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• Sony Ericsson Xperia Active
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• Sony Ericsson Xperia X10
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• Sony Ericsson Xperia X10 Mini Pro
• Sony Ericsson Xperia X2
• Sony Ericsson Xperia X8

SONY XPERIA Rumors 2014


Click to view updated thread with images




Posted by amirprog
^^
I still think that sony won't announce any z device at ces, "z3 tablet" is just a temporary name for z4 tablet official name to be announced at mwc with z4 and that there won't be new z ultra in q1.


Posted by ascariss
@xperiazultra

Snapdragon 810 will not be ready by CES or at least not for shipping in the near term. Sony can show off a device but it may not be until late feb, march or even april before it would ship, this would be suicide. Sony used to do this with their devices, they cannot go back to such a trend.

Posted by XperiaJunkie
^ I think you've hit the nail on the head there mate. MWC is the one for Sony to announce a new range of flagship devices, I think it's almost a dead cert we'll see the Z4 along with a new tablet both using the SD810 with both devices ready for sale in a matter of weeks not months.

I also wonder what the chances are in Sony adding a flash for the front facing camera just like they did on the C3 as I would expect the resolution to be bumped up to a 5MP wide angle lens as this "Selfie" craze is getting worse lol.
[ This Message was edited by: XperiaJunkie on 2014-10-26 18:25 ]


Posted by nodarsixar
:D https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COI0dlC4WZw

Posted by hihihans
@nodar This is supposed to be a Xperia thread.

Posted by xperiazultra
I don't know. They caught attention with the Z3 series marketing. Maybe they won't abandon the hype. Demand Great kind of caught fire. I think it's hard for Sony's marketing team. I believe a phablet will exist in Q1 maybe Q2. Since the real chip is SD810 and it will be available by then. No need to wait for IFA.

Posted by Shino03

On 2014-10-26 13:19:10, milukugiuniu wrote:
Z3 Tablet 10.1"IPS-Black Motionflow XR 120 2X2GB RAM 2.8 GHz Qualcomm Snapdragon 810 2560x1600 DSEE HX/Hi-Res 8MP-Front-facing Camera,24mm F1.4 G Lens,ISO 25600,1/2.33 Exmor RS 20MP-Primary Camera,25mm F2.0/F4.0 G Lens,ISO 12800,1/2.33 Exmor RS 8600mAh Battery 8.6 mm thick


Will it have the new curved sensor? I really want to know if that sensor will marginally improved image quality as I don't want to wait to long to buy a new phone if it's just nothing.

Posted by josephnero
@Shino03
It's not only the sensor.if you have Z or something better,i would say Snapdragon 810 itself is worth the wait,Curved sensor is the icing on the cake.if not buy Z2 or Z3 and wait for Z5

Posted by XperiaJunkie
Hi all, just a quick question for anyone who knows their camera tech. Will the new curved sensor actually make a noticable difference in comparison as to what Sony use now or will it just be pixel peepers that will be able to tell the difference. ?

Posted by goldenface
It will mean less blurring in the corners of the pictures, is that right?

Posted by miromiromi
I remember these supposed advantages: thinner camera module since it fewer lenses will be needed to correct distortions, around 3x greater light sensitivity on the sides and corners of the sensor, and a bit of enhanced sensitivity at the center.

I don't remember any promise of better image quality. I just wish we could get samples of that weird perfume bottle shaped selfie camera released recently.

Posted by Ricky D
The curved sensor should mean fewer lens components are needed and therefore will potentially be thinner.

This in turn means that the sensor could either be placed behind the screen for the same thickness of phone or (more likely) the handset on the whole could be thinner.

Posted by Xajel
@miromiromi

Even if the sensor was better, Sony will need some time to master the software, same as when the first launched the 20.7 MP sensor... it was worse and some people hated it actually.. but after few updates ( and phones also ) the software matured enough and quality jumped

Posted by itsjustJOH
They are just going to waste their good hardware if they still can't figure out their software.

Here's a very technical view from an XDA member on why Sony's 20 MP Xperia is just ON PAR with an iPhone.

Comparison: iPhone5 vs Z3


[ This Message was edited by: itsjustJOH on 2014-10-28 13:24 ]


Posted by testarlol

On 2014-10-25 23:52:21, Hilmawan wrote:
New display prototype from JDI.
http://www.j-display.com/english/news/2014/20141023.html

More LCD garbage. The way things are going display-wise my Xperia Z1 Compact will probably be my last Sony phone. The Google Nexus 6 looks great.

