Posted by Clearday
@scots,have u seen that definete "integrations" here yet?huh EU?
Posted by boto43
pretty girl wrote :
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But we do have immigrants? That is what you're saying, right? |
Sorry but no
_________________
this message was posted from Toshiba E 740 or Satelite PRO M 30 via
P 900[ This Message was edited by: boto43 on 2004-12-21 13:38 ]
Posted by Vlammetje
then perhaps you should say (in a manner that i can understand) what exactly it is that you think the Dutch and the British are unable to understand and why
Posted by Clearday
@boto,
he tries to say,u may be not understand what imigration meaning and earning money abroad and being an important part of in Gross national income in different country.(he tries to connect his sentences with GNP amounts,numbers what I said on top)
-and u said that "no boto,we surely understand what it means,we have many people who earns money abroad and find a better life standart."
-so there s no problem left.
Posted by dave_uk
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Really? I don't think anything I have said in this thread could be construed as either hate-filled or half-baked, or in fact untrue. Is this another case of absinthebri spoiling for a fight, for a change...
Are you an Arab, Mr Absinthe, as surely only someone with a particularly vested interest could take offence at such an innocuous couple of posts?
For the record, I am certain that the majority of Arabs, like the majority of people are decent, peace-loving people, and that Islam is a religion that preaches just that. It is extremism that I, and apparently most of the world, object to and yes of course I have a bias in this situation, as I will admit (and have previously) - who doesn't? I'm not, however, attempting to hide mine.
If you want to preach at someone, why not become a cleric?!
Posted by absinthebri
You're the one claiming al-Jazeera is biased. I'll take your evidence on that. You're the one claiming al-Jazeera gives a platform to "terrorists". I'll take your evidence on that. My only "agenda" is the truth and you appear to be so off the scale you don't see your own xenophobia.
Posted by Clearday
@absinthebri,
I agree u...dave tries to push some racist and use some bulls..t words...he bleeds discrimination,hatred.He is no such a well-balanced guy,good-tempered.Different cultures create welfare.Look America...
U said something then u says;I havent said it...It goes like these...
Posted by boto43
@clearday,racist to arabs
Arent they whites too? Sorry Im not sure about it
dave pls stop quoting,I dont know who has been quoting who
Posted by dave_uk
@absinthebri
Oh, come on - are you seriously claiming that you don't believe that Al-Jazeera is biased. Don't get me wrong, it is merely an exaggerated example of media bias prevalent in the BBC as much as anybody else. They're just rather cleverer about disguising it. What is more, I would fully expect an Arab-owned, funded and run organisation to be biased in the same way as I would expect an American, British or Israeli organisation to be the same, as they invariably are. It's just that I would expect people to realise that, not be so blinded by the distortions that they are shown that they lose all sense of reality. I am not making generic statements about Arab people and I do not either dislike or fear Islam, therefore I am not xenophobic.
@clearday
You are a slanderous little muppet. I am no racist, neither is there any justification for calling me so. The fact that you may not understand what I am saying does not make it bullshit. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about, and neither it appears does anybody else. Take your stupid, ignorant views elsewhere or alternatively find a forum in which you are able to express yourself with words rather than cheap insults.
@boto
Apologies for all the quotes
Posted by Vlammetje
yeah pls stop the quoting
and while we're at it, I think it's time to suggest we should NOT turn this thread into an argument on racism/any other form of hate or fear.
Surely we've all seen the threads on this and similar topics in the past, surely we all know what they lead to: more anger and hate u;timately.
Much as i respect everybody's opinion on the matter, this thread is about European society and EU so i dare say a discussion on terrorism/al jazeera/racism may be called off topic.
Also it's tiring, it's saddening and it's aggrevating. It's what brings out the wors6t in most of us and I for one do not care for another read of it all in this thread.
So I hope you will all be able to swallow you pompous arguments, your egos and your pride and continue on topic.
I thank you.
Posted by absinthebri
Okay, Dave, you concede you have no EVIDENCE of al-Jazeera bias. And you concede you have no EVIDENCE al-Jazeera give a platform to terrorists. I wonder why you dis them rather than, say, the BBC then? Perhaps your motivation is subliminal?
