Posted by boto43
Hey ppl,have u heard it yet. Three Czechs journalist were kidnapped in Iraq. Why? Is the war against the journalists ? We should condemn this act and ask us military commanders to change them for their presidant.
Posted by Sammy_boy
Yes, this hostage-taking is a worrying new trend in Iraq. They've just released a British civilian (whose first question was apparently 'how have West Ham United got on?!'), but of course those Czech journalists have now been kidnapped, Just heard that 11 Russians have also been taken, and we still don't know what's happened to those three Japanese people.
I think that all the civilians and journalists over in Iraq are seen as soft targets for these extremists, as they don't have weapons and can't be guarded 24/7.
Posted by gelfen
it seems a pretty dumb move given that a fair percentage of the worlds media is actually AGAINST the Iraq occupation.
Posted by Vlammetje
Well... from perspective of the extremist Iraqi fighters... EVERY foreigner in their country is an opportunist trying to make money in some way or other of the Iraqi situation... thus fair game.
Must say it is fully beyond me why anybody would wanna go over there given the current situation (which is not new btw but has been ever since dubya decalred the war 'over') it's just that with the growing number of civilians the number of kidnaps is rising too.
Of course these extremists probably are not ingenieurs themselves and may have no other education than how to hold a weapon and fire it. they fully ignore the fact that they won't be able to build up their country from scratch all by themselves
Posted by Pitta Baainens
Why don't they kidnap Bush? He's Satan in goddamn person!
Posted by boto43
Yes Pitta,we should change him for all kidnapped ppl. That would be a justice.
Posted by soulframe
Very well said pitta. While we're at it, lets chuck that GENOCIDAL MANIAC Ariel Sharon in at the frontline as well.
Posted by Saka
Wow, I see some very positive attitude here.
That surprise me from europeans who until recently just used to lick USA's butt.
Good thinking, Pitta and Baainens.
Posted by BobaFett
Anything new about the japanese hostages? And the others? Missed the news.
Posted by Dj Boyi
Yep,4 Italians have been kidnapped now
Posted by Dj Boyi
Ok,the latest is 40 hostages from 12 different countries,there will be NO negotiations whatsoever. I feel for them cus most are contract workers apart from 2 of them being US soldiers,and ppl call the allies animals!
I have Sky News on a lot and all i ever see is Breaking News from Iraq,one just came up as im writing this post saying a large explosion in the south of Baghdad.
Posted by BobaFett
where would it lead to? who will take the responsibility for all these kidnappings? ...
Posted by Sammy_boy
I've heard the Russian hostages and a few others have been released now, and apparently some of the moslem clerics have been urging people to release the hostages, so hopefully some of the other hostages will be released soon. I've also heard that some groups in Iraq are now jumping on the bandwagon simply to further their own goals - quite possibly financial....
I have to admit I find it quite worrying the power that some of these clerics/priests have over people - and I'm not just talking about Islam here! Anyway, going off topic a bit, sorry!
Posted by axxxr
What do u expect from people in a country occupied by foreign forces?.These iraqis were first persecuted under saddam for 30 years and now the americans are having there way over them!..How much more must must these ppl suffer?..These ppl r fighting a war and trying to rid themselves of occupiers who only have interest in there Oil..With no weapons and little to defend themselves with, they obviously get into desperate situatuions and kidnapping is a weapon which they unfortunately use!>Lets get some facts straight here:over 400 iraqis dies in the last 2 weeks in Faluja..and i think 30 allied troops died..But in the media there is never any preference given to the majority who died here.Seems like Iraiq blood is cheap.The americans are creating more long term problems for themselves if they are thinking they fighting a war on terror.
Posted by ares
Europeans where kissing american's but? Wtf? Here me now, i'm totally against the actual american administration (and israeli too by the way) but in no way i'm gonna support those intolerant and fanatic bastards that blow themselves and the other around, kidnapp and threat to cut innocents heads, bash women, etc, in name of a religion that in fact condemns their acts - f... them! Freedom fighter my a..!
Posted by boto43
Ppl,I'd like 2 know which country comes a man who said that I was licking Mr. Bush asshole 'cause that was exactly opposite.
Posted by Sammy_boy
@ Arez - totally agree with you there!
@ Axxxr - I can certainly see where you're coming from - the Iraqis have had one hell of a lot to put up with - but these 'occupiers' (without wanting to condone this war - which I don't as it was for the wrong reasons) I guess need to carry their mistake through now - if they simply pack up and leave Iraq now they will cause more harm than good - leaving Iraq with almost no government whatsoever, no infrastructure to get it's country up and running again and it's people at risk of being taken advantage of or suppressed again by another Saddam or Taliban-type government. I just wish that despite Saddam being one nasty piece of work, the US (and us!) should have stayed out of Iraq until a concrete reason was found (like proper evidence of WMDs, Saddam invading another country, or gassing his own people again, etc.)
