Posted by jake20
DM 3.8 does seem to take darker shots.. just look at my comparison pictures
Posted by riksilvers
I've seen nothing yet in DM38 that has really impressed me yet. Even with all the added functions the picture quality is no better than DM35 and in some cases looks worse. For ease of use and picture quality it looks like i'll be sticking with DM35 for the time being.....well...until DM38 final is released.
Posted by jake20
On 2009-11-13 18:23:12, riksilvers wrote:
I've seen nothing yet in DM38 that has really impressed me yet. Even with all the added functions the picture quality is no better than DM35 and in some cases looks worse. For ease of use and picture quality it looks like i'll be sticking with DM35 for the time being.....well...until DM38 final is released.
I was thinking the same exact thing the other day, but I have now taken some great shots with DM 3.8 that DM3.5 does not have the ability to take.
This picture here for example could not be taken with DM3.5 because there is no shutter speed control, and the picture would never come out so bright without tons of noise.
When you load both drivers on your phone, and photograph the same exact scene and compare, then you will see that DM 3.8 is better for certain situations, due to the manual shutter speed/focus controls.
But for just point and shoot on all auto settings, DM3.5 may be a little better, but its VERY close.
Posted by jake20
DM3.5 VS DM3.8
ALL AUTO - ISO64 - COLOR CORRECTION
WINNER = DM3.8 IMO
DM3.8 is a very tricky driver, i guess only DM can say why some shots appear to come out darker in DM3.8, but shots like this comparison, DM3.8 handles the lighting better i think, and is brighter in areas it needs to be.
DM3.5
DM3.8
Posted by jake20
another comparison DM3.5 vs DM3.8
WINNER = This one is just too close to call, almost identical, but DM3.8 handles light better ti think.
ALL AUTO settings
DM3.5
DM3.8
Posted by WindowsSeven
dm 3.5
http://www.picbg.net/u/13882/32262/369110.jpg
http://www.picbg.net/u/13882/32262/369111.jpg
http://www.picbg.net/u/13882/32262/369112.jpg
http://www.picbg.net/u/13882/32262/369347.jpg
http://www.picbg.net/u/13882/32262/369348.jpg
[ This Message was edited by: WindowsSeven on 2009-11-13 18:38 ]
Posted by jake20
more DM 3.8
the manual shutter speed option works magic
This shot was taken at ISO 100 with Shutter speed EV+2.0 . The quality of this particular shot is just not possible with DM3.5
This shot taken with DM3.8 Fluorescent effect
Posted by rajac
DM3.8
Posted by jake20
man, i cannot stop snapping pictures.. i am going to wear out my c905
more DM3.8
Full Size (3MP)
http://i33.tinypic.com/15qx7up.jpg
[ This Message was edited by: jake20 on 2009-11-13 19:54 ]
Posted by edwardob
i think it'll come own to personal preferences...i thought the dog on 3.8dm looked a little pale whereas the dog on 3.5 dm looked better....but still allexcellent shots
the red bull is excellent..
does the shutter speed work in all scene modes or just some..?
still not quite getting the hang of it....maybe it's the bugs or maybe it's me thats buggy
Posted by riksilvers
It's all swings and roundabouts......
... 
Posted by jake20
one thing i noticed about DM3.8, is that if you turn on color correction, the only way to turn it back off is to exit the camera software, and then relaunch.
not a big deal, but it would be nice if you didn't have to do that.
Posted by fe1ixs
DM 3.8 twilight landscape & manual focus
Shot like this can't be done on DM 3.5. I can control which object I want to focus on.
Manual functions allows creative shot.
Posted by riksilvers
@fe1ixs
metering mode use 'spot' to do the same thing.....
Posted by jake20
DM 3.8
Posted by penguin_xp
@fe1ixs
Shots like that can also be done with DM3.5, I guess. You just have to change the focus.
The first pic can be done using macro, while the other can be done using infinite focus.
I tried some test though I am still using DM 3.8 since I do not have the ability to change drivers as of the moment.
Macro shot:
Infinite shot:
Manual focus:
+2.0
0.0
Posted by fe1ixs
@penguin & @riksilvers
I was under presumption that we have to use twilight scenes in order to get the best result based on some poster recommendation (better compression, less noise, etc). If this is correct, then macro shot will not be possible as well as changing metering to spot.
