's an excellent template for a way to live, a lot of common sense tips for living. For example, sleeping about with other people too much. It's a personal choice imo if you want to do that, I don't think some supreme being is going to come and throw lightening bolts at you, but if you do you'll probably end up with a rather nasty disease and a reputation you don't really want. Cause and effect - but I'm going off topic here!
I guess I see the book as an anology of the human spirit in a way - with 'God' and 'Jesus' being yourself - and the Bible is basically telling you to be honest to yourself - worshipping 'false idols' like materialism and greed ultimately leads to you being unhappy in some way - even if you deny it to everyone else. i.e. you're not being honest with 'God' - yourself! I hope you get my meaning!
One last question/point - is it possible for a person who isn't 'religious' to live a good life? I try to live honestly and in a good way but don't believe in God. So if I live a good, honest life, do I still not go to Heaven as I'm a non-believer? Or is 'Heaven' an analogy of personal happiness, with 'Hell' being a state of personal sadness?
Posted by fetzi
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So if I live a good, honest life, do I still not go to Heaven as I'm a non-believer? Or is 'Heaven' an analogy of personal happiness, with 'Hell' being a state of personal sadness? |
Wonder if anybody REALLY knows this here or elsewhere.. I think I would bend my knee and call him/her/it god..
from the christian point, you should at least once believe in god; on the other hand thereīs the saying 'heaven on earth' which is supposed to be for good reason.
I do not know the answer - thatīs the point where belief begins..
Posted by PIANOSSO
@Sammy_boy
Yes you can live a good life, being a nice person, but isn't enough. Ignoring the existence of God is a sin, as Bible says. Also it says that "all people had sinned, being devoid of the God's eclat." In other words, human beings inherited the original sin, (Adam & Eve) so they (we) are sinner by default. Our good way of living our lifes becomes useless.
Posted by vanquish
BUSH IS NOT A CHRISTIAN
he has signed the most death warrants than any other person in the united states - how can you call that christian?
he is a maniac. if he pissed off, no more wars and terrorists - they all hate him. a fresh start!
i am sorry to sound so demanding, but it is what i strongly feel. praying does not make you a christian, its putting your faith in god and trusting in him and believing that jesus died, and then living your life with gods grace and power according to his will, but if you mess up, its about forgiveness.
i see this nowhere in mr bush's politics!
Posted by Sammy_boy
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I'm afraid I don't agree there! Why aren't humans capable of living good, honest lives without needing some 'mythical' being (possibly a more technically advanced alien/time traveller - someone living 2,000 years ago might think you a god if you showed them a TV, car, or a P900!
) telling them what to do.
I believe that heaven and hell is in our own hands. Rather than sitting on our behinds waiting for this 'all powerful' being to come and sort out all the messes we've gotten ourselves into, we need to do something ourselves as a species. The next step humanity can make is take control of our own destinies, think more as a group (or I daresay 'team'!) and not individualistically. It is only US, HUMAN BEINGS, that can make heaven become a reality. Sadly, many have become sidetracked and seduced by 'satanic' emotions like greed, materialism, selfishness, and religious fundamentalism. At the moment, we seem to be creating our own pretty realistic hell.
EDIT: @Blackbauer, my apolgies if I'm threadjacking or taking this thread away from your original aims, let me know if you want me to stop posting here!
_________________
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[ This Message was edited by: Sammy_boy on 2004-11-16 19:38 ]
Posted by Neekos
@Sammy_boy,
I hear what you are saying and even though it's not what I think, you are more than entitled to hold it. I suppose @Pianosso is speaking from a Christian and Biblical point of view which I agree with from a Christian perspective. How you see the Bible (in terms of how literal, symbolic, mixture of both etc) will determine your view of what it means. Without wishing to go into a long discussion of the Bible, we have to be aware of the different types of literature in the Bible (e.g. poetry, prose, apocalytpic, historical, epistle (letter), narrative, wisdom etc) to be able to get a better and clearer understanding of it (not that I'm saying that I understand everything!!!). It's not as alien or irrelevant as some people think (I'm not saying you were implying that @Sammy_boy)
Blessings,
Posted by Neekos
Guys and gals,
Does your faith determine what kind of films at the cinema you watch? Do you think it's wrong as a Christian to watch "Bad Boy 2" or "Man on Fire" for example, or should we only watch films like "Toy Story" or "Lord of the Rings"? What do you think? (especially you BB24!)