Posted by randomuser
I would have to disagree there. Sony's image processing has improved by leaps and bounds with the Xperia Z3 and GSMArena photo compare tool does show that very well. I do not think there is any other Android device out there right now that can beat the Z3 camera, including the iPhone 6 and iPhone 6 Plus.


Posted by testarlol
I found a very interesting post regarding the Z3X on the Weibo page of "itlao9", who appears to have sources close to him working at Sony.


索尼Z3X今年不会上市,目前仅是概念阶段,屏幕和相机CMOS都未能足够的量产。即便明年中期推出,也算得上旗舰手机。
9 -30 17:09 来自 微博 weibo.com


Translates to:

Sony Z3X not be listed this year, is currently only a concept stage, screen and camera CMOS failed sufficient volume production. Even mid-launched next year, is also regarded as the flagship phone.


Link: http://weibo.com/5284920182/B[....]r=6&mod=weibotime&type=comment (reguires Weibo-login)

There is also info about the Z4:

根据我索尼工作的朋友透露,索尼Z4已经在研发中,会采用2K分辨率屏幕。其他配置本博会持续曝光![汗]Z4屏幕很大...
9 -28 09:55 来自 微博 weibo.com


Translates to:

Based on my work friend said Sony, Sony Z4 has been in research and development, will use 2K resolution screen. Other configurations of the Fair continued exposure! Great [Khan] Z4 screen ...


Link: http://weibo.com/5284920182/B[....]82_profile&wvr=6&mod=weibotime

Posted by rss_ndrsn
@itsjustOH I agree with you. The pics that were taken using Xperia Z3 could be way better. I am not really sure why Sony cant seem to get their camera software right even though they managed to port steadyshot software properly to android. I really hope that Android 5.0 update comes with solutions to the following camera issues that plaguing Z1-Z3 phones:
- slow auto-focus
- over-exposure and inaccurate white balance
- over-processing of photos and videos
- poor HDR and panorama modes
- laggy AR/creative effects software
- poor stereo audio recording
I think Sony's camera sensors, especially the ones found on Z3 and Z3 compact, are really capable. It seems maybe their software engineers have not had much time in perfecting the the Z-series' camera software as the changes in Sony Mobile are going too fast, like Sony buying Ericsson's stake to get full ownership of SE and pressure to produce phones quickly. I hope Sony was just setting up the foundations for their Mobile division and was catching up on features that their top tier phones were lacking. If you look at the software features that Sony's android phones have now, they can match or even exceed what the competition has to offer. I really hope that next year when android 5.0 comes to Z-series, we can finally see the true capability of the hardware inside the Z flagship phones!


Posted by alexander87
I think you just got 2 points right, that being the panorama mode and hdr modes, did you use a late xperia model?

Their white balance setup is spot on and no over exposure either, poor stereo audio? Z3 is way better in this department, the Z2 is kinda bad at it atm...use, analyse by yourself = then draw conclusions. don't just use the internet.

btw if someone wants a comparison between i6 and Z2 on photos, lemme know! I have both sitting on my table atm.

Posted by Xajel
I feel that one of the main reasons is the bad-reputation idea of two-flagships per year, Sony will not have enough time to focus on one device as the engineers will need to work on another device... cutting the time left for optimising and perfecting the software...

having only few flagships with the exact same hardware, and now with the same kernel also will give the engineers the required time to work more on the software side... having one platform to serve multiple markets is very nice.. the compact, normal, tablet compact and tablet ( and also we might want to add the ultra ) all are wonderful devices and very similar in hardware so Sony can use one kernel and almost the same software also for all.. this will make it faster and allow more time to work on the software side.

Posted by xperiazultra

On 2014-10-29 07:57:31, testarlol wrote:
I found a very interesting post regarding the Z3X on the Weibo page of "itlao9", who appears to have sources close to him working at Sony.


索尼Z3X今年不会上市,目前仅是概念阶段,屏幕和相机CMOS都未能足够的量产。即便明年中期推出,也算得上旗舰手机。
9 -30 17:09 来自 微博 weibo.com


Translates to:

Sony Z3X not be listed this year, is currently only a concept stage, screen and camera CMOS failed sufficient volume production. Even mid-launched next year, is also regarded as the flagship phone.


