Posted by supercoolman
this is a thread on rumours. not only for the mobile phones, but lso the tech on the mobile phone. next thing we need are the pcb design, layout and schematics
Posted by pattiobear
Yeah, but the text input just seems so tedious.
Posted by Wintermute
On 2014-02-27 23:30:32, Smaug wrote:
@Wintermute
Thanks for the informative post. There are a couple of questions remaining though.
Triluminos in BRAVIA splits the blue LED light and re-emits at red or green wavelengths using QD Vision's tech. Where things get murky is the Tablet Z2's Live Colour LEDs do not emit blue. Due to the double phosphor coating, the LED emittance is blue, red and green. This light then passes through the nanocrystal layer in order to energise the QDs into specific wavelengths.
Perhaps I am missing something in the process, but conventional Triluminos would not work under this method. You would need to modify the QD layer to absorb different wavelengths representing RGB, which would then... re-emit RGB again? If we use your bell curve analogy, sure you can get very narrow wavelengths (so very specific colours) but the phosphor tech is meant to incorporate this anyway. It is the missing piece of this display puzzle.
Note not being able to turn off the feature does not necessarily confirm it is not software based. You cannot turn off the BIONZ image processor, for example.
That's why I am perplexed as to why Sony would incorporate both hardware Triluminos and Live Colour LEDs. They do the same job but add development, manufacturing and licence costs and complexity. Admittedly, Sony haven't stated whether they licence the phosphor tech from a third party, but there are a few out there that specialise in it as this isn't new. Sony just claim they're the first to apply it in a tablet. In their promotions, Sony also distinguishes between Live Colour and Triluminos so they must be separate processes.
I read a research paper (thrilling, I tell you) discussing phosphor LEDs. In short, they produce a wide CRI value but at a cost: lower power efficiency due to the Stokes shift. By combining multiple phosphors, the luminous emittance can appear "brighter" due to the human eye's varying sensitivity to different wavelengths. In short, Sony's new displays should appear brighter, more vivid and with a broad colour gamut, but will drain more power and the screen will be hot.
Perhaps the Tablet Z2 and XZ2's displays are more advanced than we think. If Sony modified the Triluminos QD layer to absorb and re-emit the RGB from the coated LEDs, you'd get highly accurate colour rendering, 100% of NTSC gamut and bright screen. If they solved the power trade-off (note bigger battery in XZ2), even better.
Apologies for those that feel we've highjacked the Rumours thread. However, this has strong implications for future Xperia models. If true, combined with IPS panels and Sony may have unquestionably the best displays on the market. Resources could then be diverted towards improving camera software or speakers etc.
Hmm...well, I'll see if I can do some digging and come up with something about the new displays, but I have no doubt that the previous generation of Triluminos used quantum dots and that Triluminos is thus a hardware feature. I read everything I could get my hands on about Triluminos for mobile when the Z Ultra came out, and everything confirmed they are using QD Vision's technique involving quantum dots.
Like I said, I'm going to look for information on Live Colour, but I'm confident in saying that if they're using phosphor, they're not using quantum dots. Which is not to say they didn't use it before, but like you said, it wouldn't make sense. The whole appeal behind quantum dots is that they absorb light and re-emit it at a precise wavelength. It doesn't matter what color the light it absorbs is, though, so you'd get no benefit from, for instance, shining red light on a red quantum dot compared to shining blue or white light on it. The light it emits will be the same color.
Posted by itsjustJOH
^What I'll be sure right now is that they won't use two hardware implementations that does the same thing. But I really doubt Triluminos is hardware, with only a bit wider gamut than standard white backlight and the fact that Live Colour was explained as a hardware and no direct explanation of any hardware implementation for Triluminos mobile.
Can anyone on neogaf ask zomg about this? I'm pretty sure he would know, or at least his sources.
Posted by DexterMoser
On 2014-02-28 01:51:46, ardian wrote:
On 2014-02-27 19:37:36, DexterMoser wrote:
On 2014-02-26 16:48:39, ardian wrote:
On 2014-02-26 13:19:20, DexterMoser wrote:
@Ardian:
Wasn't there something exceptional about the Z2 that you couldn't tell us before the announcement?
I'm just curious, what was it?
for that you have to have more time mate
... new flagship
I want it now, damn!
hahaha you cant have it now
.. Lebron waited like 8 years to get his first ring you need to wait only 6 months
Ok, Z2 has to fulfill my needs until then
Posted by itsjustJOH
On 2014-02-28 11:27:45, DexterMoser wrote:
Ok, Z2 has to fulfill my needs until then
Go for a 6-month contract because the next flagship will come out after 6 months and you will feel cheated by Sony and your phone will no longer become a priority.
