Posted by blackspot
It's probably hypothetical but I'm just curious of what will happen to those people who never got the chance to know about God or the Bible.
Posted by fetzi
but nearly all people all over the world in all times have believed in something "higher". That at least should make it
Well, thatīs the problem if you start analyzing, even beyond wonders.
I prefer the following: Christians (me too) do not believe (like Calvinists I presume) in pre-determination of life. But - if thereīs an omniscient god he HAS to know what was, is & will be. Consequence is - he knows what will happen to me - so my life is determined, isnīt it? Why should I then rack if my way is already laid out?
Had hours of very good discussions about this.. even with priests & atheists..
Posted by Sammy_boy
No one's life is predetermined imo, we make it what it is! I am the master of my own destiny (and I've made plenty of mistakes!!), as is everyone else in the world.
Again, humanity needs to take responsibility for their own actions and stop blaming or using deities (think I've spelt that right!) for excuses for why they've done or are doing something (e.g. Islamic suicide bombers, George Bush). I'd like to see people doing the right thing but of their own accord, not because 'God told me to'.
Posted by fetzi
Sorry mate, weīre riding different horses
I donīt believe in predetermination either - but if youīd like to read my post again, and if you were a christian too (or at least believing a nonpredeterminational blief) - wouldnīt that be a question to argue upon?
Posted by Sammy_boy
Sorry mate - misread your post slightly!
btw what do you mean by a 'nonpredeterminational belief'?
Posted by Neekos
Hi fetzi. I hope I've understood your post correctly. Please excuse me if I've misunderstood.
Wether God chooses to know or not, I think the issue here is that WE do actually determine OUR outcome. While I know I have a choice, I then have to decide to make the right choice.
** Added **
BTW fetzi, could you explain what you mean by the following:
according to "the book" you donīt have to believe in itself - but at least at the end of your life you have to believe in god..
Thanks
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[ This Message was edited by: Neekos on 2004-11-18 13:40 ]
Posted by fetzi
@sammy boy: I mean not to believe that my live is predetermined - did I exaggerate word-funding a bit too much?
@neekos
Think youīve understood; but I wonīt discuss it the way how I live - itīs more the interesting conflict in anylising. God is almighty - thatīs christian belief. If god is almighty, he must (or at least could) know everything. That encloses past and future. So he knows my future. If my future is known, it is some kind of predetermined. Thatīs only logical, isnīt it?
getting on the edge
(nevertheless - understanding god would mean beeing god)
**added **
@neekos: I do not know any saying in the bible that you have to believe in the bible itself - itīs just that you have to believe in god. And even 'sinners' will be forgiven if they start believing at the end of their lives..
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[ This Message was edited by: fetzi on 2004-11-18 13:47 ]
Posted by Neekos
@fetzi
I see where you are coming from. I wans't trying to personalise my answer to the way you live or anything. You do make an noteworthy comment that if we understood everthing then we would be God!! I feel that the issue with determination that you mention lies in the fact that we don't know what our outcome is. Even if God knows our end, we still detemrine it, and its because of the awesomeness of God (IMO) that He is able to know the end of something that is determined by my actions and my free will. As I'm only human I'll have to leave the understanding of that to God!
Nice talking (posting!) with you all.
What do you think @Sammy_boy?
Posted by fetzi
sorry, wrong expression; by 'I' - I didnīt mean myself especially but I wanted to clearify the two ways of our discussion - the 'personal predetermination (or not)' on the one and the omnipotence on the other hand
Posted by Neekos
Thanks for the clarification @fetzi
(never done the smiley thing before!)
Posted by ADT0079
Religon is the root of all evil.But everyone has there choice.i choose not to beleive in god. Ps: why aren't dinosaures mentioned in the bible ? Or did they never really exist?
Posted by fetzi
What was to be expected from someone who calls the US the 'SUPREMACY'.
But I wonīt mislead this thread.
Nevertheless the bible is a book from humans for humans, containing important narrations from a specified period of time - long after the dinosaurs (and centuries before the funding of US, btw).
Posted by ADT0079
God created this world so dont you think he would have mentioned Something about a 40 plus foot animale Anyways i think the bible was wrote to have moral laws and a way to govern people.If you do beleive great. But no i can do right without religion. It seems to only create problems.
