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N8 vs Satio - Camera Shootout


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Posted by false_morel
To begin with, two nightshots..
Both hand-held, same position, same conditions..

N8:

Original

Satio

Original


Posted by etaab
Could you upload both to imageshack and rezise them to 1024 size, for better forum comparions whilst keeping the originals linked ?

From those rather small examples i prefer the N8.

Posted by zide
Hard to compare as they use two completely different ISO's.

N8-700, Satio-100

Despite being darker, Satio's is obviously better.

Posted by Bonovox
Satio has noisier photos from what I have seen before

Posted by false_morel

On 2010-12-08 20:01:37, etaab wrote:
Could you upload both to imageshack and rezise them to 1024 size, for better forum comparions whilst keeping the originals linked ?


Already thought about it..
I'll be uploading some number of photos and it would take time to do it all over imageshack.. You know, more clicks and copy-pasting..
Then, the originals are what counts.. And on imageshack, one has to download the photos to own destop to view full size..
So the whole process is some pain in the ass for both sides if we're talking about tens of pics!
I prefer Esato's way for efficiency..

-----------------------------------------

As to the first two pics,
It's one hard choice despite the obvious difference in the two results.
Detail better on the N8, but noise higher as well. This is expected.
As with noise/detail, even in daylight, the Satio's approach is about aggressive noise reduction on teh expense of some detail (consumer friendly), while Nokia's approach is about highest detail possible while maintaining an acceptable level of noise (prof way)..

Now as to the overall exposure and color rendering, here comes the confusion. Specially the point Vit talked about.
What's better: Low ISO with slower SS, or High ISO with faster SS?
The difference is completely obvious in those two photos.

The issue here, if both cameras are handed full user control over SS and ISO, there is no doubt the N8 would by far deliver higher-quality photos!
With lack of those controls, we have to settle with those two "automatic" approaches where it's difficult to pick a winner.

With automatic setting (night scene mode) the Satio delivers more realistic results, while the N8 delivers oversaturated photos (could be more pleasing to the average user) but with better detail/noise handeling..
Now, with playing with the EVs (lowering the EV a little on the N8 whereas it lowers the ISO with it) or by post-processing better results could be achieved by the N8.
Highering the ISO on the Satio would ruin the photo by excessive noise and lack of detail at the same!!

That's why I consider N8's approach with those cemeraphone limitations is better.
First, one could play more with the availabe setting to achieve the best results.
Second, much faster and easier snaps due to lower SS. No blurs, no need for tripods or steady hands, just point and shoot once..

But credits should be given to SE for producing such a user friendly cameraphone.. Which despite a year older, still very much up for the competition..

More examples to come. And of course other scenes comparisons.

Posted by etaab
See, id disagree with anyone who would say the Satio takes better pictures, especially at night time, remember my comparisons of night shots ?

Satio VS N8 night shots

Posted by false_morel
I have some extra time, here are etaab's pics from the other thread.
Same comments as on the pics I provided above.
Only thing to note here, with etaab switching from night mode to normal mode in th esecond pic, the N8 went for faster SS rather but kept the ISO teh same! It would have been nicer if the EVs were played with or the ISO solely..

Satio







Nokia N8









Posted by false_morel
Here are Vit photos:

N8 (ISO-500, 1/5s Shutter Speed):



Satio (ISO-100, 1s Shutter Speed):




N8īs crops:



Satioīs crops:




First of all, it's important to note that the two photos were shot at completely different times, different positions, and different angles!

Despite that, some comments:

Details/noise handling as other examples..
At ISO 500 the N8 for my taste delivered a better exposed scene.. I can't be sure since one needs to see the scene with bare eyes, but fact is the two photos were shot at two different times it's hard to tell the better exposure anyway..



Posted by false_morel
Ok, back to imageshack.. Didn't know only ten photos allowed per day on Esato..

Notes:
- Pics on Satio feel closer because of the wide angle lens on then N8. The two cameras were held at exactly same position and at same angle all over the shootout.
- These photos were for comparison purposes, not to pull out the max of each camera or some artistic/appealing images.
- Satio's photos top, N8's bottom all over the post.





Close-up, flash on, indoors, lightbulb..

One feels a little touch of over-exposure by the Satio.
Tight win for N8.

--------------------------





Close range, flash on, indoors, lighbulb

More detail and less noise on the N8!
Realistic color represesntation as well compared to Satio's too colorful photo!

--------------------------





Close-up, flash off, indoors, low light condition

Both photos tuned up blury.. Expected under such conditions with the cameras hand-held.
I could have held them more firmly however..

Anyway, it's a huge win for the N8!

--------------------------





Medium range, flash on indoors, lighbulb

More detail and less noise on N8!
Much better color representation..
Satio coloring the scene too much as well, but better flash uniformity!

--------------------------





Medium range, flash on, indoors, lighbulb

Catasrophe!
Blue turned green on the N8!!

Instead of correcting the white balance, the N8 f*cked it up!!
Horrible..

Here's with manual White Balance correction before shooting, but still horrible:



Any suggestions to why the N8 performed that horribly in this scene?!
I tried everything.. White Balance, EV, ISO, contrast, scene modes.. All gave similar horrible color rendering!
Post-processing didn't help either!

--------------------------





Medium range, flash off, indoors, lighbulb

Still the same..

However, this time with manual white balance corrections, the N8 wakes up:



Very appealing. Huge difference! And defintely beats the Satio.. But not "automatically"!!

--------------------------

So, indoors under low light conditions the N8 was superior. With exception of that blue curtain phot with flash on! I'm still in shock!!

Anyway, still two scenes will be posted indoors with daylight coming through..
Then, I'll move outside.. Hopefully the sun will drop in the coming days.. We haven't seen her for weeks now.
[ This Message was edited by: false_morel on 2010-12-11 10:46 ]


Posted by jake20
I have stated previously, that the N8 suffers in indoor low light flash photography.
I believe Damian Dinning is working on this mode for next firmware update.

All of my indoor shots either come out too blue or too yellow.

The settings i have found which provide me with the best indoor flash details are

1. Red eye flash
2. Sunny White Balance
3. -0.5 exposure compensation
4. Color Tone Normal
5. ISO LOW

Its still not great, but its the best balance (for me) of accurate color tones and good exposure



Posted by false_morel

On 2010-12-11 22:30:56, jake20 wrote:
I have stated previously, that the N8 suffers in indoor low light flash photography.
I believe Damian Dinning is working on this mode for next firmware update.

All of my indoor shots either come out too blue or too yellow.

The settings i have found which provide me with the best indoor flash details are

1. Red eye flash
2. Sunny White Balance
3. -0.5 exposure compensation
4. Color Tone Normal
5. ISO LOW

Its still not great, but its the best balance (for me) of accurate color tones and good exposure


Well, Damian talked about improving the N8's flash capability, as there is a smaller Xenon flash module installed on it than the average. But never talked about fixing a major flaw like that!
This is incorrect color rendering. There is something wrong in the algorithem implemented by Nokia to render colors and correct the white balance!

And actually, the N8 doesn't perform bad at all with flash photos!
Just look at that indoors photo of the universal bank and the dumbles beside it.
The same lighting conditions, same range to that of the "Blue Curtain" photo, yet, it delivered one excellent quality photo!
And it beat the Satio in that scene.
Only thing about the Satio, it distributes the flash more uniformly and not concentrated in one area of the photo.
Despite that, the N8 got the right exposure, and delivered a higher-quality photo on all aspects!

With the Curtain photo, at first, when I point the N8 towards the curtain, it views it well.
Then a second or two, it turns green!
Funny, though, if I shoot half the curtain with half teh wall beside it, the N8 performs quite well.. That's because the wall i all white and the N8 goes for different approach than with an all blue scene..

Realy weird. But good that with the N8 one needs no flash in such conditions. Without flash,by adjusting the white balance manually, it delivers some excellent photos as shown above..

Posted by false_morel
Yes Bono, I believe there is nothing wrong with N8's flash photos.. I agree with Jake that the flash could haven been more powerful or just as Damian suggested that some driver updates would improve it.. But for now, it's more than good.

That major flaw in white balancing, I consider it an exceptoin. It's nothing that one has to worry about. It couldn't be reproduced that easily by any flash use..

Still, this should be addressed and fixed..

Edit: Added the "not"!
[ This Message was edited by: false_morel on 2010-12-14 04:06 ]


Posted by Bonovox
Not sure if it's my imagination but the flash seems to be quite clever. The camera sensor seems to sense how far you are from your subject & the flash fires at the right level depending on distance.

Posted by Vit

On 2010-12-09 23:50:58, false_morel wrote:
Here are Vit photos:

N8 (ISO-500, 1/5s Shutter Speed):



Satio (ISO-100, 1s Shutter Speed):




N8īs crops:



Satioīs crops:




First of all, it's important to note that the two photos were shot at completely different times, different positions, and different angles!

Despite that, some comments:

Details/noise handling as other examples..
At ISO 500 the N8 for my taste delivered a better exposed scene.. I can't be sure since one needs to see the scene with bare eyes, but fact is the two photos were shot at two different times it's hard to tell the better exposure anyway..




Yeah, they were taken in different times. But that doesnīt mean a thing here. Theyīve got exactly the same exposure:

1s * ISO 100 = 100 ISO * s

1/5s * ISO 500 = 100 ISO * s.

Perfectly comparable shots. The angle difference is merely an artistic one. It doesnīt interfere with the technical comparison.

Anyway, some things donīt change, like the street gas lamps. They are exactly the same.

We can see that the N8 has a vastly superior optics, which provide much more resolved resolution than Satioīs unit. You can see that by the sharpness of light sources at night. Light spots in Satioīs samples look a bit fuzzy, and thatīs not a misfocus issue. In the N8 samples, these spots look perfectly round and sharp. Thatīs why people use to complain about Satioīs camera and to compare then to some 5mpixel cameraphones. I guess itīs resolved resolution in quite low for a 12 mpixel sensor.

Anyway, I reckon that the Satio shot is a better representation of the scene when looked downsized to match my display res. N8īs advantage only shows if you look at them at the max res.

Besides that, the n8 tends to overexposure pics at night. Sometimes you need to select -1,5 EV in order to get the scene right.

Iīve bought another Satio last week. I was not satisfied with N8īs shots. Iīll soon post some shoot out pics of these two.

The N8 simply kills the chroma noise, so all its high-ISO shots lack saturation. Tha Satio is better in this regard, IMO.

I am confident that Satioīs main problem is poor optics. Its lacks resolution and itīs also prone to both flare and chromatic fringing. But I prefer Sonyīs approach when it comes to noise reduction. You can always diminish the noise levels with Photoshop or similar programs.

Itīs weird to think that Damian Dinning has said that his team prefer to render N8īs pics good for post-processing.
[ This Message was edited by: Vit on 2010-12-13 18:28 ]


Posted by Vit

On 2010-12-11 10:09:08, false_morel wrote:







More noise does not mean better quality. These are not my words... Are Damianīs.

Look what I was saying about the N8: Its shot has almost no chroma noise. Thatīs not realistic.

The N8 leaves the luminescent noise intact, but simply kills the chroma noise. Try to take a high ISO shot from an object colored red, like a red carpet or a snooker table cover.

The N8 renders the red in high ISO shots like it was plain red, with a lot of added saturation to compensate for the chroma noise reduction.

And I do not agree that it has more detail than Satioīs shot in this case. In fact, not only I see more detail on Satioīs sample, but I also prefer SEīs approach when it comes to noise reduction. All that chroma noise helps to mantain the saturation and the colour nuances at higher ISO levels.
[ This Message was edited by: Vit on 2010-12-13 18:43 ]


Posted by Vit
Besides that:

The N8 preview is far from accurate. You cannot guide yourself by its preview. The resulting picture often come out different from what you thought it would come judging by the camera preview (for low light, no flash shots) - IT SEEMS TO APPLY A KIND OF DYNAMIC RANGE OPTIMIZATION during its post-processing (see details below);

Pics look a lot warmer in its display than what they look like in a well calibrated PC display (typical of Samsungīs AMOLED screens);

Manual ISO is useless for low light shots without flash - thereīs no way to change the SS;

If you select the Night Mode, the SS decreases to 1/8s, but if you choose ISO 100, than it goes up to 1/15s. If you then try to change the EV up, it gets darker! (maybe a bug). If you change it down, it gets brighter! LOL.