Link: http://weibo.com/5284920182/B[....]r=6&mod=weibotime&type=comment (reguires Weibo-login)

There is also info about the Z4:

根据我索尼工作的朋友透露,索尼Z4已经在研发中,会采用2K分辨率屏幕。其他配置本博会持续曝光![汗]Z4屏幕很大...
9 -28 09:55 来自 微博 weibo.com


Translates to:

Based on my work friend said Sony, Sony Z4 has been in research and development, will use 2K resolution screen. Other configurations of the Fair continued exposure! Great [Khan] Z4 screen ...


Link: http://weibo.com/5284920182/B[....]82_profile&wvr=6&mod=weibotime

So Z3X is not for 2015? Did people ask anything about a phablet or such?

Posted by MNX1024

On 2014-10-29 08:26:11, rss_ndrsn wrote:
I am not really sure why Sony cant seem to get their camera software right even though they managed to port steadyshot software properly to android.


This has to do with their JPEG engine, it's also notorious on their top of the line ILC's....... Though their RAW are very nice due to their excellent sensors!

Posted by itsjustJOH
The main problem with their software is their denoising algorithm. If what I believe is true (refer to my last post), the software blurs out the color components (Cb and Cr) to hide the chroma noise and then (fake) sharpen the picture. That seems the case since the pictures from the unlocked bootloader has more details but with more noise, so their denoising algorithm might be protected by DRM as well as other things it seems (rooting degrades video and audio quality, enhancements like X-Reality and Clear Audio don't work, while some users also report PS4 remote play not functioning).

Perhaps now we know and they should as well that their software shows its weakness when used in smaller camera sensors. It could have been the reason why the Z took awful shots, they probably just slapped the software from their cameras thinking it would magically work. A lot of people say that they had improved the software since the Z, that seems the case but it's almost 2 years now and they are still behind considering their "camera expertise". It's a shame that a 20 MP camera is only comparable to an 8 MP camera.

Posted by Gitaroo
got to wait Android L update to see the real quality of the sensor then, since it suppose to support RAW.

Posted by Wintermute
I have faith in Sony's optical guys. They'll sort it out. Does anyone know if the guys working on the Xperia camera software are the same guys who do the software for the NEX and Alpha cameras? Maybe they're just not fully integrated yet. "One Sony" might still be a work in progress.

Posted by Gitaroo
if we can trust ZOMG, he said that the Alpha team is deeply involve in the Camera portion of Z3, which is also why we got a huge boost in quality? I suspecting most of the camera software for Z1 and Z2 are still being handled by the regular software team and just taking stuffs from the standard UI from their camera division and stuffs like steadyshots and they way the social camera UI works seems like they are just a bunch of plugin's they add into the phone software.


Posted by josephnero
Weird perfume bottle Camera samples someone asked for:
http://www.eprice.com.tw/tech/talk/1187/4905514/1/

Posted by Xajel
Being that Z4 will launch with Android 5.0, I just hope developers will quickly find a way to root it without unlocking the bootloader

Posted by itsjustJOH

On 2014-10-29 18:48:02, Gitaroo wrote:
if we can trust ZOMG, he said that the Alpha team is deeply involve in the Camera portion of Z3, which is also why we got a huge boost in quality? I suspecting most of the camera software for Z1 and Z2 are still being handled by the regular software team and just taking stuffs from the standard UI from their camera division and stuffs like steadyshots and they way the social camera UI works seems like they are just a bunch of plugin's they add into the phone software.


IMO the Z2 software is the best, much better in low light than Z3 but marred by the random blurring which I suspect is a hardware problem.


On 2014-10-30 08:27:29, Xajel wrote:
Being that Z4 will launch with Android 5.0, I just hope developers will quickly find a way to root it without unlocking the bootloader



Devs say 5.0 might break apps requiring root, or that actually rooting a 5.0 device would be much harder.

Posted by Xajel
^^^

This is what i'm afraid of, for me there's two reasons for rooting, software backup ( Titanium backup ) and few mods I use some times...

But AFAIK, the concept of root will change in Android 5.0, it's not like it will be harder, but rather rooting will not give you all the freedom that you have in current versions...