Posted by CrownedAkuma
On 2014-02-28 11:39:44, itsjustJOH wrote:
On 2014-02-28 11:27:45, DexterMoser wrote:
Ok, Z2 has to fulfill my needs until then
Go for a 6-month contract because the next flagship will come out after 6 months and you will feel cheated by Sony and your phone will no longer become a priority.
Posted by Tizzo
New "Smart LifeLog Camera Concept"
Source: http://sonyviet.vn/2014/02/sm[....]h-dien-ban-thu-lifelog-camera/
Posted by itsjustJOH
Erica made an initial gamut test for the Z2.
I'm impressed by the capabilities of this device so far.
Gamut is large, comparable to Super AMOLED displays.
On the Z2 devices demonstrated in Barcelona, there's no chroma saturation boost added. If color seem plenty intense they don't look too over-saturated like we've seen often on Samsung wide gamut panels.
Gamut is large, comparable to Super AMOLED displays.
On the Z2 devices demonstrated in Barcelona, there's no chroma saturation boost added. If color seem plenty intense they don't look too over-saturated like we've seen often on Samsung wide gamut panels.
Erica Griffin's G+ Page
[ This Message was edited by: itsjustJOH on 2014-02-28 11:54 ]
Posted by Smaug
@Wintermute
If you find anything interesting, let us know. Sony aren't exactly forthcoming with info on the XZ2 and Tablet Z2's new Live Colour tech; perhaps due to licencing conditions. I've made logical deductions after piecing together info from a variety of sources, but I may be misinformed.
Live Colour on BRAVIA is definitely a software solution run by a dedicated chip; Sony stated as much. Conversely, Triluminos on BRAVIA is a hardware solution. Xperia may be a different story. We're also yet to see whether this remains exclusive to flagship models or whether it will be rolled out across the range. The cheaper Xperia M2 does not incorporate BIONZ or Triluminos so clearly there is a cost involved in implemention, regardless of software/hardware.
QD tech is relatively new; phosphors are not. Plasma TVs use electrically charged gas to emit photons that interact with a phosphor-coated cell plate. It's partially why (among other reasons) plasmas tend to run hot and use more power. If Sony's engineers have solved the tradeoffs associated with phosphor tech, rivals would be scrambling to catch up.
@spw
Yes, I'm aware of the figures in the article, having used it several times myself. However, numbers can be misleading. Just because sensors are a "$3 billion business" does not mean it is a cash cow for Sony. Allow me to elaborate:
Sony sensors sells for an average $7.30. However, if they cost (say) $7.50 to manufacture, Sony would lose money. By increasing production capacity, you can achieve better economies of scale and lower your per-unit costs. The real question is a matter of profit margins. Sony's financial reporting lumps together units, so extrapolating what the margins are for sensors is unclear. For example Samsung, the world's largest supplier of TVs, makes just 3% margin. LG makes virtually 0%. Every BRAVIA TV sells for a loss. VAIO too, in an industry estimated to be worth over $200 billion.
The definition of a cash cow (the term I used) differs, but generally it implies a product line or business unit that generates above-average returns on investment at a stable rate. Popularised by the BGC matrix, it can also be tied to the mature phase of the product development lifecycle. Since sensors must continually evolve and we have little idea of margins, Sony's sensor division cannot be correctly classified as a cash cow. It may be (marginally) profitable, but not a raft to keep Sony afloat.
What we can agree on is that Sony is investing heavily in their sensor (and camera) division. This forms 1 of 3 priority areas Kaz outlined, implying Sony intends to make imaging a core competency. It is also a missed opportunity for a company that has high brand value. The vast majority of people buying iPhones do not realise it contains a Sony sensor. They think it is Apple tech. Sony could focus more on branding their B2B components, just like Intel did with the highly successful "Intel Inside" campaign.
Posted by Smaug
On 2014-02-28 12:52:49, itsjustJOH wrote:
Erica made an initial gamut test for the Z2.
Nice catch! And a very positive first-pass analysis. The Z2 (and presumably Tablet Z2) is shaping up to be a solid improvement over predecessors. Notice her comment about "new Sony backlight tech". Since Triluminos isn't new, perhaps this is a reference to the Live Colour LEDs.
I've never understood the infatuation with over-saturated displays, such as those witnessed on AMOLED. I can turn up the display on my own VAIO Pro using the inbuilt software to show "vivid" colours, but accuracy is more preferable. If Sony can demonstrate colour accuracy, vividness and a wide gamut (along with bright display), we have a clear winner.