Posted by penguin_xp
Ok, but you don't need to get to twilight scene everytime just to take shots using manual focus.
Posted by fe1ixs
On 2009-11-13 22:43:48, penguin_xp wrote:
Ok, but you don't need to get to twilight scene everytime just to take shots using manual focus.
Correct. I used twilight scene just to optimize the result (if my assumption is true). Infact, every manual functions (limited to focus, effect/WB, ISO, color correction, shutter speed) can be access from any scenes mode.
[ This Message was edited by: fe1ixs on 2009-11-13 21:51 ]
Posted by panonski
I don't get it, how ti use this drivers,
is there any chance to someone change letters in this scenemodes to get understand it
Posted by jake20
few more DM3.8
Posted by jake20
DM 3.8
ISO 64 - 1/2 sec shutter speed - NO Flash
[ This Message was edited by: jake20 on 2009-11-14 02:38 ]
Posted by robolee
look like 1/2 shutter speed is common use. i am no photographer myself but only know the basic. so how does shutter speed really affect the image?
Posted by kronos12
Jake20 indeed very sharp and nice pic...this cam drive 3.8 is pretty good but still l am waiting 3.9
Posted by jake20
@kronos
thanks! yea, i really hope DM comes out with that one final version too.
@roboloee
i am not expert either, and just learning about photography now since i got the C905, but its my understanding, that the manual shutter control in DM3.8 when used properly for low light shots will help you let in more light for a longer period of time when taking the shot, and this will result in a brighter sharper picture with less noise.
just look at rajac's shots. i think he takes the best pictures in this thread, as he really pays attention to lighting, and shutter control.
Posted by jake20
3 more DM3.8
I think I have posted enough sample pics now...
[ This Message was edited by: jake20 on 2009-11-15 03:21 ]
Posted by mikely_28
Finally! My Satio has arrived! But don't worry I still have one c905! Satio is amazing that I can say after 1st day of using it
Posted by Vit
Here it goes my latest mixed driver. I am not keen on getting the credits here, but since people might use it, I'm gonna give it a name: EMS driver version 1.0 (Essential Manual Settings driver v 1.0) Before using it, please read the following notes:
I guess this is the best driver I've edited so far; and it's the one I am currently using. It contains all the essential manual settings for my needs. Nevertheless, they might not fit your needs, and I would like to strongly emphasize that these manual settings ARE INTENDED TO USE WITH FLASH OFF. Using them with flash on it's not a good thing because up to this moment I could not make it change only an especific manual setting without changing also exposure settings if flash is on. I am working on making them work better with flash on, but I will not set a date for this driver's release. I added these functions here in order to take better slow shutter shots and also better landscapes ones. Anyway, if you turn manual settings OFF you will have everything fully automatic, what means that this driver might well be a great point-n-shoot driver for everyday use. All new settings are under the Manual Settings menu, which replaces the original Effects menu (english language file included). They are:
- Manual Focus (to be used in conjunction either with Twilight Landscape or with Normal Landscape modes);
- Manual Saturation (the smallest saturation value equals the old Black and White effect);
- Color Tuning 1 (cyan-red);
- Color Tuning 2 (yellow-blue).
Remember: THEY ARE INTENDED TO BE USED WITH FLASH OFF!
All manual settings are changed simply by selecting them @ the manual settings menu and changing their values through EV button.
In order to reset color and saturation settings to default ones, simply select OFF in the manual settings menu. Selecting OFF in the manual settings menu makes the EV button come back to its original function.
Twilight Landscape mode has forced ISO 100 for the best result in terms of noise. ISO 200 offers brighter pics, but lacks quality due to higher noise levels.
I am working on replacing some useless scenes with one shorter and one longer shutter speed scene based on Twilight Landscape mode.
We all shall praise the original modders (witchking and DM), not me.
Please report if you have found any bugs on that one.
Link:
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=ACYPL4OR
[ This Message was edited by: Vit on 2009-11-16 19:08 ]
Posted by jake20
@VIT
Thanks for this new driver!!
one question though.. is this still based off of Cybershot Xperience 4.1? so this driver still also has manual shutter speed control?
Posted by Vit
On 2009-11-16 18:43:02, jake20 wrote:
@VIT
Thanks for this new driver!!
one question though.. is this still based off of Cybershot Xperience 4.1? so this driver still also has manual shutter speed control?
