Posted by max_wedge
On 2008-03-26 09:31:46, mib1800 wrote:
Are we talking about phone OS or some of your other bullsh*t?
The last I saw, symbian is still way in front in terms of device installed/sales.
That argument again? Methinks we've argued this before mib my old adversery
s60 is ahead because Nokia have a large marketshare, and they deserve credit for having well spec'd appealing handsets. But their marketshare is not due to smartphone users, but just average end users most of whom have never installed an app on a phone in their life.
I think you will find a higher proportion of WM users are aware of it's capacity as an application platform. Fair or not, "windows mobile" is synonomous with "install your own programs" in the eyes of average consumers. But "s60" and "Symbian" might as well be greek to the same people.
Posted by Dogmann
@askd
The reason i mentioned it is you were saying how great a Bluetooth PAN was and i was just pointing out that there are better alternatives.
Correct like the majority of users i neither know or care much about the technical side of an OS as most all i care about is how well it achieves what i want it to do.
As for this comment
"It may baffle you but hardware is different from software"
Now you really are showing your ignorance as that is just ridiculous to even suggest and insulting and uncalled for.
While with this comment you appear to be getting very confused
"A Dell Axim X51 PDa is no where less capable than an N95 in multimiedia capabilities that mean WM has the multimiedia power required but its not implememtned on most of the hardware"
It may baffle you that it isn't a smart phone so has absolutely no relevance to a discussion on smart phones and whilst it may be possible in a PDA obviously it isn't to date in a smart phone is it?. So currently what ever it may be capable of it isn't currently delivering as good or better experience than Symbian/S60 is it?
Once again please could you explain what this actually means as it seems to just be a contradiction.
"If you say that Symbian phones are better at Multimdeia than WM phones, I will wholeheartadly agree with you but saying SYmbian is better than WM in multimedia is nonsense."
As again not only does this still not make any sense but it also isn't true is it?
Marc
_________________
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Dogmanns Nokia E90 Blog @ http://dogmann.vox.com/
Honoured to have won BEST DEBATER
[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2008-03-26 13:56 ]
Posted by mib1800
On 2008-03-26 14:24:24, Boinng wrote:
No, there isn't - of course there isn't. Because as with any other computer, you exercise some basic care over what you install. You use basic common sense in selecting your software, just as you would for your PC or Mac at home - that doesn't mean being "anxious" about anything, just sensible.
So how can you be sure? Do you have a central body to do QA that a WM program do not do damage like you have with Symbian signed?
With WM, there is more tendency for programmers to use "dangerous" functions without penalty to achieve something instead of doing proper due diligence. This leads to abuse of the OS core. Seen many apps (even from reputable source) that modify initialisation/startup files.
Do you live in constant fear that anything you install on your computer might destroy it? Of course not, although there is always the possibility that badly written or malicious software could do damage, because the chances are you're running an open OS - the exact same principle applies to WM.
With WM you do. With Symbian you dont.
With Symbian I can be sure that a prog cannot send a premium SMS without me knowing. With WM anything goes. I bet you must be those who always click OK without blinking when an dialog box popup in your browser whether you want to install ActiveX control.
that kind of functionality is easily available via freeware and tweaks on WM, and yet costs $40 for S60 owners, and is the "only" app of its type - I think that supports a lot of what's being said here.
maybe you want to provide a link on your "freeware" that can do what dogmann posted. while you are at it why dont you also show me a advance call management app for WM (like this one http://my-symbian.com/s60v3/s[....]ications.php?fldAuto=156&faq=1 .
.
@aksd:
The only reason its more programmer friendly is because its more powerful.
Why are you still confused? Symbian API has more capability than WM. As a programmer you can use ALL of what the API provides. So you can make a more super-duper app with Symbian API ==> it is more powerful.
The main unfriendly you are talking about is getting your software into the market and allowing it to be use in potentially many millions of phone. Like I say if you dont want to pay you can always use the open signed method.
@max_wedge
I think you will find a higher proportion of WM users are aware of it's capacity as an application platform.
This is only due to WM has a longer history (starting from pda era). It is not too difficult to comprehend it has more apps because it has been around longer. But it is just superflous to deduce from because of this it is a more powerful platform. Since the popularity of s60, there are now a flood of new apps being developed. How can you be so sure that s60 would not displace WM in having the most number of apps when app development on S60 goes into full swing.