The flash is way too cold in most cases. Sometimes it increases the ISO to 800, resulting in poor quality and overexposed pics (in other words, it increases the ISO without the need to);

I donīt know about your countries, but at least here in Brazil those street gas lamps look like orange, and not yellow like the N8 tends to color them. Thatīs why I guess that the Satioīs auto White Balance is more accurate than N8īs. If you select the Sunny for night pics (thatīs right, selecting sunny as a solution) then it gets way too orange.

But guess what! If you decrease the EV compensation to, letīs say, -1,5 (and the ISO get lowerd as well), then those gas lamps get orange, the correct way! Try it yourself. Unfortunately, then we donīt have suffiently slower SS to play with)...

Itīs horrible having to enter the photo gallery everytime juts to be able to zoom in a pic.

The N8 is also applying some kind of Dynamic Range optimization in order to compensate for the lack of slower SS. See the example below. The ambient light was extremely dimmed:

ISO 559, SS 1/8s:



First of all, the chroma noise distribution here is just awful. It has a stripe pattern throughout the frame.

Now, two Satio shots. Evenly distributed noise, more realistic depicted enviroment. The ambient light was rendering the room more or less that dark. I could barely distinguish object colors. It was all monotonic, and not like the way the N8 depicted it. With Satio we can see the light halo from the lamp in a much better way that in the N8 shot.

The N8 has a robotic post-processing algorith for indoor, flash-free, pics.

Besides that, look how the N8 ISO 559 shot look much brighter than the Satio shot, even with lower ISO speed (same SS). Itīs clearly applying a Dynamic Range Compensation.

Further, Satioīs shots have even correctly depicted the ruler teeth (even the ISO 800 shot), whereas the N8 couldnīt, despite itīs bigger sensor and resolved resolution (it does have a smaller focal lenght, but it gets more or less compensated by the greater resolution of its lens), and being used at a lower ISO speed. Thatīs too weird, donīt you think?

ISO 640, SS 1/8s:



ISO 800, SS 1/8s:



If the Satio had great optics, then it would have been a f*ckin awesome cameraphone. One to be remembered for a long time. Even thought, I reckon itīs still a great contender. I prefer shooting with a Satio when I am indoors than shooting with the N8.
[ This Message was edited by: Vit on 2010-12-13 20:28 ]


Posted by false_morel

On 2010-12-13 19:11:06, Vit wrote:
Yeah, they were taken in different times. But that doesnīt mean a thing here. Theyīve got exactly the same exposure:

1s * ISO 100 = 100 ISO * s

1/5s * ISO 500 = 100 ISO * s.

Perfectly comparable shots. The angle difference is merely an artistic one. It doesnīt interfere with the technical comparison.

Anyway, some things donīt change, like the street gas lamps. They are exactly the same.


First of all, regarding that exposure equivalence, what does it bring if the two shots have same exposure values but totally different results?!

For instacnce, take this exampe:


Consider that each one coming from different camera. How could you compare the cameras by those shots?!
Completely different results. Same with huge ISO difference..

Cameras are compared at a given scene by shooting at the same exposure factors. That is, same ISO, same aperture, and same SS.

The issue with Satio-N8 nightshots, we have two different aproaches. We aren't comparing the quality here. Because it's out of question that the N8 is of higher quality.
However, due to limited manual control settings, we are bound with two automatic approaches.

As to the timing, angle, and position, how do those factors not play any role?!
You may think relying on bare eyes that those are two same conditions. However, even the some humidity and temperature changes could affect the end result! And of course the angle and range shot from!!

As to nightshots, yes, the N8 tends to overexpose teh scenes!
And at some specific conditions gets a much f*cked up white balance.. (The only flaw I found in N8 so far).

On the other hand, despite the 1 sec SS, the Satio does underexpose some scenes at times. Other than that, it suffers with both noise and loss of detail the darker the scene is. Not to mention, that at extreme conditions the whole color rendering gets all f*cked up..

All one has to do with some N8 shots is to lower the EV a bit..
Anyway, I've shot many scenes as I went hiking last night after midnight.. To be posted soon.

The N8 simply kills the chroma noise, so all its high-ISO shots lack saturation. Tha Satio is better in this regard, IMO.


Killing the chroma noise is all healthy! Killing the limunance noise isn't.

Anyway, that is not a lack of saturation. The contrary, over-saturation due to over-exposure. You got it the other way around.

I am confident that Satioīs main problem is poor optics. Its lacks resolution and itīs also prone to both flare and chromatic fringing. But I prefer Sonyīs approach when it comes to noise reduction. You can always diminish the noise levels with Photoshop or similar programs.


Very wrong! Satio's aggressive noise algorithm leaves much less to nothing for any program to handle those noises. Already the details are washed out to big extent!

Satio's noise reduction is more user-friendly.. As amateurs and users not into photography wont be in need to use any post-processing.
However, on the N8, even if the noise left as it is, it's more than acceptable.

Itīs weird to think that Damian Dinning has said that his team prefer to render N8īs pics good for post-processing.


This is called the profi approach.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

More noise does not mean better quality. These are not my words... Are Damianīs.


You probably meant: "Less noise does not mean better quality"..

And yes Damian is more than right on this.
And this applies directly to the Satio. In good lighted scenes, it produces less noise than the N8, however, horrible detail and other compromised stuff..

Look what I was saying about the N8: Its shot has almost no chroma noise. Thatīs not realistic.


I really fail to understand this claim of yours!
How could chromatic noise add any good effects?!
As I said, some prefer to have some luminance noise effects.. But chromatic noise is always unnatural and ugly.

The N8 leaves the luminescent noise intact, but simply kills the chroma noise. Try to take a high ISO shot from an object colored red, like a red carpet or a snooker table cover.

The N8 renders the red in high ISO shots like it was plain red, with a lot of added saturation to compensate for the chroma noise reduction.


In the earlier post you said the N8 lacks color saturation. Why is it now adding for the same for some compensation?!

Anyway, shooting anything at high ISO would over-saturate it and add some artificial vivid colors..

And I do not agree that it has more detail than Satioīs shot in this case. In fact, not only I see more detail on Satioīs sample, but I also prefer SEīs approach when it comes to noise reduction. All that chroma noise helps to mantain the saturation and the colour nuances at higher ISO levels


That Satio shot was simply horibble.
N8 produced less noise and more detail. LESS NOISE AND MORE DETAIL.
Other than that, the Satio shot doesn't even resemble that granite shelf in my room!
Didn't even come close. Turned all orange and extremely noisy with loss of details!

That was a huge win for the N8.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As to your last post,

I agree about the N8 live view and AMOLED postview..

About the camera intrerface, Nokia promised the N8 is receiving a new one with next major upgrade..

About the flash, I disagree. That is not cold.
Check the indoors pic of the bank and dumbles above.
The Satio came up with some non-existing coloring on the ground and other wrongly presented bright colored areas in that photo.
The N8 produced an extremely realistic photo on other hand. And yet again, this time with less noise and more detail.

Last but not least, as to the Satio-N8 low light comparison you posted,

- Those chromatic stripes are called banding noise and are caused by aggressive algorithm to brighten the scene up at post-processing.
- Satio almost produced a white/black photo and you prefer this approach to the N8's?!!
- I would take that N8 photo over any of those two Satio's any day. Even with the price of that banding noise and excessive noise.
- If you want a darker or a less noisy image, just play with the EV a bit before shooting and you'd end up with the Satio's approach yet better result. No big deal.
[ This Message was edited by: false_morel on 2010-12-14 10:49 ]


Posted by Vit

On 2010-12-14 11:47:44, false_morel wrote:

On 2010-12-13 19:11:06, Vit wrote:
Yeah, they were taken in different times. But that doesnīt mean a thing here. Theyīve got exactly the same exposure:

1s * ISO 100 = 100 ISO * s

1/5s * ISO 500 = 100 ISO * s.

Perfectly comparable shots. The angle difference is merely an artistic one. It doesnīt interfere with the technical comparison.

Anyway, some things donīt change, like the street gas lamps. They are exactly the same.


First of all, regarding that exposure equivalence, what does it bring if the two shots have same exposure values but totally different results?!

For instacnce, take this exampe:


Consider that each one coming from different camera. How could you compare the cameras by those shots?!
Completely different results. Same with huge ISO difference..



Man, youīve taken an example with moving subjects. Mine has none. Is it that difficult to spot?

Besides that, in order to freeze the water like that, we would need variable aperture. We would need a very small aperture in order to get slower SS without over-exposing daylight shots.


Cameras are compared at a given scene by shooting at the same exposure factors. That is, same ISO, same aperture, and same SS.


I wish we could compare the N8 and the Satio both at ISO 100 and 1s of SS. TOO BAD WE CANīT. So my intention was to compare the best that both can deliver, in terms of equivalent exposures. Is it that difficult to spot?


The issue with Satio-N8 nightshots, we have two different aproaches. We aren't comparing the quality here. Because it's out of question that the N8 is of higher quality.
However, due to limited manual control settings, we are bound with two automatic approaches.

As to the timing, angle, and position, how do those factors not play any role?!
You may think relying on bare eyes that those are two same conditions. However, even the some humidity and temperature changes could affect the end result! And of course the angle and range shot from!!


LOL!!!!!!!!!!! Humidity and temperature would interfere with those shots?! Sorry, man, now youīre starting to become a true comedian.

It is clear that it was night time. It was a clearly dry weather. We donīt even have snow in Brazil. For the provided SS, aperture and ISO, the sky would be pitch black. So for the same equivalent exposure, the light would come purely from those gas lamps. I assure you that they look exactly the same during the whole year here. LOL!


As to nightshots, yes, the N8 tends to overexpose teh scenes!


Have you seen my comparison shots? Itīs not a matter of overexposing the scene. Is some kind of correction.

I will not explain it over again.


And at some specific conditions gets a much f*cked up white balance.. (The only flaw I found in N8 so far).

On the other hand, despite the 1 sec SS, the Satio does underexpose some scenes at times. Other than that, it suffers with both noise and loss of detail the darker the scene is. Not to mention, that at extreme conditions the whole color rendering gets all f*cked up..


I would say that from the N8...


All one has to do with some N8 shots is to lower the EV a bit..
Anyway, I've shot many scenes as I went hiking last night after midnight.. To be posted soon.


I will post some comparison shots soon, too. From scenes with the same humidity and temperature. LOL!


The N8 simply kills the chroma noise, so all its high-ISO shots lack saturation. Tha Satio is better in this regard, IMO.


Killing the chroma noise is all healthy! Killing the limunance noise isn't.


LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Have you ever tried to process a reflex camera RAW pic? I suggest you to use Topaz plugin for Photoshop. Go there. Kill all the chroma noise and see what you get. Lack of contrast, lack of color saturation, big loss of tonal range.

Youīre just spreading what you have read somewhere.


Anyway, that is not a lack of saturation. The contrary, over-saturation due to over-exposure. You got it the other way around.


What?! LOL...

Naturally, over-saturation come from UNDER-exposure. What the N8 does is to apply a saturation gain filter for higher-ISO shots in order to compensate for the aggressive chroma noise reduction.


I am confident that Satioīs main problem is poor optics. Its lacks resolution and itīs also prone to both flare and chromatic fringing. But I prefer Sonyīs approach when it comes to noise reduction. You can always diminish the noise levels with Photoshop or similar programs.


Very wrong! Satio's aggressive noise algorithm leaves much less to nothing for any program to handle those noises. Already the details are washed out to big extent!


Are you sure weīre talking about the same thing? Leave nothing for any program? I thought it was the contrary. No detail? I guess you havenīt paid much attention to my pics. Satioīs shots got it all. Chroma and Luminescent Noise. Itīs all there. I can reduce them perfectly on Photoshop without a great loss of detail.

The N8 is the one that doesnīt leave nothing to be done.

Besides, itīs very easy to prove I am right regarding Satioīs resolved resolution. If you refer to loss of resolution due to noise algorithm, then it suffices to look at base ISO pics, like ISO 80 for the Satio and ISO 100 for the N8.

You will see a clear resolved resolution advantage for the N8 at the center of the frame, and at such ISO speeds this difference is clearly not due to noise reduction. Itīs the lens.

Thatīs the difference that exists between good and bad lenses. And thatīs normal. It happens with the Canon 550D, for instance. The kit lens do not resolve the sensorīs 18Mpixels.


Satio's noise reduction is more user-friendly.. As amateurs and users not into photography wont be in need to use any post-processing.

However, on the N8, even if the noise left as it is, it's more than acceptable.


And you say that I get things the other way round... LOL.