Posted by Vlammetje
axxxr... i see where you're coming from.... but armed men kidnapping westerners will only bring about more armed soldiers and as always it's going to be the UNarmed population that will be the victim. Don't think for even a second the kidnappers themesleves are dead or injured. it's women and children that occupy 90% of the hospitals. The same women and children those ared kidnappers should be protecting... after all they're their mother's sisters and daughters aren't they?
What good do these kidnappers and 'guerilla-like' fighters do to their own people? Holding a gun is not getting anybody nearer to rebuilding Iraq now is it?
Posted by Sammy_boy
A lot of these gunmen also tend to hide in built up and civilian areas, unnessecarily putting the innocent in mortal danger - although the US attacking these areas is morally on stony ground - they do need to defend themselves from attack! This cleric that's stirring all this up has a lot to answer for - and there's no real way to deal with that situation or that person, as killing him would martyr him, doing nothing will mean he's free to carry on with his rhetoric, and simply imprisoning him won't solve the matter either.
Posted by Saka
@Arez: Did you see anyone around here who supports terrorists?
The sad fact is that USA & Israel are creating them with their behaviour and Europe is passive as always.
Being passive = kissing ass. Germany excused.
[ This Message was edited by: Saka on 2004-04-13 20:52 ]
Posted by purge
Dont imprison him just cut off his nuts and sew his scrotum back up with a couple of dead mice in there and let him go. Would work a treat.
Posted by axxxr
Its easy for u to call them ignorant and Evil and mudering bastards!..But have u ever thought what would drive a man to strap a bomb to himself and blow himself him!..Dont forget these ppl have no nothing in there lives nothing to live for..even no one to live for!..They dont seek pleasure..What would u do if men came into your home and murdered your family in cold blood?>and u were the only survivor left!.Your human insticts would say revenge!!.I am refering now suicide bombers in Israel.Its takes a lot to drive a man to suicide.So dont make them sound like there are evil coz they are not!they are just like u and me!..Only living in different circumstances.
Posted by axxxr
purge i can see u have intelligence of a rat!!..When will the Americans wake up to the fact that this not a way to win hearts and minds!!..By the actions the americans are taking now they are creating new problems and new terrorists for the future.
Posted by gelfen
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to the best of my knowledge no US, UN or Coalition soldier has ever murdered anyone in cold blood. However, some of these people in Iraq have murdered their own citizens in cold blood (remember the attack on that bus a few weeks ago?). from the outside there seems to be a big mentality of "I must seek revenge against those foreign dogs who killed my brother in self defence since he attacked them without provocation". there seems to be a blurring of the lines between "foreigners" - that specific group over there who bombed my house - and "foreigners" - anyone not directly related to me. I realise that's an over-generalisation but hopefully you see my point.
the temporary Iraqi ruling council was making real strides awhile ago with the development of an interim constitution which provided freedom of race and religion. it seemed to be almost within days of that announcement the trouble flared up again. don't these people realise that the sooner they let the council get control of things the sooner the foreign powers will get out? leaving aside the comparitive morality of the Iraqi "war", the US is there now and the situation has become about how you act in light of the cold hard facts. acts of terror won't make them leave faster, it will make them dig in for the long haul.
Posted by BobaFett
In a war are only loosers. Its time to awake and forget solve things with weapons. Those time are over. Sadly some governments are unable to understand it. And some others play with. As obi wan kenobi sad, who is the fool? The fool itself or those who follow the fool?
Posted by axxxr
Listen gelfen mate!..The f**king americans should'n be in Iraq in the first place..There are illegely occupying Iraq You think iraqis are so dumb that they belive the yanks came to liberate them!,,yanks dont give a flying monkeys about iraqis or liberating them..they just want to get iraq into control so they can suck the oil dry from it!..As far as these murdering thugs are concerned..They are fighting occupation here!..its there land mate..they make the rules not the americans!.They have to have to defend themselves against heavy american weapons..taking hostages is the only way they see things..And mate i wasnt refering to iraqi's sucide bombers but Palestinians.And your forgetting over 400 iraqis have died in the last 2 weeks fighting in the town of faluja..So what do u want them to do send George Bush Flowers.
Posted by boto43
Hey guys,as I can see this debate I would say 3. WW is coming. The war between muslim world and westeners.Who can save the world? Perhaps, Chinesse communists. Really, who was thinking about a fact, usa didn't ,make' wars with the muslims during the era of the Soviet union.
Posted by Dj Boyi
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Im sorry to say this but you must have a very short memory,i dont want long strung out posts over what i have to say,but Saddam killed 5000 of his own people in one day if you go back in time a bit.
Try to remember that it is'nt all Iraqi's disliking the allies,were probly looking at an estimated 10,000 man army that are causing this shit in the name of a 31 yr old guy named Al Sadr,or something like that.
