Posted by kinc
Hey i'm enjoying this thread. It is called Eu forum and we're all part of it wether you like it or not, there is no western block anymore!
@sammy boy well said.
Materialistic yes every one is we all strive to own more. That is human nature not geographic.
bit deep sorry
Posted by michka
boto> Yeah, in my early stage of life, dinosaurs were dead but still had some flesh attached to the bones.
Jim> Just next to ULB, near FD Roosevelt ave. and Bois de la Cambre.
Posted by scotsboyuk
@Atlis
Of course I know where Slovakia is without looking at a map! You seem to be implying that people from the Western nations are insular and not very well connected with events outside their own country. I am guessing you didn't mean to cause any offence and I certainly haven't taken any, I just feel that your post could have been worded better.
At any rate there is a great deal of variation within Europe when it comes to the standard of living. This is the first time in recent history that the countries of Eastern Europe have had a real chance to truly prosper in an atmosphere of peace. Historically Eastern Europe has always been a very poor area in comparison with Western Europe, but hopefully this will change, everyone deserves a high standard of living.
I would be interested to know which Western European nation people from Eastern Europe regard as having the best standard of living.
Posted by michka
What is "the best standard of living" ?
Posted by scotsboyuk
@michka
'Standard of living' means the level at which people are able to live their lives. It take sinto account factors such as, salary\price ratio, state of healthcare system and access to it, standard of education, social conditions, rule of law, etc
Posted by boto43
scot,sorry you are wrong a little bit.We (czechoslovaks)
had better living standard than westeners during times of socialism when I take this generally for all ppl.That's not me who said it but my friends who came to our country 14 years ago.Well look why, we had free of charge schools (all schools),medical care and mainly when I was in ur age I didn't know what unemployment is .
Now situations is different and you're right.
I'm sure that you can't know about our life 20 or 30 years ago 'couse I think you haven't been here.
Anyway I am very happy with the pace of the thread. Certainly this is a thread for contact between West and East ,that was reason why I did this thread.Thank to all.
Sorry my friends Mason and Roy are from empire of evil
USA.They are my best friends.
Hope we'll all meet at any place some day to discuss our problems and drink beer !
_________________
Love toshiba
& 
hope they dont destroy my life [ This Message was edited by: boto43 on 2004-05-22 06:17 ]
Posted by Atlis
Sorry scot, I'm not first here who said something what was ment as offence... But I'm not offending anyone. What for. This discussion. And very hard. You'd be very surprised, what I've experienced during working with ppl from 47 countries - esp. UK, Germany, US, Belgium, Holland etc. - their knowledges about world - sometimes I didn't know if to laugh or cry... :-) That's why I asked - after hearing opinion that we have deserts in our country or taxidriver in Brussels didn't know where Russia or China is...
Posted by scotsboyuk
@Atlis
I did say that I didn't think you had meant any offence, it was just the way you had worded your post that made me think some people might take offence. I certainly didn't take offence and I do understand your point, sometimes people can be very ignorant of other nations and cultures.
@boto43
I would have to disagree with you; in my opinion Czechoslovakia did not have a better standard of living than Western nations twenty or thirty years ago. I say this because if one compares both Czechoslovakia and the UK thirty years ago then we have the following situation:
Both countries offered free healthcare to everyone (in the case of the UK this also includes foreigners)
Both countries offered free education to everyone (again this includes foreigners who came to stay in Britain for extended periods of time, but who didn't remain in Britain permanently)
An obvious difference would be unemployment, Britain being a capitalist country experienced unemployment, sometimes high, sometimes low. I would be interested to know if Czechoslovakia had 100% employment or was it a case that unemployment was just very low.
The UK didn't have (and still doesn’t have) a secret police force
The UK allowed freedom of speech, people could criticise the government without fear of reprisals
The UK allowed free and fair elections to choose a new government at least every five years, the people were free to vote for whoever they thought would do the best job
The UK was not fearful that U.S. tanks would rumble through London if the UK should take a different line to that of the U.S. (e.g. Suez Crisis). The former communist countries had to make sure they kept their policies in line with those of Moscow.
