Posted by hihihans
Was: Shootout voting
I'm starting this thread to discuss the possibilities of a new voting system in the
shootout competition
There are lots of options.
Keep it to 1 vote
Vote for multiple photos
Keep the discussion here so we can focus on the photos in the "official thread"
[ This Message was edited by: tranced on 2013-07-01 13:57 ]
Posted by mlife
Keep it as it is, simple and fun. There are no prizes involved and entries are on a voluntary basis so lets not muck up the works with a bunch of unnecessary new changes. Its as simple as, if you don't like you don't have to participate.
Posted by alenn
Here are my ideas:
Each contributing photo should be numerized eg. I enter first so I put above the photo the correct number etc..
So when we vote we just enter a few numbers
So it is easier.
Posted by thesun
I am sticking to my opinion, voting systen should be reform.
end of the month, users get to vote the best three of their likes.
the best picture earn 3 points
2nd best earn 2 points
3rd best earn 1 point.
then, after all users have voted their 3 best pictures, the winner will be selected by summing up all the points..
using this system, even the second best picture of most user choice will get to win the competition.
Posted by emporium
[ This Message was edited by: emporium on 2013-11-03 13:41 ]
Posted by tranced
I understand your point here, Hans. In recent competitions, some users have put their arguments regarding the voting system, which seem to be valid as we all have different points of views.
Maybe we could take it a little bit more "pro" as our phones are smarter than some years ago. Now we have camera apps that help us to take better photos.
thesun's idea sounds nice. Users have clearly nominated more than one photos and just selecting one as winner. The process still simple.
Posted by hihihans
Lots of users do give their second choice too. I'm willing to give it a try. But is 3-2-1 point correct? We could even make it 5-3-2 points.
I'm just testing the water .
Posted by tranced
3-2-1 is easier I'd say.
Posted by thesun
On 2013-07-01 15:59:00, hihihans wrote:
Lots of users do give their second choice too. I'm willing to give it a try. But is 3-2-1 point correct? We could even make it 5-3-2 points.
I'm just testing the water .
because normally everymonth, voter turn out is less than 50 users.
Posted by hihihans
true. We have an average of 15 entries and 25 votes. Most of the times the winning photo has 50% of the votes.
Posted by Ricky D
The voting system doesn't need changing, one man (or woman) one vote. Keep it simple.
Usually the best picture wins. In fact, I can't remember a poor photo winning except a while back when we had a spate of new users all voting for the same photo.
A 3-2-1 system is still open to abuse too. And, I'm not sure if I can be bothered to pick a second and a third photo.
Also, second place holds no prizes. The end result is the same only more effort on behalf of the voter.
Posted by Ricky D
Voting mechanics dictates a simple one vote per person, one point per vote for a system like this.
There aren't hundreds of photos and hundreds of votes so increasing the complexity is a waste of time and is more effort.
Posted by Marly
I'm neutral, as I hardly ever participate in the shootouts, but I usually do vote, so have an opinion and I agree with mlife, Ricky D and ceaser2008 (in the thread of the June competition), that we shouldn't complicate things.
The Esato photo competition is clean, simple fun, the winner doesn't get thousands of $'s, nor a prestigious gold medal, only the joy of winning and being able to pick next month's theme.
Which is why we should keep voting simple aswell, not turn it into rocket sience.
[ This Message was edited by: Marly on 2013-07-02 01:36 ]
Posted by hihihans
Another option; secret voting.
Sending the vote to me through PM
That way people are not influenced by other members votes.
Posted by rikken
Keep it simple, one person, one vote
Posted by alenn
Truly, votes shouldn't influence anyone.
Just my thought.
Posted by thesun
I dont find my system is too complex or hard to comprehend.
right now the voting system is also calculating all votes, that means, all winners are also announced..
for example
david- 9 votes
gary- 5 votes
emma- 3 votes
david won because he got 9 votes, but votes for gary and emma also had to be counted, and automatically we know that gary is in the second place and emma is the third..
this means, even the current system also is "complex" according to your definition.
Posted by hihihans
I publish all votes and voters to keep it clear and pure. Everyone can check if I counted correct.
Posted by Del
As some of the others have said, let's keep it simple, one person one vote, I know I very rarely enter the photo competitions but I do browse through them and enjoy other members photos, and I do vote on the ones I like.
Posted by thesun
Lol.. Dont tell me u need an app for this voting system in ur phone
Posted by Sonysta
I agree with the system proposed by Thesun, because it is the most fair and consistent !!!