Gelfen has a point on when all this kicked off!
Btw,just watching CBS News on Sky,they got a US troop saying 'we did'nt come this far just to run away from it'.Im sure most of them feel the same way.
Posted by gelfen
seems you missed this bit so I'll repeat it:
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the argument over whether the US should be in Iraq is academic at this point. it's become about how the residents behave now that Iraq is (temporarily) occupied. there is a siginificant portion of the Iraqi population grateful to be free of a dictator. i know in Australia a majority of Iraqi expats were quite relieved for the sake of their families. i think part of the problem is that for whatever reason, Islamic extremists want to make it about religion when it's only about politics - or perhaps greed. i think the close intertwining of religion and politics in many Islamic nations blurs the line a bit. however, i don't think the current "tactics" will work because the US can keep throwing soldiers at it almost indefinitely (and there is only a finite supply of suicide bombers).
Posted by Dj Boyi
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I've always thought this about Israel,im still waiting tho.
Posted by gelfen
@boyi:
(very black humour)
Posted by axxxr
boyi i dont have a short memory mate..Saddam did kill thousands of his own people!..But americans are doing exactly the same thing to them aswell!..And i am tired of listening to this Bullsh**t that the americans wanted to rid of saddam of all his evil and genocide..Ok then why does'nt america go into zimbabwe there's been a genocide going on there for years!..yet everyone chooses to ignore that one..ok how about palestine?..Palestinians are refugees in there own land!..Wheres your American liberator now?..and Americans constantly feed the Isreali army with more weapons and money and the Isreali Genocide goes on with!...Come on now ppl why the double standards?..And your right boyi suicide bombers dont simply vanish coz more troops go in..
Posted by Dj Boyi
Well GW Bush will be doing a live press conference on the TV in a few minutes,should be on all the news channels,lets see what he has to say.
Posted by axxxr
F**k that asshole!!...hate listening to the dumb mother F**ker anyway!!..My pet cat has more intelligence than that meglomanian!!
Posted by gelfen
you know, I think everyone excpet the US should get a say in the US presidential elections since it affects us more.
there are no votes in the zimbabwe issue for bush so there's no way the US will get involved. australia has in fact been leading the charge on dealing with zimbabwe, but with precious little support from anyone else. in fact britain should be in it up to her ears because zimba is part of the british commonwealth, but again - no votes in it.
as for the israeli-palestine situation, it's gone well beyond the point of laying blame. suffice to say i disagree with ANY ideology which denies the right of a particular race or religion to exist.
Posted by axxxr
Well how about sending a pipeline of oil into zimbabwe from iraq or kuwait and maybe just maybe america will notice!!..and his pet pooch blair will follow!.As far as the palestinian and Iraeali issue is concerned Without a Seperate and True Palestinian State america will find that the war on terror will go on and on and more innocent ppl will just keep on dieing coz of the polocies that america makes!.
Posted by gelfen
possibly, but in your opinion would that include the destruction of israel or not?
(i'm trying to get a sense of your political and religious affiliations)
Posted by Vlammetje
erm........ for the sake of everybody who wishes to voice a modest opinion on the matter, can we try and refrain from any namecalling. it does not make all this any easier to read
As far as Bush is concerned... i'd say we stick him, sharon, blair, our own PM Balkenende (
) and that spanish idiot, along with Bin Laden, Saddam, al sadr, all Hamas leaders and Putin in a bunker and nuke it. It may not bring about world peace at once but at least we will have rid ourselves from a bunch of power- and money hungry fools that will lead us to destruction if we don't stop them.
back to the point of armed militias in Iraq: no matter what anybody says..... men with guns never BUILD anything. All they know is how to destroy.
And no matter where you stand on the issue of 'self defense' or suicide bombing or whatever..... at the very end..... if a whole generation of suicide bombers has come to pass...... what will they have achieved? They will have achieved a world where they have left their parents without children and their ppl without a future.
Granted, they will have taken quite a few others with them.... but in the end... where will it lead? Nowhere at all.
I agree The US forces shouldn't be in Iraq. But if they pull out now... fully and completely... what will happen? What guarantees are there, in reality, that the iraqi ppl, the ones that are always the victims in this story, will be any better off?
How many of those men with guns really know how to create a safe environment? How many of them know how to buikld and explouit an oi well? How many of them know how to sell an item?
They have not done anything remotely like that for 30 years! How will they fare if left alone? Be honest. And do remember most ppl that did have the knowledge needed either left long ago or were killed.
Posted by gelfen
@vlamm: well said
Posted by Sammy_boy
Yes, nice one Vlamm!
I sometimes wonder if it would be worth setting up a Palestinian state somewhere, not sure where (answers on a postcard please!!