Whilst both the UK and Czechoslovakia offered a social net so that everyone had access to basics like medical treatment and education, the political differences between them meant that in Britain anyone had the opportunity to become wealthy and improve their standard of living with enough determination and hard work, but in Czechoslovakia this would have been extremely unlikely. How many Czech, or for that matter Polish or Hungarian or Romanian, etc millionaires do we hear about from that era?
Czechoslovakia had a reasonable standard of living before WWII and was considered one of the more powerful countries in Eastern Europe. The fact that Britain betrayed the Czechs at Munich is something we should be eternally ashamed of, if we had stood with the Czechs when Hitler threatened them then WWII might have been over a lot sooner and communism would never have had a chance to spread throughout Eastern Europe. Can you imagine how prosperous and successful Eastern Europe might have been today if they had been allowed to continue as democracies?
Posted by boto43
Yes u r right as usuall,but it wasnt me who had said to me.A friend of mine from usa told me that we were crazy when we had changed our system.Another note :yeah u r right again with russians tanks but what about yugoslaves and ur and usa bombing.You r wrong with our police.Now we have 5 times more police and red tapes as the times of soc. I think i can compare both systems.I used to live 30 years in soc and now in cap .I don't think this is a subject of the forum lets speak about future of eu. 'Couse it's possible here to lock a thread how was done with irq threads.That's western freedom of speech.
This message was posted from a WAP device
[ This Message was edited by: boto43 on 2004-05-22 13:26 ]
Posted by Vojo
1999 by nato bombs in Serbia&Montenegro kill 1800 civilians, bombs is throw and to marketplace
Posted by Atlis
Btw boto I couldn't find you on the list of candidates to EU parliament! How can we vote for you than? ;-) Somebody said: Capitalism isn't good system, but we don't have better now... :-l
Posted by scotsboyuk
You are correct in saying that we should get back on topic, but before I do I would like to make a few final points. You state that you have more police than ever, but this isn't a bad thing, in fact it is a good thing as long as there are laws defining what the police can and cannot do and to protect the rights of the people. The issue I raised was that the communist regimes had secret police forces, which were pretty much given a free hand to do as they wished.
I would agree with those of you who criticise the bombing of civilians, but unfortunately these things happen in wars, mistakes are made. This isn't to say that it is fine for a few civilians to die in a war, but it is being realistic. I for one am glad that NATO intervened in the Balkans, the situation is far more stable now than it was, although there is still a long way to go.
I for one like the European way of doing things, we don't have the extremes of the U.S. where people have to pay for medical care or such like. We should count our blessings that we live in a part of the world that is incredibly rich, even if that wealth hasn't been evenly distributed yet, and which is, for the most part, democratic and free.
I think that the EU itself can be seen to have accomplished much of Europe's present day success. The main problem in Europe has always been rivalries between the great powers i.e. Britain, France, and Germany and at one time Spain. What the EU has done is to make these nations work together and as a result we have had the greatest period of growth and success in Europe since the heyday of the Roman Empire.
The former communist countries have a long way to go before they reach Western standards of development, but at the very least they are now able to do so in a climate of friendship and support.
_________________
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC
[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2004-05-24 02:43 ]
Posted by boto43
@Atlis how did you search for me .I am there! Check all first name Boris.
I dont supose to be EU parliament - I am afraid. You dont have to vote
for me.
@Scot finally end.
PPL what do u think if we organize Europe esatonians meeting.
_________________
Love toshiba
& 
hope they dont destroy my life 
[ This Message was edited by: boto43 on 2004-05-22 14:38 ]
Posted by michka
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Sorry man, but this is only a materialistic view. How about human relations and culture?
Posted by Jim
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taxidriver in Brussels didn't know where Russia or China is... |
Oh come one, please .......!!!!!
Posted by michka
Yeah, and during my military service I worked in a US camp: some didn't know where Canada is.
Don't generalize, man.