Posted by kimcheeboi
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I'm sorry, but Benny Hinn is one of the biggest hypocrites out there.
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/h01.html
I'm not saying that hes representative of Christianity as a whole, but hes definitely not a representative of what Christianity is supposed to stand for.
Unless theres a joke i missed...
Posted by BlackBauer24
@ kimcheeboi your right, it was supposed to be a joke just not very good one :) @ Neekos, you know i'm only teasing i eagerly await your response.
Posted by scotsboyuk
@Sammy_boy
His Holiness The Dalai Lama teaches us that it is better to be a good human being than it is to be a good religious person, a message I very much agree with with. In fact His Holiness recently advised people not to all rush out and become Buddhists; His Holiness said that if people found it too difficult to follow the practices of Buddhism they should just say "F**k it!".
_________________
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC
[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2004-11-16 23:55 ]
Posted by kimcheeboi
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I was thinking "YOU CANT POSSIBLY BE SERIOUS..."
has anyone actually watched his show? The 'miracle' parts are the best!
Posted by maddav
I've seen other shows with 'miracles' and they're all a bit lame, and (quite obviously) staged.
Televangelist: Are you blinded by Satan's evil?!?!????
Member of Crowd: N....Y..Yes
Posted by kimcheeboi
oh this guy literally pretneds to kock people out with the power of god...
a big joke really
Thank god most christians arent like televangelists
Posted by Neekos
@kimcheeboi
BB24's never been good at jokes. I keep telling him but he won't listen! I'm trying to help him but he's not a very good student. A bit like Yoda trying to teach the Tweenies to fight Darth Vader!! (Only joking BB24!).
Posted by kimcheeboi
should have added a
smiley and you would have had me slappin my knees
Posted by BlackBauer24
@ Neekos, you know i like to watch a good movie as much as you do, 241 orange wednesday this week mate? but seriously the majority of films we often watch at times happens to contain a high level of violence in them, and although i would like to think many of us on this forum are not violent people and wouldnt condone such behavior, do we? because there seems to be something compelling about watching violent or disturbing films which i cant seem to explain, other than admitting i enjoy many of them, but to answer your question is there anything wrong with watching certain types of films, i would have to say yes and no, it really all depends see the LOTR films were very violent but they are considered family films, while Harry (witchcraft) potter is aimed at kids! woah sorry to cut this short folks its 1:40am time i went to bed i'm up at 7:00am goodnight all.
Posted by Neekos
Good point @kimcheeboi. I don't use the smileys much, but I'll remember next time!
Posted by fetzi
Talking about films: what do you all think of 'Life of Brian'?
I admit I love this film - though I know a few people taking it as blashemical and a profanity. .
Posted by Sammy_boy
I think it's great- a very funny and satirical film!
It's a shame some of the religious establishment can't laugh at themselves- good on those that can!
Posted by BlackBauer24
@ Neekos i missed that last post about yoda teaching the tweenies to fight darth vader! very funny, have you always had such a colourful imagination or did you learn that from mr. Hinn last night?
Posted by Angelgirl
@Black; Greetings, May i know actually what this thread is all about?
Posted by fetzi
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what about going back to page 1 ?
Posted by BlackBauer24
@ Angelgirl, i wrote the first post basically to know how many esato members are actually Christians, and so that we could share our views on our Christianity and personal experiences, whether good or bad. However you dont have to be a Christian to to partcipate in the discussions. :)
Posted by fetzi
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I mean - nobody expected some kind of spanish inquisition |
Posted by BlackBauer24
Sorry have i missed something?
Posted by fetzi
@BB24: No, sure not
but as you were explaining to angelgirl that noone has to be a christian to take a part I felt free to use a famous saying of Monthy Python; therefore I wrote it as 'quote'..
sorry to confuse you..
Posted by BlackBauer24
@ fetzi no problem my friend, i'm alittle slow at times :)
Posted by blackspot
@BlackBauer24, do you think ignorance to the Bible is a hindrance towards salvation?
Posted by fetzi
Iīm not bb24, nevertheless: according to "the book" you donīt have to believe in itself - but at least at the end of your life you have to believe in god..