Posted by karim128
I'm sorry but what you wrote is just pure gibberish.
the S800 is an between the A9 and A15 its not even an A15, so like i said its a half gen behind.
Qualcomm make his own custom cores whereas A15 is designed by ARM, so how can the S800 be an A15? It's like saying an Radeon R9-290X is not even a GeForce 780. And how can it be half a gen behind when it is as powerful but uses much, much less energy? Why are Tegra 4, based on A15, used in much less devices than S800 and S600?
Q has nothing but market share holding them up.. if it wasnt for the perception from the first 1ghz soc, theyd be as popular as nvidia..
If you have seen how Tegra market share been divided by 4 this year, you wouldn't have said that... Perception and marketshare doesn't last and doesn't explain success.
plus their node is several generations behind 28nm.
They have been the very first with 28nm on mobile, ever since the S4 which was in Sony Xperia T.
i dont expect them to have a 14nm node ready the way samsung is skipping a whole node to catch up to apples ideas..
You do know that Samsung manufactures Apple's SoC's, right? How can they be catching up to Apple with a process node? They are catching up with Intel. Besides, going to smaller nodes is hardly an idea, it's a vague as saying let's make better chips.
they have also been on record denouncing 64bit (the man making those statements has since been reassigned)
The fact that he's been resigned prove that he was the only one at Qualcomm thinking that.
their GPU choice is also a step behind. in terms of CPUs the s800 is widespread but archaic in terms of currently available tech exynos5 (5420 specifically).
They're on par with Apple and better than everyone else. Exynos 5 only compares with S600, but is way behind S800.
[ This Message was edited by: karim128 on 2013-11-10 22:54 ]
Posted by hihihans
How about if we get back to rumours of Xperia phone's.
Posted by >500
Possible new Xperia for 2014 or just an old Z1 frame?
http://sonyviet.vn/2013/11/lo[....]ria-hoan-toan-moi-xperia-2014/
Translation:
http://translate.google.com/t[....]oan-moi-xperia-2014%2F&act=url
Posted by reeflotz
^
I'm guessing might be the rumored Z1s which the smaller version of Z1 (although it seems quite large), or might be a Z1 refresh
because it looks very similar indeed.
I think the 2014 flagship might be a different design, just like Sony making design changes every year. Hoping any insiders here please shed some light, no more leakage policy seems to be in deep effect
[ This Message was edited by: reeflotz on 2013-11-11 01:16 ]
Posted by vivftp
Hmm, interesting that they're gonig for a smaller overall appearance on the speakers on the bottom of that unit. Plus what's that on the top of the unit along with the headphone hole? Possible IR blaster?
Posted by my ninja
On 2013-11-10 23:52:27, karim128 wrote:
I'm sorry but what you wrote is just pure gibberish.
the S800 is an between the A9 and A15 its not even an A15, so like i said its a half gen behind.
Qualcomm make his own custom cores whereas A15 is designed by ARM, so how can the S800 be an A15? It's like saying an Radeon R9-290X is not even a GeForce 780. And how can it be half a gen behind when it is as powerful but uses much, much less energy? Why are Tegra 4, based on A15, used in much less devices than S800 and S600?
Q has nothing but market share holding them up.. if it wasnt for the perception from the first 1ghz soc, theyd be as popular as nvidia..
If you have seen how Tegra market share been divided by 4 this year, you wouldn't have said that... Perception and marketshare doesn't last and doesn't explain success.
plus their node is several generations behind 28nm.
They have been the very first with 28nm on mobile, ever since the S4 which was in Sony Xperia T.
i dont expect them to have a 14nm node ready the way samsung is skipping a whole node to catch up to apples ideas..
You do know that Samsung manufactures Apple's SoC's, right? How can they be catching up to Apple with a process node? They are catching up with Intel. Besides, going to smaller nodes is hardly an idea, it's a vague as saying let's make better chips.
they have also been on record denouncing 64bit (the man making those statements has since been reassigned)
The fact that he's been resigned prove that he was the only one at Qualcomm thinking that.
their GPU choice is also a step behind. in terms of CPUs the s800 is widespread but archaic in terms of currently available tech exynos5 (5420 specifically).
They're on par with Apple and better than everyone else. Exynos 5 only compares with S600, but is way behind S800.
[ This Message was edited by: karim128 on 2013-11-10 22:54 ]
I appreciate your response.
Qualcomm designed their own chips based around the ARMv7 architecture. The Krait CPU from Q is based on an EARLY version of the A15 before it was finalized. It is a 28nm processor.
ARM gets some of their designs from IBM (proxy war with intel)
TI - OMAP = ARM
NVIDIA - Tegra = ARM
Samsung - Exynos = ARM
MediaTek = ARM
Qualcomm - Snapdragon = ARM
These companies license the architecture and design their own individual SoC AROUND their custom ARM CPUs. Who fabricates these is usually TSMC/Samsung they are the largest foundries right now. Intel as we've read has also started to fabricate ARM processors for industrial routers. Intel fabrication is at 14nm (2 fabrication nodes below the S800 @ 28nm, 20nm being the middle step between the two).
Your analogy between ATI and NVIDIA for graphics cards is inapplicable here for this discussion as its irrelevant to the points that were being made. false dichotomy.
Power management is up to the individual firm, my analogy would be that not all chocolate ice cream tastes the same, they are all chocolate but the final product can vary from manufacturer.
Your complaint about the market share is also down to numerous factors but mindshare is a hard thing to break. An example of mindshare would be 'Retina Display' which is not related to any technical metric, however its often associated with the minimum pixel density where the pixels can no longer be seen. People are stuck behind this artificial wall because of perception, it doesnt however make it the best display. Just the ones that people want because of mindshare. Likewise for SoCs... the S800 is in the Snapdragon family, and because they the 'Snapdragon' broke the GHz barrier for smartphones they continue to own mindshares, it isnt to say its a bad SoC its just an old design people dont seem to grasp this. There was a time not too long ago you could only find OMAP chips in smart devices, to the point where TI owned the market in a similar way, where are OMAP chips today?
Qualcomm was not the first to 28nm for the mobile market, thats just blatantly false. TI had OMAP at 28nm in 2010. Qualcomm had test chips out in mid 2011 I believe..
Intel is the first to 14nm, TSMC is at 20nm and may struggle to keep up, the reports say that there are some yield issues, which they will overcome. Samsung is rumored to have skipped the 20nm process in favor for the FinFet 14nm process.
I dont believe that i said that Samsung was going to keep up with apples NODE, but their 64bit gambit in smartpohones, sorry if I was confusing there, i dont really edit these posts (it was late)
Going to another node, "is not an idea" im confused by your rebuttal.. its a billion dollar decision, and in order to succesfully produce tens of millions of cpus it takes a lot of brilliant people.. It is a competitive decision, but technology needs to move forward, i dont see a reason to oppose it.
Chandrasekher has not resigned, unless my news is old, he was reassigned. Still reports to the same ppl.