Posted by Vojo
Scotsboyuk, What you want on nato bombarding Yugoslavia? NOTHING, you are watching on TV BBC, SKY NEWS... nato bombarding, bat of course that is falsehood, BBC, SKY NEWS HIDE TRUTH!!!
Posted by Sammy_boy
@michka- that's the point I've also been making- taking into account family values and crime thats committed- is life in these eastern bloc countries better than the richer uk? @boto, @atlis etc. what do you think?
Apologies btw if l'm slightly off topic
Posted by scotsboyuk
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I mentioned social conditions in my explanation e.g. culture and traditions, religious policies, etc
@ Vojo
I am in favour of military intervention when it is necessary. Serbian and Montenegrian forces had been fighting each other in an increasingly bitter conflict that threatened to turn into another all out Balklan conflict. NATO intervened because the Montenegrian people were caught up in the conflict, peace and the rule of law had to be restored.
In my opinion the powerful nations of the world have a duty to protect the weak. The Serbian regime was a nationalistic government intent on keeping what was left of Yugoslavia together by any means necessary. I think NATO was quite right to intervene when it did, we must learn from our mistakes, just look at the Rhineland in 1936 or the Sudatenland in 1939, we stood by and let it all happen.
Your point regarding the media is an important one, but a bit of a generalisation. The television media in the UK is, on the whole, fair. The BBC in particular is regarded as being one of the most impartial media organisations in the world. The recent judicial critcism of the BBC was reported on by the BBC in a very honest and open manner. The newspapers are the really manipulative media and have overt political agendas, thankfully most people take them with a pinch of salt.
Posted by Vojo
Iraq bombarding 1-2weeks, Avganistan 2-3 weeks, and Yugoslaviu 78 days
Posted by Vojo
Scotsboyuk, forget NATO bombarding Yugoslaviu, life flows away. Who is watching EURO SONG 2004 in Istambul and who is second?
Posted by Payalnik
What a pity that our goverment is so greedy and we don't have a good standard of living and laws to join EU! That means i can't drink beer with u mates :-(
Posted by boto43
No no, u can drink beer with us.U r welcome.
Guys my god this is not thread about bombing of Yugoslavia,Afganistan
or Iraq.
We would like to build a new Europe without bombing I hope.
btw I think scot can be a novelist.Its a novel from him here.But thats
ok.
_________________
Love toshiba
& hope they dont destroy my life [ This Message was edited by: boto43 on 2004-05-22 20:44 ]
Posted by Sammy_boy
It would be great to have all the countries in europe as close trading partners, but still independent entities. I think each countrie's uniqueness, and their cultures & traditions should be celebrated, I'm not sure that would happen in a federal Europe
Posted by boto43
hope it must happen.all eu countries must cooperate much closer now
Posted by michka
Scot> I simply meant to pinpoint that the definition is highly subjective. And as such, has a great chance of not being agreed on by everyone.
Posted by boto43
who are the next candidate to join to eu? ppl who knows it?
[ This Message was edited by: boto43 on 2004-05-23 12:15 ]
Posted by Sammy_boy
It would be good to see Russia joining the EU, as they are technically part of Europe. Are Turkey joining already? If not, are they eligable?
I wonder if the EU would eventually expand to outside europe - e.g. Israel, Kazakhstan, etc.?
Posted by boto43
Russia will never be part of eu. Russia is too big they are still super power. Muslims ? I don't know but I would be more than careful with them. I think next candidate for joining to eu are Bulgaria and Romania maybe Croatia and Serbia.
Posted by Atlis
@boto - there's only Zala...
Posted by Steve_Hun
Yes, the next candidates are Romania, Bulgaria, Croatia & Turkey!
Europe day is 9th may, and the elections will be on 13th june in Hungary!
Steve
Posted by Elrond
I agree with boto. Russia will never be part of EU. They are powerfull and big state.
Posted by boto43
Steve welcome back in EU forum
Posted by Sammy_boy
Russia aren't as powerful as the were though, although they do still have their space programme, I guess. Which is more than the UK - we've never had a space programme - unless you count Beagle 2....