Posted by josephnero
@Xajel
One of important reasons for me is installing Xposed Framework

New mobile depatment boss:Hiroki Totoki
http://www.androidauthority.com/sony-new-mobile-boss-545106/

8 Inch 4K 2K display by JDI


http://www.j-display.com/english/news/2014/20141028.html
[ This Message was edited by: josephnero on 2014-10-30 14:32 ]


Posted by MNX1024
Looks like Kunimasa Suzuki is finally getting the boot.......

http://www.reuters.com/articl[....]artphone-idUSKBN0IJ0NF20141030
[ This Message was edited by: MNX1024 on 2014-10-30 15:10 ]


Posted by itsjustJOH
He did good but they needed better, yet kudos Kunimasa san!

Posted by supercoolman

On 2014-10-29 06:58:13, randomuser wrote:
I would have to disagree there. Sony's image processing has improved by leaps and bounds with the Xperia Z3 and GSMArena photo compare tool does show that very well. I do not think there is any other Android device out there right now that can beat the Z3 camera, including the iPhone 6 and iPhone 6 Plus.



low light shots are still pretty bad.

Posted by Ebato

On 2014-10-30 16:08:12, MNX1024 wrote:
Looks like Kunimasa Suzuki is finally getting the boot.......

http://www.reuters.com/articl[....]artphone-idUSKBN0IJ0NF20141030
[ This Message was edited by: MNX1024 on 2014-10-30 15:10 ]



Good. I said it like 200 pages ago, Suzuki is an idiot, his futile resistance to WP was pathetic. Sadly it took too long to figure out. Sony WP phone in 2015, alongside 12" Sony tablet hybrid with win 8 and broadwell/skylake and we can talk again, Sony.

Posted by Wintermute
Yeah, that's what Sony needs, Windows. /s

Jesus Christ, I can't believe anybody not being paid by Microsoft is calling for this. If they do it, they need to start a new line of phones, and not pollute the Xperia line with Windows.

Posted by cu015170

On 2014-10-31 03:08:47, Ebato wrote:
Good. I said it like 200 pages ago, Suzuki is an idiot, his futile resistance to WP was pathetic. Sadly it took too long to figure out. Sony WP phone in 2015, alongside 12" Sony tablet hybrid with win 8 and broadwell/skylake and we can talk again, Sony.


At that point the hybrid device would have to be Win10 which is shaping up nicely.. I like the direction they are going for hybrid 2in1 machines





I still think that they rushed with the Vaio sale.. it had such a strong brand name and a solid engineering team behind it.. they could've waited out the "post pc" craze and gone back once he PC market stabilizes, which seems to be the case.

As far as the phone.. Sony might be waiting for W10 as well.. the cost for producing WP will be very small since it can run on the same hardware, its free, and they won't have to pay any licensing fees for it.

Posted by Gitaroo
not rush, more like too slow, they got to so something to show they share holders that they are actually doing something. Not big lost, I think they can get back into the business when they are doing better with their cash flow and use the Xperia brand instead and only get into the ultrabook casual market.

Posted by unknownC151A
Sony sold 9.9 million phones this q, 0.1 million less compared to previous quarter last year.

Posted by Ebato

On 2014-10-31 04:18:05, Wintermute wrote:
Yeah, that's what Sony needs, Windows. /s

Jesus Christ, I can't believe anybody not being paid by Microsoft is calling for this. If they do it, they need to start a new line of phones, and not pollute the Xperia line with Windows.


Lagdroid, how has it worked out for sony? Sure very well /s

Yes win phone 10 and win 10 for tablets is the way to go. The only alternative to being crushed in the android space with Sony's miserable 2-4% market share. Win phone is growing in double digit numbers in Europe, Sony's key market, so I see no reason not to offer a few phones with the new OS. Suzuki was the main stopping force, bending over to google, thinking this loyalty will make them any good. Guess what, they've never bothered to offer Sony to produce any nexus devices, they showed them zero support. Microsoft on the other hand is making billions and is not going anywhere any time soon. They need partners, they have the money, they have the patents and the marketing muscle. Yes Sony competes with them in the gaming console business. But it's business, never personal, considering Sony is fighting for survival now and have no options left if you look close enough.
[ This Message was edited by: Ebato on 2014-10-31 06:59 ]


Posted by Felimenta97
Well, actually Sony said they didn't wanted to make a Nexus at the time, as they were asked to do so. So, Google contacted them. Sony refused.
Also, I can only see thousands of Sony fans leaving Sony if they go full Windows Phone. And, you said it's the way to go? Let's do some math. Let's consider that, if Sony goes full Windows Phone, and Microsoft allows them to eat 30% of the WP market, which I don't think will happen. WP as a worldwide 3 or 4% market share. Let's consider that Sony has 3 or 4% of the world brand share, and not Android only. If Sony gets those 30% from MS, they would go from 3% to 0.9%. I can't see that being a good number.