Posted by Clearday
dave_uk
stop talking rubbishly...how can u easily say to me I m a stupid?
isnt it a weird answers what we talk here from u?how can u abuse me?what do u talk about?how can u talk with me in a manner of impolite?
who are you?find a different forum who listen ur abuse sentences,impolite answers,hatred words,discriminated sentences...muppet? u can easily write these words without any pay attention,without any kindly manner.U ABSOLUTELY BAD-TEMPERED MAN-UNBALANCED PERSON...Why someone doesnt talk with me like u talk?u must learn somethings from SCOTS.what s ur education man?what s ur job man?be patient,be friend,be peacufull...
meanwhile al-Jazeera s a common global tv station man,not more...
"Our mother is love! Our father is love!
We are born from love! We are love!
All loves constitute a bridge leading to the divine love.
To love human beings means to love GOD."
-Mevlana Celaleddin Rumi (1207-1273)
_________________
[ This Message was edited by: Clearday on 2004-12-21 15:35 ]
Posted by absinthebri
Well, Marga, I merely stated that Arabic was becoming more prominent as a world language. I didn't think it was a contentious statement or that other people could twist it in to something that was not intended (and something that had not crossed my mind).
Posted by Sammy_boy
I'm with Vlamm on this one - this discussion, or a rather personal flame ware as it seems to have degenerated into, is off topic here.
I don't care who started it, and whose right, wrong, or xenophobic, how about we all drop it? I can see that argument going round in circles.
*Vain attempt to get somewhere back on topic* I personally would like to see Turkey as a member of the EU, it will bring some cultural balance to the EU, and I personally think that the more countries, with their different cultures and ways of life the better it would be for the EU. My views on the EU have mellowed a little recently - if only they could cut down on the red tape, over-legislation, corruption and subsidies I would be a lot more for it.
And another question - how about Russia joining? You could argue that a lot of Turkey is outside of Europe, quite a lot of Russia is also outside of Europe, so if Turkey are joining, why not Russia? As I say, the more the merrier!
And the EU could provide a serious contender for the US as a world superpower, perhaps keep them in check a bit?
Posted by Clearday
@dave what u said is below;
Hmmm....maybe. Time will tell, as always. Though if Al-Jazeera is an indication of the cultural growth we can anticipate, God help us all, or at least those of us who aren't Islamic!
God help us all,or at least those of us who doesnt provide discrimination,and hatred.U absolutely do not know anything about Islam and its doctrin.I m Islamic-Ottoman Turk and I m very very glad to be.Turks are real Muslims...
Posted by dave_uk
@absinthebri
You should be a psychologist! (The subliminal comment)
It's very difficult to prove such things, as you well know, so evidence is a very convenient get-out. One of my best friends is serving in the Israeli army at the moment and I speak to him weekly. My father is heavily involved in a government-sponsored initiative to work out how best to help the Palestinians build a self-sufficient Palestinian state that is secure for both sides. I do not have concrete evidence that I can present to you but I am not in a court of law either and you, although you seem to think you are, are not a judge. I have heard first-hand accounts of the type of distortions I am referring to but I understand that that does not meet your strict criteria for evidence and is therefore inadmissible. One thing I can tell you is that my motivation is not subliminal, it is, ironically like yours, to right some widely-held and wrongly-held beliefs about the reality of what is reported in the name of news journalism. But this whole issue is wearing very thin and I am tired of going over the same thing again and again. You will have your opinions and I will have mine and, it seems, never the 'twain shall meet...so there it is. I respect your views, and I would ask that you respect mine.
@clearday
I don't have the intellect to decipher whatever point it is that you are trying to make. One thing I have managed to conclude is that you are a hypocrite, telling me I should be "friendly" and "peaceful" in the next breath after you have called me a racist. You are stupid - that I stand by.
@Vlamm
Sorry, you're right. I did try and make that point some time ago but it fell on deaf ears so I thought it might as well continue. But I'll stop now. No offence meant, except of course to those who are prone to outrageous, unfounded accusations
Posted by Clearday
u only breed discrimination.Man I m a logistics specialist,I ve been educated in London Economics School one year,in amsterdam university 1 year,graduated from the best university in the middle east and balkans named Bosphorus University,I can speak two languages,one of is Italian other s spanish.And I can understand easily ur simple English impolite sentences here.There s no doubt for me.U only push and postt everywhere how I m stupid,u just write it easily and Everyone has seen ur sentences on top I said about ur Islamic thought and manners.So what can u wait from me?I do not only watch ur ignorant sentences?I must correct it.This s so normal,do not force urself saying some "rubbish words,unmeaningful clauses".U can not find urself in uppercase while u do these...and take some advise from Mevlana who is muslim and lived 700 years ago in the world.And cry?and ask urself how can I be so ignorant and untolerance man?