"End of the month, users get to vote the best three of their likes.
the best picture earn 3 points
2nd best earn 2 points
3rd best earn 1 point.
Then, after all users have voted their 3 best pictures, the winner will be selected by summing up all the points" !
Posted by mlife
..... And WHAT-IF you only like one of the images? Are you going to FORCE users into voting for two other images because that's the new RULE?.... that forced vote could impact the final winner. I don't get why it seems we're trying to reinvent the wheel here? silly-ness
Posted by Hobbs
I also dont parcipate in the shootouts but do tend to vote on a monthly basis just to support the great works of all shooters and there efforts.For me it simple.Hans lays the end out all nicly for us.If a photo is there it has passed all criteria.I go through them,choose the one that touches me and vote.Its simple.Leave it as it is.
Posted by thesun
On 2013-07-02 05:03:28, mlife wrote:
..... And WHAT-IF you only like one of the images? Are you going to FORCE users into voting for two other images because that's the new RULE?.... that forced vote could impact the final winner. I don't get why it seems we're trying to reinvent the wheel here? silly-ness
other photo will not earn any point.
the point is to give the more preferred picture extra one point than the picture next to it.
lets just limit the number to three most preferred picture.
otherwise it will become more trouble to select 30 pictures abd give points to each picture from 1 to 30 points fir example.
[ This Message was edited by: thesun on 2013-07-02 08:56 ]
Posted by hihihans
I'm in favour of one vote each also. But I'm always open for changes.
I thought of another system;
You have 3 points to give. How, is up to you.
3 times 1 point
1 time 3 points
1 time 1 point and 1 time 2 points
Posted by thesun
On 2013-07-02 11:42:00, hihihans wrote:
I'm in favour of one vote each also. But I'm always open for changes.
I thought of another system;
You have 3 points to give. How, is up to you.
3 times 1 point
1 time 3 points
1 time 1 point and 1 time 2 points
it will be alright if every contestant gets their marks by the same judge.
but this will favor those who made the last desicion,
for example early voters give out 1 mark,
last minute voter will give 3 marks to save their friend.
eventually, people will start giving maximum 3 marks and not 2 or 1 anymore
Posted by mlife
On 2013-07-02 09:50:41, thesun wrote:
............
if u like only one photo, the photo only earn one point instead of three since no other photo along with it.
other photo will not earn any point.
the point is to give the more preferred picture extra one point than the picture next to it.
lets just limit the number to three most preferred picture.
?? WTH ?? so because I only like ONE of the pictures my opinion is basically discarded and given 1/3 the consideration of someone who can't make up their mind on which photo is best?
On 2013-07-02 09:50:41, thesun wrote:
otherwise it will become more trouble to select 30 pictures abd give points to each picture from 1 to 30 points fir example.
[ This Message was edited by: thesun on 2013-07-02 08:56 ]
More trouble?? if thats what your worried about isn't selecting three photos "more trouble" than simply selecting what you think is best?? Now im confused.... whats going on here???
[ This Message was edited by: mlife on 2013-07-02 12:14 ]
Posted by thesun
On 2013-07-02 13:13:13, mlife wrote:
On 2013-07-02 09:50:41, thesun wrote:
............
if u like only one photo, the photo only earn one point instead of three since no other photo along with it.
other photo will not earn any point.
the point is to give the more preferred picture extra one point than the picture next to it.
lets just limit the number to three most preferred picture.
?? WTH ?? so because I only like ONE of the pictures my opinion is basically discarded and given 1/3 the consideration of someone who can't make up their mind on which photo is best?
On 2013-07-02 09:50:41, thesun wrote:
otherwise it will become more trouble to select 30 pictures abd give points to each picture from 1 to 30 points fir example.
[ This Message was edited by: thesun on 2013-07-02 08:56 ]
More trouble?? if thats what your worried about isn't selecting three photos "more trouble" than simply selecting what you think is best?? Now im confused.... whats going on here???
[ This Message was edited by: mlife on 2013-07-02 12:14 ]
1 choice 30 pr
2nd choice 29
...
...
...
...
...
...
..
30th choice 1 pt
given there are 30 voters or maybe more as voters might not necessaryly join the competition.
this means at least 900 calculation need to be done after aumming up all points from all voters for each entry to decide the winner.
do u get it?
