Posted by Sage
Recently, everywhere I go, everywhere I look, everyone whom I speak to has the same things to say about America, and it's all bad. So I ask the question, how did we get to be so hated? This is something I have been contemplating and analysing since my time abroad (3 years, so in no way can I be considered an expert in the field), and I have discovered answers very much different to the typical blind bull-headed anti-americanist stupiidity usually spread.
Now, before I begin, I am a strong opponent of our current government system, but then again so far eevry government I have seen is just as or maybe just a little bit less corrupt and power hungry. You think France is different? The government here only opposed America's to gain support from the people, what they did in the what used to be the french colonies is probably just as bad.
Anyway, getting to the point, most of the Anti-Americansm around us is just pure stupidity! I hear the same remarks replayed all the time (Bush R StUpID! (even if he is, so what? Besides that, u think Bush has power? You think Kerry is good because Bush is "evil" they are both just as bad, maybe Kerry a little less (although he is just playing politics by being the Anti-Bush). Bush is just a figurehead/puppet and Ill bet my life Cheney has more power than him.) It WaS 4 ThE OiL (which, in plain sight and very obviously is not the only reason, and is just what could be an underlying reason of the tru nature of the war) etc.). Soon the hate went from not only the government, but to us as a people. I go down the street and my FRENCH friend who happens to speak english perfectly but to his misfortune, in an american accent gets called a stupid nice-american by a group of french kids down the street.
Now I think to myself, that kid right there probably thinks he made a very witty intelligent remark, but not only was he very wrong about his remark, it comes off very stupidly. Ah i have figured it out! Now I know why we are so hated, its not for the right reasons (although to begin with it might have been) its to be "trendy"!
Hmmm so i continue to wonder. Do these people realise how great of a Nation we really are? Do they realise that most people live and breathe America? Do they realise that most people couldn't go one day without and American invention or American made product? (I am in no way saying we are the best, Im trying to say we aren't the worst) Do they realise that their style, the music they listen to, the movies they watch are probably all American? No...they don't. (And please don't say we are invading the world with our products, you all firstly want to be invaded and secondly during the Economic rescession we tried to cut back on Import/Exports but the WTO wouldn't let us, so the world is forcing us into that position, we all rely on each other).
No, no matter the arguement I can make, they continue their relentless outburst of supposedly intellident anti-american remarks. Well, why is this? Why are we hated for our government, for our nation? Why are we hated as a people? Every countries government is anything but benevolent, so why does america get the heat?
Well, its because long ago, we made a decision. We made the decision to become the policeman of the world, and that could possible be the the worst decision weve ever made. Lets say, for present purposes, that miraculously our government was somewhat "for the people" and there was a country in dire need of help. Who are we to come in there and fight their fight? Then again, if dont dont help themselves, who will help them? You have to give America some slack in its foreign policy, its not easy being a superpower, especially when the world is watching over you with a microscope.
Anyway, im just ranting/babbling and making lame attempt to be smart. Flame all you want . Anyway, none of this matters because 50 years from now when history is written (by us, the winners) we will be glamourised anyway .
Posted by Vlammetje
well......... i think I've read about 25% of your post and then gave up. I'd like to know who you mean by 'everybody' and what you mean by 'everywhere everything' and so on.
I accept the fact that USA has brought some great technological advancements, perhaps it is time for you to accept that American foreign policy is (at least partly) responsible for wars in other countries, for poverty in certain countries, for diseases in certain countries and so on and so forth.
Wanna know why some ppl hate americans? Foreign politics is why. Think Vietnam. Think cold war. Think hiring Osama bin Laden to fight off the russians in afghanistan. Think oil interests. Think israel. Think Cuba. Think Colombia. To name but a few.
Does that clarify anything?
Posted by axxxr
Sage maybe you americans should really sit down together and try to understand and think why millions around the world dislike your great nation!..I mean come on dude think!!.
Posted by Grimslade
I would never defend everything America has ever done in foreign policy; no country is perfect, and America, as the world's only superpower (for the moment) perhaps deserves to be held to a higher standard.
But, Hello??? The Cold War? The Cold War helped bring down the "communist" totalitarian dictatorship of the Soviet Union. The Cold War is one of the reasons Central and Eastern Europeans tend to be so much more pro-American than the French, Belgians and Germans. To many in that latter group, the Soviet Union represented some glorified, if imperfectly realized, ideal of egalitarian socialism. The people who suffered under the Soviet boot know better, which is why they are grateful that America tried to help them while many in Western Europe (though not all, of course) were too deluded or subconsciously worried about the Soviet Union to bother (see the cruise-missile demos in the 80s, for example...).