Itīs weird to think that Damian Dinning has said that his team prefer to render N8īs pics good for post-processing.


This is called the profi approach.


Yeah, if only that was true.


More noise does not mean better quality. These are not my words... Are Damianīs.


You probably meant: "Less noise does not mean better quality"..

And yes Damian is more than right on this.
And this applies directly to the Satio. In good lighted scenes, it produces less noise than the N8, however, horrible detail and other compromised stuff..


Yes, I meant LESS.

Satio undoubtedly produces more noise than the N8. Iīve never said the contrary. That was my whole point here. I guess you are the only one that doesnīt get it.


Look what I was saying about the N8: Its shot has almost no chroma noise. Thatīs not realistic.


I really fail to understand this claim of yours!
How could chromatic noise add any good effects?!
As I said, some prefer to have some luminance noise effects.. But chromatic noise is always unnatural and ugly.


Itīs always better to maintain some level of chromatic noise than taking it off completely.

You shall reduce some chroma noise. Iīve never asked for the whole bunch. I only say that I prefer to reduce it manually later and not lose color accuracy than having none and those artificial looking pictures like the N8 outputs.

Besides that, my claims are not only regarding the noise reduction algorithm. The N8 has a highly artificial post-processing algorith as well.


The N8 leaves the luminescent noise intact, but simply kills the chroma noise. Try to take a high ISO shot from an object colored red, like a red carpet or a snooker table cover.

The N8 renders the red in high ISO shots like it was plain red, with a lot of added saturation to compensate for the chroma noise reduction.


In the earlier post you said the N8 lacks color saturation. Why is it now adding for the same for some compensation?!


If you take a shot from some coloured object youīll see that it adds saturation artificially. That was what Iīve written.


Anyway, shooting anything at high ISO would over-saturate it and add some artificial vivid colors..


Sorry, man. Youīre wrong here.

Naturally, RAW pictures (see I am talking about un-processed images) at higher ISO speeds lack both Dynamic Range, Resolution and Colour Saturation when compared to lower ISO speeds. The thing that prevents those levels from becoming oven worse is the actual noise. There is no secret. The more you kill noise, be it chroma or luminescent noise, the more of those 3 elements you will lose.

If a High ISO JPEG picture has more saturation and more vivid colors compared to a Low ISO JPEG pic, than itīs clearly due to the post-processing algorithm. And the added saturation will never be as natural as that from the un-processed image.

Itīs simple like that.


And I do not agree that it has more detail than Satioīs shot in this case. In fact, not only I see more detail on Satioīs sample, but I also prefer SEīs approach when it comes to noise reduction. All that chroma noise helps to mantain the saturation and the colour nuances at higher ISO levels


That Satio shot was simply horibble.
N8 produced less noise and more detail. LESS NOISE AND MORE DETAIL.
Other than that, the Satio shot doesn't even resemble that granite shelf in my room!
Didn't even come close. Turned all orange and extremely noisy with loss of details!

That was a huge win for the N8.


Well, if you say so...

I canīt say about the colors, as I wasnīt there. Anyway, I have granite here too. Its color depens on the ambient light, too. So I cannot say nothing about it.

But detail wise I see slightly more in the Satio shot.

Please explain yourself better.


As to your last post,

I agree about the N8 live view and AMOLED postview..

About the camera intrerface, Nokia promised the N8 is receiving a new one with next major upgrade..

About the flash, I disagree. That is not cold.
Check the indoors pic of the bank and dumbles above.


I donīt need to check yours. I have mine. And I think they are way to cold. And I am not the only person to think that.


- Those chromatic stripes are called banding noise and are caused by aggressive algorithm to brighten the scene up at post-processing.


Really?! I thought it was exactly what I was trying to point out.


- Satio almost produced a white/black photo and you prefer this approach to the N8's?!!


The scene was like that. Have you read my comments regarding the ambient light? In terms of realism, the Satio depicted better the scene.

Man, you have your granite. I have my room.

Here I post the before-and-after comparison images from a pretty mild noise reduction with the Topaz Denoise v5 for that ISO 640 Satio pic:

Before:



After:



There we see a great difference in noise levels over the forniture, and a soft grain over the wall. I prefer this approach.

Now, using the deband tool of the same Topaz Denois v5 for that N8 shot:

Before:



After:



It got a little better, but we still se traces of band noise there.


- I would take that N8 photo over any of those two Satio's any day. Even with the price of that banding noise and excessive noise.


Good for you then!


- If you want a darker or a less noisy image, just play with the EV a bit before shooting and you'd end up with the Satio's approach yet better result. No big deal.
[ This Message was edited by: false_morel on 2010-12-14 10:49 ]



Itīs not only about noise. The N8īs approach also has to do with its artificial post-processing algorithm.

Itīs not natural. Look at the following shot. I have the EV lowered to the more reasonable value. Look how bad it looks:



And that is ISO 434.

The N8 post-processing algorith is just alfuw for indoors. Thatīs my opinion. You may have yours. And it may be different from mine.

What I donīt like is:

Huge win for Balboa!! Less muscle and badder testicles!

You felt comfy at commenting my shots, but you do not feel this way when I comment about your granite.
[ This Message was edited by: Vit on 2010-12-14 14:59 ]


Posted by false_morel

On 2010-12-14 13:55:19, Vit wrote:
I wish we could compare the N8 and the Satio both at ISO 100 and 1s of SS. TOO BAD WE CANīT. So my intention was to compare the best that both can deliver, in terms of equivalent exposures. Is it that difficult to spot?


You didn't get my point.
You don't have to compare them at equivalent exposures! Exposure equations bring nothing to any comparison.

Because as I said, same as with aperture/SS combinations, shooting at 1 sec-1000 ISO exposure doesn't give the same result as 10 sec-100 ISO!

Too completely different results. Uncomparable.

However, as we know, with the N8-Satio case, comparing them at nighshots with same numbers isn't feasible. So we compare the approaches rather than the quality.

You are comparing those two shots qualitatively, in the sense of comparing color rendering, saturation, and other stuff that can't be directly compared at different ISO and shutter speeds!

To end this debate about nightshot photography:

At outdoors nightshots, the N8 tends to overexpose. That's it. No saturation nor any other flaw.
The results could be more appealing to the unexperienced eye. However, for someone keen into photography, those pics turn out artificial or unrealistic as they represent a tuned and enhanced version of the relative scene.
In order to get teh N8 to colect the right exposure, lowering the EV meter a bit, would do it.

As to the aggressive brightening post-processing algorithm, it only gets implemented in extreme low ligh conditions not normal nightshots. A must I have to add!

As in indoors low light photography without flash, the N8 works by that aggressive post-processing algorithm to lighten up the scene and bring it to a condition as if it were well lit by some light source.

Again, unrealistic but could give more appealing results.. Results the profis usually try to get after manual post-processing..
However, it would have been much nicer has the N8 took the same approach for daylight scenes and left the scenes as natural as it could.
Then, it's up for the user to tune the way he likes.
Anyway, lowering the EV would also do the trick, but here one has to hit the extremes by lowering it by more than one stop.


Now, as to the Satio.
Outdoors nightshots get underexposed half of the times. Not to mention the blurry risk.
Correcting the exposure would result in f*cked up color rendering, excessive noise, and huge loss of detail all at the same time. Given the camera's hardware capablities, this is all normal, and SE rather did a great job pulling the max out of the Satio in this case.

Other than that, at extreme low light situations, the Satio can't handle those scenes.
And not to mention, that unless one has superb steady hands, or hold the Satio fixed at some stand, the photos will suffer blurriness..

Indoors flash or no flash, N8 delivers realistic photos. Where the Satio artificially colors the scenes.

This all change at extreme low-light shots, whereas Satio goes for a more realistic approach than the N8. But one really needs to hold the Satio fixed for those shots. Other than that, there is always an underexposure..
You could tell me that you prefer Satio's underexposure over the N8's overexposure. Well, it a matter of taste then!

But I really see those Satio's shots pointless with all that lack of exposure at extreme conditions.

You know, we're talking about cameraphones at end. With much limitations.
These devices aren't meant to be used at those extreme situations.
But if need to, I prefer the N8's extreme approach as one still ends up with some useful shots not black/white ones.
It's very obvious that this approach is all intended by Nokia.
You can't expect from an average user to accept those Satio pics. Any causal user will go with the N8 shots.

Still, you could always end up with similar or better shots to those of Satio if you play with the settings a bit.

LOL!!!!!!!!!!! Humidity and temperature would interfere with those shots?! Sorry, man, now youīre starting to become a true comedian.

It is clear that it was night time. It was a clearly dry weather. We donīt even have snow in Brazil. For the provided SS, aperture and ISO, the sky would be pitch black. So for the same equivalent exposure, the light would come purely from those gas lamps. I assure you that they look exactly the same during the whole year here. LOL!


First of all, hold yourself a little bit here.. I was all respectful so far..

And I definitely didn't mean that those two pictures were shot at considerably different humidity and temperatures!

I wanted to give you examples as why photos shot at completely different timings can't be held reliable.

You can't just go out, shoot a scene. Then a month or two later, or even more, go out with another camera, shoot the same scene at different angle and at slightly different position, and use those photos for comparison.

I really don't get it.
Couldn't you just took the Satio out with you at that night and shot at same conditions?
In case you've sold the Satio by then, then I'm sorry, but you can't use those photos as a reliable reference.


The N8 simply kills the chroma noise, so all its high-ISO shots lack saturation. Tha Satio is better in this regard, IMO


The issue here you're refering to killing the chroma noise as really killing it! Removing it all!
It's not the case. You can't expect from any camera manufacturer to implement such an algorithm.

The N8 uses an aggressive chromatic noise reduction. But that's what all manufacturers do.
Maybe you're a Canon user, as they're known to implement the softest chromatic noise reduction in their DSLRs..

However, you're pushing the issue here out of proportions. We're comparing cameraphones for heaven's sake.
You're going too far by stating things like chromatic noise reduction compenation...

Other than that, that shot you took with the N8 with banding noise is all about chroma noise.
Those bands are chromatic disorder not luminance caused..

Anyway, one doesn't have to go much into details here. The N8 at those extremes conditions tend to implement some aggressive post-processing to achieve some useful results. I don't see any problem with that even regarding the price of that approach.. If you think it overdid it, you could play with the setting a bit.

Are you sure weīre talking about the same thing? Leave nothing for any program? I thought it was the contrary. No detail? I guess you havenīt paid much attention to my pics. Satioīs shots got it all. Chroma and Luminescent Noise. Itīs all there. I can reduce them perfectly on Photoshop without a great loss of detail.

The N8 is the one that doesnīt leave nothing to be done.


You can't reduce any noise perfectly on even the best DSLR and yet you claim you can do that with the Satio?!

Dude, noise is a matter of taste to begin with.
Secondly, I agree the N8's banding noise is really disturbing, but could be tolerated for the sake of the end result.

At the end, as I hinted, even the best high-end compact cameras can't handle extreme low-light shots well, or even nightshots. You are taking the N8 and the Satio to levels they aren't supposed to handle as casual cameras!

Just go and take a look at Davidsic nightshots in the photos thread, and I dare you to produce similar high-quality photos with the Satio!!

Also, maybe as a good reference if you're willing to go further in this extreme low-light night photography, why don't you use your Canon as a reference?

Besides, itīs very easy to prove I am right regarding Satioīs resolved resolution. If you refer to loss of resolution due to noise algorithm, then it suffices to look at base ISO pics, like ISO 80 for the Satio and ISO 100 for the N8.

You will see a clear resolved resolution advantage for the N8 at the center of the frame, and at such ISO speeds this difference is clearly not due to noise reduction. Itīs the lens.

Thatīs the difference that exists between good and bad lenses. And thatīs normal. It happens with the Canon 550D, for instance. The kit lens do not resolve the sensorīs 18Mpixels.


I'm not arguing about this point.
The N8 has a higher-quality sensor, larger as well, and higher quality optics. That's why quality-wise there is no room for any comparison.
Just the appoaches (including post-processing) could be compared.


Satio's noise reduction is more user-friendly.. As amateurs and users not into photography wont be in need to use any post-processing.

However, on the N8, even if the noise left as it is, it's more than acceptable.


And you say that I get things the other way round... LOL.


You seem you got me wrong on this point again.
The Satio implements an aggressive noise reduction algorithm. Period.
This could be user-friendly, as casual users don't even bother with post-processing and trying to cut down the noise effects..
But as to the N8, with higher noise levels, even if kept like that, it's very accepable. No need for any further reduction that is.