Like you said, the Samsung family of SoCs are on par with apple because they make them for apple. Your assumption about the whole Exynos 5 family is misplaced. the 5420 is a monstrous CPU that technically performance wise (it would burn you like the sun) is an order higher than the S800. Remember that the S800 Krait Cores are based pre-A15 architecture (ARM had not finalized the designing, Q pushed forward). The 5420 is four A15 and four A7's (updated version of the A8), because Samsungs manufacturing process matured over 2013 they corrected the issues from the 5410, and allowed for CCI/HMP. Simply put it sits atop the S800 but remains shackled and there are several limiting factors, namely the software and Samsungs unwillingness to release kernel information regarding the processor itself. Power management from Q however is second to none, that is ALL them too, as no one else in the industry has achieved the battery life or the charging speed of the S800.
Sorry for the book. Either way next year we will see WQHD screens (2560x1400) and A57/53 based SoC, my point was Q has not released their plan yet (they have them since they were SWIFT to reassign Chandrasekher, but even at the time in his post he wasnt aware of what they were so theres that... ) and they released their roadmap at the end of 2012 (well 2H12) S4/S4Pro/S600/S800.. we havent gotten an updated roadmap, and it appears the people who should know whats coming down the line dont. Sony are more than likely to hit the WQHD (JDI is their subsidiary partnership between sony toshiba and hitachi) but who knows when.. most likely again 2H14 but surprises are nice. Samsung is going full steam ahead they will try to get their new Exynos out for the S5, we will see how that goes because theres a lot there.. But from Samsungs roadmap we see that at least for displays they want to get UHD in devices by 2015.. 14 should be an interesting year like i said.. If Samsung can get their new SoC out, they are very self-concious about their devices and strive for parity regardless of the SoC, if Q doesnt havent a comparable SoC, I HIGHLY doubt they can supply the market in volume with their new SoC. We may see more S800 devices next year.. still it comes down to Google, and Android wrt to Sony/Samsung and these SoC. 3.4 is ancient, and doesnt natively support HMP 3.10 does so i dont know when we will see the update, but once that switch happens the performance gains from bigLittle will be more rewarding.
The future is bright!
Posted by mobisekim
z1+ ?
http://www.ctechcn.com/%E7%B4%A2%E5%B0%BC-new-phone-z1-leak/
[ This Message was edited by: mobisekim on 2013-11-11 08:22 ]
Posted by argiriano
On 2013-11-11 05:24:31, vivftp wrote:
Hmm, interesting that they're gonig for a smaller overall appearance on the speakers on the bottom of that unit. Plus what's that on the top of the unit along with the headphone hole? Possible IR blaster?
A mic for noise cancelation.
The device looks too slim to be Z1f I guess it is some version of Z1.
Posted by XperiaCute
@ mobisekim
I wish this is the International version of Xperia Z1F ..
>
@ my ninja
it is meaningless to have BigLittle HMP or ARM 64bit , since Android kernel don't support them yet
if Samsung would include SoC based on A57/53 in GS5 , it would be just like what Apple has been doing with A7 a 64bit SoC with 1GB of RAM !
unless if they adopt Kernel above ( 4.7 ) , but that unlikely to happen !!
>
[ This Message was edited by: XperiaCute on 2013-11-11 09:56 ]
Posted by Xajel
On 2013-11-10 10:11:10, my ninja wrote:
Qualcomm has NOTHING ready (64bit wise) for 1H14 sorry. the S800 is an between the A9 and A15 its not even an A15, so like i said its a half gen behind. let alone A57/53 that samsung is jumping to (more precisely ARMv8 instruction set) and Q has nothing but market share holding them up.. which in tech is not enough.. plus their node is several generations behind 28nm. in terms of CPUs the s800 is widespread but archaic in terms of currently available tech exynos5 (5420 specifically). they have also been on record denouncing 64bit (the man making those statements has since been reassigned) however the way they announced their chipsets at the end of 12, they havent for 14 in the same way. i dont expect them to have a 14nm node ready the way samsung is skipping a whole node to catch up to apples ideas.. exynos has always been ahead of snapdragon, same with omap(rip).. if it wasnt for the perception from the first 1ghz soc, theyd be as popular as nvidia.. as for scale they have everyone beat and can supply the entire market which is impressive, but that can change quickly, their true anchor is their radio integration less the performance. their GPU choice is also a step behind.
android needs more ram than iOS because of the middle layer of the ecosystem (java/davlik runtime) it creates a HUGE performance hit, where if google JUST used their own release of linux that would alleviate a lot of the 'lag' and short comings of android.
4.4 introduced ART to replace Davlik, so that should be impressive as its the first implementation so in a few iterations it should become the default and have substantial gains, right now they are about the same.. but they still need to get out of the java business and just run a branch of linux, if they did that, android would explode performance wise.. but as of now, android is beholden to its roots.. Id love to see Android 6 like its own version of ubuntu, redhat, or centos.. something without that nagging layer hogging resources.
android needs to update from kernel 3.4.. ffs upstream is at 3.10.. its time.
[ This Message was edited by: my ninja on 2013-11-10 09:19 ]
I didn't say that Q has anything, I said I didn't hear anything 64bit'sh for 1H14, and as you said, it's only a better yields of current products + newer & faster GPU... I know that... but what I said also that I know nothing of any 2H14 plans for Q... so maybe they have something for 2H14 or maybe nothing and we will have to wait till 2015 for anything 64bit...
I know that Qualcomm have their own design of ARM compatible architecture, as you said, based on ARMv7... it's just custom... deeper than what Apple is doing with their A6+A7 SoC... which are based on ARM9/ARM57 designs with some Apple modifications and customisations to increase the ARM9 performance ( as they didn't go to ARM15 )...
While Krait is a not as powerful as A15, it came much earlier than A15, the performance is not that much different between the two, Qualcomm get it in the right time as A15 designs took longer time to mature specially that pure A15 designs are power hungry that's why ARM went for the LITTLE.big idea which combines A15 + A7 cores and switch between them depending on the work load, Krait doesn't need such logic as it has superior power management and can handle different workload... Samsung went for LITTLE.big route but it failed in the first attempt ( that octa in S4 ) as it can't run all the cores in the same time ( so it's not a real octa ) and the driver is faulty to choose the cores depending on the workload, they have a lot of improvements with newer firmwares but still faulty... thats why they designed another SoC which is real octa ( can use all cores in the same time ) and the driver is better triggering the right cores depending on the workload... Tegra4 is nothing also ( much lower design wins ) and it also have that fifth combined core which turns on to save power ( as the other four cores are power hungry A15 )...
Krait now running the mastered the design stage ( reducing leak, optimising the process ), that's why they're going higher with the clock while maintaining the target TDP... A15 is still far from being at this stage ( needs more time )...
so Krait is lower in performance than A15 not because A15 is only superior, but because it came earlier so the target performance + power is lower...
Samsung Exynos is nothing special, is just pure A15+A7 design based on big.LITTLE design... there's no customization, and when Samsung made the first SoC it's wasn't complete actually that's why the first SoC was a crap and the crappiest thing they do is that they used it in an actual flagship product ( S4 i9500 )... they was just rushing everything to say ( We have the first Octa core SoC and product )... and it wasn't octa at all !!