Will reviewers buy it? Or will they jump straight into the viewing angle debate and ignore the more subtle aspects of a quality display? In the end, every person is entitled to their own preferences. One man's trash is another man's treasure. We can read what we like, but the opinion that matters most is your own. When the Tablet Z2 appears in stores, I'll pop out for a closer look.
[ This Message was edited by: Smaug on 2014-02-28 13:06 ]
Posted by itsjustJOH
Gamers like the saturated look of OLED, that's why the PS Vita update with the LCD screen received negative reactions from consumers. But when viewing pictures and videos, you'd want a more natural look. That's a big advantage for the Z2 over S5's AMOLED. You get enough saturation but not too much and still maintain natural color representation.
To be honest, when the leaks came out and talked about Z2 being just a "refresh", I had low expectations for the device. Now, I am very pleased at what Sony has done as an upgrade with only a 6-month gap. I just can't wait until this comes out and read the reviews.
Posted by Wintermute
The iPhone has a very accurate, well-calibrated display (read: not oversaturated) and it sells just fine. I don't think Sony will lose many sales due to their colors being under-saturated, and they will get quite a few kudos in the tech press. Overall, I'm elated with the progress they've made with the Z2. For just a "refresh," they really managed to improve it across the board. Can't wait to see what they can do this summer, with possibly a refreshed design and a new chipset.
Posted by Gitaroo
On 2014-02-28 13:28:57, Smaug wrote:
@Wintermute
If you find anything interesting, let us know. Sony aren't exactly forthcoming with info on the XZ2 and Tablet Z2's new Live Colour tech; perhaps due to licencing conditions. I've made logical deductions after piecing together info from a variety of sources, but I may be misinformed.
Live Colour on BRAVIA is definitely a software solution run by a dedicated chip; Sony stated as much. Conversely, Triluminos on BRAVIA is a hardware solution. Xperia may be a different story. We're also yet to see whether this remains exclusive to flagship models or whether it will be rolled out across the range. The cheaper Xperia M2 does not incorporate BIONZ or Triluminos so clearly there is a cost involved in implemention, regardless of software/hardware.
QD tech is relatively new; phosphors are not. Plasma TVs use electrically charged gas to emit photons that interact with a phosphor-coated cell plate. It's partially why (among other reasons) plasmas tend to run hot and use more power. If Sony's engineers have solved the tradeoffs associated with phosphor tech, rivals would be scrambling to catch up.
@spw
Yes, I'm aware of the figures in the article, having used it several times myself. However, numbers can be misleading. Just because sensors are a "$3 billion business" does not mean it is a cash cow for Sony. Allow me to elaborate:
Sony sensors sells for an average $7.30. However, if they cost (say) $7.50 to manufacture, Sony would lose money. By increasing production capacity, you can achieve better economies of scale and lower your per-unit costs. The real question is a matter of profit margins. Sony's financial reporting lumps together units, so extrapolating what the margins are for sensors is unclear. For example Samsung, the world's largest supplier of TVs, makes just 3% margin. LG makes virtually 0%. Every BRAVIA TV sells for a loss. VAIO too, in an industry estimated to be worth over $200 billion.
The definition of a cash cow (the term I used) differs, but generally it implies a product line or business unit that generates above-average returns on investment at a stable rate. Popularised by the BGC matrix, it can also be tied to the mature phase of the product development lifecycle. Since sensors must continually evolve and we have little idea of margins, Sony's sensor division cannot be correctly classified as a cash cow. It may be (marginally) profitable, but not a raft to keep Sony afloat.
What we can agree on is that Sony is investing heavily in their sensor (and camera) division. This forms 1 of 3 priority areas Kaz outlined, implying Sony intends to make imaging a core competency. It is also a missed opportunity for a company that has high brand value. The vast majority of people buying iPhones do not realise it contains a Sony sensor. They think it is Apple tech. Sony could focus more on branding their B2B components, just like Intel did with the highly successful "Intel Inside" campaign.
3% profit margin for tv, my god, whats the point of even doing it, at this point its almost like each company just want to stick around long enough and out live the rest so they have the entire market to themselves. I can see samsung doing that cause of the backing they have. I just hope Sony can keep their TV division around especially after triluminos tech being so awesome. It should be the best LCD tech for a long time until OLED become affordable for the mass market.
Posted by amirprog
@Wintermute
My prediction is that the second half flagship biggest hardware upgrade aside of the ordinary snapdragon and ram upgrade will be the camera - bigger sensor, true tone dual led, etc. criticism dictate that the most. about the display - i think samsung won't pressure them much to go 2k as user reception of the z2 ips will be very good. the rest of the improvements could be some/all of these: higher certifications, fingerprint scanner, 3 mics for hd voice, even thinner bezel, exposed waterproofed mini usb, infra red, maybe newer design. but main thing will be the camera.
