Posted by TheReverend
@absi, What would you call the mass killing of those rebelling against Him, if not carried out executions? Have you truely red Revelations? Or do you remember Jesus saying anything to the romans for the daily executions? God bless
Posted by Sammy_boy
@thereverend - I hope you're not condining the execution of those who don't 'believe' in God - that would mean that I am due for being executed!
Just because someone doesn't believe in God doesn't mean they have to be killed.
No human - or other 'being' has the divine right to take another life. Granted - there are those that you could quite easily execute, but would it be far better to see them rot in jail for the rest of their miserable lives, having perhaps many years to think about what they've done?
Posted by TheReverend
@sammy There are not the true Christians those who kill or praise murder in the name of God. On the other hand, a Supreme being, who created all, has the legal and moral right to set the rules. Capital punishment is the sadest necessary one. Let me ask you: would you defend your country in a war? When doing that you apply the capital punishment upon aggressors. God bless
Posted by Sammy_boy
@therev - good point about executions and war, the death penalty is a bigger moral maze than many people think!
I'm afraid I don't believe in any supreme being - humanity could perhaps come close to being 'all'-powerful if we got our act together and all actually got on together, and worked as a big collective. However, I think we should agree to disagree on that one, I don't think either of use will convince the other one of their viewpoint.
I suspect as well that religion has recently been given a bit of a bad name by extremists - both Christian and Islamic ones. The problem is that texts like the Bible and the Quran can be interpreted almost any way by the reader, thus the multitude of various 'sub-branches' of each religion.
Posted by whizkidd
Has this thread been given the death penalty? :-D Revive it folks!
Posted by Ayush
Eh he he he :-) whiz, you know after that may other death penalties have been given and many rapes commited. Plus 5 chileds hung themselves to death by mimicing the hanging!
Posted by MTNT68i
"If we execute murderers and there is in fact no deterrent effect, we have killed a bunch of murderers. If we fail to execute murderers, and doing so would in fact have deterred other murders, we have allowed the killing of a bunch of innocent victims. I would much rather risk the former. This, to me, is not a tough call."
John McAdams - Marquette University/Department of Political Science, on deterrence
_________________
-Attribute to competence what can adequately be explained by luck.
[ This Message was edited by: MTNT68i on 2004-09-06 17:36 ]
Posted by absinthebri
@MTN - That arguement is a false dichotomy.
Posted by whizkidd
? What was that? :-D
Posted by scotsboyuk
@whizkidd
I posted in the wrong thread; I've moved my post to the correct thread now.
Posted by gelfen
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@sammy: actually it's a lame-ass point. killing in direct defense of yourself and others, while unfortunate and to be avoided if possible, is not really a moral question and is certainly not akin to execution. execution is not killing in defense, it is killing in punishment after the fact when you've had time to calm down and examine the evidence. it's also killing after you've captured the person or persons involved and there is no longer any immediate danger. by comparison, killing during a war is only done to reduce an imminent threat to your life or the lives of others. you'll note that enemy soldiers who surrender are not supposed to be killed, because they no longer present any danger.
@MTNT68i: and what about that one "murderer" who was acting in self-defence, or mentally ill, or (inevitably) actually innocent? there is no way to be absolutely certain of the guilt or innocence of an individual.
Posted by kimcheeboi
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i believe that this one has been addressed, but let me also scrutinize the premises.
Not all people believe that God exists. So for those people, what makes this argument valid? And why is captial punishment 'necessary'? False dichotomy there folks.
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again, you will notice that thereverend relies upon the Bible as his only evidence. well, what if the bible isnt true? No one has proven or disproven the Bible, yes, but one cannot base a real-world moral argument upon it.
But let's talk a little about the Bible. There's a story where Jesus rescues a woman from stoning. Well, she deserved the death penalty, didn't she? Jesus even said himself to obey the law of the land! Then why didn't he say, as the Supreme Being, "go ahead and stone her." ?
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There are many, many Christians who disagree with you. Yours is just an opinion, and no more. BTW just because you believe in something doesn't make it true. It's opinion!
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Stupid judges and ACLU morons... are ad hominems the best you can do? And why are we to return pain for pain? Is that right? Just because someone hits me, i should hit him back?
Doesn't make sense now, and I think Jesus (turn the other cheek, ahem) would disagree with you as well.
I rest my case.
Posted by lor
Yep, death penalty rocks. Forget human rights and all that crap, if you do the crime, you either do the time, or you die. If you want to avoid the death penalty, bloody hell behave yourself.
Posted by kimcheeboi
You're kidding right?
Posted by Sammy_boy
@kim - well put!
@gelfen - that quote you've put in you post is something that thereverent said, not me!!
Posted by gelfen
@sammy: i know, but i thought you conceded the point far too easily.
Posted by Sammy_boy
That's my problem, don't always stick to my guns, can be quite easily swayed.
btw, what's happend to thereverend? Not seen him post here for a while!
And another question - should the death penalty be applied to this one person they have arrested alive for the Beslan massacre?
I would say no - death would be too easy an option for that man, I'd rather let him rot in jail, being abused by other prisoners, kept in solitary confinement because he wouldn't last five minutes otherwise, and having plenty of time to reflect on exactly what it is he has helped do. That, to me, would be a punishment worse than death.
Posted by kimcheeboi
i really dont know...
Killing hundredds of children... for WHAT?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!
senseless waste of lives imo.