Posted by fetzi
'Guns donīt kill people - itīs people killing people'
God, I hate this f***ing saying. But nevertheless is comparable to religion. As long as you live it for yourself, and maybe also try to convince someone - but without any pressure - fine. But religion has
been always kind of 'opium for the masses' and therefore an easy way to gain power. And what people are willing to do to gain power is sufficiently known..
The only immovable statement of mine regarding religion is - there must be one/something. Whether you call it Allah, God, the spirit or else - doesnīt mind if youīre lucky with it (and donīt bother your fellow men).
But I really canīt understand people who do believe that thereīs nothing. I mean, back to big bang theory - where does it all come from?
Posted by absinthebri
| Quote: |
|
Why?
Posted by fetzi
| Quote: |
I mean, back to big bang theory - where does it all come from? |
Posted by absinthebri
Where does it all come from? Where will it all go? Where is it all now?
Posted by fetzi
I got an answer to this - do you?
Posted by absinthebri
No, I have no answer. It's never seemed a particularly relevant line of questioning to me.
Posted by fetzi
Then - in best missionary's tradition - what is life all about? and why bothering and for what on earth? Is there any other reason to live life itself than for having personal fun to you? Not that it is also a way, but I donīt like the thought of all beeing 'senseless' or only 'sensitive' as an end in itself..
Posted by absinthebri
There is no point to life; it's an accident.
Posted by Sammy_boy
@fetzi - I'm sad to say I don't really believe in anything! I wish I could believe we went somewhere when we died, except 6 foot under. Humans seem to have a hard time realising there might be nowhere at all after they die. I have a theory that people at the moment in Western countries are selfish and materialistic since the general decline in believing in something and going too much into the 'life is short, I'm going to do whatever I want regardless of who I trample on' approach. Until some sense of personal responsibility or sense of community returns, however that may be, I think this will continue.
I however do wish I did have some kind of faith or belief in the afterlife sometimes, was a bit less cynical.....
Posted by fetzi
if you are in an accident - why donīt you stop & clean up?
Who else would like to, say, be knocked over again and again if he could easily stop it? And why shouldnīt one?
Posted by absinthebri
I think I'm completely lost now. :-l
Posted by fetzi
@sammyboy: for me the afterlife is not so important; but it feels very cosy to have the imagination of someone beeing around you all the time - like a family youīll never lose..
In fact the western way of life is 'going down' in a religious meaning. But thatīs how it has always been - the better the people feel, the easier they donīt care about religion. But they return everytime when itīs going worse (remember 9/11).
Thatīs what I guess about 'opium for the masses': Without the intention to offense anybody, I do believe that the believers of islam would be way more 'relaxed' if they were as rich and spoilt as the western people.
I like the idea of comparing the holy war to the mediaevel crusades - only 600 years later..
Posted by BlackBauer24
Thanks for all your views and comments guys, but we are beginning to turn this thread into abit of a theological debate, what i originally set out for us to do was to create a thread where individuals could discuss how they deal with a wide range of situations as Christians and non-Christians. for instance have you experienced rejection from your friends or your family because of your Christian beliefs? have you had an influence on of your family or friends and therefore they too have come to know the Lord or have been inspired by your faith? or have been put of giving your life to the Lord as a result of personal difficulties or pressures. i'm also interested to know how one keeps their faith in 2004 with all that life throws your way. i admit that at times (many times infact) i find it increasingly hard to remain focused on my goal which is ultimately to inherit eternal life and dwell with the creator, even when surrounded by other Christian believers how do YOU stay focused!?
Posted by kimcheeboi
speaking of which...
I sometimes feel very alienated by Christians (remember 50* of the people i know are christians) who get all high and mighty on my and tell me im going to hell
specially those guys who knock at my door on saturday morning
Posted by OluYom
While I have enjoyed d debate, I have deliberately held back from joining in simply because this thread is clearly NOT for that.
If you are a christian and have experiences to share for the benefit of others of like faith, this is the place to share them. If you are not, just read the posts (and maybe also humour us if u will), but I sure want to see this thread stay on line.