Posted by XperiaJunkie
Some positive news on the sales front as Sony snatch 3rd spot from Nokia in the UK.
http://www.mobiletoday.co.uk/[....]-number-3-spot-from-nokia.aspx

Posted by MNX1024

On 2014-10-31 04:18:05, Wintermute wrote:
If they do it, they need to start a new line of phones, and not pollute the Xperia line with Windows.


You do know that Xperia was originally developed with Windows, right? X1, remember? Aaah.... That was the good ol days.

Posted by Gitaroo

On 2014-10-31 07:53:44, Ebato wrote:

On 2014-10-31 04:18:05, Wintermute wrote:
Yeah, that's what Sony needs, Windows. /s

Jesus Christ, I can't believe anybody not being paid by Microsoft is calling for this. If they do it, they need to start a new line of phones, and not pollute the Xperia line with Windows.


Lagdroid, how has it worked out for sony? Sure very well /s

Yes win phone 10 and win 10 for tablets is the way to go. The only alternative to being crushed in the android space with Sony's miserable 2-4% market share. Win phone is growing in double digit numbers in Europe, Sony's key market, so I see no reason not to offer a few phones with the new OS. Suzuki was the main stopping force, bending over to google, thinking this loyalty will make them any good. Guess what, they've never bothered to offer Sony to produce any nexus devices, they showed them zero support. Microsoft on the other hand is making billions and is not going anywhere any time soon. They need partners, they have the money, they have the patents and the marketing muscle. Yes Sony competes with them in the gaming console business. But it's business, never personal, considering Sony is fighting for survival now and have no options left if you look close enough.
[ This Message was edited by: Ebato on 2014-10-31 06:59 ]



I think MS billions of dollars revenue are mainly coming from Windows and Office stuffs, they are pretty much tanking on everything else. Jumping on Windows phone probably make Sony tank faster unless they get a 1 billion dollar pay off from MS, then its worth the risk. Right now the only thing Sony can do with the mobile division is to make sure they strengthen their marketing in their strong region and expand in the US. For countries like China their only option is to make alternative models of their flagship with plastic material to compete with Xiaomi pricing.

Posted by cu015170

On 2014-10-31 14:44:57, Gitaroo wrote:
I think MS billions of dollars revenue are mainly coming from Windows and Office stuffs, they are pretty much tanking on everything else.


You are clearly not familiar with their business model.. Microsoft is doing very well overall, certainly a lot better than Sony. To think that Microsoft is only Windows and Office is rather ignorant.

http://www.microsoft.com/Inve[....]ndWebcast/FY15/Q1/default.aspx

Its also reflected in their stock price and market capitalization in past year, and if everything else was "tanking" like you suggest, this would be impossible.





And then look at their market caps, I don't even see Sony in the top 10

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/[....]tions_by_market_capitalization



My worry about Sony's corporate health is based on their performance.. its not looking great




Posted by Wintermute

On 2014-10-31 07:53:44, Ebato wrote:

On 2014-10-31 04:18:05, Wintermute wrote:
Yeah, that's what Sony needs, Windows. /s

Jesus Christ, I can't believe anybody not being paid by Microsoft is calling for this. If they do it, they need to start a new line of phones, and not pollute the Xperia line with Windows.