[ This Message was edited by: amirprog on 2014-02-28 20:12 ]
Posted by vivftp
On 2014-02-28 20:05:43, Wintermute wrote:
The iPhone has a very accurate, well-calibrated display (read: not oversaturated) and it sells just fine. I don't think Sony will lose many sales due to their colors being under-saturated, and they will get quite a few kudos in the tech press. Overall, I'm elated with the progress they've made with the Z2. For just a "refresh," they really managed to improve it across the board. Can't wait to see what they can do this summer, with possibly a refreshed design and a new chipset.
Indeed, it's amusing to see people on the internet ragging on the Z2, claiming that barely anything has changed since the Z1 when in fact so much has changed.
-Larger screen at 5.2"
-VASTLY improved screen for colour reproduction and viewing angles
-Stereo front facing speakers that appear to be on par with the HTC One
-1GB more RAM
-More up to date and faster processor
-New thermal design that allows for 4K video recording, plus the addition of slow-mo recording
-Thinner design, but of course just a bit taller
-No more anti-shatter sheets
All things considered, I think the jump from Z1 to Z1 is overall more meaningful to the end user than the jump from Z to Z1.
EDIT.
And of course to add to the above list...
-Glove mode
-Tap to wake, amongst a host of new software improvements
-The latest version of Android
I honestly think if the Z2 were released an entire 1 year after the Z1, no one would bat an eye if it had top of the line specs like this and all these improvements. That it's coming only a few months later is amazing and makes me excited to see what's next! VERY hopeful for the next Ultra. I hope it's not only got the tech benefits of the Z2, but that they improve upon it even further.
[ This Message was edited by: vivftp on 2014-02-28 20:41 ]
Posted by Gitaroo
@vivftp
-Larger screen at 5.2" -Good, slightly lower ppi won't be noticable
-VASTLY improved screen for colour reproduction and viewing angles - my c6906 is fine, but have to see the Z2 in person
-Stereo front facing speakers that appear to be on par with the HTC One - GREAT!
-1GB more RAM -Z1 never have ram issue even with 4.3 using more memory, won't be noticeable to most
-More up to date and faster processor - the difference is much smaller between z1 to z2 compare to z to z1, same as above
-New thermal design that allows for 4K video recording, plus the addition of slow-mo recording - if these can be ported to z1, not really any additional value
-Thinner design, but of course just a bit taller - rather have it thicker but shorter, fit pocket easier, but this not a con since its onyl tiny bit taller
-No more anti-shatter sheets - I don't mind it, never see what the problem was with them and actually quite like them as I don't have to worry about applying screen protector after purchase
overally jumping from z1 to z2 is much smaller than z to z1.
[ This Message was edited by: Gitaroo on 2014-02-28 20:49 ]
Posted by vivftp
The major points that would make a difference to users are going to be in the form of the screen, front facing stereo speakers, 4k recording thanks to new thermal design (assuming of course it can't be ported to Z1, which may not be the case if the new internal design is the reason for it being able to do 4K recording) and the lack of the anti-shatter sheet.
The jump from the Z to Z1 screen was noticable, but not a huge improvement. This screen, from all accounts so far, is absolutely stunning.
The speakers on the Z to Z1 weren't a huge jump, but this is a massive jump
The 4K recording won't be a huge thing, but I suppose it will matter to some. BTW, Tom's Hardware is where I had heard about the new thermal design:
http://www.tomshardware.com/n[....]393632476667014358476265729875
The lack of the anti-shatter sheets is important because it now means you won't see noticable scratches when viewing the screen. The anti-shatter sheets are relatively easier to scratch than the actual glass on the screens. That means the potential is there, depending on how you handle your phone, for there to be scratches on the anti-shatter sheets (front and back) that you'd have to live with and would possibly affect your enjoyment of the device. And, if the last info I heard on the matter is accurate, removing the anti-shatter sheets voided your warranty on the product.
This way, if you want to add a screen protector then you can choose what you want and go for it. If it gets scratched, just replace it at your leisure. Less hassle all around for the customer. And if you want to enjoy the scratch resistant screen the phone comes with, then you're good to go too.