Now, you went too far by analyzing chromatic and luminance noises on camerphones, and claimed that the N8 uses an aggressive chromatic noise reduction, and somehow related the dynamic range, Satio's lower quality optics into the equation.

Read further with the next comment:

Satio undoubtedly produces more noise than the N8. Iīve never said the contrary. That was my whole point here. I guess you are the only one that doesnīt get it.


That is at extremem light conditions only. At any normal conditions, including the normal nightshots, the N8 leave more noise and better detail than the Satio.
At extreme conditions, the N8 still produces better detail but less noise.

It's the Satio's noise algorithm that is not consistent here.

I canīt say about the colors, as I wasnīt there. Anyway, I have granite here too. Its color depens on the ambient light, too. So I cannot say nothing about it.

But detail wise I see slightly more in the Satio shot.

Please explain yourself better.


The N8's photo turned out more blurry. I agree. You could define that as less detail.
But by leaving the sharpness out, as both photos turned out blurry since I didn't hold them firm enough, the excessive noise on the Satio killed much detail of the granite different colored stripes..

Anyway, regarding sharpness, the only domain the Satio outdoes the N8 is the close-up.
I have to admit it. Clear advantage for the Satio in this department.
Normal close-up under normal lighting.. Extreme low lighting it turns in N8 advantage.. But who really shoots close-ups in extreme low conditions anyway... By extreme low light condition, I mean without using the flash as well.
[ This Message was edited by: false_morel on 2010-12-14 23:09 ]


Posted by Vit
I am tired of this... Many contradictory statements from you. Iīll drop them and Iīll try to be objective and conclusive about my thoughts. If you do not agree, I do not really care about it.

First of all, from those first two pics of mine that you posted here, I already explained myself several times. No need to do that again. For information about this, refer to my last post.

My thoughts about the N8:

NIGHT SHOTS WITHOUT FLASH:

=> EV set to "0 or +x": Agressive post-processing with Digital Exposure Compensation and Chromatic Noise Reduction reduces both tonal range and contrast levels. That leads to the need to apply artifitial colour saturation. Results look pale, with monotonic tonal range. The great resolution provided by its lens helps to compensate for the detail loss due to this post-processing algorith.

Common issues:

- Live preview far from accurate;
- MANUAL ISO is pointless for this kind of shot - EV value change doesnīt affect the SS;
- Genarally pale and over-exposed shots;
- Strange noise reduction artifacts whithin dark areas of the picture, starting to appear right down at ISO 300;
- White Balance not accurate;
- Orange street gas lamps look like yellow;
- Vivid colors get artifitial saturation that renders colors monotonic.

=> EV set to "-x": The ISO gets lowered, and so does the Shutter Speed. More accurate results only for the lower EV positions. Limited usage.

Common issues:

- MANUAL ISO is pointless for this kind of shot - EV value change doesnīt affect the SS;
- Sudden change of behaviour of the post-processing algorithm at lower EV postions - from agressive to soft;
- Live View not accurate for near EV 0 positions;
- Under-exposed pics;

NIGHT SHOTS WITH FLASH:

=> Cold colors. The camera selects higher ISO speeds (around 800) without the need to.

Common issues:

- Sudden loss of quality for objects about 1.5-2 meters away from the camera.
- Pale skin tones;
- Over-exposed pics.

My thoughts about the Satio:

NIGHT SHOTS WITHOUT FLASH:

=> Accurate Metering and White Balance. Perfect Live Preview and Display Color Setup. What you see is what you get. Generally thereīs no need to change EV. Mature post-processing. Mild noise reduction algorith (The Satio DOES NOT apply an agressive noise reduction - in fact, thatīs quite the opposite). Perfect for post-processing. Availability of slower SS of up to 1s. Changing the EV position doesnīt affect how agressive the post-processing becomes.

Common issues:

- Eventual misfocused pics, as it doesnīt fire the LED for focusing objects without the flash;

NIGHT SHOTS WITH FLASH:

=> More appealing colors. Warm and natural skin tones.

Common issues:

- Ocasional white balance issues when shooting under Incandescent Light.
[ This Message was edited by: Vit on 2010-12-15 01:22 ]


Posted by Vit
Just go and take a look at Davidsic nightshots in the photos thread, and I dare you to produce similar high-quality photos with the Satio!!


At your wish:














[ This Message was edited by: Vit on 2010-12-15 02:01 ]


Posted by false_morel
My final nightshot photos in this thread..
I spent too much time on this topic while these two cameras are meant for casual use.. Last come the nightshots..
However, I'm lacking time to go outside shooting mid-day.. Besides, we haven't seen the sun here for over three weeks!!
Even at night, it's been for few days now an orange sky! Imagine that. Orange. Well, it's not the first time this happens, but really bad timing for my comparison.

Anyway, I'll post my final comments on nightshots then just post the photos:

N8 no flash:
At well lit scenes, it performs just right. Beats the Satio in every aspect. Color rendering, noise, and detail.
In low-light scenes, it suffers white balance problems. Sometimes even at some manual setting, it's is not fixable!

By well lit, I mean either a good lit room, or enough lit street, building, or parking place for instance..
By low-light I mean extreme conditions. Wide and far nightshots.. In a forrest under a moon light, dim room, etc..

It's not a consistent overall performance. And this is due to the post-processing algorithm and the hard to tackle approach by Nokia, that is fast SSs and high ISO settings..

So somehow, the N8 functions at two different modes in nightshots. Well lit scenes, and low-lit ones. Weird algorithm to say the least. But teh way I see it, has its pros and cons.
Pros are some appealing results at times, and cons are white balance problems.

But for any casual scene, the N8 does just great.

Satio no flash:
Very consistent performance. However, with the 1 sec SS it gets really hard to handle the Satio. One either needs some really steady hands or a tripod-like stand..

Performance is good, but suffers underexposure at half the times. And playing with the setting isn't a good idea by the Satio.
Always suffers bad detail handling as well.

And I was wrong about the noise handling.. The fact that the N8 starts to produce less noise by extreme conditions, is because of N8's inconsistency, and different performance at extreme condtions.. While the Satio just goes down at constant rate in performance with extreme conditions.
However, because the Satio already uses some aggressive noise reduction, at extreme conditions where the noise level go high, the detail is all f*cked up!

The best thing about the Satio in nighshots, it's automatic settings and post-processing are great and consistent.


N8 with flash:

Handles noise and detail pretty well. Specially given that it has a smaller Xenon module!
Produce accurate color rendering.
However lacks flash uniformity in some photos. That is it centers the flash in the middle and it's easy to notice that the scene isn't lit equally all over!

As to night portraits, which is matters the most for me, and to many others to be honest, much more than night photography and other camera uses... In portrait, I'm very pleased with the N8!
Very professional flash performance.
No over-exposure whatsoever.. The color tones are very accurate.. And concentrates on the faces/bodies and discard the background in the lighting process.

I'm sorry I can't post any of the photos.. Maybe some later in the photos thread..

Satio with flash:

Decent performance. However, it produces those colorful photos which could be all appealing and warm felt by the eyes, but not realistic.
I still remember, by shooting those dumbles on the ground by the Satio, I had to look again at the ground wishing somehow I'll be seing th same ground in the photo. Unfortunately it wans't that way.

Details inferior to N8, and noise differs from scene to scene! Depends on how the N8 produces the noise. Sometimes it produces better noise and better detail, other times better details only..

Night portraits are all good.
But in comparison to the N8, it over-exposes a bit!
One could easily notice it on the faces.. In general not bad at all, but inferior to the N8.

And as this really matters to me, I'm glad to have a good replacement to the Satio in this department..


The photos (Satio then N8):





Too bad I shot a blurry photo on the Satio! But was in a hurry and couldn't shoot again. But it's clear where the Satio was going anyway..
Here's comes the disadvantage of the slow SSs.. One really need to pay attention and hold the Satio firm, which is not easy to do with bare hands.

----------------------------------





White balace problem with the N8. I admit, Satio wins here. Vit, do you feel better?

----------------------------------





----------------------------------





----------------------------------





No flash here..
Just a medium range nightshot..
But also turned up blurry on the Satio!
Anyway, one could still compare the color rendering and exposure in those photos..

----------------------------------





Here one could notice the effect of the larger Xenon on the Satio.
However, go full resolution with the Satio's photo, and notice the color distortion on the white snow!
Is that natural or add any good or special effect? Heck no.

Also, imagine yourself being there instead. Do you really think the scene would seem that colorful as the Satio depicted it to be?

----------------------------------





Again a blurry photo by the Satio. My hands were freezing and couldn't hold them steady.
Anyway, even on the N8 one could notice blurrinnes in the trees. I believe it's because of auto-focusing rather than hand shake. The buildings behind are very well in focus.. That's why.
[ This Message was edited by: false_morel on 2010-12-15 17:28 ]


Posted by false_morel
@ Vit

I have to give it to you regarding the first photo.. Pretty decent photo. But you did use some manual post-processing..
And you definitely left the Satio fixed on some stand for that one or two seconds!!

As to other photos, good ones, but as casual photos (no extreme conditions) the photos coming from the N8 are more appealing..

And then, I thought those lamps are orange?
(sixth photo..)

Posted by mrjulius
halfway press and steady shot. should help you

Posted by Vit
@ false_morel:

Yeah, that last pic of mine had too much humidity... Itīs half way between yellow and orange.

Regarding my last set of pics:

Yes, the first was taken with the Satio holding still over the parapet. But have you seen the detail on the second shot? Too bad that Iīve got some light source coming from the left and then getting into the frame. As for the rest, only the last one was also taken with self timer. All others were taken hand held.

In the meantime, Iīve got some even more extreme comparison shots:

First, the N8 (ISO-1114 - 1/8s SS):

Un-processed:


Post-processed with Topaz Denoise v5 (latest version) with maximum debanding (vertical and horizontal) and maximum color noise cleaning - doesnīt look much better, though (couldnīt get rid of those yellow bubles):


Now, the Satio (ISO-2000 (!) - 1/8s SS):

Un-processed:


Post-processed with Topaz Denoise v5 (latest version) with some color cleaning, black adjust and 1/3 strengh (still had more noise to reduce - prefered to leave some, though):


My point is:

Theyīre both bad. Itīs a question of taste. One may prefer the N8 shot. I feel that they are equivalent. The N8 has more appealing colors. The Satio has better noise distribution.

NOW: One thing needs to be noted - the Satio does very well at High ISO. This shot has double the ISO level when compared to the N8 and still holds its own against the Nokia. Pretty mature post-processing. Almost none Digital Exposure Compensation. Thatīs remarkable.

I guess that both shots are not useful for more than, letīs say, VGA prints. At that resolution, one would not identify the superiority of the N8 when it comes to resolved resolution. At the same time, all those artifitial chromatic aberrations would appear greater in the N8 sample, whereas the Satioīs would have a slight grain.

The only thing to note is that I hoped that the N8 would simply and greatly outperformm the Satio. I am just disapointed by its low light performance. Damian Dinning said that they would do almost no post-processing, and thatīs NOT TRUE.
[ This Message was edited by: Vit on 2010-12-15 13:01 ]


Posted by jake20
is anyone else having issues seeing some of the photos on this page?


Posted by false_morel

On 2010-12-15 09:51:11, mrjulius wrote:
halfway press and steady shot. should help you



You think it's easy?

And I consider myself to have two firm steady hands.

Look at the bush photo for instance. I went down on my knees, put my both elbows on my legs, pressed the shutter button half way (although no focus at nightshot mode with the Satio) just to make sure I'm all steady and ready, then clicked it all and tried to stay fixed as much as I can.
Still, didn't work out!

Of course the freezing temperatures didn't help me at all. Try shooting with your hands freezing cold and you know what I mean. And for obvious reasons I couldn't wear any gloves either.

---------------------------

@ Jake

Yes, there are problems!
I'm not sure whether it's Imageshack or Easto though!
Maybe you could try later, as the links are all good. No need to change any. And on Imageshack they're all showing well.

UPDATE: Mine are all good now. Vit's photos are all f*cked up. One link is dead, others just not showing. (I think it's Esato).
[ This Message was edited by: false_morel on 2010-12-15 18:06 ]


Posted by mrjulius
with google chrome it took me 20s to load this page.

@mrfalse_more
i get your point. i know its not for just only one shot.

Posted by Vit
P.S.: Iīve provided lower res pics in order not to put a heavy load on the page. If you wanna see the originals, just ask me for them.

