Posted by masseur
ok, it seems we need a discussion about these
Should we allow raffles?
if so...
How will they work?
Who should do the draw?
who should collect the money?
when should the money be sent?
what maximum price per ticket? (this will decide the number of tickets)
etc etc
Posted by J-J
Personally i think not, i think it opens the flood gates for lots of half completed sales, people 'buying tickets' and having to wait weeks for the outcome, half completed raffles sitting uncompleted for weeks or the seller forgetting about them.
Plus the trust issue on here has always been a factor when it comes to buying and selling this would just increase the potential for fraud ten fold and yes it would be for smaller amounts but it would be for an increased number of users.
the issue you also have to consider and that there is absolutely no way of controlling is...
What is there to stop me raffling off my phone, getting on of my friends who uses this site to join the raffle, making sure they win it, keeping the phone and just pocketing everyone elses money?
There is physically no way of controlling these raffles enough for them to be safe for all users, there is always going to be someone who doesnt win questioning the integrity of the raffller.
For me the buying and selling is risky enough as it is already with out adding extra risk and more time consuming sales
Posted by carkitter
It sounds like a nice idea initially, but in the end it doesn't work for the majority of ticket buyers and I can't see it being able to manage itself unlike the A-ZoTT. It'll need constant supervision by moderators and increase admin costs to Esato for little or no benefit to the site.
Posted by masseur
I think as PeterKay said in the other thread, it would need to be drawn by a respected member or one who is at the top of the feedback table. So that takes care of the "making sure as friend wins" problem. Similarly, the person making thr draw should probably also be the treasurer for that raffle.
also...
I think that no one should pay any money into the raffle until all tickets are sold.
Also, there should be a fixed time limit for selling the tickets and if that time expires then the raffle is abandoned.
that is, if we are to do this at all...
Posted by RLP06
I think its going to go over people's heads, especially with for expensive items like an iphone.
PeterKay can't always collect the money and do the raffle...
Its a nice idea, but its too time consuming, too much logistics, and keeping track of things is going to be a nightmare... like I said in the other post, it happened once because we were trying to help willi out, and yes it was a sucess.
However: as a seller you would go to a raffle format as:
1) You take less risk on money collection
2) You can get a higher price
3) You don't have to do the work, someone senior collects the money and organises
With all sellers moving to a raffle format, I just feel buyers will always be taking a gamble unless they "buy all the tickets". As a buyer, I just feel I wouldn't be able to buy the phones I want anymore, and as a seller, I think this is great. However, the system will deteriorate and people will lose interest as they keep losing, and we're just going to end up with the original format....
Hope all that was coherent
Posted by PeterKay
I don't think it should be scrapped, however it needs to be conducted in a correct and fair manner as the previous raffle was handled.
A few points as i mentioned before must be followed:
1. The seller is reputable, has good feedback
2. The Raffle host must be reputable/respectful
3. The draw must be taken with a witness at hand or even a camera recording
4. The price of the tickets should be cheap
5. The phone value must be reasonable
6. There must be a good reaso to raffle the item, it must've been in the market before! if its hard to sell then raffle it like weirdwilli's samsung g600.
A few points here i feel are important, no.6 being the key.
Posted by RLP06
I agree, #6 is pretty key, so people don't move to raffle immediately...
The only reason I think people have to raffle from the start is to get a higher price than you would without a raffle, which I think is taking advantage (not helping the community)
Posted by carkitter
The raffle format is best suited to new items and to generate income for a charity, otherwise accusations of profiteering will abound. The suggestion of video recording the draw is impractical IMO.
Posted by PeterKay
On 2008-07-03 13:52:16, carkitter wrote:
The suggestion of video recording the draw is impractical IMO.
worked for me.
Posted by dougproctor
Being completely unbiased about this , even though I lost £5 in the last raffle we had for that magnificent Samsung phone
, I think this could get out of hand. We did that last raffle to help out a poor 14 year old with a phone he hated and was unable to sell. It was fun at the time as everyone will agree.
This could become the normal way of selling and is going to be an administrative nightmare to run - for somebody.
I think it is a way of getting more than you would by selling it alone - I mean a phone for £12 is much better than buying it for £300!! But if you continually lose, it adds up and the novelty will wear off quite quickly.
If you want to enter in a raffle for a phone, go on Ebay!!
Let's keep the "for sale" section on this site as it was originally intended - for sale or trade not a raffle!
Doug
Posted by PeterKay
I hear what you say Doug and agree with you.
We can keep the Esato Market for normal sales
but i think a raffle now and then would be fun
Posted by RLP06
I think now and then is the key, but who is to decide what is 'once in a while' or who gets to raffle their phone... at the end of the day, we did it once in an 'opportunistic manner' to help out a 14 year old... not that we will help every 14 year old that needs money, but it just happened, and weirdwilli got the better deal out of it...
Posted by dougproctor
Peter,
I agree - now and again! But what will happen is that someone will offer their phone for sale and as we all know, no-one offers what the phone is actally worth - we never get what we want for it so we think - let's raffle it - make more of what I want plus possibly a bit more. I am sure that is the way it will go.