That Chinese newcomer MediaTek made the first real Octacore, yes it was based on A9, and older arch. but it was really Octa, real 8 cores running in the same time !! I know performance might not be that much but at least they're not lying and rushing they made it for cheap phones that's why it's not complicated and uses cheaper and older design ( ARM A9 )
Qualcomm is already working on 64bit SoC, but not Krait at all... it's a new arch but we just don't know when it will be ready, 2H14 or 2015... we just don't know... what we know that it's sure not in 1H14...
Posted by nodarsixar
Posted by XperiaCute
On 2013-11-11 11:36:32, Xajel wrote:
I didn't say that Q has anything, I said I didn't hear anything 64bit'sh for 1H14, and as you said, it's only a better yields of current products + newer & faster GPU... I know that... but what I said also that I know nothing of any 2H14 plans for Q... so maybe they have something for 2H14 or maybe nothing and we will have to wait till 2015 for anything 64bit...
I know that Qualcomm have their own design of ARM compatible architecture, as you said, based on ARMv7... it's just custom... deeper than what Apple is doing with their A6+A7 SoC... which are based on ARM9/ARM57 designs with some Apple modifications and customisations to increase the ARM9 performance ( as they didn't go to ARM15 )...
While Krait is a not as powerful as A15, it came much earlier than A15, the performance is not that much different between the two, Qualcomm get it in the right time as A15 designs took longer time to mature specially that pure A15 designs are power hungry that's why ARM went for the LITTLE.big idea which combines A15 + A7 cores and switch between them depending on the work load, Krait doesn't need such logic as it has superior power management and can handle different workload... Samsung went for LITTLE.big route but it failed in the first attempt ( that octa in S4 ) as it can't run all the cores in the same time ( so it's not a real octa ) and the driver is faulty to choose the cores depending on the workload, they have a lot of improvements with newer firmwares but still faulty... thats why they designed another SoC which is real octa ( can use all cores in the same time ) and the driver is better triggering the right cores depending on the workload... Tegra4 is nothing also ( much lower design wins ) and it also have that fifth combined core which turns on to save power ( as the other four cores are power hungry A15 )...
Krait now running the mastered the design stage ( reducing leak, optimising the process ), that's why they're going higher with the clock while maintaining the target TDP... A15 is still far from being at this stage ( needs more time )...
so Krait is lower in performance than A15 not because A15 is only superior, but because it came earlier so the target performance + power is lower...
Samsung Exynos is nothing special, is just pure A15+A7 design based on big.LITTLE design... there's no customization, and when Samsung made the first SoC it's wasn't complete actually that's why the first SoC was a crap and the crappiest thing they do is that they used it in an actual flagship product ( S4 i9500 )... they was just rushing everything to say ( We have the first Octa core SoC and product )... and it wasn't octa at all !!
That Chinese newcomer MediaTek made the first real Octacore, yes it was based on A9, and older arch. but it was really Octa, real 8 cores running in the same time !! I know performance might not be that much but at least they're not lying and rushing they made it for cheap phones that's why it's not complicated and uses cheaper and older design ( ARM A9 )
Qualcomm is already working on 64bit SoC, but not Krait at all... it's a new arch but we just don't know when it will be ready, 2H14 or 2015... we just don't know... what we know that it's sure not in 1H14...
>
Posted by karim128
Qualcomm designed their own chips based around the ARMv7 architecture. The Krait CPU from Q is based on an EARLY version of the A15 before it was finalized. It is a 28nm processor.
ARMv7 is an instruction set, not an architecture (huge difference, for instance AMD and Intel have the same instruction set but their architectures are completey different.) And Krait have been designed by Qualcomm around the same instruction set, and is completely unrelated from A15. At least you recognized that you made a mistake when you said that their node is several generation behind 28nm.
These companies license the architecture and design their own individual SoC AROUND their custom ARM CPUs.
Each company have the choice to either licence the architecture (like nVidia and Samsung who are using A15) or to licence only the instruction set and design their own, custom core compatible with ARM's own CPU out there. Qualcomm and Apple licenced the instruction set and designed their processor completely independantly from ARM.
Intel fabrication is at 14nm (2 fabrication nodes below the S800 @ 28nm, 20nm being the middle step between the two).
Intel haven't released yet any processor based on 14nm.
Your analogy between ATI and NVIDIA for graphics cards is inapplicable here for this discussion as its irrelevant to the points that were being made. false dichotomy.
Then you didn't get my point. You said Krait isn't even an A15, while Krait and A15 are completely unrelated architecture-wise and have been designed by two different companies. So that makes as much sense as saying a Radeon isn't EVEN a GeForce. We all know Radeon and GeForce are completely different, but saying a Radeon is not EVEN a GeForce, as if they were supposed to be, is wrong.
Power management is up to the individual firm, my analogy would be that not all chocolate ice cream tastes the same, they are all chocolate but the final product can vary from manufacturer.
Again, Krait and A15 are two different cores which only share the same instruction set, in other words, they can run the same programs but their architecture are completely different.
Your complaint about the market share is also down to numerous factors but mindshare is a hard thing to break. An example of mindshare would be 'Retina Display' which is not related to any technical metric, however its often associated with the minimum pixel density where the pixels can no longer be seen. People are stuck behind this artificial wall because of perception, it doesnt however make it the best display. Just the ones that people want because of mindshare. Likewise for SoCs... the S800 is in the Snapdragon family, and because they the 'Snapdragon' broke the GHz barrier for smartphones they continue to own mindshares, it isnt to say its a bad SoC its just an old design people dont seem to grasp this. There was a time not too long ago you could only find OMAP chips in smart devices, to the point where TI owned the market in a similar way, where are OMAP chips today?
My point exactly, you said Qualcomm have only mindshare and market share in it's favor. If that is what explains their succcess, then how come Tegra (which were the first dualcore, and then the first quadcore, present in the Surface and Nexus 7) have seen it's sales slow down this much? THey had the mind share and the market share but they aren't succesful.
Qualcomm was not the first to 28nm for the mobile market, thats just blatantly false. TI had OMAP at 28nm in 2010. Qualcomm had test chips out in mid 2011 I believe..
The only chip from TI that was supposed to be 28nm was the OMAP5, which was never produced. The latest OMAP is based on 40nm.
Intel is the first to 14nm, TSMC is at 20nm and may struggle to keep up, the reports say that there are some yield issues, which they will overcome. Samsung is rumored to have skipped the 20nm process in favor for the FinFet 14nm process.
All we have seen are roadmaps, we haven't seen a single, commercial product based on 14nm, only 22nm from Intel for now.
Going to another node, "is not an idea" im confused by your rebuttal.. its a billion dollar decision, and in order to succesfully produce tens of millions of cpus it takes a lot of brilliant people.. It is a competitive decision, but technology needs to move forward, i dont see a reason to oppose it.
What i meant is that it is too vague to be considered an idea. It's obvious going to smaller nodes is always better.
Chandrasekher has not resigned, unless my news is old, he was reassigned. Still reports to the same ppl.