Posted by Sage
@Axxxr
I don't think you understand how much I do hate MY OWN government (and my people to some extent for not caring enough to let the government do what it does). But I have REAL reasons for it, I dont hate my government because everyoine else does and they believe its cool to be Anti-American. You've missed the point of my post entirely.
Posted by BobaFett
I agree with mr news director and apologize if my comment was a bit sharp in one of those threads, got a bad day.
Posted by thisisme
Well said axxxr.
Id also like to relate to the thread starter a little story i have.
A couple of years ago, my girlfriend and i went on a vacation to canada. We had to fly through minneapolis en route to calgary. For some reason, america has decided that anyone who transits through a US airport has to clear immigration in the US. Yes its a stupid idea, but unavoidable.
So my girlfriend and i approach the immigration officer at the desk, with a smile and a pleasant attitude. We hand our passports over to the sour faced old hag, and she notices that i have a british passport and my girlfriend has a new zealand passport, with a UK work visa. She examines the work visa a bit closer, and realises that it expires on 02/11/2002. This sent alarm bells ringing off in her tiny brain, as she adopted a smug patronising attitude and whisked us off to an interview room.
We then are interrogated by a team of 3 immigration officers who start giving my girlfriend the 3rd degree about who she is and why she cant go back to the UK after our vacation. They insisted "Its the end of January, you cant go back to the UK because your visa expires on the 11th of February!"
My girlfriend leans forward, and points out that the date format actually reads an expiry date of the 2nd of November.
Of course, we couldnt help but laugh out loud at the stupid american fools, and i had to try rather hard not to spit on the floor and give them a stiff british finger.
I dont think i have to explain the point of this story.
Posted by Sage
Wow, you found an unintelligent airline staff. So...? Your point is, please explain? Are you saying that unintelligent people dont exist in Britain...*bursts in laughter* Dont stereotype, we are individuals, i hoped you would be smart enough to realise that. Ive had such experiences everywhere, in france for example, I had the same experience with an American passport.
Oh and masseur/any mods, calling us "Stupid American Fools" counts as harrassment and I dont appreciate it, please have him banned.
[ This Message was edited by: Sage on 2004-10-17 21:19 ]
[ This Message was edited by: Sage on 2004-10-17 21:24 ]
Posted by thisisme
Not airline staff, immigration officials. People with a lot of power. STUPID people with a lot of power. Which is a good description of America in general.
Posted by Sage
*cough* Ahhh so you are one of those who think Bush has power. Funny, quite funny actually
. Oh and btw, immigration officials are usually international (because they are dealing with something international). So i don't think they are necessarily american. See, why do you call the entire American population stupid? Have YOU even lived here? Have you met more than 100 of us? I can probably find stupid British immigration officers as well, given the chance. I don't consider myself unintelligent by any means, and Im American.
Posted by thisisme
Ive lived in California, Nevada and Washington. Never again. All the stupidest people i met thought they were intelligent too.
Posted by Sage
*sigh* I suppose Bill Gates is an idiot too? (Believe me, you can't make that much money being an idiot)
Posted by thisisme
You can in america. And please dont go sucking up to a mod, the rules state personal attacks are not tolerated, it says nothing about insulting a whole nation.
Posted by Sage
I took it personally.
Ok, fine, if all this is true, i challenge you to go one week without anything American-invented or made. Get off the computer btw
.
Posted by thisisme
Im on my p900 it was designed in Sweden and made in France.
Posted by scotsboyuk
@Sage
I think your view is somewhat reactionary, but also understandable too. I think the issue can be broken down into the following points;
It does indeed appear fashionable in certain circles to criticise America based upon little or no facts; rather generalisations regarding President Bush, a supposed lack of American culture, alleged stupidity and ignorance, historical U.S. mistakes and opposition to right wing values and beliefs.