Hi, Jake!
Yep, it's based on CS Xp 4.1, yet it doesn't have manual shutter speed. Even the original CS Xp 4.1 doesn't feature true manual shutter speed, as it allows only to change Flash Shutter Speed. It's much easier to set manual shutter speed for the flash because it has a dedicated register (9E), which is not the same for when the flash is turned off.
Posted by jake20
@VIT
those shots look great.. what settings did you use for them? (specifically the last 2)
Did you have to make a lot of manual setting changes to be able to produce these shots?
I am looking for the the driver that obviously produces the best images, but also one that has the right balance between auto & manual controls vs picture quality.
So far DM3.8 for me is the right balance between auto & manual control vs image quality.. but if your driver can produce better images without needing to fiddle with manual settings too much, I will certainly give it a shot.
I have tried CBE4.1, and taken some shots on AUTO settings, and I wasn't really impressed with the results compared to DM3.5/3.8.
Have you made any modifications to picture quality when auto settings are used, because many times I just need to take a quick shot and don't have time to play with a lot of different settings before I am ready to shoot.
thanks again for taking the time to make the C905 better!!
[ This Message was edited by: jake20 on 2009-11-16 20:56 ]
Posted by fe1ixs
@VIT
Nice shot. I am going to test your driver later.
I have several questions :
1. Manual shutter speed wasn't included. I am assume the driver will select the lowest shutter speed setting available for the phone if I choose twilight landscape or landscape scene. Is that correct?
2.If I want to shot during bright day, I just simply select any scenes but twilight landscape/landscape OR just using AUTO mode?
3.Can you explain more about how to use the other 2 settings ( saturation and color)? on DM, you just need to select color correction, but your driver might be able to produce more vivid color by customizing the saturation and color setting.
Thanks.
Posted by Vit
On 2009-11-16 21:41:18, jake20 wrote:
@VIT
those shots look great.. what settings did you use for them? (specifically the last 2)
Did you have to make a lot of manual setting changes to be able to produce these shots?
I am looking for the the driver that obviously produces the best images, but also one that has the right balance between auto & manual controls vs picture quality.
So far DM3.8 for me is the right balance between auto & manual control vs image quality.. but if your driver can produce better images without needing to fiddle with manual settings too much, I will certainly give it a shot.
I have tried CBE4.1, and taken some shots on AUTO settings, and I wasn't really impressed with the results compared to DM3.5/3.8.
Have you made any modifications to picture quality when auto settings are used, because many times I just need to take a quick shot and don't have time to play with a lot of different settings before I am ready to shoot.
thanks again for taking the time to make the C905 better!!
[ This Message was edited by: jake20 on 2009-11-16 20:56 ]
Pics 1, 3 and 4 were taken with the help of some of these manual controls. I've played with Color Tuning 1 & 2 before taking them. I did that because I thought that the WB presets did not provide accurate results for those scenarios. I am almost completely satisfied with this new driver. It offers some flexibility without being too complicated. I guess that if I manage to add one new scene with an even slower shutter speed for better night shots I'll be completely pleased. I guess I'll replace a scene like beach/snow with this new one.
As for sheer picture quality in terms of JPEG size, it's the same as DM 3.5. Some pics go even beyond 6 Mb of size. If you intend to use it everyday in Auto mode then I guess it's up for the job. At least to my personal taste it seems to offer accurate colors, sharpness and contrast.
I am still waiting for the final DM 3.8 in order to check out how DM has managed to include manual shutter for non-flash shots. He's a great modder and I do not intend to compete with him. I'm just sharing some of my simple experiments with you.
Posted by Vit
On 2009-11-16 21:59:37, fe1ixs wrote:
@VIT
Nice shot. I am going to test your driver later.
I have several questions :
1. Manual shutter speed wasn't included. I am assume the driver will select the lowest shutter speed setting available for the phone if I choose twilight landscape or landscape scene. Is that correct?
2.If I want to shot during bright day, I just simply select any scenes but twilight landscape/landscape OR just using AUTO mode?
3.Can you explain more about how to use the other 2 settings ( saturation and color)? on DM, you just need to select color correction, but your driver might be able to produce more vivid color by customizing the saturation and color setting.
Thanks.