I made mistake, I actually meant that he was reassigned. And that proves that everybody at Qualcomm disagrees with him about 64bits.
Like you said, the Samsung family of SoCs are on par with apple because they make them for apple. Your assumption about the whole Exynos 5 family is misplaced. the 5420 is a monstrous CPU that technically performance wise (it would burn you like the sun) is an order higher than the S800. Remember that the S800 Krait Cores are based pre-A15 architecture (ARM had not finalized the designing, Q pushed forward). The 5420 is four A15 and four A7's (updated version of the A8), because Samsungs manufacturing process matured over 2013 they corrected the issues from the 5410, and allowed for CCI/HMP. Simply put it sits atop the S800 but remains shackled and there are several limiting factors, namely the software and Samsungs unwillingness to release kernel information regarding the processor itself. Power management from Q however is second to none, that is ALL them too, as no one else in the industry has achieved the battery life or the charging speed of the S800.
Actually, there have been a misunderstanding. Only S800 is on par with Apple. Once again, Krait is not pre-A15. How can it be pre-A15 when it is as fast but more power efficient? In other words, how can a pre-A15 be better than a A15?
How come S800 have far, far more design wins than Tegra 4? Have you looked at benchmarks? Only the actively cooled Shield is competitive, but that is rellevant as you should compare it with actively cooled S800.
my point was Q has not released their plan yet
S800 updated with (among other things) Adreno 400 with DirectX 11 and H265 decode. But yeah it's a leak (although confirmed) and not announced.
The future is bright!
At least we agreed on something.
Posted by XperiaCute
@karim128
haha ( my ninja ) should delete his membership from Esato forums ..
>
[ This Message was edited by: XperiaCute on 2013-11-11 14:00 ]
Posted by Xajel
Lets see now and gather our knowledge and power to see next years SoC options for Sony
It's logical Sony will go for Qualcomm and MediaTek as Sony now uses both makers SoC for their phone but high-end devices and also most mid-range devices uses Qualcomm SoC only as MediaTek doesn't have high-end SoC and also Qualcomm SoC are mature enough for high-end devices...
So it's logically that Sony will go to Qualcomm for their next high-end... the leaked info suggest that we will have two options in 1H14 flagship (Z2) and 2H14 flagship (Z3) naming is just by me to simplify which phone we mean...
APQ8074
Quadcore Krait @2.3GHz
Dual Channel 800MHz LPDDR3
WiFi a/b/g/n/ac
USB 3.0
4K, 2K @30fps playback for H264 & VP8 codecs
1080p @120fps playback
1080p @60fps dual view ( 3D )
4K, 2K @30fps encoding in H264 & VP8 codecs
1080p @120fps encoding in H264, MP4 & VP8 codecs
Dual 1080p @60fps encoding ( 3D )
30MP single camera, 12MP stereo3D
Adreno 330 GPU : OpenGL ES 3.0, ES 2.0, ES 1.1, OpenCL 1.2e, DX 9.3… 3600 Mpx/s pixel fill rate
Adreno 330 should add 30% more performance compared to Adreno 320 found in current APQ8064 & MSM8960Pro
APQ8084
Same as APQ8074 but I'll summerize the changes
Dual Channel 800MHz LPDDR3 + Dual Channel 933MHz DDR3/3L
2x USB3.0 & 2x USB 2.0
H. 265 decoding ( playpack )
Adreno 420 GPU : Same as Adreno 330 but adds OpenCL 1.2 full profile, DX 11.1, DX 11.1 compute, 4000 Mpx/s pixel fill rate
Adreno 420 doesn't have any relative performance measurement yet in the leaks so we don't know...
Posted by karim128
APQ8074 is actually worse than what we have inside the Z1 today, it is just an MSM8074 without the modem, for tablets for example.
Posted by Gitaroo
There was a rumor about a Z Ultra size tablet from sony right, can happen. I would also like to see it first with the JDI 2560X1440 panels. I just hope they would get rid of the fancy touch screen tech and go with a standard panel and shrink the bezel a bit and with maybe something like s pen. If the price is right I would get it.
Posted by razec
I hope the Pen display tech on ZUltra will develop further and include pressure sensitivity as well
It's about time that Sony would make their Note 8/10.1 killer with that tech
Posted by my ninja
On 2013-11-11 11:36:32, Xajel wrote:
I completely agree with your post, i dont think i was disagreeing with you but Karim, so save for the last comment that mediatek was the first octa.. the 5420 is already on the market. Unless ive misunderstood their product.
On 2013-11-11 13:15:29, karim128 wrote:
Qualcomm designed their own chips based around the ARMv7 architecture. The Krait CPU from Q is based on an EARLY version of the A15 before it was finalized. It is a 28nm processor.
ARMv7 is an instruction set, not an architecture (huge difference, for instance AMD and Intel have the same instruction set but their architectures are completey different.) And Krait have been designed by Qualcomm around the same instruction set, and is completely unrelated from A15. At least you recognized that you made a mistake when you said that their node is several generation behind 28nm.
These companies license the architecture and design their own individual SoC AROUND their custom ARM CPUs.
Each company have the choice to either licence the architecture (like nVidia and Samsung who are using A15) or to licence only the instruction set and design their own, custom core compatible with ARM's own CPU out there. Qualcomm and Apple licenced the instruction set and designed their processor completely independantly from ARM.
Intel fabrication is at 14nm (2 fabrication nodes below the S800 @ 28nm, 20nm being the middle step between the two).
Intel haven't released yet any processor based on 14nm.
Your analogy between ATI and NVIDIA for graphics cards is inapplicable here for this discussion as its irrelevant to the points that were being made. false dichotomy.
Then you didn't get my point. You said Krait isn't even an A15, while Krait and A15 are completely unrelated architecture-wise and have been designed by two different companies. So that makes as much sense as saying a Radeon isn't EVEN a GeForce. We all know Radeon and GeForce are completely different, but saying a Radeon is not EVEN a GeForce, as if they were supposed to be, is wrong.
Power management is up to the individual firm, my analogy would be that not all chocolate ice cream tastes the same, they are all chocolate but the final product can vary from manufacturer.
Again, Krait and A15 are two different cores which only share the same instruction set, in other words, they can run the same programs but their architecture are completely different.
Your complaint about the market share is also down to numerous factors but mindshare is a hard thing to break. An example of mindshare would be 'Retina Display' which is not related to any technical metric, however its often associated with the minimum pixel density where the pixels can no longer be seen. People are stuck behind this artificial wall because of perception, it doesnt however make it the best display. Just the ones that people want because of mindshare. Likewise for SoCs... the S800 is in the Snapdragon family, and because they the 'Snapdragon' broke the GHz barrier for smartphones they continue to own mindshares, it isnt to say its a bad SoC its just an old design people dont seem to grasp this. There was a time not too long ago you could only find OMAP chips in smart devices, to the point where TI owned the market in a similar way, where are OMAP chips today?
My point exactly, you said Qualcomm have only mindshare and market share in it's favor. If that is what explains their succcess, then how come Tegra (which were the first dualcore, and then the first quadcore, present in the Surface and Nexus 7) have seen it's sales slow down this much? THey had the mind share and the market share but they aren't succesful.