Mevlana says;
Come, Come again !
Whatever you are...
Whether you are infidel,
idolater or fireworshipper.
Whether you have broken your vows
of repentance a hundred times
This is not the gate of despair,
This is the gate of hope.
Come, come again...
-Mevlana Celaleddin Rumi (1207-1273)
"Our mother is love! Our father is love!
We are born from love! We are love!
All loves constitute a bridge leading to the divine love.
To love human beings means to love GOD."
-Mevlana Celaleddin Rumi (1207-1273)
How long wil you say, "I will conquer the whole world
and fill with myself"?
Even if the snow covered the world completely,
the sun could melt it with a glance.
A single spark of God's mercy
can turn poison into springwater.
Where there is doubt,
He establishes certainty.
-Mevlana Celaleddin Rumi (1207-1273)
dave-uk...dave-uk...still...still...
Posted by scotsboyuk
@dave_uk
Please ignore absinthebri, for obvious reasons.
@Clearday
dave_uk was not insulting Muslims or Arabs, he made a point, which looks to have been misunderstood. dave_uk was being critical of Al-Jazeera, not Islam, in facthe his point looks to have been to seperate Islam from Al-Jazeera, which many in the West take to represent Islam as a whole.
@boto43
I am not entirely sure what your point was, but I can ensure you that Britain does have a great deal of emigrants. In fact Britain is one of the world's greatest emigrant nations, with Britons having settled in almost every nation of Earth and certainly on every continent.
@Vlamm
I don't see English losing its global status, but I do see othe rlanguages gaining such a status. The problem with the spread of Arabic and Chinese as opposed to Spanish is that they use different alphabets from the Latin alphabet.
Europe, America, India and China look to be the dominant economic powers on the near future, of these, all but one have significant relationships with the Latin alphabet in general and English in particular.
Arabic as a language doesn't have much scope outside the Islamic world, not only because of the fact that it uses a different alphabet, but also because the Arab nations are not cultualy dominant. Arab nations do not produce sufficient global brands or cultural references to make themselves an influential cultural force. If one looks to China on the other hand, Chinese culture is widely known and even practiced throughout the Western world, whether through cooking, the Chinese New Year, medicines or any other means. Arabic culture is, at best, marginalised in the wider world, with minimal references.
From current trends one would imagine that there will be two or three dominant languages, most likely English, Spanish and Chinese. There may be other languages, which are important, but I believe that these three will be the most widespread through a mixture of economic necessity and cultural icons. One can already see a similar situation in the EU, where English, French and German are the dominant languages because of thes every reasons.
Posted by boto43
@scot
my post is something between a joke and provocation.
I'm sure that's not anything serious.
Sorac has said "Boto is flame maker"
Certainly that's not true .
Btw I don't care about emigrants or immigrants and I'm not an expert in this field of "life" .
Posted by scotsboyuk
@boto43
Well that is jolly good to hear!
Do you think your country has benefited from being a member of the EU?
Posted by boto43
I don't think.
maybe in close future [20-30 yrs
] the best life for ppl was during era of socialism.But I'm an old communist.You shouldn't believe me everything 
________________
this message was posted from Toshiba E 740 or Satelite PRO M 30 via
P 900[ This Message was edited by: boto43 on 2004-12-21 21:04 ]
Posted by scotsboyuk
I suppose these things do take time, the Czech Republic or Slovakia (whichever it is that you come from) have only recently joined.
Posted by absinthebri
Scots, what are these "obvious reasons"? Dave attacks al-J. then fails to offer any evidence to support his position. Then he claims the BBC is just as biased and caps it all by saying he has a friend in the IDF. He states al-J. is financed and run by Arabs. EVEN IF he could substantiate his bias claim, it is still racist. You can attack me but you don't establish any truth by doing so. So what's your agenda?
Posted by boto43
recently
it was in may this year.
Posted by scotsboyuk
@boto43
I imagine that it will take a few years before you notice any practical value to EU membership beyond being able to work and travel within the EU more freely.