Posted by Gitaroo
while it does come down to pesonaly preference, 4K was a big deal for me, still bumped that the Z1 doesn't have it. The rest I don't really care except for maybe the screen, but it would make me want to buy the bravie W900 even more cuz a tv is where I view all my media
Posted by vivftp
On 2014-02-28 22:24:42, Gitaroo wrote:
while it does come down to pesonaly preference, 4K was a big deal for me, still bumped that the Z1 doesn't have it. The rest I don't really care except for maybe the screen, but it would make me want to buy the bravie W900 even more cuz a tv is where I view all my media
Based on the Toms Hardware link I posted, it seems the Z2 was only able to record several minutes of 4K video before having to stop due to overheating. If there really was a thermal design change required for the Z2 to even be able to do that, then it's likely the Z1 won't be getting it.
Of course those units they used may not have been final production ones.
Posted by Smaug
On 2014-02-28 20:21:05, Gitaroo wrote:
3% profit margin for tv, my god, whats the point of even doing it, at this point its almost like each company just want to stick around long enough and out live the rest so they have the entire market to themselves. I can see samsung doing that cause of the backing they have. I just hope Sony can keep their TV division around especially after triluminos tech being so awesome. It should be the best LCD tech for a long time until OLED become affordable for the mass market.
Samsung would argue technically they make above average return on investment for their TV business. They are beating the industry average so they claim it is a successful operation. My suspicion is the original plan was drive other players (Sony, Sharp, Panasonic) out of the market, and with less competition margins would return to normal. However with flat panels suffering continuous price deflation and with new cheap Chinese rivals, this won't happen. In a few years Samsung's TV business may well end up in a similar position as BRAVIA. Samsung may be cash-rich but with falling prices you can only cut costs so much. We call it "The race to zero". Its not a game you want to play.
For LG, the No 2 player, I think some quarters are profitable and others run at a loss. Average it out and they make nothing but they don't lose much either. I've actually visited LG's factories in Korea, including one that tested mobile products. I can't publicly describe everything I saw, but nothing blew me away (and I'm not saying that for the benefit of Sony fans).
One qualitative reason for operating a marginal business like TV manufacturing is brand association. Sony would claim (as the No 3 player) BRAVIA has positive association with the Sony brand. It complements the parent company's other products even if it makes nothing in profit. Consumers might buy Sony phones because they know the TVs and look for brand familiarity. After all, Sony Trinitron TVs were legendary. Brand heritage is hard to let go.
Posted by Gitaroo
@Smaug
yeah I agree and I can totally see this will be the case say if Z2 become very popular, which were what Sony is expecting to at least in EU, and people love the screen and find out that they can get a large scale consumer tv using the same tech. The tech seems to be better than all LED LCD and Plasma tv, maybe just behind OLED, but the price is far more affordable than OLED and competitive even compare to other brand flagship Plasma or LED LCD. Speaking of Chinese rivals, there, maybe its because I live in Canada, I don't know any cheap chinese brand around here.
[ This Message was edited by: Gitaroo on 2014-02-28 23:00 ]
Posted by Ricky D
But I guess in Canada you see plenty of Chinese people. They love migrating (on 'investment migration') to Canada then going to pick up their benefits in their BMWs.
Gotta love it...[s]
Posted by Gitaroo
lol, saw that article, good old china smack, to be honest with you, it looks like those women were confused with free gift for all with free gift for the poor, especially when its holiday season.
Posted by Ricky D
you obviously don't know the true nature of a certain group of Chinese women.
I wish I still had notions of giving the benefit of the doubt.
[ This Message was edited by: Ricky D on 2014-03-01 00:11 ]
Posted by Smaug
On 2014-02-28 23:54:47, Gitaroo wrote:
Speaking of Chinese rivals, there, maybe its because I live in Canada, I don't know any cheap chinese brand around here.
They're a dime a dozen. You'll only see a few brands being exported and typically end up in the discount section of Canada's version of Walmart. China has over a hundred native car manufacturers too, but you'd never know it. Their manufacturing prowess is unquestionable and they won't stay confined to their native shores forever.
Without trying to derail the thread, I once worked closely with a Chinese TV manufacturer whose brand also started with "S". Their investment disclosures, corporate financial statements and structure were the very definition of opaque (and that's being polite). If you think Amazon or Google were tax evaders, they had nothing on this lot. Even their own product lineup documents contained pictures of Sony BRAVIA TVs and clear evidence of IP theft. The deeper we dug, the more it stopped being funny and started getting dangerous. Worryingly, this was no small company: they are one of China's top TV brands.
Their phones makers are also numerous, but there are several genuine standouts: Huawei, ZTE and Xiaomi for example. Few have heard of Xiaomi but their mobile sales are fast catching Sony's. They are ultra cheap, have decent specs and their CEOs are very ambitious. We would be wise to remember there was a time when no-one had heard of Samsung either and Apple was on the verge of bankruptcy.