You keep saying WM is powerful. It may be more powerful if the type of app is PDA type app. But if you want to do a PDA cum phone cum multimedia type app S60 still may be more powerful. For example, is there any app on WM that do something like this: http://my-symbian.com/s60v3/s[....]ications.php?fldAuto=156&faq=1
Posted by aksd
Yes we'll it was meant to be a wee bit insulting, I think you posted that I know little of the Symbian OS, which I found belittling after posting such exhaustive threads comparing both OS's. My apologies if you did'nt mean anything by it and I will take my comment back.
Now we're talking of an OS, its immaterial where the works, a PDA or a phone, still uses WM does'nt it, its a demonstration that WM has the same multimedia capabilities if put to proper use.
SYmbian phones use hardware acceleration as in the N95 and the N82, this makes them better multimedia devices, we both agree on this, right?
WM phones such as the TyTn2 lack the driver hence make useless multimedia devices, we agree on this as well.
The Dell Axim X51 implements the intel graphic accelerator making it a very capapble multimedia device. THis runs on WM5 modded it runs on WM6 and so on. This has similar multimeida features as the N95/N82.
The iMate 6150 as well has excellent multimeida capabilities due to the GoForce 5500 but not as good as the N95 becuase of improper implementation.
From this we can see that WM as an OS is in no way lacking where multimedia capabilities are concerned but its limitation is due to its hardware. Nokia on the other hand have fully implemented their hardware making a device superior where hardware is concerened and a superior end product no doubt about this. But this does not mean Symbian has superior multimiedia capabilties. If we could install Symbian on a TyTn2 and did'nt implement the drivers we'd still have a crippled device, this is what I mean that SYmbian phones are better than WM where multimedia is concerned but Symbian as an OS is'nt superior to WM in the multimedia aspects of the OS. I hope you have understood it this time round
.
@mib
here you go: http://www.freewarepocketpc.net/ppc-download-isecretary-v4-3.html
_________________
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Akshay
http://www.flickr.com/photos/akshaydashrath/
[ This Message was edited by: aksd on 2008-03-26 14:17 ]
Posted by max_wedge
On 2008-03-26 14:08:03, Dogmann wrote:
Sorry but from your answers it is evident you really have very little idea of just how powerful or what is actually available for S60.
From your answer below I think you can ask yourself the same thing about WM.
For instance it is now possible with an app whose name i have forgotten to use your S60 device as a WiFi access point using the devices 3G/HSDPA connection so that a WiFi device such as your Laptop can access the Internet when there is no WiFi available and the speed and bandwidth this offers is far superior to a Bluetooth connection.
You can do this on WM with a reg hack (no actual software required). Or you can go software if you prefer.
@mib
@Boinng, max
what I meant by brick is the corruption or loss of data / configuration and the effort to bring the phone back to the state before the hang. (I am not saying it cause damage to the hardware ) So there is always the anxiety that the phone will die everytime you install any software (even freeware) in WM. This is the price you pay for "unprotected" OS. I have this same feeling on s60v2 but now with s60v3 I am not worried a bit.
Well, as I said, using your definition, I've never bricked a ppc yet.
Oh, I admit on maybe two occasions (in hundreds of installs), I've had to hack the registry or search google for a fix to something. But never had to hardware reset due to faulty software. I do always google software and try and read reviews before installing, just simple precaution really.
Posted by max_wedge
@mib, agree there is no such thing as answering machine software for most WM phones. The reason is due to HTC hardware, so the problem is not a WM limitation but HTC limitation. The GIGABYTE G-smart for example, does have answering machine software. The G-smart is built by Gigabyte.
http://www.pocketpcmag.com/bl[....]ne_softwa&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1
(note this link is for 2006, HTC may have got their act together since, and there may also be other non-htc WM besides Gigabyte that can use answering machine software such as the iSecretary that aksd linked to)
@dogmann, re: multimedia, again we have tardiness on HTC's part in implementing hardware acceleration. WM itself is not the bottleneck to good video. But I agree this is something that needs addressing by HTC.