And who decides who does the odd raffle - the mods? This could very quickly get out of hand, realy think we ought to stay clear of it unless Willi has another phone he wants to offload on some poor .........
This was fun for a £85 phone, not so for a £300 odd top spec phone. And are there not laws about raffles and licencing etc?
My £5 worth..... And, Peter, I am only 14 years old and have this settee thing I want to........
[ This Message was edited by: dougproctor on 2008-07-03 15:44 ]
Posted by pmerryman
I think we just stick with the For Sale/Trade.
We were helping out Weirdwilli in his plight to get rid of his unwanted G600, but a one off I think it should be.
Posted by dougproctor
Can the mods put up a voting form thingie where we indicate our preference? You know - the no, not flamin' likely, over my dead body thing!
Posted by F1
my iphone is unwanted and nobody seems to want to buy a 16gb they all go for the 8gb because of the price
what are us 16gb owners ment to do?
Posted by pmerryman
Bang it on ebay?
Posted by tranced
On 2008-07-03 16:42:44, dougproctor wrote:
Can the mods put up a voting form thingie where we indicate our preference? You know - the no, not flamin' likely, over my dead body thing!
i could do a poll if you all want me to.
Posted by PeterKay
Come on lets have a vote
Lets be democratic
Posted by F1
On 2008-07-03 17:33:13, pmerryman wrote:
Bang it on ebay?
no its a fest of scams
Posted by pmerryman
On 2008-07-03 17:36:17, F1 wrote:
On 2008-07-03 17:33:13, pmerryman wrote:
Bang it on ebay?
no its a fest of scams
Theres a few of them going on here too. Get the poll going, to see the outcome.
Posted by masseur
a poll would be good but you can't really have a poll until the method of working and rules for such raffles on Esato is established
we need to know what we're voting for...
Posted by RLP06
On 2008-07-03 17:32:25, F1 wrote:
my iphone is unwanted and nobody seems to want to buy a 16gb they all go for the 8gb because of the price
what are us 16gb owners ment to do?
Well, no offence mate, but its because of the price you have set, 12x25 = 300 pounds...
A new iPhone is coming out, plus the 8gb one was on sale for 169 pounds at one point... I would buy your phone, just not at that price, and I think thats the reason for the raffle, you're trying to get a price you wouldn't get otherwise, which is just taking advantage...
Posted by pmerryman
Would a poll of Yes or No to the selling by raffle not be enough to start with. If a no is the outcome, then we dont need any ground rules.
Posted by masseur
yes, but perhaps people can decide better if they know how it will be run
people may simply say no because they have doubt about how it will work and people who say yes might not like how it eventually turns out that it will be run
I think we should be better informed to make our decision and we know exactly what we are voting for either way
Posted by tranced
On 2008-07-03 17:44:23, masseur wrote:
a poll would be good but you can't really have a poll until the method of working and rules for such raffles on Esato is established
so, stablish the rules and methods
and san se acabo(saint finish)
Posted by F1
On 2008-07-03 17:56:32, RLP06 wrote:
On 2008-07-03 17:32:25, F1 wrote:
my iphone is unwanted and nobody seems to want to buy a 16gb they all go for the 8gb because of the price
what are us 16gb owners ment to do?
Well, no offence mate, but its because of the price you have set, 12x25 = 300 pounds...
A new iPhone is coming out, plus the 8gb one was on sale for 169 pounds at one point... I would buy your phone, just not at that price, and I think thats the reason for the raffle, you're trying to get a price you wouldn't get otherwise, which is just taking advantage...
so what your saying is you flammed my thread to get my phone cheaper
thanks
Posted by spikeyjac
I think there should be a set amount of tickets, etc
Posted by Marly
@F1:
This is not meant against you and/or your phone, but against raffles in general, when they're only started, to get the asking price for a phone, which, as we all know, we don't get in a normal sale.
And yes, a raffle once in a while, like that with weirdwilli's Samsung is fun, but I'm against a raffle, when it's put up by the seller himself, only as a selling method, with the purpose of getting a better price.
Anyways, if and when raffles like these are put up, the seller shouldn't decide about the price, a few trusted sellers should be doing this.
[joke on] Or can I put up a raffle for my father-in-law's spare Nokia 1600, only 25 tickets at £1 ? [joke off]
edited: typo
_________________
V600i, K600i, K700i, K750i, K800i, K810i, P990i 
W800i, W810i, W850i, W900i and other brands : HTC, Motorola, Nokia, Sharp, Mitsubishi, Panasonic, Alcatel and Sagem.[ This Message was edited by: Marly on 2008-07-03 20:47 ]
Posted by RLP06
No, I didn't flame your thread to get your phone cheaper...
I've had 3 iPhones in the past, I can get them cheap from US friends, I just think its a little unfair to be running raffles thats all...
Posted by PeterKay
Come on dudes, no arguments!
Not helping anyone.
So as Masseur asks, are raffles to be given the go ahead?
if so what rules are required!
Posted by RLP06
The biggest issue is going to be: who gets to raffle? and how often?
Maybe 1 per quarter for traders over a certain about of feedback and membership in the forum?