I don't think Kaz loses much sleep over upstart rivals, but it is a poignant reminder that Sony needs to continually invest in what matters most. Focusing on "wowing" customers, creating evocative designs and maintaining their brand image will serve well... but there is an increasing roll-call of analysts calling on Sony to exit the consumer electronics industry.
It would be a sad day indeed if there was no Xperia Rumours 2016 thread, but fortunately that is highly unlikely. Mobile was identified as 1 of Sony's 3 core areas, so we have much to look forward to. The same cannot be said for BRAVIA.
Posted by supercoolman
On 2014-02-28 21:16:57, vivftp wrote:
Indeed, it's amusing to see people on the internet ragging on the Z2, claiming that barely anything has changed since the Z1 when in fact so much has changed.
people were hired to write fake negative about rivals and were caught a few times. why would you think this has stopped?
Posted by HxH
Cheap Chinese brand?, I don't think so
Vivo, Chinese maker already launch first 2K display smartphone with super spec for your $656
http://www.phonearena.com/new[....]tery-life-get-a-review_id53320
Gionee, was last year announce first to using Snapdragon 2.5GHz
http://www.phonearena.com/new[....]n-a-monster-from-China_id53170
Oppo will announce 2K display smartphone in March
----------------------
it will depend how to choose to see it, chinese ain't always cheap.
Posted by AbhiD999
On 2014-03-01 16:09:54, HxH wrote:
Cheap Chinese brand?, I don't think so
Vivo, Chinese maker already launch first 2K display smartphone with super spec for your $656
http://www.phonearena.com/new[....]tery-life-get-a-review_id53320
Gionee, was last year announce first to using Snapdragon 2.5GHz
http://www.phonearena.com/new[....]n-a-monster-from-China_id53170
Oppo will announce 2K display smartphone in March
----------------------
it will depend how to choose to see it, chinese ain't always cheap.
Hardware implementations of Chinese brands can never be relied on. Even Samsung devices are extremely unreliable compared to others(and note that they too used to be the one to bring latest hardware till one year ago). Chinese devices even more unreliable.
Posted by Smaug
You misinterpret me, HxH.
Of course certain Chinese brands offer flagship products whose specs outdo Sony, Samsung, Apple etc. In the same regard, I can point out Toyotas that cost more and outspec an entry level Mercedes A-class and BMW 1-series. This does not imply Toyota is thus an upscale brand on par with Mercedes/BMW.
If you average their product portfolio out, consider factors such as average price, specs, manufacturing cost, brand goodwill, discounts, depreciation, even awards received etc, then my point becomes clearer. Simply because Sony offer a home cinema system more expensive than one from Bang & Olufsen does not mean the two are on the same level. Xperia phones outdo iPhones on a number of factors *on paper*. Yet, the average consumer in the street would probably consider Apple a more "premium" brand than Sony. There are marketing surveys out there to support this assertion.
Yet the margins on the iPhone outperform every known player in the industry. Some estimate the margins for an iPhone 5 to be over 50%. Not even Samsung can match that. So the RRP for an iPhone 5S in the UK is higher than the XZ2, yet is actually cheaper to manufacture and essentially assembled with components made from Samsung, Sony, Sharp etc anyway. In my eyes this makes Apple the "cheaper" brand, but for the average consumer it is irrelevant.
What we can agree on is differences in perception. Brand perception is particularly troublesome as it is often subjective. I've worked with several Chinese firms and it is usually in the top 3 barriers they encounter. Much of it is brought on by themselves, but they are improving and most have ambitious plans. I have always stated as much.
Would you pay $20,000 for a Geely or Great Wall car? How about $40,000? $60,000? The rule of thumb is to charge as much as the market can bear (unless you are dumping stock; a different and occasionally illegal strategy). If Chinese phones could sell for as much as Vertu, they would. They can't because their brands and corporate values are still largely unknown outside China and perceived as cheap(er), regardless of the specs on paper.
Fortunately Sony has enormous brand goodwill due to their heritage (something Chinese brands lack). Sony often rank highly on innovation. It is a pity that Sony doesn't do more to promote this, but financial constraints probably limits them. If funding from VAIO has been redirected to Xperia, this is a promising sign.
Posted by maiaramdan
On 2014-03-01 17:12:36, Smaug wrote:
You misinterpret me, HxH.
Of course certain Chinese brands offer flagship products whose specs outdo Sony, Samsung, Apple etc. In the same regard, I can point out Toyotas that cost more and outspec an entry level Mercedes A-class and BMW 1-series. This does not imply Toyota is thus an upscale brand on par with Mercedes/BMW.