Hereīs another set of night comparison shots (this time Iīve used the Satio in Auto Mode, instead of Night Mode):

N8 (ISO -339-~400):

I have lowered the EV to -1,5 in order to get the gas lamps colors right. Again, thereīs not sufficient slow shutter to get the exposure right.







Satio (all @ ISO-500):

Despite the lens resolution advantage, I donīt see much advantage in having a sensor that big when it comes to noise... For low light shots, I still reckon that the Satio performs better in a greater number of occasions in terms of color accuracy, noise distribution and even in dynamic range.







Now, another comparison to show how the N8 post-processing mess up with the whole thing:

Satio:

EV lowered just a bit. ISO varies from ISO 250-320.









N8:

The Digital Exposure Compensation plays hard here, even with EV lowered to -1,5. Thereīs nothing left to do.

You also get a lot of band noise right donw at ISO 251 (!!). The thing with this kind of noise is that you notice it even when the pic is seen at lower resolutions. In these case the pic is lowered to VGA resolution, and itīs still pretty much visible, whereas the Satio manages to provide a much more mature result.

Besides that, look at the SATURATION BOOST I was talking about at the tip of those flowers. It seems that thereīs no way of getting rid of it:

ISO 250:


ISO 251:


If we lower the EV to -2.0, then it starts to get thing a little bit better, but then we donīt have enough exposure time to play with:

ISO 204:


ISO 212:


I am still holding up a bit just waiting for the promissed N8īs camera revision. If it wonīt address this extremely heavy Digital Exposure Compensation issue, then I will definitely sell my N8.

I guess that they are compensating the exposure digitally up to 60-70%, and thatīs not only for higher ISO speeds. My guess is that the trigger for that compensation is the Shutter Speed, as weīve got it right down at even ISO 200.

Thatīs a shame and it does not corroborate Damianīs statement of 'natural looking pictures'.
[ This Message was edited by: Vit on 2010-12-18 15:56 ]


Posted by false_morel
Here is an example to clarify those two modes the N8 works at in normal and extreme low-light conditions:

Both photos at automatic setting:

Extreme low-light condition (the street wasn't lit intensively)



Inaccurate color rendering due to aggressive brightening post-processing algorithm.

Meters away at the main street which was lit considerably better:



Accurate color rendering. Lacks a bit saturation. And also some detail compared to what the N8 is capable of.

-------------------------------

Here is the night scene mode:



Correct color rendering. Accurate saturation and better detail.
I didn't have the Satio with me, but in this scene it would usually under-expose and doesn't come close to the N8's performance.
In that other more extreme scene, the Satio would go for a completely other approach where the slower SS would help achieve better color rendering and saturation..

In conclusion, those two cameraphones are obviously never meant for those extreme conditions.
Specially the ones I shot in my previous night comparison.
Even the high-end cameras aren't meant for this type of photography in general.

Only DSLR would do good.. With tripods, extremely slow SSs, huge sensors, and high-quality optics..

In normal night scenes, the ones where some well lit obkects are shot at night, the N8 and Satio achieve very good results. The N8 slightly better..

Posted by false_morel
To give you an idea about the horrific weather conditoin for the past month:

Satio:


N8:


Note:
That tree at the left in N8's pic isn't pretty at all!
However, for the sake of the comparison I had to leave it there.
Usually one either zooms (as I coudn't move to the right of the scene) or just crops..

Anyway, we're having that grey sky for consecutive five weeks now. With high humdity along, and snow showers every hour or two!

Just today the sun shone for few hours. I hadn't the time to go out for a shootout however.
As of tomorrow, we're back to the usual.
There is really no point going out shooting with two cameraphones in such conditions!
So I'm just dropping this comparison..

I don't want to end up with another comparison at extreme conditions like that night shootout and end up with frozen hands and f*cked up results from both cameras..

Just the final comments on two of the top three cameraphones so far.

Camera interface and setting:
The N8's interface is just ugly and not practical. It gives more options but lacks some major ones as well.
No instant access to the photos gallery. Can't zoom in the photo directly after capturing! No focusing options available for Auto-mode!! The AF does it all by itself.

Live view is terrible on the N8! And I simply can't get it. It uses the same sensor to preview the view that it uses to capture the photos!
The display of the live preview not only misleading, but also shows some f*cked up feed suffering from all sort of stripes and noise!

Photo quality:
Really amazing. But for a Carl Zeiss optics and a high-quality huge sensor this is expected.
Daylight photos, be it landscapes or portrait are all high-quality and professional.
Nightshots are decent. At extreme condition things might get nasty though.

Macro is very good, but could have been better. The Satio is definitely better in this department for instance.
Xenon performance, despite that many are complaining, I find it excellent. Only drawback is the flash lack of uniformity in some cases.. But could live with that. Flashing is always an artifical light source at the end. Impossible to achieve accurate natural results..

So that's it. I already sold the Satio to a friend.
Handing it in on Monday..
Might get a C905 as a secondary phone, or if SE decide to produce a successor in the coming months..

So there might come another shootout round..

Posted by zide
The more I see this comparisons the more I get impressed by the tiny difference (yet a big one was expected) between Satio and N8. All that bs from Damien about N8's camera before the release and it ends up like any other camera phone: with ridiculous software faults (and this case is even worse, as it has already hardware faults reported). From what I've seen, the N8's performance at ISO 800 is quite bad, unusable.

Posted by false_morel

On 2010-12-20 05:22:41, zide wrote:
The more I see this comparisons the more I get impressed by the tiny difference (yet a big one was expected) between Satio and N8. All that bs from Damien about N8's camera before the release and it ends up like any other camera phone: with ridiculous software faults (and this case is even worse, as it has already hardware faults reported). From what I've seen, the N8's performance at ISO 800 is quite bad, unusable.



All cameras nowadays are very close in delivering the best quality possible for their category!
Go look for some high-end DSLR comparisons, high-end compact cameras comparisons, and high-end bridge cameras comparisons..
The difference in interface and features is much greater than the difference in quality!
Same applies to the cameraphone category.

Not only that, there are now some high-end compact camera going against DSLR comparison..
The latest being the Powershot G12 vs the D7000 for instance..

And to surprise you, go google S95 vs N8!
And click the Flickr link where a user compared the two cameras in landscape cloudy scene!
You'd be amazed to witness the very slight difference..
The N8 wins in certain aspects, and the S95 wins in another.

About the S95: It's latest Canon's flagship in compact cameras!
It delivers the same quality as their bridge camera flagship the G12! So go figure.

That's not to mention that with decent post-processing applications nowadawys, one could achieve huge results..

I always look forward for camera comparisons, as in this department, there is no standard benchmark to compare with..
One has always to compare against the latest best in the category.

And I believe, considering all that, the difference in quality between the Satio and the N8 is obvious and big!

The N8 is a totally different approach than the Satio. Completely different sensor approach, better optics, and completely different post-processing algorithms...

Compared to the Pixon12, where it also features a wide-engle lens, and adopts a very similar approach overall, still, the N8 comes superior..

The only drawback for the N8 is a camera cover.. As it limits its practicality..
And that it's not impressive in macros..

Other than that, there is a considerable step forward in everything else compared to the Satio.


Nokia, or any other manufacturer, in producing a cameraphone are bound to make some compromises where they would neglect some of the cameras capabilites to deliver instead some automatic camera approach to satisfy the vast majority of the occasional consumers.
If 10 million customers end up with the N8 for instance, how many of those you would think will be all excited to try out all the setting configurations possiblities, to get the maximum out of the camera in hand, for some artistic or appealing scenes, and then go straight work themselves out with post-processing to even improve those photos?!!

A max of ten thousands maybe.. Out of 10 millions.. That's definitely less than 1%!!

Nokia already took the best compromise, and actually many are still complaining about the washed out colors in landscape, or cold photos in flash performance whereas this is more the proffessional way to go..

No one could make the perfect phone to satisfy everybody! Simple.
Camera-wise, the N8 is currently at the top, with some margin as well.. And will stay this way till Nokia release their successor as all other manufacturers dropped the production of high-end cameraphones for now.. (Thanks to Android and the iPhone of course)
Phone-wise, compared to the Satio, it's in a different league! I don't know how you dared to compare them there anyway.

As to Vit's photos, they are definitely misleading!
In his last comparison, he even went for extreme EV bias on the N8 to achieve similar results of the Satio.
The Satio, despite its longer exposure times, does under-expose in night photography almost all the time!

Other than that, regarding extreme low light conditions, I already stated that those two phones aren't meant for this.
I really can't get the point Vit wants to prove here!
He's working himself out with post-processing and extreme camera settings and extreme shooting conditions for nothing.
Just post some usual nightshots and twilights a usual user would shoot, and lets compare those on both, the N8 and the Satio. That's all what it takes to compare two cameraphones in night photography.
Instead, he gave me an HDR for the Satio, and other heavily post-processd photos!

Anyway, regarding this thread, I failed to deliver the comparison I was heading to, due to weather condition and lack of time, specially the scenes where the cameraphones are meant for, but the N8 is a clear and a big winner overall for me.

Posted by Vit

On 2010-12-20 14:08:06, false_morel wrote:

On 2010-12-20 05:22:41, zide wrote:
The more I see this comparisons the more I get impressed by the tiny difference (yet a big one was expected) between Satio and N8. All that bs from Damien about N8's camera before the release and it ends up like any other camera phone: with ridiculous software faults (and this case is even worse, as it has already hardware faults reported). From what I've seen, the N8's performance at ISO 800 is quite bad, unusable.



As to Vit's photos, they are definitely misleading!
In his last comparison, he even went for extreme EV bias on the N8 to achieve similar results of the Satio.
The Satio, despite its longer exposure times, does under-expose in night photography almost all the time!


My last post contains two sets of comparison pics. which are you refering to? I will assume it regards the first one, am I right?

To begin with, Iīve noted that those were not full quality shots. In order to make justice to this comparison, here youīve got full res pics:

Satio @ ISO-500 and 1/8s of SS:



N8 @ ISO-339 and 1/8s of SS (plus clear Digital Exposure Compensation):


Satio @ ISO-500 and 1/8s of SS:


N8 @ ISO-393 and 1/8s of SS:


Satio @ ISO-500 and 1/8s of SS:


N8 @ ISO-364 and 1/8s of SS:


First youīve complained about me when the Satio with Night Mode to the N8 with Auto Mode. Completely different ISO, Shutter Speed, bla-bla-bla...

Now that Iīve used the Satio in fully Auto Mode you are still complaining about a supposedly biased view. I donīt know if you have taken note, but the Satio was @ ISO-500, and the N8 was at ISO-339, 364, 393.

Man, if I am biased, then you may call me the most stupid person on earth. How could I take a better HW, with both a bigger sensor and a superior lens, use it at a slower ISO speed and still think I would get a better result with an inferior HW at a faster ISO speed? I must be pretty stupid.

Oh, that was funny!

Here Iīve lowered the EV compensation not to match Satioīs result.

Iīve done that to get the exposure and the colors right, based on what I was seeing on its live preview. I also cannot stand the yellowish treatment it gives to those street gas lamps.

The N8 should not only be better. It should completely smash the Satio. Is that what we see? My point is the same as Zydeīs point. I see not much of a difference between these two.

Anyway, you also donīt seem to be keen on commenting the cases in which the N8 falls miserably, like the flower comparison shots.

About these shots youīve talked about, I will take another set of pics with the Satio set to a higher EV level and the N8 set to EV=0. You could have asked me about that. No need to call me biased.

By the way, hereīs a good sample to discuss. Quite noisy for an ISO-170 shot, donīt you think?



P.S.: Most of your low-light shots are all shaky and blurry, pal. For the sake of the primary intention of this thread I reckon they are completely useless.
[ This Message was edited by: Vit on 2010-12-20 23:05 ]


Posted by Vit

Other than that, regarding extreme low light conditions, I already stated that those two phones aren't meant for this.
I really can't get the point Vit wants to prove here!
He's working himself out with post-processing and extreme camera settings and extreme shooting conditions for nothing.
Just post some usual nightshots and twilights a usual user would shoot, and lets compare those on both, the N8 and the Satio. That's all what it takes to compare two cameraphones in night photography.
Instead, he gave me an HDR for the Satio, and other heavily post-processd photos!


WTF!?!?! You are indeed a crazy little guy...

Iīve mentioned explicity where Iīve uploaded post-processed pictures, and it was not only for the Satio.