There is undeniably a certain degree of arrogance amongst many Americans with regards to their place in the world, namely that America is the centre of it. This isn't an insult, merely an observation through having spent time with a number of Americans. There seems to be a sense of America and its people being somehow better than others. However, having said this, such a sense of superiority is not uncommon. Many 19th century Britons held the view that the British people were somehow chosen to lead the world and that Britain was special, greater than all other nations. To be fair these feelings are often reinforced by world events, Britain was the most powerful nation in the world as America is today, but Britain does also have a very long history of that sort of thing too; that is a long story and it's probably best not to go into it here.
I don't have any particular problem with America or Americans any more than I have a problem with France or Italy or Canada or any other nation. The tendency to blame the world's problems on America is both wrong and foolish; the world's problems are caused by the world's people as a whole, not just America. There was war, famine, disease and religious hatred long before the U.S.A. existed and I am quite sure, sadly, that there will continue to be such problems for some time to come. To imagine that America is somehow responsible for all the world's evils, even most of them, is erroneous; America merely filled a power vacuum at the end of WWII and continued in the same vien as every other world power since recorded history began.
P.S. On the topic of American inventions, most of them would not be possible without earlier British inventions.
P.P.S. The computer was not invented by an American.
_________________
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC
[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2004-10-17 21:51 ]
[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2004-10-17 21:56 ]
Posted by Sage
thats why i said computer... So please, stop watching American movies, listening to american music, eating/drinking american food (coke etc.), smoking american cigarettes.
Oh yeah, the LCD screen you are using is an American invention (and i believe the microwave, car and tv are ones too).
[ This Message was edited by: Sage on 2004-10-17 21:52 ]
Posted by scotsboyuk
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Is watching British films on the British invented television ok?
Sorry I'm just joshing with you, but this is rather fun.
Posted by Vlammetje
i fail to see why somebody who is interested (or was interested) in knowing what ppl may have against his nation, gets to order around citizens of other countires not to use any stuff made in the USA.
If none of us did use any american stuff my dear Sage, do you realize where that will leave your economy? And therefore... you?
Posted by Sage
tv wasnt british or american made. Somewhat internationally made i just looked it up:
inventors.about.com/library/ inventors/bl_television_timeline.htm
and thats fine. BUT WHAT ABOUT URE CHAIR?!?!?! lol
@ Vlam
I live in Paris/Geneva (i move around). lol. And I'm just saying, if he thunks wE Rz Os StUpiD he shouldn't be using/consuming our stuff.
Anyway, do you know what would happen if America would collapse? Do you realise in what kind of a state the world would be in? There would be a pretty huge recession.
[ This Message was edited by: Sage on 2004-10-17 21:57 ]
[ This Message was edited by: Sage on 2004-10-17 21:59 ]
Posted by scotsboyuk
@Sage
I was being sarcastic.
(I don't think we invented that either, but we do use it a lot. )
Chair? What about the measurements of the tracks on the vehicle that transports the space shuttle to the launch pad, you have the Romans to thank for that!
Posted by Vlammetje
Travel 5 hours northwards my friend and you will find recession anyway
So far we've doen pretty good at killing locql economies without much help from the americans in that way...
Oh wait! I forgot the JSF debacle did in fact help bring us down a bit
Posted by thisisme
Thered be a pretty huge celebration too.
Posted by scotsboyuk
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1929
Posted by Sage
Ah and btw Scotsboy, i agree with alot of what you said in your original post.
What about your light bulb?!?!
And ure super powers! You were made in an American lab right?
Posted by Sage
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Thered be a pretty huge celebration too. |
lets think. Now, this may be entirely wrong, but heres what i think would happen.
The world economy collapses, most countries rely on our imports/exports and the money we give them. Countless people lose their jobs and the world goes into darkness... Riots happens, revolutions, general chaos.
North Korea invades South Korea with the aid of China (south korea having lost its support (the US)). Due to the current tangle of alliances we would have another world war. Because of new weapons advancements we would possible have the end of the world. Have fun with that.
Thats just one possibility.
One hell of a celebration.
[ This Message was edited by: Sage on 2004-10-17 22:12 ]
Posted by scotsboyuk
@Sage
The lightbulb was invented by an American, but he was using ideas other people had formulated as the basis of his work; we can probably trace every invention in history back to a few people; mostly of Middle and Far Eastern origin.
As for my superpowers, they are entirely British, hence the reason they tend not to work very well and cost a fortune to use.
Posted by Sage
ahhh by those standards nothing is american or british or whatever made
.