Qualcomm was not the first to 28nm for the mobile market, thats just blatantly false. TI had OMAP at 28nm in 2010. Qualcomm had test chips out in mid 2011 I believe..
The only chip from TI that was supposed to be 28nm was the OMAP5, which was never produced. The latest OMAP is based on 40nm.
Intel is the first to 14nm, TSMC is at 20nm and may struggle to keep up, the reports say that there are some yield issues, which they will overcome. Samsung is rumored to have skipped the 20nm process in favor for the FinFet 14nm process.
All we have seen are roadmaps, we haven't seen a single, commercial product based on 14nm, only 22nm from Intel for now.
Going to another node, "is not an idea" im confused by your rebuttal.. its a billion dollar decision, and in order to succesfully produce tens of millions of cpus it takes a lot of brilliant people.. It is a competitive decision, but technology needs to move forward, i dont see a reason to oppose it.
What i meant is that it is too vague to be considered an idea. It's obvious going to smaller nodes is always better.
Chandrasekher has not resigned, unless my news is old, he was reassigned. Still reports to the same ppl.
I made mistake, I actually meant that he was reassigned. And that proves that everybody at Qualcomm disagrees with him about 64bits.
Like you said, the Samsung family of SoCs are on par with apple because they make them for apple. Your assumption about the whole Exynos 5 family is misplaced. the 5420 is a monstrous CPU that technically performance wise (it would burn you like the sun) is an order higher than the S800. Remember that the S800 Krait Cores are based pre-A15 architecture (ARM had not finalized the designing, Q pushed forward). The 5420 is four A15 and four A7's (updated version of the A8), because Samsungs manufacturing process matured over 2013 they corrected the issues from the 5410, and allowed for CCI/HMP. Simply put it sits atop the S800 but remains shackled and there are several limiting factors, namely the software and Samsungs unwillingness to release kernel information regarding the processor itself. Power management from Q however is second to none, that is ALL them too, as no one else in the industry has achieved the battery life or the charging speed of the S800.
Actually, there have been a misunderstanding. Only S800 is on par with Apple. Once again, Krait is not pre-A15. How can it be pre-A15 when it is as fast but more power efficient? In other words, how can a pre-A15 be better than a A15?
How come S800 have far, far more design wins than Tegra 4? Have you looked at benchmarks? Only the actively cooled Shield is competitive, but that is rellevant as you should compare it with actively cooled S800.
my point was Q has not released their plan yet
S800 updated with (among other things) Adreno 400 with DirectX 11 and H265 decode. But yeah it's a leak (although confirmed) and not announced.
The future is bright!
At least we agreed on something.
Thank you again for your response.
My apologies on the ARMv7 in-congruence, like i said i dont take any time to edit this post.. but its clear you understand.
ARM is a holding company, and yes other firms are allowed to use their designs or instruction set with their own proprietary design.
I am fairly certain that Intel will be releasing 14nm next year.. The foundries necessary have already switched over to this node. So yes there are no products yet but we should see them shortly, and we dont know of any other firm that is there yet (we have conjecture about Samsung which i touched on.. but nothing definitive). That is still 2 nodes ahead of Q S800, remember Q hasnt shown anything so we are in the dark from this perspective on how far along they are with a new process.
The ARM reference is the A15, Krait falls below this reference point because of what reason? they designed their own chip, based on what ARM had at the time, their goal was to get a family of SoCs to market ASAP for mind.market share, this 'rush' paid off as they are assumed to be the only/best player for mobile SoCs. Again your comparison i dont think particularly suits this discussion.. could just be me however.
You keep trying to say that NVIDIA had market share, I think they were in one relevant device in the past 3 years... that is not a good example. I tried to share one with OMAP (the SoC family in general) because they had favorable mind.market share NVIDIA was never comparable to that.. they are for all intents irrelevant. TI lost out due to a SoC that would be ripped apart today wrt the original SD 1GHz SoC.. (much how the maligned 5410 was lamented for not being a homogenous 8 core cpu) I will have to re-read but i believe that there was some 'funny business' with how the SoC used its '1GHz' again its been about 5/6 years so Ill have to research that for you.. (this may be dubious, but its sticking in my mind right now for some reason) I could just be thinking that the OMAP at the time was a better SoC..
I think that TI ran into some issues with the OMAP5 design/production, they announced that it would be their last but i thought it made it into some products, if what you say is true, i guess they didnt. so i think they chose to refocus elsewhere.
Broadwell is a commercial product.. its 14nm itll be here in a few months. Yes not _NOW_ but thats a little nitpicky.. we are discussing minutia though so i understand your sentiment.
Chandrasekher is an idiot, we all agree. He is a marketer, he would be the last to know anything testified to the fact that he should not have spoken out of turn..
Better is subjective.. Its (S800) an earlier design based around reference data from ARM. Defining it by saying its better than a younger product is difficult for me to agree with because our reference is based around archaic software restrictions. (K3.4 vs anything that can fully support HMP through bigLITTLE, and 64bit instruction which would be K3.10) all things being equal, running 3.10 i doubt that the S800 would be able to keep up.. it may last longer in the day (also extremely relevant in the mobile space, but may not necessarily be the primary focus of this discussion, unless im reading your sentiment incorrectly)
Benchmarks.. in this space of mobile SoCs, has a massive ball and chain around the HW and Snapdragon has maximized performance under this 'artificial' handicap. Google here needs to get in gear here i blame them..
I could be wrong, but it is my understanding that the new S800 is still v7.. take that as you will.
@XperiaCute, thank you for the suggestion.. but ive been here for nearly 10 years. friendly discussions without bashing and name calling is one of the reasons that i like this board over others.. proper discourse without it devolving..
Posted by badassmam
So that metal frame looks like its for a normal sized Z1 and not anything smaller, can anyone do the maths please? The stuff that is being announced tomorrow, will it be available straight away or later? My friends say that the Z1F is better than the Z1 because of the screen being smaller thus improving performance and battery life. I'm really looking forward to a powerhouse at this size and have my fingers crossed for better camera optimisation.
Posted by sami92a
Oh the forum is invaded by geeky SOC talk
Posted by karim128
I am fairly certain that Intel will be releasing 14nm next year.. The foundries necessary have already switched over to this node. So yes there are no products yet but we should see them shortly, and we dont know of any other firm that is there yet (we have conjecture about Samsung which i touched on.. but nothing definitive). That is still 2 nodes ahead of Q S800, remember Q hasnt shown anything so we are in the dark from this perspective on how far along they are with a new process.
Do not compare desktop with mobile. New process nodes are first optimized for performance and then for power efficiency so the low-power versions always comes after the desktop
The ARM reference is the A15, Krait falls below this reference point because of what reason? they designed their own chip, based on what ARM had at the time, their goal was to get a family of SoCs to market ASAP for mind.market share, this 'rush' paid off as they are assumed to be the only/best player for mobile SoCs. Again your comparison i dont think particularly suits this discussion.. could just be me however.