). It could solve a great many problems, or we all will end up finding something else to argue and fight about, it seems to be human nature to be confrontational.
Regardless of the legality/ethics of the US/UK going into Iraq, they now need to stay to get the countries' infrastructure and economy up and running, and to try to train people (perhaps including some of those gunmen) up so they can build and exploit an oil line, or become a plumber, work in a power station, etc.
Posted by purge
If I had a Pig Ugly wife like some of these Suicide bombers I would want to strap a huge amount of explosive round my body and set it off.
Posted by Vlammetje
erm....
Posted by anish
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I tottaly agree with Vlammetje here, if the coalation forces leave Iraq now the nation will just fall apart. I am sure Axxxr you will agree that even the muslims don't like each other, do you think the Sunnis and the Shias will live in harmony ever after? What will happen to the kurds? What about Ahemedia group? And its not news that muslims are the most illiterate and uneducated people in the world (Please don't come up with one or two names of famous muslims, instead look at the literacy rate of the muslim countries) and hence who will make the machinery to dig oil wells, ofcourse you have to depend on the rest of the world. And what is there in this middle east apart from oil which the Brits discovered for you, I really wonder what will happen to the muslim world if the oil dries up one day. Pakistan is the only muslim country which produce some rice, wheat and other stuff.
Now Axxxr you mentioned about 'Double Standards' above, do you know that non muslims can't even enter the city of Mecca or Madina, that's two big cities I am not mentioning about a particular mosque, how tolerating is that? I have friends who had to 'smuggle' Bible in to saudi arabia after removing the face cover so that they can read it at their home how tolerating is that? and then when people like you come to other countries you want all the rights in the world (I assume you are in london ) and you don't see that as double standards. You are allowed to build mosques and distribute qurans free and preach about your religion in all the democracies in the world (western or eastern) but you don't allow others to do the same in your countries.
You complained about the treatment of prisoners in guantanamo bay and asked for fair trial where they were reading qurans and were having three meals a day and were provided a muslim american preist while in saudi arabia you will be beheaded without any trial for blasphemy and that blasphemy is if a person folows his religion, not saying something against islam, don't you think that is not double standards?
Now again if you look around the world where ever there is trouble and war one side is always muslims, be it Iraq, Palestine, Kashmir, Afganistan, Chechnya, Yogoslavia .... the list goes on an on. If I am arrested for fighting against 10 different people and 10 different places I think its only fair and logical to assume that I am the trouble maker and not the other 10 people. I think this fighting around the world happens because the muslims are not at all tolerable to other religions and the people don't want to integrate with the society they are living in. Having said about integration in Saudi Arabia you want even women visitors to use a black veil to cover their head and at the same time you refuse to learn English while you are in UK.
You seems to be an educated person based in london try to influence the ignorant religious leaders to be more open and tolerable to other religions and cultures then people will respect muslim ideologies
Posted by Vlammetje
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i did not say THAT and that is most certainly not true. What i said is the ppl who have the knowledge required to build Iraq are not currently IN Iraq nor have they been there anytime during the past 10 years. They fled. they are still (most likely) muslims though, albeit in exile and most certainly not illiterate.
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Indonesia? large tourism industry (well at leats prior to the bombings?)
Egypt? Also tourism?
Agricultural? Spices? Just to name a few
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Now again if you look around the world where ever there is trouble and war one side is always muslims, be it Iraq, Palestine, Kashmir, Afganistan, Chechnya, Yogoslavia .... the list goes on an on. If I am arrested for fighting against 10 different people and 10 different places I think its only fair and logical to assume that I am the trouble maker and not the other 10 people. |
I give you northern Ireland. A fine example of mutual Christian AND UK based intolerance.
Posted by soulframe
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And keep Israel safe from harm. I think this was the primary reason for the invasio...... sorry 'Liberation of Iraq'
Posted by boto43
Hey westerners, Russians were released,how is it possible? Iraqis are making a difference between christians. That's not so good news.
Posted by soulframe
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Err? Wake up and smell the coffee people! Why does everyone seem to be so surprised? This 'War' on Islam has been going on ever since Islam first started. It's just another crusade, led by the Zionist's and Extreme Christian right, who basicly control the USA, who control the world. There's not much anyone can do about it unfortunatly, as long as the west sees Islam as a threat to it's NWO, then we're not gonna see a resolve anytime soon.
The American Dream or world peace, you choose.
Posted by Vlammetje
care to be a bit more precise? Coz 'making a difference between christians' is the kind of statement that really MEANS nothing but has the potential to create a row.
Considered the possibility they were:
a) freed
b) paid for?
You think anybody cares whether they're christain or not? Does that make them special in any way?
Is every westerner christian?
Posted by boto43
You don't have all infos. Otherwise you wouldn't ask these questions.
Posted by Vlammetje
which is obviously why i ask you to EXPLAIN A BIT FURTHER