Posted by absinthebri
Kim, killing hundreds of children is abhorrent and incomprehensible. And killing the perpetrators won't bring a single child back. One thing you CAN do is to write to your senator and demand the US Government ceases to fund the Israeli Government to the tune of USD5 billion a year while they continue to murder Palestinian children.
Posted by kimcheeboi
yeah i have a lot of friends that are jews, but when you think about it, it's wrong.
Jew killing palestinians, palestinians killing jews... i mean what the hell do they want to accomplish by killing?
"An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind."
And down with the death penalty while we're at it
Posted by absinthebri
Criticism of the State of Israel is not a criticism of Judaism. Most Jews are as keen on human rights as anyone.
Posted by kimcheeboi
now you just lost me there...
Posted by absinthebri
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Which bit are you finding difficult?
Posted by Sammy_boy
I think we have a communications breakdown here....
I think Kim is agreeing with you, @absinthe, he isn't being anti-semetic or condoning the killing of Palestinian children, just stating there seems to be no point in the Jews and Palestinians killing each other in petty revenge attacks which just escalate the situation. Hope I've interpreted correctly
Anyways, I'm getting off topic here, sorry!
Posted by absinthebri
Sammy, why use the word "Jew" when you ought to use "Israeli"? Are you trying to promote anti-Semitism?
Posted by Sammy_boy
eh? where did that come from?
This is starting to get as odd as that 9/11 conspiracy theory thread!
You seem to be wanting to see racism somewhere so you can get all morally justified on me/us/whoever. I am not in any way racist, and I don't think Kim is either. It is a poor choice of words, nothing more than that, nothing less.
Posted by absinthebri
It's an INCORRECT and RACIST choice of words that you and Kim seem to insist on using. I'm merely wondering what your agenda is by CONTINUALLY making this out to be a Jewish issue.
Posted by Sammy_boy
Hmmm, I'm getting a little offended you still seem to think I'm a racist. I also find it rather amusing at that same time that you're taking my mistake as something more sinister. You strike me as someone who takes himself far too seriously.
Please, stop taking simple mistakes and interpreting it as something more. I guess this is how fights and possibly wars start, where someone's choice of words, although innapropriate or a mistake, is misconstrued. I am NOT a racist (I will say it again), but I am also NOT politically correct, I find that almost as offensive as racism.
Now, we are miles off topic here, shall we get back on topic before Masseur comes along and bangs our heads together?
Posted by absinthebri
I don't see how combating your racism, however "unintentional" it might be, is "politically correct". My on-topic point to Kim was that as he is horrified by the murder of innocent children (and who isn't?), he might want to write to his senator and ask why his Government gives Israel USD5 billion a year while it continues to murder Palestinian children. Note: no mention of Jews.
Posted by Sammy_boy
Perhaps I should just say what YOU WANT TO HEAR ME say:
"I am a complete racist, I hate everyone who isn't blonde, blue eyed, and who supports a Premiership football team. I have a shrine to nazis, and goose-step around town on weekends wearing my little stick-on hitler moustache and jackboots preaching my message of hate".
There you go. Now you can get all morally justified and tell everyone how evil I am
Anything else you would care to accuse me of being (apart from having and odd sense of humour)?
btw, I am only joking, of course
, I am not a racist (I shall say it yet AGAIN) Why is it in human nature to always try to see the worst in a situation? Is it so they can feel justified in having a go at them, etc etc. Why can't people see mistakes as just that, mistakes or misuse of words? This really is like that consipracy theory thread, Absinthebri here is reading into my putting of the word 'Jew' instead of 'Israeli' as evidence of me being some kind of racist, just like these conspiracy theorists see fuzzy pictures as evidence that the CIA was behind 9/11.
Edit: My apologies, @whizkidd for threadjacking here, I have to defend myself against accusations of racism, sorry mate
_________________
"All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing" - Edmund Burke
[ This Message was edited by: Sammy_boy on 2004-09-09 15:10 ]
Posted by Vlammetje
is anti-semitism even the same as racism?
Racism is based on colour of skin (simply put) and anti-semitism is based not on colour but on a general fear or jealousy of a nation (note.. NOT a country!) of people with shared beliefs/culture. (again put in rather simple words)
(yeah leave it to me to bring this COMPLETELY off topic then
)
In any case.... what were we talking about again? Oh yeah death penalty...... no I have to say that I think dath penalty is not 'justice' and can never be used in justice's name.
Having that said I can actually understand that people would want 'revenge' if their children were murdered. And want the person(s) who are guilty of that to no longer be in this world.
That does not make it right of course, not at all... but it's a very human sentiment
Posted by absinthebri
So, Marga, you don't think Irish people (or perhaps Roma) can be victims of racism?
Posted by Vlammetje
of course they can. i've shared a bedroom with a lady from barbados who hated all white people. That too is racism.
But that wasn't my question.
Posted by absinthebri
You said that (simply put) racism is based on colour. I've given you two examples of racism that isn't based on skin colour. Anti-Semitism is a form of racism (as it's primarily based on ethnicity).
Posted by Vlammetje
In that case i don't understand why you named Irish
Posted by kimcheeboi
bump, waiting for the reverend to respond...
Posted by whizkidd
Where has he disappeared? Haven't seen him for ages!
Posted by kimcheeboi
i don'y know, but i just saw a post by him...
Posted by absinthebri
You both claim to abhor flame wars yet you're both waiting for someone to post so that you can bait him!
Posted by kimcheeboi
i never said that
anyways im just waiting for his reply... he's been missing for quite a while.