Gosh, please don't repeat the same arguments when i've already said they were wrong. There is no reference, everybody is free to either use A15 or desing their own core, and Krait is not based on an early A15, it is a pure Qualcomm design, from scratch, the only thing it shares with A15 is the instruction set, in other words they can execute the same programs. And Krait didn't fall behind, just look at the benchmarks! The octa based S4 is only on par with the S600 based S4 and way behind the S800 based Note 3 (Samsung may cheat, but comparing Samsung's product between them is still a fair comparaison). Whereas, in terms of battery life, Snapdragon is much better ! Just google "Anandtech s800", " It seems like with Snapdragon 800 we may be ushering in a new generation of battery performance, despite the lack of a traditional process node shrink" , "On the CPU performance front, Snapdragon 800's 2.3GHz Krait 400 cores do appear to hold their own quite well against ARM's Cortex A15. In some cases ARM holds the advantage, while in others the higher clocked Krait 400 takes the lead." And that is coming from Anand, one of the first to expose the whole cheating things:
You keep trying to say that NVIDIA had market share, I think they were in one relevant device in the past 3 years... that is not a good example. I tried to share one with OMAP (the SoC family in general) because they had favorable mind.market share NVIDIA was never comparable to that.. they are for all intents irrelevant. TI lost out due to a SoC that would be ripped apart today wrt the original SD 1GHz SoC.. (much how the maligned 5410 was lamented for not being a homogenous 8 core cpu) I will have to re-read but i believe that there was some 'funny business' with how the SoC used its '1GHz' again its been about 5/6 years so Ill have to research that for you.. (this may be dubious, but its sticking in my mind right now for some reason) I could just be thinking that the OMAP at the time was a better SoC..
They were in Surface and Nexus 7. But it's not just about nVidia, even TI had the marketshare and mind-share, now they quit the mobile space, my point is : if Qualcomm is successful today, it's simply because they have the superior products. Marketshare doesn't last if you don't stay competitive.
I think that TI ran into some issues with the OMAP5 design/production, they announced that it would be their last but i thought it made it into some products, if what you say is true, i guess they didnt. so i think they chose to refocus elsewhere.
OMAP5 didn't make it.
Broadwell is a commercial product.. its 14nm itll be here in a few months. Yes not _NOW_ but thats a little nitpicky.. we are discussing minutia though so i understand your sentiment.
Don't compare smartphones with Desktop.
Better is subjective.. Its (S800) an earlier design based around reference data from ARM. Defining it by saying its better than a younger product is difficult for me to agree with because our reference is based around archaic software restrictions. (K3.4 vs anything that can fully support HMP through bigLITTLE, and 64bit instruction which would be K3.10) all things being equal, running 3.10 i doubt that the S800 would be able to keep up.. it may last longer in the day (also extremely relevant in the mobile space, but may not necessarily be the primary focus of this discussion, unless im reading your sentiment incorrectly
My point is, both are equally fast, but Snapdragon is signifcantly more power efficient. Maybe next implementations of big little will be better, but not today, and the kernel will change nothing. However, in theory, they are the way to go in the future, but not in their current implementation, because concept and practice are two different things.
I could be wrong, but it is my understanding that the new S800 is still v7.. take that as you will.
It is v7 ! But it is not A15-based ! It is completely different from A15!
Posted by MusaD.Dragon
Anybody interested much that the Z1f was spotted on Sony's website ? Lmao
Posted by sami92a
On 2013-11-11 16:59:22, MusaD.Dragon wrote:
Anybody interested much that the Z1f was spotted on Sony's website ? Lmao
doesn´t seem like it
Posted by MusaD.Dragon
Hahah ikr
Posted by goldenface
I thought it said Z1s.
Posted by HxH
Please stop your ranting comment the differences of core design, Karim is right.
Only Q and Apple now does the core customization without relying on ARM reference.
Samsung vow to do so for their next chipset (it was report roughly same time as Exynos 64 bit).
Exynos 5420 is still not true octa-core (it was report earlier month ago software can't change such a faulty hardware design, the problems are heat and power can't be optimization for mobile).
MediaTek first and true octa is MT6592 which based on all Cortex A7 architecture.
................
Moto G will be the next catcher when it arrive
it equipped with Q's effort (MSM8226) to compete in MediaTek's space
It's Quad-Cortex A7 under brand of Snapdragon 400 / Snapdragon S4
[ This Message was edited by: HxH on 2013-11-11 17:19 ]
Posted by sami92a
On 2013-11-11 18:07:39, goldenface wrote:
I thought it said Z1s.
Z1s is Z1F, btw does anyone know wich time the event in china is?
Posted by my ninja
On 2013-11-11 16:51:16, karim128 wrote:
I am fairly certain that Intel will be releasing 14nm next year.. The foundries necessary have already switched over to this node. So yes there are no products yet but we should see them shortly, and we dont know of any other firm that is there yet (we have conjecture about Samsung which i touched on.. but nothing definitive). That is still 2 nodes ahead of Q S800, remember Q hasnt shown anything so we are in the dark from this perspective on how far along they are with a new process.
Do not compare desktop with mobile. New process nodes are first optimized for performance and then for power efficiency so the low-power versions always comes after the desktop
The ARM reference is the A15, Krait falls below this reference point because of what reason? they designed their own chip, based on what ARM had at the time, their goal was to get a family of SoCs to market ASAP for mind.market share, this 'rush' paid off as they are assumed to be the only/best player for mobile SoCs. Again your comparison i dont think particularly suits this discussion.. could just be me however.
Gosh, please don't repeat the same arguments when i've already said they were wrong. There is no reference, everybody is free to either use A15 or desing their own core, and Krait is not based on an early A15, it is a pure Qualcomm design, from scratch, the only thing it shares with A15 is the instruction set, in other words they can execute the same programs. And Krait didn't fall behind, just look at the benchmarks! The octa based S4 is only on par with the S600 based S4 and way behind the S800 based Note 3 (Samsung may cheat, but comparing Samsung's product between them is still a fair comparaison). Whereas, in terms of battery life, Snapdragon is much better ! Just google "Anandtech s800", " It seems like with Snapdragon 800 we may be ushering in a new generation of battery performance, despite the lack of a traditional process node shrink" , "On the CPU performance front, Snapdragon 800's 2.3GHz Krait 400 cores do appear to hold their own quite well against ARM's Cortex A15. In some cases ARM holds the advantage, while in others the higher clocked Krait 400 takes the lead." And that is coming from Anand, one of the first to expose the whole cheating things:
You keep trying to say that NVIDIA had market share, I think they were in one relevant device in the past 3 years... that is not a good example. I tried to share one with OMAP (the SoC family in general) because they had favorable mind.market share NVIDIA was never comparable to that.. they are for all intents irrelevant. TI lost out due to a SoC that would be ripped apart today wrt the original SD 1GHz SoC.. (much how the maligned 5410 was lamented for not being a homogenous 8 core cpu) I will have to re-read but i believe that there was some 'funny business' with how the SoC used its '1GHz' again its been about 5/6 years so Ill have to research that for you.. (this may be dubious, but its sticking in my mind right now for some reason) I could just be thinking that the OMAP at the time was a better SoC..