If you average their product portfolio out, consider factors such as average price, specs, manufacturing cost, brand goodwill, discounts, depreciation, even awards received etc, then my point becomes clearer. Simply because Sony offer a home cinema system more expensive than one from Bang & Olufsen does not mean the two are on the same level. Xperia phones outdo iPhones on a number of factors *on paper*. Yet, the average consumer in the street would probably consider Apple a more "premium" brand than Sony. There are marketing surveys out there to support this assertion.
Yet the margins on the iPhone outperform every known player in the industry. Some estimate the margins for an iPhone 5 to be over 50%. Not even Samsung can match that. So the RRP for an iPhone 5S in the UK is higher than the XZ2, yet is actually cheaper to manufacture and essentially assembled with components made from Samsung, Sony, Sharp etc anyway. In my eyes this makes Apple the "cheaper" brand, but for the average consumer it is irrelevant.
What we can agree on is differences in perception. Brand perception is particularly troublesome as it is often subjective. I've worked with several Chinese firms and it is usually in the top 3 barriers they encounter. Much of it is brought on by themselves, but they are improving and most have ambitious plans. I have always stated as much.
Would you pay $20,000 for a Geely or Great Wall car? How about $40,000? $60,000? The rule of thumb is to charge as much as the market can bear (unless you are dumping stock; a different and occasionally illegal strategy). If Chinese phones could sell for as much as Vertu, they would. They can't because their brands and corporate values are still largely unknown outside China and perceived as cheap(er), regardless of the specs on paper.
Fortunately Sony has enormous brand goodwill due to their heritage (something Chinese brands lack). Sony often rank highly on innovation. It is a pity that Sony doesn't do more to promote this, but financial constraints probably limits them. If funding from VAIO has been redirected to Xperia, this is a promising sign.
You choosed the wrong brand sir
1952 the Toyota crown is the first ever executive car and created all the segment of luxury
The latest Supra from the 90th was first total aluminum body car
Lexus LFA was the first ever carbon fiber Car
The rav 4 was the first ever CUV crossover utility vehicle with monoform body, not truck based but a sedan based SUV like
The RX was the first luxurious Crossover
Show some respect, Toyota yearly introducing more than 100 first even new application to whole automotive and technology industries
Lastly Mitsushita Corp where Panasonic, Sharp and Toshiba are parts from Toyota
Posted by Ranjith
^^I don't think he meant to insult TOYOTA,his point was correct too.Brand value holds a lot of value and im pretty sure most people will opt for a BMW/MB in place of a TOYOTA if both cost the same.
Posted by Smaug
On 2014-03-01 19:23:43, Ranjith wrote:
^^I don't think he meant to insult TOYOTA,his point was correct too.Brand value holds a lot of value and im pretty sure most people will opt for a BMW/MB in place of a TOYOTA if both cost the same.
You are 100% correct Ranjith; thank you. I respect your position Mairamdan, but sadly you're jumping to judgement in being defensive. I'm guessing due to brand affection, which is understandable.
Toyota is a great company. In fact, I consider them the best automotive company in the world in their market. We've used Toyota Production System and TQM techniques as best-practice examples for other businesses for years. You, good sir, are preaching to the choir. Simply because I compare them to Mercedes Benz and BMW is not a slant against Toyota in any way. Toyota is certainly innovative and extremely efficient, but they do not command the luxury segment of the auto market like MB/BMW - and nor is it Akio Toyoda's goal to do so.
I feel I've unwittingly led the thread off-topic, so let's keep focused on Xperia guys. If anyone wants to indulge in a friendly discussion off-line, I'd be happy to share a beer if you're in London.
Posted by DexterMoser
No rumors, let's just talk about cars
Posted by ardian
guys do you remember when i told you about xperia arc/z design for the new flagship????
Posted by Smaug
On 2014-03-01 21:52:23, DexterMoser wrote:
No rumors, let's just talk about cars
Well, Sony do have an car and marine entertainment division...
It's not branded as Xperia but you'll see the Sony logo in a few new cars. Everyone is probably familiar with the Xplod brand (which is more centered around speakers and separate stereo decks), but they offer integrated dash systems as well.
Panasonic have moved into automotive parts supplying Tesla with batteries, obviously. It's been a very successful venture for Panasonic. I wouldn't expect Sony to try the same as they are more focused on consumer related products while Panasonic is diversifying into B2B sales, but perhaps there is scope to think creatively.