Posted by F1
just for the record OFIAICH offered to do it and was going to post but it was locked before he could
Posted by pmerryman
It a no from me regardless of the rules. Just my opinion
Posted by ofiaich
Hi,
yes, F1 asked me if I would, and I said I can.
I would have managed it PeterKay style because he, like me, is a top man
Is there a voting yes - no function on Esato ? I can't remember.....
Ofiaich
Posted by dougproctor
Ofiaich,
Yes, you agreed for this Iphone but would you want to do it for everyone who wants a raffle?
And F1, no-one flamed your thread to get a cheaper price! Personally, I thought it was too expensive as well, as did others. Let's have a vote to see if we want them before setting up rules. If the majority say no, it will save an awful lot of someone's time.
I think we are on a rocky road personally.......
Doug
Posted by Cycovision
I take it that Esato can do this without a special license, wherever it's hosted? Thing is, a raffle is technically speaking a form of gambling in some countries.
But that's just a technicality and so not at all helpful! What we could do with is a little PHP script to tag on to the site that, on the press of a button, draws the winning number(s) and posts them to a locked topic. If you stick the script behind a password, you could even invite guest members to access the page whenever a draw is due and press the button.
All automatic so no cheating
And such a script would not be difficult to make...
Posted by dougproctor
I brought up the subject of a licence for a raffle a few posts ago!! Anyone?
Posted by Cycovision
^^^
did somebody say something?
oh, sorry mate
Posted by dougproctor
Sorry, Cyclovision, all I meant was that we might need a licence for gambling which is what it is.
Not trying to be funny or smart!
Doug
Posted by Cycovision
HeHeHe! Yeah, I was only kidding of course, I must have missed your post
Back on Topic, what does everyone think of the PHP script idea for drawing the numbers? At least it solves one problem (to an extent)?
Posted by RLP06
I think the method of drawing is less of an issue than the issue of who gets to do a raffle, how often and the price
price being one of the key considerations
Posted by ofiaich
Hi dougproctor!
Ofiaich,
Yes, you agreed for this Iphone but would you want to do it for everyone who wants a raffle?
Yes, you agreed for this Iphone but would you want to do it for everyone who wants a raffle?
No, not for everyone, but I think to help out once in awhile is ok...
Ofiaich
Posted by dougproctor
^^^^ Yes, that's your choice, of course. And once in a while would be probably okay but I think it will become the norm for the reason above i.e. can't sell - not offered enough - let's have a raffle!
Sorry, will but out now - you know my feelings,
Doug
Posted by ofiaich
Hi!
yes, as you say, my choice, and yes, sometimes OK for me to do.
But it would not become the norm for me, nor would I buy a ticket for every raffle.
I guess the Mr. Laffen can make an appearance and decide !
Ofiaich
Posted by paul101
On 2008-07-03 20:57:23, Cycovision wrote:
But that's just a technicality and so not at all helpful! What we could do with is a little PHP script to tag on to the site that, on the press of a button, draws the winning number(s) and posts them to a locked topic. If you stick the script behind a password, you could even invite guest members to access the page whenever a draw is due and press the button.
All automatic so no cheating
And such a script would not be difficult to make...
to do a raffle, maybe the funds should be transferred to an account created to deal with the transactions, having its own id (which can be attached to the thread), and once enough money is collected... a random person can do the draw and winners name displayed
it is seeming a bit complicated to set up
and wether or not people are going to find ways of abusing it??
Posted by F1
getting someone everybody trusts is the best way to do it IMO and the least hassel. the arguments that suggest its unfair that you could enter a raffel 100 times at 5 a go and you might loose, but thats a raffel, the point of gambeling is taking a risk and beinifiting or loosing from that risk, that is the fun of it and if you do not see the point in that then there is no point in entering. If everybody won everytime then there would be no economy would there ? if you always had the best item or decision you would just monopolise the society but life isnt like that. life is about risks and your luck on those risks,
think of it in the bigger picture and try to understand what a raffel is before ludacris arguments are made against a topic you obviously are very uneducated in
Posted by Marly
Laffen should have a look at this, before we decide whether we want it.
Depending on the country, where Esato is hosted, it might not even be allowed, as it's gambling.
Dunno whether that's the case though, but in my country a license is needed.
Posted by dougproctor
F1 - are you some sort of windup merchant? I object, and others will I hope as well, to being called an uneducated person just because I disagree with you trying to get the full price back for a phone you obviously bought in error!
You are a relative newcomer to this site - there are many others who have commented and given their opinion and have been on here a damn site longer than the couple of months like yourself. You have perhaps not been here long enough to find out what this site is all about. The last raffle was a one off, or I thought it was, not a way of opening the flood gates for people to off load the phones they would not be able to sell by some other method!
Please keep your "uneducated" comments to yourself!
Doug
[ This Message was edited by: on 2008-07-04 08:46 ]
Posted by laffen
I do not think it is allowed to host/run/organize lotteries here in Norway. The goverment is strict on this. I am not very familiar with the lottey act but casino, football betting sites is not allowed. Sites offering this to norwegians must be located abroad.
Anyone wanting to enlighten me can read the
Lottery act here