Posted by Clearday
@scots,
please be fair...dony u see the dave's sentences;
these are his sentences,and what u understand from below
Hmmm....maybe. Time will tell, as always. Though if Al-Jazeera is an indication of the cultural growth we can anticipate, God help us all, or at least those of us who aren't Islamic!
Posted by Sammy_boy
@dave, it's probably best if you explain exactly what you mean about those words that clearday's quoted. I'm sure it was probably either poorly worded, or has been misunderstood. It would put some people's minds at rest, stop them of accusing you of being something I'm sure you're not, and stop this flame war from re-igniting.
Posted by absinthebri
"All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing" - Edmund Burke
And that's why I challenge people's unfounded slurs. At the end of time, I don't want to one of the people who did nothing.
Posted by methylated_spirit
Is that true, though? Its just a quote, from a man. Do you base your entire life on what other people say, or do you ever find anything out for yourself?
Posted by Clearday
All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing.
Edmund Burke .
Exactly...
I see,u have attempted to abuse a religion "Islam" and after u tends to put clouds on ur sentences what u have said before about Islam.U are so tricky in that.Firstly,u say everything than u ignore what u say...And act as a deaf&blind role.I fully disagree with ur thoughts of Islam.As a Otto-Turkish muslim man who believes in same God,I cannot underestimate any religion...I believe in Prophet Jesus as same as Prophet Muhammed.Prt Jesus,Juanna,Elias and others are our prophets too.I ve read several times "Bible" like "Quran".In the bottom line,please talk friendly and peacefully,especially u talk a religion of someone.U must be more careful,more honest,more lovely.Now I can forget what u say if u apoligize here from us.Defining the problem is easier than providing the solution.
Well I m going to end of it,I m bored.
Posted by Sammy_boy
Er... clearday, is that last post meant for me?
If so, where did you get all that anti-islam stuff from?
I never realised my signature could potentially trigger a flame war!
Posted by Clearday
@Sammy_boy,
of course this is not about u...how can u derived this result from my posts? it s about dave...just dave.ok?
Posted by absinthebri
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dave_uk said "Though if Al-Jazeera is an indication of the cultural growth we can anticipate, God help us all, or at least those of us who aren't Islamic!"
Sammy, how do you interpret that in a non-racist way? I have repeatedly asked Dave to offer evidence that al_Jazeera is in any way biased; he has declined. Make up your own mind.
Posted by dave_uk
@scotsboy
@all
Following the entirely reasonable request for me to clarify the sentence that seems to have so outraged Clearday, I merely meant that the distorted views portrayed by such organisations as Al-Jazeera were dangerous when ignorant, or simply easily-led people who believe everything they see on the news, take all the sentiments as gospel. It is obviously not particularly dangerous to those who are Islamic (allow me to clarify once again that I do make a distinction between Islam and Al-Jazeera) as the sentiment expressed is not anti-Islamic, but anti-American, anti-Israeli and against the West in general.
I also would like to point that my original comment about Clearday's English, which may have been slightly ill-advised, is now point proven as he has clearly misunderstood what I said, (which I don't think was especially ambiguous, particularly when viewed alongside the rest of my comments) and accused me of being racist as a result.
What it comes down to is that those of you who "know" me from elsewhere on this forum, and whose opinions I value, are well aware that I am neither racist nor xenophobic - what the rest of you choose to believe, ably aided and abetted by everyone's favourite IN-flamer, absinthebri, is quite frankly up to you.
Life is simply too short...
Posted by absinthebri
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Where's your evidence of any distortion? No matter how many times you repeat your lie, it still doesn't become the truth.
Posted by Sammy_boy
I wasn't trying to interpret it, just asking Dave UK to clarify what he's said, I wasn't agreeing or disagreeing with him. Many disagreements and arguments seem to happen through misinterpretations, misquoting, or just plain interpreting something however they want to fit their own agendas.
@dave - clarify your point mate - this argument could have all been over a simple misunderstanding!
@absinthe - perhaps I am being overly optimisitc about human nature, but I am hoping that blatant racism (apart from those BNP morons) is dying out in the UK. I'm sure that Dave_UK isn't a Islam-hating nutter
Edit: @Dave_UK - oh, you have clarified it, sorry!
My point proved. He isn't a fascist at all, see!