They were in Surface and Nexus 7. But it's not just about nVidia, even TI had the marketshare and mind-share, now they quit the mobile space, my point is : if Qualcomm is successful today, it's simply because they have the superior products. Marketshare doesn't last if you don't stay competitive.
I think that TI ran into some issues with the OMAP5 design/production, they announced that it would be their last but i thought it made it into some products, if what you say is true, i guess they didnt. so i think they chose to refocus elsewhere.
OMAP5 didn't make it.
Broadwell is a commercial product.. its 14nm itll be here in a few months. Yes not _NOW_ but thats a little nitpicky.. we are discussing minutia though so i understand your sentiment.
Don't compare smartphones with Desktop.
Better is subjective.. Its (S800) an earlier design based around reference data from ARM. Defining it by saying its better than a younger product is difficult for me to agree with because our reference is based around archaic software restrictions. (K3.4 vs anything that can fully support HMP through bigLITTLE, and 64bit instruction which would be K3.10) all things being equal, running 3.10 i doubt that the S800 would be able to keep up.. it may last longer in the day (also extremely relevant in the mobile space, but may not necessarily be the primary focus of this discussion, unless im reading your sentiment incorrectly
My point is, both are equally fast, but Snapdragon is signifcantly more power efficient. Maybe next implementations of big little will be better, but not today, and the kernel will change nothing. However, in theory, they are the way to go in the future, but not in their current implementation, because concept and practice are two different things.
I could be wrong, but it is my understanding that the new S800 is still v7.. take that as you will.
It is v7 ! But it is not A15-based ! It is completely different from A15!
Thanks, i fear we are going in circles now.. also those of you who dont want to read it feel free to skip past our posts.. no one is being held captive..
you made a statement about 14nm not being in the market i was only providing you a counterpoint. yes desktop is different.. for now but why do you think intel is driving down so far so fast? its at a certain time for them, that they want to hit that inflection point where theres no longer a delineation between the two kinds of processors.. much in the same way that ARM wants the A57/53 in servers..
Honestly!?, By default, the A15 is the reference.. it is THE reference from ARM, this much should be indisputable. A company will license chip designs/instruction sets and ARM can even go so far as to provide the 'blueprint' where companies like Q/Apple will go on their merry way adding whatever they deem necessary for their product. Fairly certain Apple is the farthest away from 'home' so to speak, the Krait cores are still in the family, based on early A15 designs, this is what has been, no matter how much you may want to disagree the Krait's pedigree is directly linked to ARMs A15. It is why they are similar in design philosophy (S800/A15) Again the power of the CPU is locked to the platform it is on. I think this is where we disagree about power. I can look at the benchmarks but if i know where the limitations are, things are not equal. one SoC is being handcuffed by the OS the tests are being performed on. The power optimizations from the octa is a null argument because it is merely hacking lower power cores to compensate it is not as good of a solution as Q, i think we all agree. however the software is not up to par with the HW yet (well it is technically, but google is dragging their knuckles on this one). so if we took the SoCs standalone outside of android the story is vastly different.. if we used a proper build of linux on protoboards from Q and Samsung S800 v 5420 the differences would be greater than your implication. now, am i changing the goalposts.. a bit i suppose, however the implication is that SoCs are similarly powerful is what i take issue with because they arent, and i am failing to illustrate that, and must concede that in this context (how it relates to future devices) they are. but not because the HW is the same, or their potential is the same they have a common delimiter.
Success is a funny thing.. as there are a lot of factors for SoCs. Q has a lot more going for their HW than many other vendors due to their overall integration from other markets that they are also in. the radio integration, the power management not necessarily just the processing performance of the SoC, which we should point to as another part of their success, a wholistic approach to the industry needs.. other vendors do not seem to be able to meet//exceed in a meaningful way. So yes, its not JUST mindshare ill concede that point..
I will compare smartphones with desktops.. that is where this is all heading.. there will be a time, shortly i hope that your portable will have replaced the box on the floor.. whoever does it seamlessly (ie, just walk up to your desk with your mouse/keyboard/monitor and its just on connected to your portable with little/no user interaction with a full blown OS to utilize) first will usher in another 2007 shift... just waiting for people to realize that this is where its headed is difficult. watches are not the future..
The kernel would change a lot, as 3.4 is vastly different than 3.10.. i cant see how this isnt relevant to the SoCs being discussed.
My point that the new S800 being v7 is that the instruction set is v7. v8 will be out in phones early next year.. meaning theres no significant update to the architecture, i think you read into that one a bit more than necessary. i am keenly aware of the mistake i typed last night no need to continue banging that drum.
edit: ARMv8 is already out.. the Apple A7 is using ARMv8-A
@HxH
No. the 5420 has CCI (hardware cache coherency) and HMP, and is fully capable of using all 8 cores (4xA15/4xA7) simultaneously. the 5410 cannot and does not have the HW to do so..
this is _ALL_ really to say that google needs to update android properly, and unshackle hw vendors.. it is my opinion that the 'potential' of these SoCs are not equal, on MANY different fronts. And "power" means different things to different people.
[ This Message was edited by: my ninja on 2013-11-11 18:42 ]
Posted by XperiaJunkie
According to PocketLint.com Sony have already confirmed the international version of the Z1f will be called the Z1s and they also say it os heading to UK and US shores but there is no confirmation on release date or price.
Posted by evilhomura89
On 2013-11-08 18:52:58, Gitaroo wrote:
I dont know a lot about camera but I read it on XDA that OIS isnt magic, the OIS in N5 doesn't compare to the digital stabilizing in the Z1 at all. I'll see if I can find the post again.
hi, you managed to find that post?
Posted by milukugiuniu
Sony Expo 2013 will be held this evening in Shanghai. I'll be in there and share the information with you later.
AFAIK, there will not be any undisclosed devices showing up. Most likely, Z1 mini can be seen.
Posted by DrKnute
Thanks Milu!! I'm waiting for the US Z1s. Hopefully it gets released on the SONY site soon!!
Posted by Gitaroo
On 2013-11-12 03:32:51, evilhomura89 wrote:
On 2013-11-08 18:52:58, Gitaroo wrote:
I dont know a lot about camera but I read it on XDA that OIS isnt magic, the OIS in N5 doesn't compare to the digital stabilizing in the Z1 at all. I'll see if I can find the post again.
hi, you managed to find that post?
http://forum.xda-developers.c[....]st.php?p=47139844&postcount=19
"N5 only has a 2 axis OIS which isn't all that great. Digital stabilisation can beat a 2 axis OIS."
Think I might have remember won't
he didnt really say Z1 is way better. As I said I don't understand a whole lot about camera, just something I picked up when I was scanning through posts on XDA.
Posted by HxH
find the fact before keep ranting on, it's kinda meaningless argument
Samsung Galaxy S4 and Note 3 won't get true octa-core update
http://www.gsmarena.com/samsu[....]_octacore_update-news-6908.php
although it has CCI fixed but unable to manage power and heat optimization
then what the point of true octa-core, for now it WILL NOT work like theory.
but we WILL SEE if this December bring miracle in to save your day?