Posted by Dogmann
@askd
Your logic is flawed as it really doesn't matter what the potential of an OS or UI is if it is not implemented then it is not available and is wasted, theory counts for very little.
Most if not all would agree including me that UIQ is a great and powerful UI but because currently it is not supported by powerful enough hardware and well enough written code it is failing to achieve it's true potential. So whilst it could be the best it isn't and until such time as it gets those things it won't be the best either.
So to claim anything is the best just on what it could do means nothing you can only judge it on what it actually delivers now that's logical isn't it?
Also again just because some like or can hack and modify their devices doesn't mean everyone either needs to or wants to. All these excuses as to why WM isn't the most used and dominant OS again means nothing the simple fact is it isn't.
Now if it is the best OS for you and what you want and need to do fair enough that's your choice to make and i for one wouldn't try and stop you or suggest you use another OS. But all these its' better it's more powerful statements are not supported by facts.
Marc
_________________
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Dogmanns Nokia E90 Blog @ http://dogmann.vox.com/
Honoured to have won BEST DEBATER
[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2008-03-26 14:37 ]
Posted by anonymuser
On 2008-03-26 15:08:58, mib1800 wrote:
So how can you be sure? Do you have a central body to do QA that a WM program do not do damage like you have with Symbian signed?
No, and that's the whole point - I don't want "Windows Mobile Signed" and I don't know anyone that does. There's no desire amongst WM users for such a "central body" (eg microsoft) to be doing that, and that's because WM users tend to enjoy the freedom that an open OS permits. We're not all cowering away in fear of that "bad" app, we're just enjoying our powerful pocket computers!
With WM, there is more tendency for programmers to use "dangerous" functions without penalty to achieve something instead of doing proper due diligence. This leads to abuse of the OS core. Seen many apps (even from reputable source) that modify initialisation/startup files.
And again, if you install rubbish software (from a "reputable source" or otherwise) and it has some bad knock-on effect, you uninstall it. The biggest "danger" anyone faces from most of these "abusive" applications is the need to remove it.
It's interesting that you selectively ignored the comparisons I drew between WM, S60, and the average desktop OS in my previous post. Can I ask again, do you live in fear of your PC or Mac? Would you rather install S60 on it, rather than meddle in the "dangerous" world of open operating systems like OS X, or Windows? If you can't bear to risk a phone to an open OS, why on earth would you even contemplate risking a whole PC? Think of the damage that might be done!
With Symbian I can be sure that a prog cannot send a premium SMS without me knowing. With WM anything goes. I bet you must be those who always click OK without blinking when an dialog box popup in your browser whether you want to install ActiveX control.
I think that quote just sums up how wrongheaded your attitude is, to be honest. You're accusing me of being blase about security (clicking OK without blinking) when in fact it's me arguing the simple point that you should take care over what software you install, and you believing that S60 can protect you from anything!
maybe you want to provide a link on your "freeware" that can do what dogmann posted.
It's all out there - for starters try a google for WMWifiRouter for the wifi access point, although it's possible to do the same with just registry tweaks, if you know what you're doing.
Posted by aksd
@Marc,
I'm afraid its your logic thats flawed or you still have'nt fully understood what we're debating here. We're debating about OS capabilities not about the capabilities of their implementations.
I have mentioned that WM is'nt for everyone nor will it ever be, and I dont think an end user such as yourself can ever understand why the hardcore programming enthusiasts prefer WM, although the programming enthusiasts can understand the end user, else you would'nt hae S60 now would you.
I have repeatadly mentioned each to his/her own, decide your purchase depending on your induvidual needs, that does'nt make another product inferior in anyway. And like I told mib if you decide to buy a phone depending solely on how popular it is on the market, your logic is completely flawed.
You're joking right, please implement C# on your S60, or write me an app or get some one to write me an app using restricted APIs which are totally in the open on WM, you dont need written proof for that. Most people in the know, no all people in the know accept that WM is more programmer freindly, it really des'nt matter wheather or not you accept this fact, not going to change anything, WM is and will be more powerful of the two OSs from a programmers point of view in the near future, but less powerful in the end users point of view(till decent hardware is released to fully implement WM).
and one more , I'd very much appreciate if you used my handle "aksd" rather than "askd". Thank you.
