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Nokia's deceitful cameraphones


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Posted by Shino03
I don't know if it's just me who notices that Nokia is trying to deceive the public by selling cameraphones with high-resolution cameras but without autofocus. Nokia phones like the C7 and C6-01 are equipped with 8mp cameras without AF and even the rumoured X7 will be following the same path as those phones. This marketing strategy makes me loath nokia more. Autofocus is more important than having higher megapixels! Just b..ecause some people are dumb who think higher mp is always better, doesn't mean they have to take advantage of it! It's no wonder why nokia's losing marketshare!


Posted by tranced
This is something I found awkward by Nokia. I never understood why they did it. This reminds of the X8. An android phone with a non af camera. How will it work with the bar code scanner app?

But here we are again the the MP race as you mentioned.

Posted by Shino03
I definitely agree! X8 too should have had autofocus but X8's case is much plausible as it's a midrange smartphone intended to be affordable/cheap unlike those Nokia handsets which have double the price of the X8..

For sure some buyers don't even know about this that they will only find out that their phones lack AF after buying it!

Posted by tranced
Agree.

But back to Nokia, I never thought they'd do something like this.

Posted by Tsepz_GP
To be fair, the C7 and C6-01 are both mid-end phones, the Cseries phones are all mid to low end, but the one that doesn't make sense to me is the E7, this thing is going to cost over 500euro and it has no AF, its a business phone, yet you wont be able to scan barcodes with it, the phone it "replaces" is the E90 and yet that had AF.

Posted by Supa_Fly
Has anyone thought to try these infiniti type focus technology in their camera phones BEFORE knocking it?

The higher the cpu processing power - and proper algorhythms (lets not forget ALL camera phones has algorhythms good or poor; hacking required for those that are poor) - the long haul to PC editing for photos of some 12yrs ago … Photoshop 4-6??

Remember … the human EYE works VERY much the same way! Even though the eye doesn't specifically focus on a particular subject ALWAYS; only when required we STILL see items at varying depths even if our conciousness doesn't process it .. the sub-concious does. Ever see out the corner of your eye … see someone creep on you out of a reflection without NEEDING to "focus" on that creep.

^ ok maybe I'm going over the top … but it would be nice to TRY this function out thoroughly before knocking it.

Posted by Shino03
@Tzepz, Although C7 and C6-01 are midrange phones, you still pay twice/trice the price of some cheap phones with AF. As what you have said, even old nokia phones have AF and if some old midrange nokia phones doesn't have, it still doesn't make sense to upgrade the mp to 8mp instead of adding AF. Maybe, Nokia's too desperate to get more buyers..Thanks by the way.. I didn't know that even the E7 doesn't have AF
[ This Message was edited by: Shino03 on 2010-11-27 09:02 ]


Posted by etaab
I agree with Prom1, without using or seeing first hand what they're capable of we cannot really comment.

Besides, its not just Nokia making the decision to release phones without AF, SE have done the same when they decided not to let their W series of Walkman phones have AF either, since they are not camera centric. So they had some high end W series phones which never had AF.

This comes as no surprise to me, i agree all phones should have AF but it would appear its not a necessary function in all devices.

Posted by AbuBasim
A fixed focus camera has the advantage that it is ready to shoot immediately. This can be great when shooting something lively like kids or pets. The disadvantage is of course that macro shots are not possible unless you have a separate selection for this, like for example on some of HTC's old smartphones.

Posted by tranced
@AbuBasim: remember that the AF capable camphones have the ability to set the focus to in-fi-ni-te. Which is the same in this case to non AF.

We all are basing on the information given in the press release. It says it has no AF and that is the point here. I know they can do much more things, but lacking AF is, as I mentioned earlier, awkward.


On 2010-11-27 13:08:55, etaab wrote:
I agree with Prom1, without using or seeing first hand what they're capable of we cannot really comment.devices.



Posted by AbuBasim

On 2010-11-27 14:00:50, tranced wrote:
@AbuBasim: remember that the AF capable camphones have the ability to set the focus to in-fi-ni-te. Which is the same in this case to non AF.

But typically with a more narrow DoF. Fixed focus cameras have a wider range. For example my old G700 could focus from about one metre to infinity.

Posted by idumbakumar
i dont think sonyericsson has 5 or 8 mp fixed focus walkmans.

Posted by Shino03
I agree with Idumbakumar.
The walkman is a different case. Some walkmans lack AF as they aren't camera-centric devices but didn't you notice that only walkman phones with 3mp/less cameras have no AF! The rest above 5 mp are all equipped with Autofocus because SE's wise enough to know that it's nonsense to have 5mp/more without Af.. Can't you just guys admit that Nokia is wrong on that move! I might be wrong but show me an 8mp cameraphone w/out AF from another manufacturer and I might forgive them for this.