*******
On 2013-11-12 04:42:04, Gitaroo wrote:
http://forum.xda-developers.c[....]hp?p=47139844&postcount=19
"N5 only has a 2 axis OIS which isn't all that great. Digital stabilisation can beat a 2 axis OIS."
Think I might have remember won't
he didnt really say Z1 is way better. As I said I don't understand a whole lot about camera, just something I picked up when I was scanning through posts on XDA.
mass consumer won't care how many axis it is, they only care if have or have not.
and the device that haven't declare OIS status if often less considering option.
[ This Message was edited by: HxH on 2013-11-12 07:17 ]
Posted by Xajel
My personal opinion is that if Sony want to be special and unique...
They must work on increasing the unit sales for their high-end phones, after that they can go to the next step...
Custom designed SoC, I'm not talking Sony building their own SoC no... but rather asking another company like Qualcomm or MediaTek ( I prefer Qualcomm ) to have custom built SoC... nothing from ground but more like Sony adding more custom functionality to the SoC so they can have unique features...
Like What ?
They can ask Qualcomm to build a special version of APQ8084 for example but without any unneeded silicon, there's no mobile phone maker that utilise all the features of the SoC they use in their mobile phone as the SoC is built to have different uses and configurations.. maybe only Apple do this...
So removing all the non-used logics and add custom hardware silicons to provide additional features... see for example Google did that with the Moto X, they added custom logics to the SoC for the always running Voice command for example
Sony can add Camera processor, Audio processor, Bravia engine all in hardware rather than software, now it's not possible to do this because it will require another chip in the phone for each one, increasing power and space used by the phone... but adding a mobile optimised logic for this will be unique... Qualcomm already have a custom programmable cores in their SoC which might be useful for this and I don't know if Sony is already using these or not ( they might for Bravia for example ) but having a more targeted and designed cores just for these will give better performance for lower power usage... and might allow Sony to add more features...
The problem with this concept is initial cost and time as it will require to custom design the special cores and software to fully optimise these features... but later Sony might have it very easy as they can just copy the same logic to any newer SoC that Qualcomm is made... and might be also do some more optimising and adding more features...
The rest of the SoC will be exactly the same as any other Qualcomm SoC, so from a developer perspective nothing is changed, Qualcomm will not need another specially developed drivers/API only for Sony...
But in the first place they have to make sure that their investment and work in these custom things can be justified by the sales and number of units sold... it's not logical to build a custom SoC like this for only few millions units... but if the logic is already there then it's possible ( like what Google did with Moto X, the logic is there so they licensed it and asked Qualcomm to have it in a custom SoC )
Posted by sami92a
On 2013-11-12 03:47:17, milukugiuniu wrote:
Sony Expo 2013 will be held this evening in Shanghai. I'll be in there and share the information with you later.
AFAIK, there will not be any undisclosed devices showing up. Most likely, Z1 mini can be seen.
in how many hours from now?
Posted by Ricky D
Considering it's 6pm here in China I'd say anytime in the next couple hours at the latest.
Posted by sami92a
On 2013-11-12 11:00:56, Ricky D wrote:
Considering it's 6pm here in China I'd say anytime in the next couple hours at the latest.
so between 1-3 hours?
Posted by XperiaJunkie
I take it there is no live stream for the event.
Posted by HxH
Instead of ask chipset maker to develop a unique one, which would cost truck load of money that mobile division don't have right now. If possible I would love to see them to invest in Ericsson LTE modem tech and patent in order use to develop their own custom chip with LTE connectivity.
I guess, Sony would stick with Q for next year and maybe two before considering better options as I my idea above, they don't want to risk and learn to optimization another new chipset. About MediaTek I read that quoted it as outsource development, ODM device with Sony's skin UI.
As for matter of now, Q is good for today device. 64 bit chipset is something to watch out but not game changer until Android and Google fledged it fully supported in latter half of 2014. (it will pointless to push technology ahead of it time remember Android 2.3 and dual-core?) Q still have plenty of time to play around. 1H14 Q has slightly higher clock chipset MSM8974AB, I think Sony would skip it again (same as SD600 situation) and stick to a lower-bin MSM8974 (2.16GHz) with their hardware optimization know-how.
Fabrication process is far more concern threat this year, as Samsung vow to jump to 14nm in 2014 but TSMC still no any responses to counter that but we all know Korean often bluffing, I don't know if they would rush technology out of the gate again as it happen when they rush Exynos 5410 this year, which not fully working as they claim.
I still remember that day of very first Snapdragon S4's shortage, I think that Q and TSMC wouldn't risk it again.
********
three devices this evening, anyone would confirm this?
Posted by smclion102
Instead of wasting money on useless custom Soc or buying some HW company, Sony should spend cash on Software.Nobody cares for custom only soc 2% of the crowd knows what Soc. is inside. Sony should build new unique software's Obviously Sony is giving us the latest Soc so all I care is perfect and useful software not like gimmick software features from Samsung.
SOFTWARE SOFTWARE SOFTWARE SOFTWARE SOFTWARE SOFTWARE IS WHAT WE NEED
Posted by Ricky D
Looks from Sony China's weibo that the event has already started, not sure when it finishes.
Posted by HxH
This is few sample of application / software publisher under brand of Sony
https://play.google.com/store[....]tal+Network+Applications,+Inc.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/developer?id=Sony+Corporation
https://play.google.com/store[....]?id=Sony+Mobile+Communications
https://play.google.com/store[....]ails?id=com.sony.snei.mu.phone
Sony didn't take advantage from it resourcefulness and use it wisely for their Xperia smartphone.
********
Unfortunately, still no update on Engadget China
[ This Message was edited by: HxH on 2013-11-12 11:58 ]
Posted by sami92a
On 2013-11-12 12:46:09, Ricky D wrote:
Looks from Sony China's weibo that the event has already started, not sure when it finishes.
nice nice! keep us posted
i can´t wait to see whats coming
Posted by XperiaJunkie
fingers crossed its all good news from Kaz not long now anyway.
Posted by sami92a
http://www.xperiablog.net/201[....]5503-first-sample-image-leaks/
Posted by XperiaJunkie
^ just read that before they are stating it wont be released before the new year which is a shame as I am looking at one for a Christmas present for my girlfriend she keeps using my Z1 reading e-books in the bath so it will be ideal for her.
Posted by reeflotz
On 2013-11-12 11:49:38, smclion102 wrote:
SOFTWARE SOFTWARE SOFTWARE SOFTWARE SOFTWARE SOFTWARE IS WHAT WE NEED
+1
Software has always been Sony's weakness, hinders the true potential of their hardware, right now Sony software is only just about right/decent, needs more tweaking and a little bit more features to become excellent.
I'm hoping Z1s will already have the rumored major camera software update out of the box so that it can leave a good impression once reviewers get their hands on it.
Posted by XperiaJunkie
anybody else constantly refreshing there browser like me to see if there is any more news.