_________________
Regards,
Akshay
http://www.flickr.com/photos/akshaydashrath/
[ This Message was edited by: aksd on 2008-03-26 14:56 ]
Posted by mib1800
On 2008-03-26 15:09:58, aksd wrote:
@mib
here you go: http://www.freewarepocketpc.net/ppc-download-isecretary-v4-3.html
I have some inkling that you will post this app.
I hope you know this is a half-a** app. This just illustrate sufficiently why WM is behind Symbian in this aspect. You can clearly see that an app cannot take control of a call because there is no API support unlike symbian. Some comment:-
I mean the greeting is played on the speaker so that it is audiable to the caller. If that is so , then this is really dumb..
and just like everyone else my message was recorded and played on my own phone speaker... how dumb!
Yeah, what's the point of such answering machine app.
Posted by aksd
On 2008-03-26 15:55:40, mib1800 wrote:
On 2008-03-26 15:09:58, aksd wrote:
@mib
here you go: http://www.freewarepocketpc.net/ppc-download-isecretary-v4-3.html
I have some inkling that you will post this app.
I hope you know this is a half-a** app. This just illustrate sufficiently why WM is behind Symbian in this aspect. You can clearly see that an app cannot take control of a call because there is no API support unlike symbian. Some comment:-
I mean the greeting is played on the speaker so that it is audiable to the caller. If that is so , then this is really dumb..
and just like everyone else my message was recorded and played on my own phone speaker... how dumb!
Yeah, what's the point of such answering machine app.
LOL! I knew you were expecting this, so reply is ready
.
The sound through speaker is hardware implementation issue on many HTC phones such as very sadly the TyTn2 and Crusie etc.., works fine on the Touch and Asus phones and a few others.
Posted by mib1800
@max_wedge:
write me an app or get some one to write me an app using restricted APIs which are totally in the open on WM, you dont need written proof for that.
There are only very few restricted APIs mostly for critical device level access. For example the format drive function or maybe to shutdown the radio. I think for most practical purpose you dont need these APIs (unless of course you are a hacker)
The GIGABYTE G-smart for example, does have answering machine software.
I have seen an O2 Stealth having an answering m/c but this one is built totally outside of WM (like a plug-in app to WM). So you can forget about building a integrated call mananagement app (like the example app I gave on S60) because it is totally not supported.
@aksd
The biggest "danger" anyone faces from most of these "abusive" applications is the need to remove it.
Only if you have the chance.
Sometimes the damage is done when the app is run. So the question is as a end-users, why should we put up with this?
boinng
You're accusing me of being blase about security
Sorry. I think I overstepped here. To non-geek general end-users I was wondering whether the trade-off of not having an app certified but with the capability of unprotected OS is justifiable or not.
Yes, you can be cautious but like I say this is no guarantee with reputable apps as there is no distinction between dangerous APIs or otherwise. There is always pros and cons.
Posted by Dogmann
@askd
Maybe for programers WM is the dog's dangly bits but they surely make up a a very small percentage of users don't they.
As for going and writing you an app or having anyone do that for why should i need to when i can find anything i want for my device to do it already with out the need or inconvenience to have to bother either writing it myself or getting it done.
But you know what your right WM is the most powerful and advanced OS on the planet and SE make the best and most reliable handsets and the X1 will sell millions and dominate the whole smartphone world NOT.
Marc
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Honoured to have won BEST DEBATER
[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2008-03-26 18:12 ]
Posted by aksd
@mib
You've put up a very good technical based argument so far and countered every WM feature I have mentioned with an S60 one, its been a pleasure debating with you
, and it would be naive of me to say I have'nt learnt something from our debates, and we can go on and on with me saying the call recorder works on some handsets and this works on others, WM is installed on far too many different platforms for us to be able to generalize about the implementation.
Yes WM have a few lacking APIs but workarounds have been figured out, Symbian have far more restrecited API especially with memory management which is a set back imo(read soemting about it a long time ago, during ym M600i days), and tiny niggling things such as unable to set up a cache(as far as I know) or a swap like I do on my RoKR E6.