Posted by thesun
Also the compulsory 3 pictures selection gives the voter chances instead of either vote one or dont vote at all.
the current system, only allow one picture,
bear in mind many users wanted to vote more than one, but since this is not allowed, maybe they dont vote at all.
we want to promote this competition, then we must allow changes.
if u want to vote for one, then it is still allowed, the voted picture gets ur plus 1 point still.
and others dont get points from u at all, this means only ur picture advances.
Posted by Marly
So you mean, when I only vote for one picture, this gets one point, but when someone else votes for three pics, his second choice gets two points, i.e. his second choice gets more points, than the photo I voted best? So to give the maximum amount of points to the pic of which I think, it's the best, I'm more or less forced to vote for three pics? Let me put this straight: nobody, on any internet-site can force me to do anything, either I vote once, or I don't vote at all.
So far for promoting this competition......
Posted by Ricky D
@thesun, I admire your valiant defence of your proposed system over others, and that this conversation hasn't dropped to the levels that the rumours thread drops after the slightest misunderstanding, however, for the current number of photos and voters we have (repeatedly less than 30) and the structure of the competition (one winner, with no prizes for second or third place), the only option that really makes sense is the one vote system.
Your main point for arguing a 3-2-1 system is that it is less open to voting for lesser photos correct? I argue that in fact, little difference is made and IF any difference is made it is to the opposite of what would be desired, which we can all agree is the best photo wins. The reason very little difference is made is that dishonest voters will still vote dishonestly, but crucially, they will have stronger votes (3 votes instead of 1).
I honestly don't see much evidence of fixed voting, I always vote honestly for what I think is the best and 9 times out of 10 most people agree (or at least I can see why the winning photo won).
Posted by thesun
On 2013-07-02 15:15:14, Marly wrote:
So you mean, when I only vote for one picture, this gets one point, but when someone else votes for three pics, his second choice gets two points, i.e. his second choice gets more points, than the photo I voted best? So to give the maximum amount of points to the pic of which I think, it's the best, I'm more or less forced to vote for three pics? Let me put this straight: nobody, on any internet-site can force me to do anything, either I vote once, or I don't vote at all.
So far for promoting this competition......
ur chosen pic will advance at 1 pt more than other pic.
well that is your choice.
the reason of this voting system is that it require more majority effort for selecting the best picture of all.
its not about selecting the second or third place winner.
On 2013-07-02 16:57:59, Ricky D wrote:
@thesun, I admire your valiant defence of your proposed system over others, and that this conversation hasn't dropped to the levels that the rumours thread drops after the slightest misunderstanding, however, for the current number of photos and voters we have (repeatedly less than 30) and the structure of the competition (one winner, with no prizes for second or third place), the only option that really makes sense is the one vote system.
Your main point for arguing a 3-2-1 system is that it is less open to voting for lesser photos correct? I argue that in fact, little difference is made and IF any difference is made it is to the opposite of what would be desired, which we can all agree is the best photo wins. The reason very little difference is made is that dishonest voters will still vote dishonestly, but crucially, they will have stronger votes (3 votes instead of 1).
I honestly don't see much evidence of fixed voting, I always vote honestly for what I think is the best and 9 times out of 10 most people agree (or at least I can see why the winning photo won).
then you should not be worried about my voting system. I am not trying to cheat the voting, in fact, improvising it to find the real winner. If the picture is great, no doubt it will win in my suggested system.
[ This Message was edited by: thesun on 2013-07-02 18:12 ]
Posted by hihihans
I see we have two systems in favor now.
•1 vote 1 point
•3 votes 3-2-1 points
If we do the 3-2-1 system I would like to give the option of voting for 1 or 2 photos. These votes would give 3 and 2 points. Giving only 1 point is crazy if a "worse" pic gets 2 points from someone else who agrees with you.
Valse voting has always been here but as long as a good photo wins nobody really cares.
I had a friend here who voted 3 months in a row for me, I would have send him a pm to stop if he did it in the fourth month also. I like to get votes but not because we had a nice chat.
I never really noticed someone voting for a "bad" photo in order to come out better themself.
Posted by etaab
I agree with keeping it as it is. Theres nothing wrong with the voting system at all imo.
I only have a beef with some of the images submitted sometimes. Mainly regarding images which have no effort put into them and get more votes than other people who take time, planning and real effort into their entries.
That in itself does more damage to the competition in regards to people not wanting to participate when their well thought out intelligent efforts get little or no votes and a picture which took no thought or effort either gets lots of votes or even wins.
I vote keep it as it is.