1. If you have manual settings OFF in Twilight Landscape then you may adjust EV to +2.0 in order to get the longer exposure for that scene. If you select one of the manual settings then EV will no longer do that, because now adjusting EV values will change values for that specific manual feature;
2. I'd suggest you to use Auto or Landscape (Landscape if you want to use manual focus) and adjust colors with Color Tuning;
3. Try them out. It's the best way to discover their effects. Increasing saturation will provide more vivid images (although I do not like that much all that 'vividness'), and Color Tuning will provide more accurate colors if you face complex scenarios. You can change their values by changing EV values as you normally do when you want to change Exposure Compensation.
Posted by fe1ixs
On 2009-11-16 22:34:42, Vit wrote:
On 2009-11-16 21:59:37, fe1ixs wrote:
@VIT
Nice shot. I am going to test your driver later.
I have several questions :
1. Manual shutter speed wasn't included. I am assume the driver will select the lowest shutter speed setting available for the phone if I choose twilight landscape or landscape scene. Is that correct?
2.If I want to shot during bright day, I just simply select any scenes but twilight landscape/landscape OR just using AUTO mode?
3.Can you explain more about how to use the other 2 settings ( saturation and color)? on DM, you just need to select color correction, but your driver might be able to produce more vivid color by customizing the saturation and color setting.
Thanks.
1. If you have manual settings OFF in Twilight Landscape then you may adjust EV to +2.0 in order to get the longer exposure for that scene. If you select one of the manual settings then EV will no longer do that, because now adjusting EV values will change values for that specific manual feature;
2. I'd suggest you to use Auto or Landscape (Landscape if you want to use manual focus) and adjust colors with Color Tuning;
3. Try them out. It's the best way to discover their effects. Increasing saturation will provide more vivid images (although I do not like that much all that 'vividness'), and Color Tuning will provide more accurate colors if you face complex scenarios. You can change their values by changing EV values as you normally do when you want to change Exposure Compensation.
@VIT
Ok. I understand now how the exposure adjustment work in auto setting. The camera will adjust the shutter speed accordingly when we set the EV value, correct? But, for example if I set my camera to twilight landscape and I want manual focus as well, how I can be able to adjust the shutter speed/exposure? I thought It would be beneficial to have shutter speed manual in place of color setting. I found myself the auto color is good enough to do this job. to enhance the color, we can just increase the saturation a bit.
Here is samples shot from EMS driver:
Twilight landscape, focus EV +2.0, all other AUTO
Twilight landscape, focus EV +2.0, saturation +2.0
[ This Message was edited by: fe1ixs on 2009-11-16 22:17 ]
Posted by jake20
I also agree that it would be much more usefull to have a shutter control than color tuning.
But for me DM3.8 seems to be VERY accurate with colors.
[ This Message was edited by: jake20 on 2009-11-17 19:26 ]
Posted by edwardob
we certainly have a great choice of drivers available now
Posted by Vit
On 2009-11-17 00:55:44, jake20 wrote:
I also agree that it would be much more usefull to have a shutter control than color tuning.
But for me DM3.8 seems to be VERY accurate with colors.
That's not a particular hard situation to deal with. See that picture you took at the mall. Look at the orange. It's got way too much saturation. I guess that sometimes fine color tuning is better than having manual shutter speed control. Most of the times I don't need to have slower shutter speeds that I already have. Exposure times like 1/2 s, 1 s, 2 s... That's not different from what you can get either with my mixed drivers or with DM's earlier drivers. All you need is set the camera to Twilight Landscape mode. I haven't seen so far a really long exposure time shot here, something like 4s or 8s. Comparing shots taken with the same shutter speed but with different ISO values is not fair. ISO 200 may seem brighter, but certainly worse in terms of noise. What I have seen was pics taken with not too slow shutter and ISO 200. If I set ISO 200 instead of ISO 100 for Twilight Landscape, pictures would also look much brighter. Another thing is that almost all people here post very small pictures, and that way we cannot see detailed results in terms of pixel to pixel quality.
Jake, I've seen one comment of yours where you seemed amazed by a 1/2 s shutter speed (ISO 200) shot you've taken. Look at my pics @ the snooker bar. All of them have ISO 100, and many of them have shutter speeds of 1s. They are almost noise free. All I needed to do is set the camera to Twilight Landscape mode.