It's very clear that this is a deceitful market strategy. Even gsmarena stated it that it doesn't make sense.

Posted by tranced
@AbuBasim agree there too. The fact is that Nokia should have put an AF camera module. I'm not arguing its other hardware though.

Posted by Bonovox
It's a bit crazy that it's a big 8 mega pixels & no AF. I was shocked cos the specs of them phones looked promising. The design is nice too. Surely your not going to get 8 meg quality with no focus?? Correct me if I am wrong but does it really cost that much more these days to slap on an AF or even a cheap LED for instance?? Silly mistake Nokia

Original
This is a photo without auto focus on the x8. Not bad is it really??
[ This Message was edited by: Bonovox on 2010-11-27 16:04 ]


Posted by etaab

On 2010-11-27 15:21:53, Shino03 wrote:
Can't you just guys admit that Nokia is wrong on that move


No, not until the phones which use this new way of focusing are released and put through their paces. Nobody can.

Remember, the N8 is Nokia's own camera centric device, the rest simply are not which is why it lacks AF. Its something thats missing from many smartphones. Many !

You can argue that yes those phones arent very high in the megapixel count, but how many times on this very forum have we all seen people say that megapixels dont always mean better image quality ? because it does not. Lets face it there will come a time when phones are released with 12mp cameras by default, even if the camera is quite poor compared to the N8 / Satio / Pixon.

I dont see a problem here until we see samples from the phones in question.

Posted by mrjulius
geez.. Whats the point?


Posted by false_morel
Here's an article from ASS explaining all about this EDoF implemented by Nokia in their low to mid-range phone, with listing the cons and pros of such feature over AF..


And here's a quote by Steve Litchfield reviewing the C6-01 camera:

"The Nokia C6-01 comes with the Extended Depth of Field camera, which in Steve's words "makes taking pictures almost foolproof". Well, almost. Nokia's software cannot help with composition of the picture, the available lighting, or shakey hand syndrome when you take the picture.

What it will do is make sure that every part of the picture will be in focus. It does this through using an asymmetrical lens, sampling the three different levels of colour (red, green and blue) on small patches of the picture, doing lots of complicated maths, and getting a sharp image as a result.

Does it make for a less frustrating photo taking experience for someone not used to taking pictures? I think it does. In my case, it means trying to assess light levels and how the picture is framed. There are options to adjust the light sensitivity and exposure in the pop up icon screen, but I'll be honest, leaving it on automatic is good enough for me.

Do I do arty shots that need manipulations of focus to get a depth of field effect? Nope. Nor do I need to do really close up and intricate work with this camera. The C6 sits in my pocket for those quick snap moments, mostly of my family or a nice landscape view while I'm travelling. Given those requirements, a camera that can be pulled out, a long press on the shutter key to open the camera app, then another tap to take the picture, and I'm satisfied.


It's easy to see why point and shoot cameras are being sidelined by the smartphone - the C6 is both a simple camera to use and one that can give 'above average to excellent' shots, depending on circumstances."



Nokia's approach is all clear and justified here!
This cheaper focusing hardware is meant for cheaper low and mid-range phones. It makes sense and it has its pros as well. Users going for such cheaper phones wont be seeking high-end cameraphones. All they need is a fast and simple point and shoot handset.
Consumers who seek a high-end cameraphone should go for the N8. Simple.
[ This Message was edited by: false_morel on 2010-11-28 07:03 ]


Posted by etaab
Those of us that follow Nokia's new features or functions have known about these EDOF cameras for quite some time. They're not something that appeal to me all that much but one thing we have been certain of is that there is a reason Nokia will be using them and not simply because they're ripping customers off. In fact, we may find people might prefer EDOF cameras over other phones with AF cameras.

Hell, i might stick my neck out here and say the EDOF range of phones might just take better and sharper pictures than the X10 !

Posted by Shino03

On 2010-11-27 20:29:12, etaab wrote:

On 2010-11-27 15:21:53, Shino03 wrote:
Can't you just guys admit that Nokia is wrong on that move


No, not until the phones which use this new way of focusing are released and put through their paces. Nobody can.


Well, there are apparently reviews now of the C6-01. Aren't those enough?

"Do I do arty shots that need manipulations of focus to get a depth of field effect? Nope. Nor do I need to do really close up and intricate work with this camera. The C6 sits in my pocket for those quick snap moments, mostly of my family or a nice landscape view while I'm travelling. Given those requirements, a camera that can be pulled out, a long press on the shutter key to open the camera app, then another tap to take the picture, and I'm satisfied."