Maybe we can start another thread to meet the need to debate religion - and that need is obviously pretty great, from the posts so far
@BlackBauer24: Staying focused is probably d greatest challenge we have in today's world. I stay focused by spending time with other believers. In those informal settings, we discuss our faith, the Bible and eternity. I particularly love to discuss issues like 'following God's plan and purpose'. Its just too easy to start doing our own thing. So we talk about that OFTEN. That helps me, and it has helped others around me.
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[ This Message was edited by: AYA on 2004-11-23 15:54 ]
Posted by ADT0079
@AYA You said "I particularly love to discuss issues like 'following God's plan and purpose"?????What is his purpose???????
My Theory is that we are made up of Energy And Energy never dies it tranfers to something whatever that may be i dont know,
And dont really care whatever happens after this well who knows and do you really Care???
Posted by OluYom
@ADT0079: I would love to discuss that, but not here. Create an appropriate thread and invite me over, and we can go in that line. We can name the new thread, "God and the rest of us" or "Do you believe in God?" or something. Then wwe can go do some intellectual exercise on spirituality there.
Expecting the thread and your invitation.
Posted by kimcheeboi
can we please just keep it to this thread
theres nothing wrong with asking questions and having intelligent discussion. And since this thread was started to be a christian thread why not have people who have questions feel free to ask?
Theres also no need to create a new thread for every christianity-related question we have
Posted by fetzi
I kindly invite anybody around here to follow the path..
//www.esato.com/board/viewtopic.php?topic=76195
___
sorry, invitation cancelled. private party
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[ This Message was edited by: fetzi on 2004-11-24 11:01 ]
[ This Message was edited by: fetzi on 2004-11-24 11:02 ]
Posted by OluYom
@kimcheeboi: A christian thread, yes; but for the PURPOSE of sharing our experiences to encourage one another. Nothing wrong in having another thread for the purposes "apologetics", hmn?
We can have as many 'christian threads' as allowed, good fellow.
Posted by TheReverend
I encourage all Christians participating in this thread to stay in and stay focused. I'm so pleased to see this forum. With my dear family we are close to a decision to shift churches due to distance problems. I covet your prayers for wisdom. God bless
Posted by london-uk
good luck...
Posted by fetzi
isnīt it a shame?
general discussion is cancelled; ok, this thread got an other topic.
new discussion thread is cancelled; 'there is already one'.
and this thread lost its teeth..
Posted by coolapostle
I think I am ready to share now... if this thread is still alive. I have been a born again christian for 11 years now. I think most of my challenges today are caused by the tough situation in my country today. It is tought trying to "do the Will" when all everything seems to be hard and tough.... IS ANYONE READING THIS????
Posted by absinthebri
I'm still reading...
Posted by SE Rules
Religion will cease within 20 years, technology will be the power controlling the human race, what good is an omnipresent being against a machine................The Matrix has you!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by fatreg
Religion will be around as long as people still have imaginations and are still able to beleive in something that there is no factual proof for.
as you can tell im not in the least bit religious, i do however think its admirable that people can believe,
fatreg
Posted by SE Rules
@Fatreg I completley agree, but belief in a higher power is only due to the human psychy's not being able to exist as a single being, it is dependant on a higher power....For example, employees work for an employer, but if there were no employer then there would be no purpose of the employees......
Religion gives purpose to people.....For this its great.
Religion creates global arguments, causing wars........Unforgivable
Look at it however you will.
Posted by coolapostle
I thought this whole line of thought had moved on to another thread? I cannot share stuff on my mind in this atmosphere... :-(
Posted by Davo_169
i think religion is our way of dealing with the unknown
death for instance, religion lets us believe that there may be something out there for us after death because we our brains are uncapable of processing such things as 'nothingness', and that everything just ends with death. also our brains cant come to terms with the big bang theory, we cant process the fact that everything came from nothing or that something was always there and forever will be there. oops im straying a bit too much into philosohy now, sorry peeps
anyway thats just my thought on religion if that makes any sense (i didnt do well in english so im not that good at portraying what im thinking)
Posted by BlackBauer24
Hi there folks, i've been in sunny Florida for a few weeks along with my wife, but now safely back home in cold Gloucestershire so please forgive my lack of input lately. i was told that GPRS is very expensive to use while visiting the states so i didnt bother trying to check out this forum on ny P910i, but hey i was on my vacation (as they say in the US) thank God for Virgin Atlantic airlines.