[ This Message was edited by: Vit on 2009-11-17 13:12 ]
Posted by buba_SE
DM 3.8
Posted by edwardob
for me what is really missing in all drivers is forced flash!
dream on!
Posted by fe1ixs
@VIT
Let me clear things up.
So you said manual ISO control would not be necessary since the camera will select the lowest ISO by itself if we set the camera to twilight landscape?
The same for manual shutter speed control, we won't need the manual function since the camera scene (twilight landscape) by default will select the lowest shutter speed value if necessary?
We are all probably under presumption that the camera scene mode doesn't guarantee the best setting for certain condition. For instance selecting twilight landscape mode on very low light condition / minimum light, might cause the camera to adjust the ISO level up (which create more noise). That is why some modders invented the manual control. But if this assumption isn't true, then your driver pretty much fit with everything we need. After all we just want the best and easiest driver to use. that's all.
Posted by wahehe15
@fe1ixs
I totally agree on every word you've said!
Posted by jake20
@fe1ixs
I also agree with you.
i am not sure that Vit is understanding this though.
@Vit
your pic at the snooker bar was auto set to ISO 100 with 1s shutter speed by just selecting twilight landscape, but this will not guarantee these ISO settings and shutter speed for all twilight landscape shots correct? depending on the amount of light available for the scene.
i still believe we need manual shutter control, because the camera will not always select the optimal settings for the picture we want to capture.
for example...what if i wanted to capture 2 pictures of a waterfall.. one that freezes the water in time so I can see the drops, and another shot that blurs the water to give the flowing effect.
how do i accomplish this without having manual control of the shutter speed?
thanks!!
[ This Message was edited by: jake20 on 2009-11-17 16:08 ]
Posted by fe1ixs
@VIT
I'm not trying to discredit you. You driver absolutely perfect complement to the current one. The saturation control is one of them. But for creative shot like jake mention, I still think ISO and shutter speed control will be needed. For just ordinary shot, your driver might fit well enough.
I think the best combination is DM 3.8 with Saturation manual (with VIT driver). Color tuning can be added if possible.
Posted by Vit
On 2009-11-17 16:18:25, fe1ixs wrote:
@VIT
Let me clear things up.
So you said manual ISO control would not be necessary since the camera will select the lowest ISO by itself if we set the camera to twilight landscape?
The same for manual shutter speed control, we won't need the manual function since the camera scene (twilight landscape) by default will select the lowest shutter speed value if necessary?
We are all probably under presumption that the camera scene mode doesn't guarantee the best setting for certain condition. For instance selecting twilight landscape mode on very low light condition / minimum light, might cause the camera to adjust the ISO level up (which create more noise). That is why some modders invented the manual control. But if this assumption isn't true, then your driver pretty much fit with everything we need. After all we just want the best and easiest driver to use. that's all.
First things first.
At once, I've edited the Cybershot Xperience in order to provide the same JPEG quality that we had with DM 3.5 and also to provide better night shots, by putting together slower shutter speeds with manual focus. That action provided awesome usability of Twilight Landscape mode even for macro shots, with shutter speeds of even more than 1s with forced ISO 100. It was received as way too much complicated, although it had a vast number of manual controls to play with.
Secondly, I've tried to decrease the number of manual controls to provide users with some of the most critical manual controls available at the moment. Now you complaint that it's too simple.
I really can't understand that. Most of the critics seem to lack arguments. What I've seen so far is shots that could simply have been taken with either mine or with previous DM drivers as well. I see no difference in shots taken with your supposedly manual shutter speed when faced against what we already had before. If you come and post a picture with 4 or 8 seconds of exposure time with ISO 100, than I would be convinced that the new manual shutter speed option is really good, but if you come with 1s, ISO 200 pics, then I would say it's pretty much much less usefull than having manual color control and saturation. It's the same that I already can get with my drivers and with previous DM's.
[ This Message was edited by: Vit on 2009-11-17 19:26 ]
Posted by Vit
On 2009-11-17 17:06:24, jake20 wrote:
@fe1ixs
I also agree with you.
i am not sure that Vit is understanding this though.