Even JDI developed a 12" screen specifically for automotive applications. The new Mercedes S-class and Lexus GS/LS have mammoth screens and are packed with tech. I'd love to see Sony branch out more into interactive systems within cars; perhaps partnering with some Japanese auto manufacturers to develop passenger-related hardware or command-based apps combining in-car tech with a mobile platform. Nissan is pretty keen on being at the forefront of digital tech in cars.
Posted by tk007
yes remember tell us good things
Posted by ardian
On 2014-03-01 23:20:02, tk007 wrote:
yes remember tell us good things
well prepare yourself for new beast
810.... better camera... enough for now
Posted by tk007
thnx brother for this info
& also thnx for keeping this thread alive
Posted by ardian
On 2014-03-01 23:25:08, tk007 wrote:
thnx brother for this info
& also thnx for keeping this thread alive
no problem mate... and another thing... maybe xenon
Posted by tk007
ohhh myyyy xenon
arc/z design that's gona be very best of SONY
Posted by vivftp
Hmmm, so Arc-like design, Snapdragon 810, better camera and maybe xenon flash eh?
Well if this all happens, I'm REALLY hoping they'll delay the next Ultra launch so that it'll have the exact same feature set as the next flagship.
Posted by maiaramdan
On 2014-03-01 23:19:42, Smaug wrote:
On 2014-03-01 21:52:23, DexterMoser wrote:
No rumors, let's just talk about cars
Well, Sony do have an car and marine entertainment division...
It's not branded as Xperia but you'll see the Sony logo in a few new cars. Everyone is probably familiar with the Xplod brand (which is more centered around speakers and separate stereo decks), but they offer integrated dash systems as well.
Panasonic have moved into automotive parts supplying Tesla with batteries, obviously. It's been a very successful venture for Panasonic. I wouldn't expect Sony to try the same as they are more focused on consumer related products while Panasonic is diversifying into B2B sales, but perhaps there is scope to think creatively.
Even JDI developed a 12" screen specifically for automotive applications. The new Mercedes S-class and Lexus GS/LS have mammoth screens and are packed with tech. I'd love to see Sony branch out more into interactive systems within cars; perhaps partnering with some Japanese auto manufacturers to develop passenger-related hardware or command-based apps combining in-car tech with a mobile platform. Nissan is pretty keen on being at the forefront of digital tech in cars.
Last thing Sony and Honda is the same Corp.!!!
And on the car tech. Sony already have Ford and Lincoln
So tk007, vibftp and ardian return the thread again to Sony
Arc design from the back, omni like front with the 810
Posted by Smaug
On 2014-03-02 00:02:40, maiaramdan wrote:
Last thing Sony and Honda is the same Corp.!!!
I feel like we're kicking a dead horse here, but your comment is utterly baffling and I doubt I'm the only one confused. Perhaps something got lost in translation. Are you indicating Sony and Honda are the same company ("Corp")?
You might want to revisit your assertion. They are separately listed companies:
http://www.bloomberg.com/quote/6758:JP
http://www.bloomberg.com/quote/7267:JP
Furthermore, I used to teach Honda as a business case in my younger days. Fascinating case study. Here is not the place to discuss it other than to make clear at no point in Honda's history were they the same company, owned, merged or formed part of a joint venture with, Sony. They may have collaborated in some R&D, but this is not the same as what you imply.
If you'd like to discuss it further in a mature manner, lets take it off-line through PMs ok?
Posted by DexterMoser
On 2014-03-01 23:23:13, ardian wrote:
On 2014-03-01 23:20:02, tk007 wrote:
yes remember tell us good things
well prepare yourself for new beast
810.... better camera... enough for now
Man, I'm wowed, haha
Thanks for the update, very interesting.
I wonder what will happen to S805 if the presumably Z3 will be official on IFA 2014?
Posted by maloqs
Ardian is that still 16gb?
Posted by qkp1994
@ ardian, is it still going to be waterproof with this design?
Posted by supercoolman
US carriers will see themselves lagging behind rest of the world for XPERIA.
Posted by DyaRenz
Does that mean we are having Plastic Back??
Or Sony decided to make it more epic and made and arc glass back
?
And what about the plastic back from sony that was revealed sometime ago.. Does that have anything to do for the Next design??
Edit#
Link
http://www.phonearena.com/new[....]-along-with-some-specs_id51533
Notice the specs mentioned in the article might be the Z3
With improved 23MP ..ZOMG talked about and 5.3 screen ( 2K of course)....... And the interesting is that back...
I personally think it belongs to the d660x if anyone still remember it xD
[ This Message was edited by: DyaRenz on 2014-03-02 01:35 ]
Posted by vikeviki
Guys shall I go for ,Z2,already I have lost z1 with lot of disappointment and badluck,what you do people suggest?