I somehow agree in that case but have you forgotten that those phones are also smartphones especially that high-end E7? I wonder how will barcode readers work? Anyway, I believe that people have different preferences. If you want a phone with that so-called "Extended Depth of Field camera" then fine with me but just want to inform others that they should be aware that when using those phones to make sure to keep a distance of at least 50cm away from the object; That macro shots will be a MIRACLE... Just like to add, in gsmarena's review there is somehow no mention of that feature. It's also clear that the image quality is not as nice as you have expected...
[ This Message was edited by: Shino03 on 2010-11-28 14:14 ]


Posted by false_morel

On 2010-11-28 15:08:27, Shino03 wrote:

I somehow agree in that case but have you forgotten that those phones are also smartphones especially that high-end E7? I wonder how will barcode readers work?


E7 is business phone. Why would the camera be a selling focus point?

As to those barcodes readers, as far as I know, barcodes optimized for cell phones could be read with or without AF..


But the point to stress on here, it's shouldn't be described as decetiful act from Nokia!
They have an approach, and they justified it through their media outlets... I see no deceiving here.
You don't like those cameras.. Just don't buy those products!

Many on the other hand couldn't care less about macro shots, and could much more that they can easily and quickly to snap photos and did welcome that feature from Nokia..

It's all simple. That feature by Nokia has it pros and cons. If it fits you, go for those products. If not, just go get other phones!

Yet, all over the net you have some smartasses analyzing why Nokia went for this full focus.. Some say to cut down the production costs.. Others say it's a poor outdated strategy.. I say, you know what's really outdated here, it's those journalists who can't come with something new to accuse Nokia of!
Some even claim Nokia did so to help the N8 sell more! It can't get any more stupid than this! So they release three other phones and risk them not to sell good just for the sake of thier flahship phone. It's either some people are blindly stupid or just f**kin got out of their damn minds!!

I'm not a Nokia fan btw.. But I got some brains to use and analyze things myself.. I don't need a biased wiseass Eldar to help me out in this, nor do I need to read any bullshit article out there..


Posted by etaab
Id like to know just how many people use barcode reading software and functions anyway. I had a barcode reader on my N93 back in 2006, every phone ive bought since has had the same software yet never once have i actually needed it or used it. Its one of those gimmicks imo that does not have a future.

I also notice the N8 appears to be my first phone in years without such software from the box. Possibly Nokia think the same as myself ?

Anyway moving on..

Nokia C7 review: Rise and shine
GSMArena team, 03 November 2010.

Update 05 Nov: To redeem the Nokia C7 here are a couple of shots taken with the sharpness set to a lower, more acceptable level. As you can see, most of the artifacts seen on the previous samples are now gone so the result is definitely more pleasing.

With sharpness tuned down, photos turned out for the better so much so that we actually went ahead and shot a comparative shot with the XPERIA X10. The Nokia C7 is actually quite on par with the XPERIA X10 - except in closeup shots, of course where the fixed focus C7 loses by a wide margin.




oh and they also said

the videos shot with the Nokia C7 did manage to impress us. The amount of resolved detail is good enough, colors look nice, noise levels are kept reasonably low. They are perhaps even better than those produced by the XPERIA X10 after it got its HD-touting 2.1 update


So, what does that say ? well to me id rather have autofocus any day of the week, id rather just have that extra control. But, it would seem these early reviews are quite good of these EDOF camera modules.

Besides, like we keep going back to, the phones equiped with EDOF cameras are simply mid range smartphones, or higher end smartphones not intended to be camera orientated as such. I still dont see a problem here, Blackberry dont make great cameras but have business spec devices, HTC also make great smartphones but rather poor cameras, the same goes for Samsung who's cameras are either bad, mediocre or outright brilliant on phones like the Pixon series. Theres no inbetween.

I dont see why Nokia should be so different. If you're expecting the same camera in the N8 to be present in every Nokia device, what would differentiate each one from another ??



Posted by etaab
Heres an interesting article, well worth a read:

Damian Dinning on Nokia’s Full Focus Cameras


Posted by Bonovox
Some business phones with high quality cameras can & I think do come in handy to some business people. Say for instance architects or surveyors who may need to take pics for their work. The c6 pics do not look that bad to me
www.gsmarena.com/nokia_c6_01-review-537p6.php
[ This Message was edited by: Bonovox on 2010-11-28 22:24 ]


Posted by etaab
True, recently a surveyor and solicitor came to my business premises to inspect the unit above my store that im the manager of, i had to give them access as they did not have a key and watched as they took pictures on their cameraphones, one being an iPhone, the other a blackberry.

They're good samples on GSM area, but i think i'll stick with my N8.
[ This Message was edited by: etaab on 2010-11-29 19:27 ]



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