@Vit
your pic at the snooker bar was auto set to ISO 100 with 1s shutter speed by just selecting twilight landscape, but this will not guarantee these ISO settings and shutter speed for all twilight landscape shots correct? depending on the amount of light available for the scene.
i still believe we need manual shutter control, because the camera will not always select the optimal settings for the picture we want to capture.
for example...what if i wanted to capture 2 pictures of a waterfall.. one that freezes the water in time so I can see the drops, and another shot that blurs the water to give the flowing effect.
how do i accomplish this without having manual control of the shutter speed?
thanks!!
[ This Message was edited by: jake20 on 2009-11-17 16:08 ]
First, I am finding all this stuff really, really curious. I thought that you were the one who liked to take shots without having to adjust all settings. Now you come and say that you want to adjust settings for optimum results... Really strange.
You haven't read my posts completely. Twilight Landscape mode has forced ISO 100.
If you can provide images to show that manual shutter speed is actually working, in other words, that you can set a fixed shutter speed, then I would say it's a good thing, but still I would not say it's more important than having color tuning at hand.
As for the waterfall, If you use Twilight Landscape it's almost guaranteed that you're gonna have the proper effect captured. If you set 1s for exposure time, for example, you may end up with an overexposured picture.
Anyway, as I've written, this driver provides the best for my needs, but it may not be the best for your needs.
[ This Message was edited by: Vit on 2009-11-17 20:11 ]
Posted by jake20
@Vit,
please do not get angry or upset, as i am just trying to figure out what is the best driver for my needs.
I am not a photography expert such as yourself.
I have already thanked you previously for dedicating time to work on these drivers.
It may be just a matter of understanding how to use your driver properly, thats all.
This is why i asked you how to properly use your driver to take a picture of an example situation, like a waterfall.
you still did not really answer my question on how to achieve both the water "flowing" effect, and the still shot effect with your driver.
is it just a matter of hoping that the camera selects the right shutter speed for the effect i want?
[ This Message was edited by: jake20 on 2009-11-17 19:43 ]
Posted by edwardob
@ good on you......you've provided us with another option we can use if we want.....
your doing your best....and we still want more...i'm looking to your next incarnation
if i knew how to do it myself i would...but i can't...
Posted by fe1ixs
On 2009-11-17 20:40:00, jake20 wrote:
@Vit,
please do not get angry or upset, as i am just trying to figure out what is the best driver for my needs.
I am not a photography expert such as yourself.
I have already thanked you previously for dedicating time to work on these drivers.
It may be just a matter of understanding how to use your driver properly, thats all.
This is why i asked you how to properly use your driver to take a picture of an example situation, like a waterfall.
you still did not really answer my question on how to achieve both the water "flowing" effect, and the still shot effect with your driver.
is it just a matter of hoping that the camera selects the right shutter speed for the effect i want?
[ This Message was edited by: jake20 on 2009-11-17 19:43 ]
@jake20
I think what VIT tried to explain to us is he already modified the twilight landscape scene so that if you select this scene mode, the camera will force to select the lowest ISO (ISO 100) and lower shutter speed compare to the original driver. In another word, to get the best low light shot, you just simply select this scene mode without having to play with manual setting. The only adjustment needed is the manual focus (for macro) and color enhancement.
@VIT
I appreciate for all of this. like I said earlier, our presumption might not be true and apparently not. The assumption base on basic principles of how the camera exposure work. You really make the use of this camera easy and fun. Thank you so much and I'm waiting for your next update!
Posted by Vit
On 2009-11-17 20:40:00, jake20 wrote:
@Vit,
please do not get angry or upset, as i am just trying to figure out what is the best driver for my needs.
I am not a photography expert such as yourself.
I have already thanked you previously for dedicating time to work on these drivers.
It may be just a matter of understanding how to use your driver properly, thats all.
This is why i asked you how to properly use your driver to take a picture of an example situation, like a waterfall.
you still did not really answer my question on how to achieve both the water "flowing" effect, and the still shot effect with your driver.
is it just a matter of hoping that the camera selects the right shutter speed for the effect i want?
[ This Message was edited by: jake20 on 2009-11-17 19:43 ]
Hi, Jake. I'm not angry. Nevertheless, what upsets me is to receive bad critics without proper arguments, like wahehe15 likes to do. Another thing that upsets me is feeling like writing to the wind. That's indeed frustrating and makes me want not to answer things at all. Finally, what makes me want to stop posting things is having to deal with incomplete/incorrect arguments, when there plenty examples available to refute them, like saying that a given driver is not capable of doing something when it's already been shown the contrary.