BESIDES IT, THE POST-PROCESSING WAS ONLY TO DISMISS YOUR CARELESS STATEMENT THAT THE SATIO 'LEAVES NOTHING TO BE DONE WHEN IT COMES TO NOISE'. IT WAS ONLY TO PROVE YOU WRONG, GENTLEMAN. You donīt get things quickly, I suppose. Not even the most explicit argument of them all.

In fact, the heaviest post-process Iīve done was with the N8īs shot. You can conduct the same tests with similar conditions if you want it to.

Now, as for the most stupid statement ever written here @ the esato forum:

Where have I mentioned Iīve used HDR for the Satio?!??!

Be my guest and come to my city and Iīll take you to the same places Iīve been where Iīve taken those shots. You can take them by yourself.

Oh, I forgot. Your hand is way too shaky... They would all come out blurry or out of focus.

Anyway, thanks for all the quality shots youīve taken, pal!
[ This Message was edited by: Vit on 2010-12-20 23:03 ]


Posted by false_morel

On 2010-12-20 21:02:07, Vit wrote:

P.S.: Most of your low-light shots are all shaky and blurry, pal. For the sake of the primary intention of this thread I reckon they are completely useless.


I described that comparison of mine as f*cked up myslef..
I know the photos turned out just terrible!!

Almost all photos on the Satio suffered blurrines. I had one bad flare photo with the N8 (bush photo), another terrible one at all aspects as the N8 was affected by a close large light source, and since I was in a hike in a forrest-like park, almost all the photos I took were about some extreme low-light scenes and both cameras suffered to deliver any good result.

However, one could still compare exposures and color rendering on those photos. And neglect the detail/noise department..

But this could only mean that putting the Satio in the nightmode scene while shooting hand-held isn't a good idea.
One could get away with one or two steady photos, but not the whole night!
Even if one takes some helping body positions to keep the hands fixed..


Anyway, I wont repeat the words again..
I clearly stated that I was looking forward to have some fun comparing those two cameras but failed big time doing so because of weather condition and lack of time.
I'm disappointed myself as I was excited at spending some little time experiencing with those two little cameras..

Anyway, no need to cry.
At least for me, the pics I took so far with the two cameras, specially the ones I usually take as in normal use of which portraits constitute the majority, left me more than satisfied with the N8. The Satio is definitely inferior in every aspect.
Maybe it's more inferior as a phone than as a camera, but that was expected as well.

Now, as for the most stupid statement ever written here @ the esato forum:

Where have I mentioned Iīve used HDR for the Satio?!??!

Be my guest and come to my city and Iīll take you to the same places Iīve been where Iīve taken those shots. You can take them by yourself.

Oh, I forgot. Your hand is way too shaky... They would all come out blurry or out of focus.

Anyway, thanks for all the quality shots youīve taken, pal!


First of all, I may have gone harsh with some comments concerning your input so far. But I made sure to maintain a respectful tone and discussion.
Using terms as "stupid" and "little" and mocking the photos I posted in that way, is very much disrespectful from your side.. I hope to read some positive reply in your next post regarding this point!!

Anyway, as to HDR, you didn't mention any.
I thought (or still think) you added such effect on the photo I praised..
If you haven't included HDR in your post-processing, then you earn real credits for such a pretty shot.

And by criticizing your approach in comparing those two cameras at low-light conditions, I'm not questioning your skills or knowledge as a photographer. But the rather the point behind all this work!

Maybe this would be the forth or fifth time I'd be saying this, but those cameras aren't meant for such conditions!
They are meant for either some flash portrait or flash indoors snaps, or just occasional twilights or night shots where some very well lit objects or areas are beeing shot. Dim or widely lit places aren't meant for these cameras!! Simple.
And you suggested that yourself by stating that the two phones are doing bad in such conditions.

And I did post some examples above to somehow clarify this difference. Although those weren't optimal conditions either..

Regarding my blurry snaps, why don't you come pay us a visit in a -5 to -10 temperatures 3 am and stay shooting with two cameraphones hand-held for about an hour or two (half of that time snowing on you) to the extent that you'd keep feeling pain in hands for about half an hour after warming them up good back at home!
You think you'd end up with some steady high-quality photos?

I admit, it was a crazy idea from me to go out like that.. I was over-confident I could pull something useful from both cameras.. I had little time though for that experiment and was frustrated by the weather.
I did pull little things, but definitely it was not worth it..

Posted by jake20
@Vit
Those N8 night shots in the above comparison blow away the Satio ones.. i am not sure how you say the Satio pics are better.

I see tons of noise, and an artificial artifact mess when viewing the Satio images at full res.
[ This Message was edited by: jake20 on 2010-12-22 01:28 ]


Posted by Vit

On 2010-12-22 02:27:00, jake20 wrote:
@Vit
Those N8 night shots in the above comparison blow away the Satio ones.. i am not sure how you say the Satio pics are better.

I see tons of noise, and an artificial artifact mess when viewing the Satio images at full res.
[ This Message was edited by: jake20 on 2010-12-22 01:28 ]



Hi, Jake!

To which set are you refering to? I am also not sure about what you mean about artifacts regarding Satioīs shots. I agree that the Satio produces more noise. I would be surprised if it was the other way round.

Anyway, to be honest, Iīve never said which pics were better. Iīve just said that IMO, the Satio performs better in a greater amount of occasions. Thatīs been written in one of my posts. Regarding the first set of pics, the N8 fares indeed better, but not by a far margin.

Mind you that the N8 has all the tech advantage in the world.

One thing to take i nto account is that the Satio was set @ ISO-500 whereas the N8, with a much bigger sensor and much better optics, was set @ around ISO-350. My point is that its advantage is better seen only when those pics are viewed at full res, which almost never happens, unless youīre a pixel peeper.

Now, what would you say about the flower pics? Itīs more than clear that the N8 falls miserably against the Satio.

That was my point. Nokia has put too much post processing for the N8īs high ISO shots, and the result is that it doesnīt perform that good in a great number of occasions.

That was it. Itīs not like deffending the Satio no matter what.

Besides, the N8 sensor produces too much noise in dark areas of its high ISO pics.
[ This Message was edited by: Vit on 2011-01-03 23:45 ]


Posted by false_morel

On 2011-01-04 00:03:34, Vit wrote:
That was my point. Nokia has put too much post processing for the N8īs high ISO shots, and the result is that it doesnīt perform that good in a great number of occasions.

That was it. Itīs not like deffending the Satio no matter what.

Besides, the N8 sensor produces too much noise in dark areas of its high ISO pics.


All what you observed so far is all true..
However, bad results you say?

One could sum this comparison in few sentences actually! Five to be exact!

Five statements regarding the five situations a cameraphone would be used for:

Daylight, Portraits, Night Portraits, Night shots, and Macros..

Daylight: The N8 exploits the bigger sensor and enhanced optics in comparison to the Satio and leaves the photos as natural as they could get! Almost no noise reduction, and no chromatic post-processing..

Portraits: Color tones are just accurate and natural with incredible detail compared to the Satio.

Night Portraits: Despite the feel of cold results, with the N8 there is no room for over-exposure, and one gets a natural touch as if no flash was used.

Macro: N8 isn't that impressive as the Satio or other cameraphones and compacts. That's due to the AF mechanism it uses through its lens. One could elaborate more on this, but no need to because after all, Macros are of high-quality on the N8..

And to end with our debatable night scene: The N8 goes for higher ISO speeds and limits the SS at 1/5s max and make use of an aggressive but ingenious post-processing algorithm to pull out the most of such low light conditions.
The Satio goes for longer SS, lower ISO as it can't handle high ones anyway, keep the aggressive noise reduction, which leads to some respectable results given the all the hardware limits, but useless photos in general!

Why did Nokia went for such an approach?

- Going for low SSs isn't feasible as no average user could be able to take one steady shots then. Users wont even know why their phones are suddenly acting like that! I'll elaborate on this point further in this post once and for all.
- Even if went for that 1 or even 2 sec SS, a compact camera wont be able to give one correctly exposed night shot!
The photos will still turn up low-quality anyway. Satio's pics are very good examples.
- Why not use the N8's capability of handling relatively higher ISO speeds to correct the exposures a bit, then use the decent optics advantage to implement some clever post-processing to give some brightened up photos imitating a DSLR performance?
By brightening up, even with that well worked out algorithm, chromatic noise gets disturbing actually, but one rests assured to still maintain an undistorted photo at any aspect thanks to the fine hardware.

If you find some controversy in Nokia's approach, as they went for all natural daylight and portrait photos, but heavily post-processed night photos, you have to think again.
Because leaving those night photos natural wont lead to a real natural result. Only some under-exposed low quality ones.

That's the way I see it.. Nokia found some good workaround to that night photography limitation with cameraphones and compacts in general..
Of course, high-end compacts here have the clear advantage over the N8 by setting a manual SSs, ISOs, apertures, and even higher quality optics and sensors..

To end with the SS limitation...
While I already agreed with you that it would been really nice had Nokia went with that algorithm in automatic mode and gave us the manual control to ride that algorithm by setting our own SSs and ISOs, but it isn't easy to deliver at all!

To adjust the algorithm in a way, that it handles automatic settings in certain way, and then handles some manual settings in another, isn't easy to implement at all, specially with that aggressive algorithm.

And since over 95% of the users go for automatic modes, it seems really some fruitless work had Nokia went for it.

Take these examples taken by a friend of mine who owns a Satio:



Look at what potential this scene had, and how did he handle it!!
Just to give an idea of how ignorant an average user is regarding photography.



This one he captured with my own Satio which he bought, as he already gave two other Satios away before it..

I thought we'd capture same photos, he with his Satio, and I with my N8, to compare them later.. I gave him some hints..
But when I looked at the pics back at my PC, I was astonished by the brightness of his photos!
It turned out he forget the Satio in night scene from the previous night!

And I got pissed at Nokia why they reset the setting each time the camera is turned off.
Here's a clear example why!
It's just the average user wont think much of these settings, modes, and combinations..
They'd rather go full automatic..



And here one pic he captured in the summer which made my cry!

This is a legendary scene!! 2000 meters high above sea level, yet one could capture several mountains beneath and the more than 10 kilometers away Mediterranean Sea!!

And look what a horrible photo he ended up with!
And he was shooting in automatic as well.. And Directly into the sun.. And, and....

I managed to pull this little photo out from that:



Breathtaking scene really.. I just wished I was there instead..


Anyway, all those pics you see on Flickr, and on various blogs and sites, how much percentage do they make out of all photos captured by N8 or Satio users?!

There is about 500 users in Flickr's N8 group by now.. Not all delivering some well shot photos..
And there are around 4 millions N8 owners so far!!

You really need to get an idea of what the average use is capable of, all you have is to do is take a look at photos flooding over Facebook and other social networks, and you'd be amazed by the low quality of those, even the ones taken by the best high-end compacts!!

If you are keen into night photography Vit, you must stick to your DSLR. I'm sorry..
[ This Message was edited by: false_morel on 2011-01-04 15:34 ]


Posted by Vit

On 2011-01-04 02:50:59, false_morel wrote:

- Going for low SSs isn't feasible as no average user could be able to take one steady shots then. Users wont even know why their phones are suddenly acting like that! I'll elaborate on this point further in this post once and for all.
- Even if went for that 1 or even 2 sec SS, a compact camera wont be able to give one correctly exposed night shot!
The photos will still turn up low-quality anyway. Satio's pics are very good examples.
- Why not use the N8's capability of handling relatively higher ISO speeds to correct the exposures a bit, then use the decent optics advantage to implement some clever post-processing to give some brightened up photos imitating a DSLR performance?

.
.
.

If you are keen into night photography Vit, you must stick to your DSLR. I'm sorry..
[ This Message was edited by: false_morel on 2011-01-04 02:20 ]



You keep on repeating the same statement: "stick to your DSLR".

Man, you really want to talk like a pro shooter, but the fact is that you know nothing either about APS-C, Full Frame or compact cameras.

A picture says more than a 1000 words. The following was taken with my Sony P200 (a COMPACT CAMERA), back in 2006. Exposure time of 3s. I DID ABSOLUTELY NO POST-PROCESSING FOR THIS SHOT. Even with a darker aperture of f5.6, I still have tons of examples of Exposure Times of around 1.5~5s for the f2.8 aperture. This little camera is capable of 30s of Exposure Time, pal. I guarantee that its results can impress you much more than this sample has.



You may also like to see what my Pixon12 was capable of @ ISO-50 with half a second of exposure time (the Pixon12 is also capable of 1s SS @ ISO-50). Are you still thinking of low quality shots for compacts?