We can agree that each platfrom is unique in its own way catering to different types of users. WM being a lot more programmer powerful, like Linux is more programmer powerful than Windows. The more openeness leads to a lot more work on the platform. It seems some of the memebers here consider features as OS power whcih it definately is'nt.
I'm thinking lets call the debate quits
, but if you'd like to go on I'm game, but eventually we are going to start repeating ourselves.
But phones aside, dont you think when you pay for a device you'd like to install any type of software on it and not what the manufacturer controls, its like democracy and communism
. I'm generally for democracy but I dont have issues with communism(if you're chinese, russian or from some other communist nation ) Each to his own.
@ Dogmann
Your posts amuse me(I will ignore the sarcasm in your post as that actually makes your post quite usless like most of your posts in this thread, mindless arguing without much based on any real understand of an OS, which is what we're talking about.). You somehow relate a technical discussion into a marketing one, one which I have not bothered to talk about except in my intial posts, never did I say it will become a worldwide success, it will experince relative success in the WM world is what I have mentioned and it will happen. I never said it is the most advanced, please do not make mi-informed statements it just brings out how "fanboyish" you are,. SE too do not interst me, DO NOT make me look like a fanboy as I am not one, which most of my posts prove. it is just that I like keeping things in a blanaced point of view, not favouring any OS or manufacturer something that you seem incapable of.
_________________
Regards,
Akshay
http://www.flickr.com/photos/akshaydashrath/
[ This Message was edited by: aksd on 2008-03-26 18:15 ]
[ This Message was edited by: aksd on 2008-03-26 18:16 ]
Posted by Dogmann
@askd
You missed out IMO as that is all your views are as you really don't know that i am a fan of only one OS or manufacturer because as it happens I'm not.
I buy what suits my needs and offers me the best value for my money when i purchase a new device. After 20 odd years of using mainly Ericsson and SE devices only because the M600 was so bad did i feel the need to look elsewhere and have only been using S60 since June 2006.
I have also in that time tried using a TyTN but found i just didn't like it, who knows depending on what new devices come out i may even find myself using an Android device or even the new Garmin Nuvi phone that actually looks a lot like the P9 series but with a 3.5" Touchscreen and it appears no Keyboard.
So please don't tell me what i think as clearly you don't have a clue.
Marc
_________________
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Dogmanns Nokia E90 Blog @ http://dogmann.vox.com/
Honoured to have won BEST DEBATER
[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2008-03-26 20:53 ]
Posted by BobaFett
here are some wm 6.1 screenshots
http://www.esato.com/board/viewtopic.php?topic=167516
Posted by max_wedge
On 2008-03-26 19:01:54, Dogmann wrote:
But you know what your right WM is the most powerful and advanced OS on the planet and SE make the best and most reliable handsets and the X1 will sell millions and dominate the whole smartphone world NOT.
I hate to step in on someone else's argument, but I never read aksd anywhere saying he thinks SE make the best handsets or that X1 will dominate the world market. This is something you are ASSUMING simply because aksd is arguing some of the benefits of the WM platform.
Please, your title as Best Debater is a joke if you persist on drawing such weak assumptions. Let's keep this thread interesting and not argumentative? So far we've been having a good old time and it would be a shame to descend into recriminations.
We can argue points of logic without making baseless assumptions about fanboyism that just inflame matters.
Posted by max_wedge
On 2008-03-26 23:27:49, BobaFett wrote:
here are some wm 6.1 screenshots
http://www.esato.com/board/viewtopic.php?topic=167516
Thank you boba, let's get on with this thread before it's locked
Those screenshots seem top show a more finger friendly interface in WM6.1. This will give some credence to the X1 panels interface. Once you dig down into Windows proper you won't have to pull out the stylus so much.
Posted by aksd
On 2008-03-27 02:38:55, max_wedge wrote:
On 2008-03-26 23:27:49, BobaFett wrote:
here are some wm 6.1 screenshots
http://www.esato.com/board/viewtopic.php?topic=167516
Thank you boba, let's get on with this thread before it's locked
Those screenshots seem top show a more finger friendly interface in WM6.1. This will give some credence to the X1 panels interface. Once you dig down into Windows proper you won't have to pull out the stylus so much.