Posted by Marly
On 2013-07-02 20:22:00, hihihans wrote:
I never really noticed someone voting for a "bad" photo in order to come out better themself.
I haven't seen this either, tbh.
@thesun, are you sure, people have been cheating by voting for a photo they consider "bad"?
Maybe you think it's a "bad" picture, but they liked it for some reason (composition, subject, colour)? Not everybody has the same taste, which is a good thing
Posted by hihihans
Art is a strange thing. We are discussing the voting system to get a more balaced winning photo. There will always be someone that thinks the winning photo is crap.
Posted by etaab
Its not so much about the winning, rather that some people don't get votes which they otherwise would deserve. That's the only fault with the voting but theres no way to police it.
I remember last year there was one particular month where the winning photo in most peoples opinions was average to poor. But what mattered most was that some of the entrants were quite disappointed they didn't get a single vote. Which was surprising because some were really good images.
Posted by mlife
@thesun
So if I don't like three of the images, can I vote for the same image three times thus giving it 6 points?
or better yet, lets use your system but if someone chooses to only vote once their vote counts a point for every year they have been a member on ESATO.
@ no one specific
Sorry, this idea is quite meretricious ... everybody wants to be the hero in suggesting new ways to do things "better" but in reality we are only making a fun/simple thing more complex then it need be. If you like a picture vote for it.... if you don't.. well then, don't vote for it. If your upset that you didn't get any votes BOOOHOOO... try harder next month, we've all entered an lost... NO BIG DEAL after all its just for FUN.
Cheers
[ This Message was edited by: mlife on 2013-07-03 01:09 ]
Posted by thesun
First of all, its not about me.
Secondly, its time to move on. Isnt it a nice way to appreciate all the contestant if the voting standard has been upped?
Withe this method, i believe the difficulty to be a true winner is much more difficult, but not impossible, clear winner is still a clear winner, contestants have put alot of effort to make their pictures comply to the theme. Would not it be nice if the voting too put extra effort of selecting the winner? Afterall, everybody can vote.
Thirdly, i dont know about all of you, but my brains clearly does not work like a binary system, either 1 or 0 only.
Posted by thesun
On 2013-07-02 23:08:02, etaab wrote:
Its not so much about the winning, rather that some people don't get votes which they otherwise would deserve. That's the only fault with the voting but theres no way to police it.
I remember last year there was one particular month where the winning photo in most peoples opinions was average to poor. But what mattered most was that some of the entrants were quite disappointed they didn't get a single vote. Which was surprising because some were really good images.
please watch this video on youtube to understand better why i proposed this system
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Y3jE3B8HsE
[ This Message was edited by: thesun on 2013-07-03 02:00 ]
Posted by mlife
On 2013-07-03 02:45:26, thesun wrote:
On 2013-07-02 23:08:02, etaab wrote:
Its not so much about the winning, rather that some people don't get votes which they otherwise would deserve. That's the only fault with the voting but theres no way to police it.
I remember last year there was one particular month where the winning photo in most peoples opinions was average to poor. But what mattered most was that some of the entrants were quite disappointed they didn't get a single vote. Which was surprising because some were really good images.
please watch this video on youtube to understand better why i proposed this system
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Y3jE3B8HsE
[ This Message was edited by: thesun on 2013-07-03 02:00 ]
Great, you're not the only one that noticed... lots of people join cults too, does that make it a better organization?
And SORRY, but it IS about WINNING or would we even be entering/voting at all??? to say that "some people don't get votes which they otherwise would deserve" is ridiculous... If I wanted to vote for "that" image, wouldn't I have? You can't force votes out of me if I only like one image and its unfair to weigh that vote less points because I have the ability to make a decision (I'm sure even you would agree with that, I hope)... So stop trying to pat everyone on the A$$ --- if your so concerned with giving everyone a warm hug for entering, why not rank every photo so EVERYONE in essence gets a vote... YEAH, that is ridiculous, isn't it?!?!- I'm glad you get it.
This is just silly and I hope the collective of this board doesn't allow this simple & fun shootout to become some elaborate process just so a few feelings aren't hurt because they didn't get anyone to vote for them.