Now, I am sorry for you if you think that your N8 can match these shots, pal...




The thing is that it could match them if it hadnīt been severely handicapped by Nokia with this limited SS and its aggressive post processing for low light shots.

You should stop with your excuses and preconceived statements.
[ This Message was edited by: Vit on 2011-01-04 15:52 ]


Posted by false_morel

On 2011-01-04 16:23:26, Vit wrote:
You keep on repeating the same statement: "stick to your DSLR".


Yes.. And amazingly you're still not getting the point!

Man, you really want to talk like a pro shooter, but the fact is that you know nothing either about APS-C, Full Frame or compact cameras.


I didn't say I'm a pro. What are we trying to do here and what we are discussing doesn't need an expert though!!

And based on what did you come up with that intelligent conclusion that I know nothing about DSLRs and compacts and teh relative sensors..

Dude, photography as a whole is a dummy thing! It's not Nuclear Engineering for heaven's sake!
All teh basics, and I mean all, could be covered by any person in just one week maybe less..
What's left is the experience and teh artistic touch which also referred to as taste or talent.. And in photography this is what matters most.. And I didn't claim I'm a 20 years experienced proffessional photographer. Photography isn't even a hobby for me. I'm just interested in the tech part in this domain.

And believe me even many famous photographers know little about optics and the technical part of a camera!

A picture says more than a 1000 words. The following was taken with my Sony P200 (a COMPACT CAMERA), back in 2006. Exposure time of 3s. I DID ABSOLUTELY NO POST-PROCESSING FOR THIS SHOT. Even with a darker aperture of f5.6, I still have tons of examples of Exposure Times of around 1.5~5s for the f2.8 aperture. This little camera is capable of 30s of Exposure Time, pal. I guarantee that its results can impress you much more than this sample has.


Did you read this part from my previous post or just read the parts you liked:

"That's the way I see it.. Nokia found some good workaround to that night photography limitation with cameraphones and compacts in general..
Of course, high-end compacts here have the clear advantage over the N8 by setting a manual SSs, ISOs, apertures, and even higher quality optics and sensors.."


And for heaven's sake, could you explain how do you expect from an avarage user, heck any user, to handle a 2 sec SS with the N8 handlheld? Let alone 5 secs!!

There are those electronic viewfinders on the compacts which despite that they're basically useless regadring the true function of a real viewfinder on a DSLR, but they help the user keep the camera fixed to his face while braced by the two hands.. For 1 to 2 secs SSs, this may help by much..

On a cameraphone it's not feasible at all.

Then, you're claiming that the Sony's shot is one high-quality shot.. While it's decent, what do you think a DSLR with same setting would have given? Even low-end DSLRs..

How does that photo compare to the real scene viewed by human eyes?
Maybe one could argue that the user will end up psot-processing that photo to his likings anyway, so what's the need of natural looking photo.. But it remains as a fact, despite that low SSs, even the latest and much praised 1/1.6" sensor equipped LX-5 would still struggle with a real capable camera to come close to giving the real scene.

And I know what disadvantages bigger sensors on the DSLRs have, but regarding night photography which we're debating here, compacts are clearly inferior.

Now, I am sorry for you if you think that your N8 can match these shots, pal...


Don't be sorry.. Because guess what, I wont be using my N8 to capture those type of photos anyway..

You may also like to see what my Pixon12 was capable of @ ISO-50 with half a second of exposure time (the Pixon12 is also capable of 1s SS @ ISO-50). Are you still thinking of low quality shots for compacts?


Not every scene with no sunlight is considered low-light condition!!
What's hard to figure out about that?!

The N8 has been severely handicapped with its limited SS and aggressive post processing for low light shots.

Everything you say other than that are merely excuses.


Not excuses. These are facts. The reality which Nokia had to deal with by manufacturing a high-quality cameraphone!
They had to do these compromises! Simple.
It's you're the one going with the wrong device for certain uses!

Posted by Vit
High end cameras?!?!

Are you sure you are refering to a Sony P200 as a high-end compact?

Even if it was a high-end, it would still be a high-end compact from 5 years ago. Its sensor is about the same size as the N8īs, at 1/1.8". I presume that the N8, enjoying almost 5 years of tech development, would perform much better than the P200 one.

Now, letīs face your lack of time awareness.

That P200 was a pretty good one for a 2006 compact, but are you really thinking of comparing a DSLR from nowadays to a compact P-S from 2006?

I was definitely not thinking of that when I had the idea os posting that pic. Sorry if you thought so...

Besides, you keep on insisting that slow SS is not a good thing only because itīs not possible to handle those SS with a handheld device.

Your argumentation needs to be more accurate and comprehensive.

First of all, Iīve never said I could handle those Shutter Speeds with a handheld device. Iīve never said it can be done, actually.

Nevertheless, I donīt care about that limitation. Hands have never been a limiting element for my imagination. If yours can only think about handheld shots, I AM TRULY SORRY FOR YOU.

Secondly, and finally, slower SS is a welcome additional feature, not a trade-off feature. Thatīs a fact.

Itīs also funny to see that itīs present in the competitors. Perhaps Nokia (and you!) is the most advanced and wise company on earth to decide to be the only one to cut it from its features list.

Man, I will not argue with you more than Iīve done.

You talk like you work for Nokia, elaborating extensive conclusions regarding why they have selected this or that approach.

I prefer not to speculate on that, I prefer to stick to bare facts and figures, and to what the competition is capable of.

The N8 has been undeniably and deceitfully handicapped. Thatīs a fact.

And by that fact I really do not see any advantage in having such a big sensor. To me this advantage simply doesnīt show.
[ This Message was edited by: Vit on 2011-01-04 17:43 ]


Posted by jake20
all i know is that I have a tripod for my N8, and I would love to be able to take some long 1s exposure shots.
so saying a slow shutter is worthless because of camera shake is not really a valid point to make.

but to be honest, the only reason I really needed or used a slow shutter speed with my old C905 was to achieve good low light shots which the N8 can already achieve with higher ISO.

Its not a deal killer for me at all, because the positives way outweigh the negatives on the N8 camera for me, and I am not really out a lot shooting light trails on the highway which would require a very slow shutter.

The awesome low light video capability alone makes the N8 a keeper for me.
I can take low light indoor video that i could only dream of with my old video camera.
Hopefully they will add some shutter speed options next update.



Posted by false_morel

On 2011-01-04 18:26:34, Vit wrote:
High end cameras?!?!

Are you sure you are refering to a Sony P200 as a high-end compact?

Even if it was a high-end, it would still be a high-end compact from 5 years ago. Its sensor is about the same size as the N8īs, at 1/1.8". I presume that the N8, enjoying almost 5 years of tech development, would perform much better than the P200 one.

Now, letīs face your lack of time awareness.

That P200 was a pretty good one for a 2006 compact, but are you really thinking of comparing a DSLR from nowadays to a compact P-S from 2006?

I was definitely not thinking of that when I had the idea os posting that pic. Sorry if you thought so...


Why are you always and deliberately misinterpreting my posts, giving some funny replies, and then blaming me for repeating teh words more than once?!

I was talking about all high-end compacts. In general. And a high-end remains a high-end, even 100 years later!
Even if a 1$ camera later would outperform it, high-end products remain high-end!

I agree nowadays the compacts lowered the gap by much against the low to mid-range DSLRs.. And already hinted about that in a previous post in this thread actually.

But we're talking about night photography not overall camera performance!!

And you definitely don't need to highlight certain words while typing as I can read well you know!!
You're really an expert in disrespecting you debater!!

First of all, Iīve never said I could handle those Shutter Speeds with a handheld device. Iīve never said it can be done, actually.

Nevertheless, I donīt care about that limitation. Hands have never been a limiting element for my imagination. If yours can only think about handheld shots, I AM TRULY SORRY FOR YOU.


Dude, I know you know that! You're just neglecting this fact!!

I would like that option too, and already contacted Nokia encouraging them at implementing it!!

But you, me, Jake, and others who care for such feature, have to bare in mind that we don't count more than 5% of N8 owners!! Ok? Maybe even less than 1%!!

And after all, as I'd prefer to have it, I really wont go out with my N8 only and a tripod at night trying to shoot low SS photos!
This is not the device meant for to do this!

Well, sorry to tell you this, but if I came across one guy putting his N8 on a tripod mid-town, and trying out different shots, I'd laugh my ass out at him!!

Secondly, and finally, slower SS is a welcome additional feature, not a trade-off feature. Thatīs a fact.


This is not true and on different aspects.
Wanna know why, read some more info.. I'm done with this!

Itīs also funny to see that itīs present in the competitors. Perhaps Nokia (and you!) is the most advanced and wise company on earth to decide to be the only one to cut it from its features list.


Other cameraphones doesn't have this feature. I may have missed some phone out there, but this proves nothing.

Only some mods managed to add this along other features.. But at some expense obviously..

And you can't compare a camerphone to a stand-alone compacts in this aspect, as obviously a stand-alone has much less compromises to deal with!!

I prefer not to speculate on that, I prefer to stick to bare facts and figures, and to what the competition is capable of.


Are the night photos posted online not a good proof of N8's high quality so far?!!

The N8 has been undeniably and deceitfully handicapped. Thatīs a fact.

And by that fact I really do not see any advantage in having such a big sensor. To me this advantage simply doesnīt show.


It isn't all about night photography you know..
Actually if anything, a cameraphone should be optimized for portraits mainly!!

And teh advantage of the N8's sensor is visible in many aspects, be it video capturing where no noise reduction is implemented at all!!, or still photography where it matches the latest high-end compacts quality at numerous conditions..

Posted by Vit
Why are you always and deliberately misinterpreting my posts, giving some funny replies, and then blaming me for repeating teh words more than once?!


Are you sure youīre not talking about yourself? LOL...

I was talking about all high-end compacts. In general. And a high-end remains a high-end, even 100 years later!
Even if a 1$ camera later would outperform it, high-end products remain high-end!


What can I say? First, may I repeat that the P200 has never been a high-end compact?

Even so, your comments regarding your idea of timeless high end devices is just hilarious

I agree nowadays the compacts lowered the gap by much against the low to mid-range DSLRs.. And already hinted about that in a previous post in this thread actually.

But we're talking about night photography not overall camera performance!!


Well, I always knew that, pal. Are you talking to your mirror?

And you definitely don't need to highlight certain words while typing as I can read well you know!!
You're really an expert in disrespecting you debater!!


Well, disrespect? Sorry, the esato crew should definitely put a warning sign to advert people who use bold characters:

"attention: the use of bold letters are highly offensive".

Dude, I know you know that! You're just neglecting this fact!!


For the n-th time, are you sure you are not talking about yourself? I thought that it was you the one to neglect the fact that we do not need to always hold the camera with our hands. Thatīs really odd...

I would like that option too, and already contacted Nokia encouraging them at implementing it!!


So, why we are still arguing about this? If you find it usefull, too, then we have absolutely nothing to argue about.

But you, me, Jake, and others who care for such feature, have to bare in mind that we don't count more than 5% of N8 owners!! Ok? Maybe even less than 1%!!


Well, less than that percentage cares about the highest sensor ever fitted in a mobile phone. Do you get my point? If they have decided to advertise it as a high end device, even better (in terms of HW) than most compacts, why they have limited its potential like that.

No matter how good it is today. It will always irritate me the fact that it could still be miles better than what it is now.

Thatīs my gripe, man.

I would like to be able to use its full potential. Nokia should leave up to their users the decision of whether to use lower SS or not.

And after all, as I'd prefer to have it, I really wont go out with my N8 only and a tripod at night trying to shoot low SS photos!

This is not the device meant for to do this!


I do not carry a tripod with me all the time. I never needed to do that.


Well, sorry to tell you this, but if I came across one guy putting his N8 on a tripod mid-town, and trying out different shots, I'd laugh my ass out at him!!


Well, I really do not care about what you think about that.

When I got my P200, I was in Italy. Iīve got a cheap 5 euro pocket-sized mini-tripod and once I had a guy with a digital reflex alongside me, taking pics of the Vatican @ night. He didnīt have a tripod. I could see him taking a 1000 pics without managing to take one single steady shot. He came across me and he took a look at my pics. He was absolutely stunned by what that little P200 could do with a tripod.

If you wanna take a great shot @ night, you can rest assure that most of the times you will look indeed ridiculous, no matter what you do.

Secondly, and finally, slower SS is a welcome additional feature, not a trade-off feature. Thatīs a fact.