Just think though - the EU would stretch right from Ireland all the way to the international date line then!
But yes, thinking about it the next countries to join the EU would be countries like Serbia, Croatia, Bulgaria, Romania. From what I can gather Russia has a lot of problems with corruption and organised crime at the moment.
Posted by boto43
@samy what do u know about bribery and organized crime in Russia.
Have you ever been there?
Some1 told us during times of socialism the same about UK and USA.
Now who was wrong.
Ive been to Russia and Usa but I dont know I cant say it.
Posted by Payalnik
If Russian government was slightly better and wiser, and if it was not full of former KGB agents, it could make Russia a better place. But now we should not think of EU membership.
Posted by boto43
Who is better agent KGB or FBI or CIA. I dont know.Think,theyre the same.
Posted by Sammy_boy
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You're right, I've not been there, which is why I put 'from what I can gather' before my statement, which means I'm not 100% certain - I guess @payalnik would be able to comment more accurately than me.
And I certainly wouldn't suggest the UK government is squeaky clean, probably far from it in fact! There a lot of things wrong over here, some of which I pointed out in an earlier reply.
I tell you what, @boto43, this thread's warming up nicely now isn't it!
Some good debates and comments, I hope this is what you wanted from this thread - let me know btw if I go off topic or stray a bit too much! 
Posted by boto43
@ Sammy you are always welcome in this forum.And You arent off topic.This is not only EU forum but East and West contact and thats more than EU.
Posted by Steve_Hun
What you guys think about the membership of Turkey? I've been there 2 times, and I think they are as much Europeans as I am! (And I think that I'm a fully European citizen
)!
Steve
Posted by Sammy_boy
@boto43:
I am interested in seeing what people from Eastern Europe have to say, their opinions, and their take on life. It's interesting seeing how each nationality sees things and how opinions differ on things like politics and international affairs. I try not to get news from one source, as no matter what they say, there will always be some bias in it somewhere. I have a short-wave radio, and like playing with that, listening to some of the english broadcasts from other countries' equivalents of the BBC World Service.
I would like to see Turkey in the EU - but have heard a little about human rights abuses there - if that's true (I wouldn't know for sure, not been there yet), that would need to be sorted out. It does however look to be a nice country, with a rich history, and it also borders Europe and the Middle East, so it would be quite strategic also.
Posted by Vojo
Were not we, didn't SERBIA for EU, we are already at Europe. Russia&China anon shall became the force states the world. Go for SERBIA, Russia, China, Hungaru...
Posted by boto43
Ive been twice in muslim country (Turkey and Tunisia).But I didnt feel fine there.I dont know why. I think they are different as Europeans.
Thats maybe religion or culture or way of life.
Posted by Steve_Hun
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Sorry, but I can't understand you!
Steve
Posted by Steve_Hun
I've never been to Tunesia, but my parents! I know that it is a "real" muslim country! But Istanbul & Tekirdag (the two Turkish city where I've been) are quite the same as Hungarian cities! (Of corse in Hungary there aren't so many mosque!
) Turkish ppl are very friendly and direct! I've loved the tea that they drink all day long! Economically they are a western-style country, and nowadays who cares about your religion? IMHO it is your own business! BTW I'm not muslim, I'm a protestant!
Steve
Posted by Vojo
Steve, I speak a little english, where is Hungary in EURO SONG 2004
Posted by Payalnik
For the democracy in Russia, we do not know the truth about the presidential elections, about the terrorists and other. There is no independent tv channel. And we are tired of traffic jams when the goverment stops the cars to travel to Kremlin, and so on and so forth...
Posted by Steve_Hun
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Vojo! Unfortunately no Hungarians were in the Eurovision Song Contest!
Steve
Posted by Vojo
I'm orthodox, Steve what you think on SERBIA
Posted by Gezza
Hi ppl. I live in Hungary and I like seeing Europe embracing the former SU 'satelite' countries. However, I object to opening up 2 Arabic & Asian contries. They should make their alliance of their own and acc. 2 their taste. Hope Russia will always stay out. We may forgive but will never forget.