Posted by scotsboyuk
@Sage
Regarding the apocalyptic scenario you envisage; after the Wall Street crash of 1929 the world went into recession and as an indirect result there was another world war. However, the world coped and things got back to normal; the situation is very different today, not the least because the U.S. is being overtaken as the dominant economic power e.g. the EU already has a larger combined economy than the U.S. and both China and India look set to become larger economies than the U.S. in the very near future.
_________________
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC
[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2004-10-17 22:16 ]
Posted by Sage
ah but where would all our weapons go? we would sell them to the highest bidder.
Anyway, you are porbably right, but my scenario is a possible one.
Posted by Krubach
Your posts are the precise things i hate in America:
- We did...
- We are...
- We make...
- If we didn't exist the world would collapse
- We are better than everybody else
- We...
- We...
Should we worship you?
BTW, you're saying that if you your economy goes down the whole world would go down too.
Maybe you should think better who needs who.
If we didn't import all those wonderful things you make (Windows, IBM PC's, McDonalds, Levi's) would you survive?
Posted by Sammy_boy
There seems to be a lot of these 'America' threads suddenly appeared today - has everyone woken up today feeling political?
I don't have anything against America per se - but as others have commented it's they way that it is behaving that is causing the trouble. At the moment, the US is a global 'hyperpower' that doesn't have any other superpower to keep it in check, there is no balance in the world. I think it will take something like a powerful EU or China challenging America's monopoly on the world stage to change that balance (hopefully not with another war!!).
Don't get me wrong, what the USA stands for is admirable. Freedom and democracy, being able to be whatever you want to be no matter what your background or race is. It just seems that, like in Animal Farm, the ideal has been corrupted a bit - look at how Bush was originally elected 4 years ago! And all the paranoia that's about there at the moment. I think you need a few lessons from the UK perhaps in how to deal with terrorism - we've had the IRA to deal with for years (which, ironically, some in the US FUNDED!!!!
). We are by no stretch of the imagination perfect, but have at least just about kept a sense of perspective on all this.
With regards to the invention thing - I am interested to see what exactly the US has invented exclusively (I'm not having a go here, genuinely interested!). The only ones that come immediately to mind are condensed milk and infomercials.
My apologies if some of this doesn't make much sense, I'm tired and should really be in bed!
Posted by kimcheeboi
i hate this "we're better than everyone else" attitude that Americans have too!
I mean, i love living here but sometimes i just can't stand the blind stupidity of my fellow citizens. I've heard people say, "Who cares about sudan, we need to fix our economy and protect ourselves from high taxes" and other dumb crap like that.
THe world is a GLOBAL community and all these "we're the best" statements aren't going to work, and neither will these "i hate america" statements arent going to work either.
btw america is the biggest importer, and china is the biggest exporter, so if america's economy collapsed, so would the rest of the global economy. Same with the EU--if the EU went belly-up we'd be in trouble, but since we can sustain ourselves it won't be that bad.
Posted by Sammy_boy
@kim - well said!
Another quick point - people talk about things being 'american made' - most stuff now seems to be made in China and the Far East! I can see a time when people in these countries, whilst being well paid by their countries' standards, will get sick of being paid less than their Western counterparts to do exactly the same job and go on strike - that would put the cat amongst the pidgeons!
Sorry, a little off topic there
Posted by Krubach
Well i said in my previous post "why i hate Americans", but i don't.
I meant "why people hate Americans".
People dislike them because of that "take care of ourselves at all costs", meaning "I don't give a f*** about other countries".
America is powerful due to all the other coutries too.
All coutries probably need america too, in some way or another.
They armed Bin Laden to fight Russia, and he got out of control.
They armed Saddam Huseein to fight Iran, and he got out of control.
They armed Israelis, and they are still out of control (and Israel could be another thread subject...)
They armed Indonesia and they SLAUGHTERED Timor for years. (And this one is personal...)
They armed too many guerrillas to fight back comunism and all got out of control.
Bottomline is Americans throw sh*t in the air and forget that it'll come down again...
We have alot of good things coming from America, but America has some other good things coming from the rest of the World (GSM, Lexus, BMW's, SonyEricsson
...).
Conclusion: Americans are hated for their arrogance!
Posted by Krubach
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As someone said:
Europeans invent It.
Americans perfect it.
Asians mass produce it.
And that couldn't be more accurate.
For Sage who was talking about all the world using PCs.