This is not true and on different aspects.
Wanna know why, read some more info.. I'm done with this!


Yeah, I guess youīre right... 1/8s is THE perfect limit for Shutter Speed.

Could you please give me one single reference for that? It should be a really interesting reading.

Itīs also funny to see that itīs present in the competitors. Perhaps Nokia (and you!) is the most advanced and wise company on earth to decide to be the only one to cut it from its features list.


Other cameraphones doesn't have this feature. I may have missed some phone out there, but this proves nothing.

Only some mods managed to add this along other features.. But at some expense obviously..


Yes, you have missed a lot of phones, actually.

The Pixon 12 would shot at ISO-50 with 1/2s of Exposure Time in Auto Mode. It also would shot @ ISO-50 with a whole second of exposure time in its Fireworks Mode.

The Satio does 1s of Exposure Time up to ISO-250+ in its Twilight Mode.

The N8 barely does 1/8s.

And you can't compare a camerphone to a stand-alone compacts in this aspect, as obviously a stand-alone has much less compromises to deal with!!


This has been answered before. I am not asking for miracles here.

I prefer not to speculate on that, I prefer to stick to bare facts and figures, and to what the competition is capable of.


Are the night photos posted online not a good proof of N8's high quality so far?!!


Well, thatīs highly arguable.

IMO, they are nothing special and leave much to be desired for a 1/1.83" sensor with Carl-Zeiss Lenses.

The N8 has been undeniably and deceitfully handicapped. Thatīs a fact.

And by that fact I really do not see any advantage in having such a big sensor. To me this advantage simply doesnīt show.


It isn't all about night photography you know..
Actually if anything, a cameraphone should be optimized for portraits mainly!!


Well, for portraits? Where do you got that info from?

Perhaps Nokia should have said that to their customers, donīt you think?

And teh advantage of the N8's sensor is visible in many aspects, be it video capturing where no noise reduction is implemented at all!!, or still photography where it matches the latest high-end compacts quality at numerous conditions..


I agree with you on this single statement.

Nevertheless, itīs not balanced by its low light capabilities as it should have been.
[ This Message was edited by: Vit on 2011-01-07 19:38 ]


Posted by false_morel

On 2011-01-07 20:35:22, Vit wrote:

Are you sure youīre not talking about yourself? LOL...

Well, I always knew that, pal. Are you talking to your mirror?

Well, disrespect? Sorry, the esato crew should definitely put a warning sign to advert people who use bold characters:

"attention: the use of bold letters are highly offensive".


Do you know what I hate most about online forum debates? Debates which were meant to end up fruitful and of high quality discussion but rather ends up in a low level childishness..

Sometimes I intentionally go low level with some ignorant smartasses, but in your case, you're definitely not one of those and I thought we were heading to some decent discussion!

Anyway, only if you use some more respect in your posts we could come out with something useful here!

Putting parts of speech in bold, you know, is meant for highlighting the referenced parts in long articles to help a reader locate those parts without the need to read other useless parts.. That would be an example of applying that feature.
You highlighting some of your own words in a reply, could only be interpreted as you degrading your discussant and hinting that he/she doesn't possess enough comprehension skills to understand and analyze your post!

You failing to get this point and reply with a rather sarcastic comment about "Esato board and the bold feature" made it even worse!!

That's not to mention the use of direct insulting words and the "LOLs" you're obssessed with!
Just go back to your mature form. As to be honest, you're only insulting yourself by such low level replies..

What can I say? First, may I repeat that the P200 has never been a high-end compact?


It wasn't a flagship. But it wasn't a cheap low-end camera either!!
And I don't know why are you that much worked out about this specific point. Be it mid- to high-range camera or a flagship, regarding quality, most of the times there is no difference at all.

Even so, your comments regarding your idea of timeless high end devices is just hilarious


You missed this point competely!!

No matter what electoric device or product we're talking about.. Be it a digital camera, laptop, graphic card, tv, or whatever, a high-end will always remain a high-quality device that delivered top performace at the time!

Speaking of cameras, a certain of options and quality hardware which were there in decent cameras back then and missing in low-end cameras, are still there in nowadays high-ends and still missing in low-end ones..
End quality went up, but the approach remains the same..

If you had picked a DSLR back then, and shot the same photo, the same huge difference in quality will still be there had you picked up a current Sony high-end and a current DSLR and shot that same photo.. And this is jsut obvious, not speculation!!

Now, you meant that even a five years old digital camera was capable of something the current high-end cameraphone isn't capable of.
So what?

A stand-alone camera was meant for certain uses five years, and still meant for those same uses, and a cameraphone is meant for another uses..

When you blame Nokia for that SS thingy, and label the N8 as incapable whereas is it shouldn't be capable of what you're demanding here, you're being unfair and discrediting Nokia for something they should be rather credited for instead!

As when you compare the N8 with the Satio approach, which gives the user an unusable night mode unless he has a tripod at hand, this should be the approach criticized and discredited!

But do you know why SE went for that rather controversial approach?
Because had they gone with higher ISO to compensate for the lack of slow SS achieving a more realitistic exposure than going with a totally underexposed one, the Satio would have then delivered some low-quality horrific results due to hardware limiations (Sensor and optics).

When I got my P200, I was in Italy. Iīve got a cheap 5 euro pocket-sized mini-tripod and once I had a guy with a digital reflex alongside me, taking pics of the Vatican @ night. He didnīt have a tripod. I could see him taking a 1000 pics without managing to take one single steady shot. He came across me and he took a look at my pics. He was absolutely stunned by what that little P200 could do with a tripod.

If you wanna take a great shot @ night, you can rest assure that most of the times you will look indeed ridiculous, no matter what you do.


I didn't mean that tripods should be used exclusively with DSLRs!! Or else you'd look ridiculous!

I was referring to cameraphones in specific!!

As when someone goes out with a tripod, be it at night or at any time, this means he's dedicated to shooting some pro photos.. He planned for that that is and he's going out just to enjoy that activity. And not as a secondary activity.
And to use a cameraphone for that is a bit ridiculous don't you think.
If you're into photography, go buy a stand-alone camera, preferably a decent one, get a tripod, and go out enjoy your time..

The issue is, when you need to take night photos with a cameraphone, you wont have a tripod at your needs at the moment.
But there could be some cases that's it worth it if having a tripod or any similar tool to hold the phone fixed, that you could make use of that option.. That's why adding such a feature would be welcomed. But one can't blame Nokia or any cameraphone manufacturer if they decide not to! This is the point I'm making.

To do it SE's way and go with automated night mode that goes up to 1 second or more SS without the ability to lower it in case you don't have a tripod at the moment is simply stupid.

Yeah, I guess youīre right... 1/8s is THE perfect limit for Shutter Speed.

Could you please give me one single reference for that? It should be a really interesting reading.


Should I state every single detail so that I get myself clear enough!!

Writing algorithms to handle different SS speeds on different modes isn't jsut an easy job done in one hour!!
This needs testing, extensive piece of code, and quite an accurate optimization!

If you fail to figure the effort required to do such a task without the need to since less than 1% of N8 owners would use that, then you're being simply ignorant.

Yes, you have missed a lot of phones, actually.

The Pixon 12 would shot at ISO-50 with 1/2s of Exposure Time in Auto Mode. It also would shot @ ISO-50 with a whole second of exposure time in its Fireworks Mode.

The Satio does 1s of Exposure Time up to ISO-250+ in its Twilight Mode.


You call that a real manual SS setting!!
Those are automated modes for christ's sake!! With some specific post-processing algorithms that go along as well!!

Posted by Vit
Well, you talked about disrespect and childness.

Letīs refresh your memory so you can remember who have initiated this series of not-so-kind comments:

Instead, he gave me an HDR for the Satio, and other heavily post-processd photos!


Good start, pal!

Yes, you have missed a lot of phones, actually.

The Pixon 12 would shot at ISO-50 with 1/2s of Exposure Time in Auto Mode. It also would shot @ ISO-50 with a whole second of exposure time in its Fireworks Mode.

The Satio does 1s of Exposure Time up to ISO-250+ in its Twilight Mode.


You call that a real manual SS setting!!


Who was talking about real manual SS setting?!?!?

I have never written such a thing. Come back and read your own comments before posting.

I have always refered to the availability of SS slower than 1/8s. That was it, and I am repeating it for the n-th time. Please, confirm you have understood this.

Those are automated modes for christ's sake!! With some specific post-processing algorithms that go along as well!!


So what? Even a compact with manual SS has a specific NR algorithm for slower speeds.

My problem is not with Post-processing, unless itīs aggressive. Not the case with those phones Iīve mentioned, at least for low light shots.

Besides that, all JPEG files have to do with Post-processing.

I guess you cannot write Iīve asked for RAW pictures, can you?

If we canīt get even SS slower than 1/8s, RAW files really seem a thing from another world.

And to use a cameraphone for that is a bit ridiculous don't you think.


Not at all.

From a far point of view, who can tell the difference between a N8 and a Sony TX7, for instance? The N8 is even larger than the Sony.

That gap between high-end cameraphones and compacts have been narrowed a long time ago.
[ This Message was edited by: Vit on 2011-01-09 01:09 ]


Posted by false_morel

On 2011-01-09 01:53:34, Vit wrote:
Who was talking about real manual SS setting?!?!?


Me!

I was actually talking about manual SS setting where you quoted me and replied with the Pixon and Satio argument.
A misunderstanding from both sides, no harm done..

From a far point of view, who can tell the difference between a N8 and a Sony TX7, for instance? The N8 is even larger than the Sony.

That gap between high-end cameraphones and compacts have been narrowed a long time ago.


Well, yes.. This seems a topic to be discussed.. Could cameraphones replace compact digital cameras?

Before getting into this.. Just to settle our own debate about the N8-Satio night photography..

Facts:
- Satio goes with low SS (down to 1 sec) when put in nightmode.
- N8 goes for high ISO speeds (up to an average of 800) and limits the SS to minimum of 1/5 sec when put in nightmode.
- None offers full manual settings over SS. N8 offers manual overriding of every available feature, whereas the Satio limits the user control in the automated modes to just handling the EV bias..

As a result, to get the best out of the Satio in such mode, one needs to keep it steady, preferably on a tripod.
To get the best of the N8 in night mode, one could very well keep it handlheld and there is a whole bunch of tweaking options to play with to try and get the best result.

The user experience is very limited by the Satio (and other cameraphones) as one could only shoot acceptable night photos if there is a tripod at hand, while the N8 can't offer a low SS night shot, but does offer a much more flexible and practical approach..

Out of those two approaches, to objectively assess a cameraphone meant for average users who almost know nothing about the photography world, the N8 has the clear advantage!

Even for an experienced photographer, the Satio could only offer a very fully automated night mode where almost no useful tweaks could be made!
Also, even for such a user, there will be no tripod at hand almost all of the time..

What could be enhanced in both cameras, is to offer a full manual mode with full control over SS, ISO, and other variables, and even if possible, implement a variable aperture as well.

However, Vit, to open a thread bashing the N8 for its night photography "limitations" and claim that other cameraphones offer better solutions isn't fair not correct at all.
Simply because no other device offers a better solution or functionality at this aspect!!
You can't call a fully automated night mode where using a tripod is a must a better solution! At least not for the average user that count up to 99% of total owners..

Now, back to the cameraphone vs stand-alone compact topic.

Nokia have committed themselves for a while now to deliver a high-end compact replacement through their cameraphone solutions.
They declared that publicly, and are supposed to be on their way to achieve it.

So, by limiting the user's options to automated modes where the SS is very much limited, as well as no full control ISO and no manual focus nor variable aperture seems they still have a long way to go..

But they are still leading the competition at the moment. So one can't ask them for more. Here lies the problem.
Users could help push them further and demand those implementations and enhancements, but as long as the N8 is the most a cameraphone could deliver at the moment, one has to accept this as a reality.

So at the moment, cameraphones aren't of any replacements for stand-alone cameras so that photography enthusiasts could rely on and use them as primary cameras for all occasions!

Thus, taking a cameraphone and putting it on a tripod seems out of place!
It's still not ready for such usage.

And adding a single feature of changing the SS or lower it a bit in the night mode won't make it a replacement nor make it ready for full dedicated use..

If you think otherwise, elaborate on your idea..
[ This Message was edited by: false_morel on 2011-01-09 03:54 ]


Posted by zide
Would you please stop bitch-fighting and post some more comparison shots?

Thanks

Posted by etaab
Agreed. I just unbookmarked this thread.


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