Lagdroid, how has it worked out for sony? Sure very well /s

Yes win phone 10 and win 10 for tablets is the way to go. The only alternative to being crushed in the android space with Sony's miserable 2-4% market share. Win phone is growing in double digit numbers in Europe, Sony's key market, so I see no reason not to offer a few phones with the new OS. Suzuki was the main stopping force, bending over to google, thinking this loyalty will make them any good. Guess what, they've never bothered to offer Sony to produce any nexus devices, they showed them zero support. Microsoft on the other hand is making billions and is not going anywhere any time soon. They need partners, they have the money, they have the patents and the marketing muscle. Yes Sony competes with them in the gaming console business. But it's business, never personal, considering Sony is fighting for survival now and have no options left if you look close enough.
[ This Message was edited by: Ebato on 2014-10-31 06:59 ]



"Lagdroid?" If you don't like Android, you need to GTFO. Xperia uses Android. And I don't know about you, but my Android phones all work better than my Windows PCs. "Lagdroid?" Do people still say this? Now that Android is by far the most successful operating system in the world?

Windows phone is a rounding error compared to Android. Face it, WP has failed. It hasn't managed to crack 5% market share in the US in over 4 years despite Microsoft paying people to develop for it, despite them giving the phones away. If you think moving from the OS with 70% market share to the OS with 4% market share will do Sony any favors at all, then the only thing I have to say is, there's a good reason you're not calling the shots at a major corporation.

Posted by Wintermute

On 2014-10-31 14:22:02, MNX1024 wrote:

On 2014-10-31 04:18:05, Wintermute wrote:
If they do it, they need to start a new line of phones, and not pollute the Xperia line with Windows.


Right, but that was in like, 2009 or something. WAY before Xperia became what it is today--an established brand known for quality Android phones. Like it or not, Xperia is associated with Android.
You do know that Xperia was originally developed with Windows, right? X1, remember? Aaah.... That was the good ol days.


Posted by testarlol

On 2014-10-31 17:57:31, cu015170 wrote:

On 2014-10-31 14:44:57, Gitaroo wrote:
I think MS billions of dollars revenue are mainly coming from Windows and Office stuffs, they are pretty much tanking on everything else.


You are clearly not familiar with their business model.. Microsoft is doing very well overall, certainly a lot better than Sony. To think that Microsoft is only Windows and Office is rather ignorant.

http://www.microsoft.com/Inve[....]ndWebcast/FY15/Q1/default.aspx

Its also reflected in their stock price and market capitalization in past year, and if everything else was "tanking" like you suggest, this would be impossible.





And then look at their market caps, I don't even see Sony in the top 10

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/[....]tions_by_market_capitalization



My worry about Sony's corporate health is based on their performance.. its not looking great




Is this a joke? Are you aware that Microsoft is the largest and one of the most profitable software companies in the world with a market share of about 90% in consumer PC and corporate client operating systems, that it dominates the market in office suites with its Office package, and that it has a significant presence in server operating systems, database and other back office/enterprise software, cloud services etc. That's before you even start counting the Xbox, the Bing search engine and the "Microsoft Mobile" divisions (though the latter isn't exactly going very well for Microsoft). How exactly can a comparison be made on a market cap basis with Sony, which is a completely different company and doesn't even operate in the businesses where Microsoft makes the vast majority of their profits?

And yes, Gitaroo is certainly correct when he states that only a very small part of Microsoft's revenues comes from their highly unsuccesful venture into mobile phones and tablets (their first two Surface tablets even resulted in billion-dollar write-offs for Microsoft). If the stock market wasn't highly aware that these businesses are for the time being not critical for Microsoft's revenue stream and profitability, they would be avoiding the stock like the plague exactly as Gitaroo suggests.

To abandon Android, the dominant mobile operating system, for Windows, which is struggling to maintain over 4% market share in the mobile space, would be suicidial; just like Nokia's partnership with Microsoft turned out to be suicidial, as everyone with a brain was able to predict.
[ This Message was edited by: testarlol on 2014-10-31 17:48 ]


Posted by Tsepz_GP


Has ANY manufacturer been successful in WP without Microsoft having to pump millions and even billions into them?
The Lumia phones are great but lets be real here, WP hasn't been much of a succes.



Posted by Gitaroo
people that has been saying that Sony should jump on the Windows phones bandwagon are basically out of their mind, and hardcore WP fanboys. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that is a sinking ship, actually I dont think it ever float before. It user base can grow 100 times next year and stilll a joke compare to android. Glad those people don't don't Sony mobile, they will probably end up even worse than what they are at now. Only thing they can do is try to figure out how to reach their mass market like US and India. China is too hard because of the chinese brand and their dirt cheap price.


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