Posted by thesun
lol.. I dont get it why you are so against to this new system.
or do you really need a third party account that never participated in the contest or even out of esato forum to suggest this idea so only that way will convince you that this isnt about butthurted people, but a fair contest.
if the picture is good, it will win in any system.
it will be on the top on my proposed system, and also the current system.
i dont see why you would be so against it. Unless you voted for the lesser one? Only god knows.. Lol
[ This Message was edited by: thesun on 2013-07-03 05:31 ]
Posted by Hobbs
In photography its very hard to say that one photo is better than anothers. A photograph speaks to each individual in a different way. Etaab mentioned Cupcakes zoo photo with the elephant been better than most the entries yet she didnt get much votes. I considered voting for it but just couldnt. The water pond on the left of the photo had been chopped. If that photo had been taken a little bit more to the left where the whole water pond showed it would have been a winner for me. Some photos are taken where no cropping is neccessary first time round. Some are taken where cropping is neccessary to save the photo.
I dont know why im waffling on here other than to say 1 vote is all that is needed if people just take more time and put more thought into that 1 vote. You can vote one day and choose a photo and vote the very next day with the same selection of photos and choose differently. Photography also depends on your mood.
Posted by Ricky D
A 3 vote system requires more effort from the point of view of the voter and the calculator. It is also completely unnecessary nigh on detrimental to the competition as it gives dishonest voters triple the opportunity to vote 'against' a good photo.
If you openly admit a 3 vote system wouldn't effect the outcome why push it so hard?
I don't want to discourage progressive thinking or new ideas but we should have sense enough to know when, after evaluation, an idea doesn't make the grade.
How about this, we let the previous winner decide the voting system for their month's theme? Only this may be even more confusing as it could change every month.
Another thing, why is the suggestion a 3 vote system instead of a 2 vote (2 points for 1st choice, 1 point for second) system? Or why not rank all the entries top to bottom and the number of points run according to the number of entries? Either of these two make more sense than a 3 vote, but still neither I'd prefer over a straight forward, simple for everyone, 1 vote system.
Posted by Hobbs
In photography its very hard to say that one photo is better than anothers. A photograph speaks to each individual in a different way. Etaab mentioned Cupcakes zoo photo with the elephant been better than most the entries yet she didnt get much votes. I considered voting for it but just couldnt. The water pond on the left of the photo had been chopped. If that photo had been taken a little bit more to the left where the whole water pond showed it would have been a winner for me. Some photos are taken where no cropping is neccessary first time round. Some are taken where cropping is neccessary to save the photo.
I dont know why im waffling on here other than to say 1 vote is all that is needed if people just take more time and put more thought into that 1 vote. You can vote one day and choose a photo and vote the very next day with the same selection of photos and choose differently. Photography also depends on your mood.
Posted by thesun
@ricky
it will have no effect on the very best pjoto, but there is a point where two or more are equally good in that month,
this way the winner will have lesser chance of getting sabotaged votes. See the video.
@hobbs
this is not just about last month.
but i seen it long ago.
and yes, choosing the best one is hard, that why the voting system must be upgraded too.
once you have voted, you cnnot changed it. Unlike the entries, you are allowed to change the photo.
[ This Message was edited by: thesun on 2013-07-03 09:23 ]
Posted by rikken
On 2013-07-03 06:28:37, thesun wrote:
if the picture is good, it will win in any system.
it will be on the top on my proposed system, and also the current system.
Why complicate things if the same picture end up winning ?
I say stick to the old system, vote for the picture you like the most
Posted by thesun
On 2013-07-03 10:25:22, rikken wrote:
On 2013-07-03 06:28:37, thesun wrote:
if the picture is good, it will win in any system.
it will be on the top on my proposed system, and also the current system.
Why complicate things if the same picture end up winning ?
I say stick to the old system, vote for the picture you like the most
i said IF with a big IF the picture is the best. It should win easily in my system.
but not the same for the pictures that are equally good.
take a ferrari, it will win over a daihatsu anytime.
but if compare to lamboghini, it wont be so easy win
Posted by mlife
Why don't we just vote on which voting system to use... seeing as thesun doesn't like our current voting system of 1 vote per person system, I propose we vote on it.... here is how it will work;
1) everyone ranks their preference for voting system in descending order of their preference-
a- One vote per entry
b- two votes per entry
c- three votes per enty
d- a vote for each entry
2) You write down your votes on 3x5 index cards (with rank included) and mail them to hihihans.
3) hihi will then sort the cards in the order he feels they are valid and mail them to thesun
4) thesun then chooses the top three cards and ranks them 1 to 3 where the number 2 rank is the winner!!!!
We all agree to then to use that voting system for the shootout going forward.... wooohoo
Posted by hihihans
I like that @mlife but that could be done easier. just the one vote one point system and number two wins