_________________
"All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing" - Edmund Burke
My Ebay Auctions Nokia 8310+accs, old BT pho
[ This Message was edited by: Sammy_boy on 2004-12-22 11:15 ]
Posted by methylated_spirit
He's lying? No he isnt. He's offering his opinion. absinthebri, once again, i see nothing but you being completely unwilling to listen to anyone who has a different viewpoint from you. Why do you react like this? Everyone is willing to listen to your views, and discuss them in a mature manner, but you call others with different views liars and racists! I really dont understand why you are so openly confrontational all the time. People let you speak. Let others speak. There is no clear right or wrong on this issue, its all a matter of personal opinion. Let others have their opinions too.
Posted by Clearday
dave,
I see now u use ur sentences so friendly,or forced to be a good friend...But I see,U continuesly lie...
Man,we are not stupid,I m not a muppet that u said before.U abuse evrything,than u say I havent said it.Who believes in u?
u said here;
You are a slanderous little muppet,Take your stupid, ignorant views elsewhere or alternatively find a forum in which you are able to express yourself with words rather than cheap insults.
You are stupid - that I stand by.
"arent Islamic"
Posted by Clearday
@methylated_spirit,
well done mate,U act as a deaf&blind as dave_uk.It s so easy to support who is from Uk.Coz u are all friends,and a friend always supports own friend.But dont forget,u must be near truth,not lies.
HEYYYY ALLLL PLEASE WHAT DO U UNDERSTAND FROM THESE WORDS?
>>>Hmmm....maybe. Time will tell, as always. Though if Al-Jazeera is an indication of the cultural growth we can anticipate, God help us all, or at least those of us who aren't Islamic!
dave says I ve misunderstood,so what have u understood from "arent Islamic" words? let me clarify please...
_________________
[ This Message was edited by: Clearday on 2004-12-22 11:29 ]
Posted by methylated_spirit
clearday, you need to read my post again, mate...
Posted by Vlammetje
I'm going to give this one go.
I do believe that somewhere a few pages back i suggested the al-jazeera offers no more an honest view of the world news than CNN or Fox news or even the BBC do.
Strangely enough, everybody seems to accept this point, yet there seems to be a great deal of argument about it all the same.
Clearday, in my opinion dave did explain himslef on the previous page, there is no need to ask him again. Since you may not stop because his explanation simply did not satisfy you, I will give it a shot.
What i think he meant was: people that believe the al-jazeera version of the news, may turn out to be biased against westerners.
Just as people who choose to believe the Fox version of the world news, may very well turn out to be right wing radicals.
The view that most 'independent' news agents of this earth are not really offering 100% true and unbiased news, that view in itself does not make one a racist.
And althoughj it is obvious that this is not what you read in daves comment, i do believe that that is what he meant.
Posted by Clearday
| Quote: |
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I read,what s ur opinion for me that I havent read it ur?
of course the opinions of dave s belong himself.Yes everybosy posts thier views.If I said opposite of Christs,althought I couldnt.What do all talk with me?
and @vlamm,I definetely understand what u ve written here.Thanks.
Posted by methylated_spirit
clearday, you obviously do not understand my point. Because you do not understand it, you should not be commenting on it. _________________
Hello, Scroto!
[ This Message was edited by: methylated_spirit on 2004-12-22 12:00 ]
Posted by absinthebri
Meths, my opinion is irrelevant. Someone makes a statement, I ask for the evidence to support the statement. Why do you class that as not listening? I'm interested in the process that enables someone to post an unsubstantiated opinion as fact and sees an issue in that opinion being challenged. All anyone has to do is go to al-Jazeera's English language site and post some of the biased stuff that we need g-d to protect up from. You can attack me until you go blue in the face, *I'm* not the problem.
Posted by methylated_spirit
Posted by Clearday
@methylated_spirit,
superb,bravo.I m so stupid and I do not understand anything.This s the result.Superb.cheers and beers...
Posted by methylated_spirit
Posted by Clearday
shame...have u headache?
Posted by methylated_spirit
Just from reading the insane, random rantings in this thread...
Posted by Clearday
definetely,unfortunately some people doesnt allow himself to understand whole tread in the same time.anyway...
Age thirty-five:that means half the course,
Like Dante,we stand midway in life;
Our youthful verve,vigor and resource
-Wanton s our plea,in vain or strife-
Drift away blind to tears of remorse
Clearday.