Well, you're posting over the internet, and that was an European invention
Posted by Sammy_boy
Another point i just thought of too! As the usa is 'top dog' it is a target for criticism, just like the uk probably was when it had its empire. When ur on a pedestal people want to knock you off.
Posted by kimcheeboi
@sammy boy-i started all this with my "reasons to vote for bush" thread
america's invented the modern computer, windows (
), the light bulb, the telephone, the machine gun (:xx), the radio, the car, etc. etc.
Posted by Krubach
@Sammy
BULLSEYE!
Posted by scotsboyuk
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Windows is an operating system, not a computer.
The lightbulb technology we use today was invented by an American, Eddison, but I believe there were earlier lightbulbs.
I was under the impression that Alexander Graham Bell, a Scotsman, invented the telephone.
Weren't machine guns invented in Britain?
Didn't Marconi, an Italian who moved to Britain, invent the radio?
I'm reasonably sure that the car was invented by a Frenchman.
_________________
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC
[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2004-10-18 00:56 ]
Posted by kimcheeboi
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Internet was invent by Al Gore!
actually CERN invented it (or at least played a major role).
Posted by Krubach
CERN - Centre Europeéne de Recherche Nucleaire
European Center of Nuclear Research
Hellas! European, i was right, right?
(Sorry 'bout my bad French... and English probably
)
[EDIT]
Actually it's:
"Conseil Européen pour la Recherche Nucléaire"
_________________
God made a contract with IT professionals:
God won't fix computers, and IT professionals won't make miracles.
[ This Message was edited by: Krubach on 2004-10-18 01:08 ]
Posted by scotsboyuk
@Krubach
Or CERN for short.
Posted by Krubach
Posted by scotsboyuk
@Krubach
Posted by kimcheeboi
im telling you it was al gore!
@all
Posted by *Jojo*
Oh boy . . . just like before, this will just be a 'never-ending' discussion thread! Please stop talkin' 'bout : Politics, Religion, Money, Food here mates . . . Let's just talk more 'bout celfones and women
!
Posted by plasmadog
i think the car was invented by a german guy...
as the world's sole superpower at the moment, america has the opportunity to engage the whole world into a unified voice against all things evil.but, our future isn't really dependent on nuclear weapons, or terrorism or whose economy will crash into recession!
all these are temporary problems, and when the collective minds of the world get together, a solution to every problem can be hammered out.
what i'm really miffed out about america is (this is the only one i really care about), the fact that it is very callous about the enviornment/pollution. why can't america sign the kyoto treaty when the rest of the world has ratified it...
why is it that america which has such a small population produce such a disproportionate chunk of the world's pollution/garbage... and why can't they leave the alaskan wilderness for the animals? why do they have to dig for oil there too?
there's no point in fighting about who invented what or who can't live without what invention... the thing we really have to argue about is whether these inventions cause damage to our own futures!! what's the point in having a huge car/lighbulbs/pc's when we run out of energy sources?
Posted by kimcheeboi
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well depends, there were many different 'cars', but the modern, mass-produced car was invented by henry ford
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its' exactly this apathy towards others and our future that pisses me off!
America has such great potential to lead the world in the fight against terrorism, against pollution, towards world peace, and sooo much more but we haven't done anything about it! We've withdrawn fomr the Nuclear Non-prolifieration treaty, refused to acknowledge the Kyoto protocol, declared the UN defunct, and isolated America from the rest of the world!
Posted by Sammy_boy
Something else that might illustrate why quite a lot of people don't like Americans is this:
Whenever I buy/download freeware off the internet and start installing it, the programme will often ask what installation language you want to use. And quite often, then English option will say 'United States (English)' or 'English (United States)' This to many (including me I'm afraid to say!) says arrogance, especially as we invented the language!
And that in these programmes (Sorry, programs
) use thoughout American English, e.g. spellings like color, labor, americanisms like trash can, sidewalk, muffler, etc. Even when I see British characters in US series (Like Giles in Buffy the Vampire Slayer) they are using americanisms, makes me cringe!!
I'd like to end on a slightly more positive note, there are a lot of good things that have come out of the US. Like The Simpsons and Buffy (both show that some Americans are starting to develop a sense of irony!
) Star Wars (although it was made in the UK), lots of very pretty movie (Oops, sorry, film!) stars, and a ton of great films.
I bet the majority of Americans are decent people, who also despise what they're country has become, and how it is portrayed by others. And I hope they all vote Bush out!