Not to worry, I'm not going to bother replying to his pointless aggrivating comments
. Would'nt want the thread to get locked.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but that interface is only for the smartphone edition
. The Professional edition which is to be used in the X1 has an identical UI to that of WM6.0 except with a few more apps. I have no idea why the wanted to revamp the smartphone UI and not the touch screen one which is aimed at the higher end of the market.
_________________
Regards,
Akshay
http://www.flickr.com/photos/akshaydashrath/
[ This Message was edited by: aksd on 2008-03-27 02:04 ]
Posted by max_wedge
I'm not sure, but imho the smartphone UI does need touching up.
The icons in the various screens look bigger which would suit a touchscreen just as well for finger input though. It would be good to have a "classic" option - to turn of WM6.1 UI enhancements, ala the setting in Windows XP that turns off the XP gloss and gives you an Interface identical to Win2k.
One of the disadvantages in terms of touch UI in the 3rd party finger touch shells, for example PointUI, is it's not really a shell but just a fancy third part menu system. It's good but breaks down as soon as you open a WM program or OS utility.
Maybe TouchFLO is a more complete shell replacement, has anyone tried it?
And I wonder if there is any chance X1 will feature it underneath the Panels main screen (if that is, it's a full shell)?
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[ This Message was edited by: max_wedge on 2008-03-27 04:48 ]
Posted by BoyBawang
The best Analogy I learned from aksd
Windows Mobile = Democracy
Symbian = Communism
Posted by max_wedge
Posted by iqtidar
CAN WE STOP THIS WM CRAP AND CONTINUE DISCUSSING THE X1 PLEASE?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
Posted by anonymuser
On 2008-03-27 10:50:05, iqtidar wrote:
CAN WE STOP THIS WM CRAP AND CONTINUE DISCUSSING THE X1 PLEASE?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
The X1 is Windows Mobile, crap or not (I say not). Better get used to it.
Posted by aksd
On 2008-03-27 07:31:34, BoyBawang wrote:
The best Analogy I learned from aksd
Windows Mobile = Democracy
Symbian = Communism
LOL! now that sounds quite stupid does'nt it
. I compared the two as Symbian restricts your freedom, not a perfect comparison though, but it does seem like Symbian tells us whats good for us and whats not. Freedom is when its up to us to decide whats good for us and whats not .
Also after several lenghty posts, is that all you've learnt
, now I'm disappointed, what a waste of time those lengthy posts were
On 2008-03-27 05:47:28, max_wedge wrote:
One of the disadvantages in terms of touch UI in the 3rd party finger touch shells, for example PointUI, is it's not really a shell but just a fancy third part menu system. It's good but breaks down as soon as you open a WM program or OS utility.
Maybe TouchFLO is a more complete shell replacement, has anyone tried it?
And I wonder if there is any chance X1 will feature it underneath the Panels main screen (if that is, it's a full shell)?
[ This Message was edited by: max_wedge on 2008-03-27 04:48 ]
Max,
Yes PointUI and the others are just applications, but I've written a tiny script which returns to the Point UI screen if you by chance go to the today screen, I hope you get what I mena, so when the WM today screen appears it is automatically replaced with the Point UI today screen.
TouchFLo is not a shell replacemnt, its just a enhanced scrolling function, if you place your finger on the screen and push up it automatically scrolls, no change in the UI of the phone. You can find a consumer verison of this here http://www.ftouchsl.com/
I think the X1 will have TouchFlo but nothing more than that, you know what a pain it is to modify bits of the shell, the SDK would need reworking then
if you want new apps to replicate this change.
Regards,
Akshay
[ This Message was edited by: aksd on 2008-03-27 10:37 ]
Posted by iqtidar
On 2008-03-27 11:03:25, Boinng wrote:
On 2008-03-27 10:50:05, iqtidar wrote:
CAN WE STOP THIS WM CRAP AND CONTINUE DISCUSSING THE X1 PLEASE?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
The X1 is Windows Mobile, crap or not (I say not). Better get used to it.
u see, u dont understand. i was saying can we stop talking bout windows mobile. didnt call it crap. crap refers to windows mobile vs symbian discussion. and continue with x1.
Posted by mib1800
I am just wondering whether HTC Cruise will give the X1 a run for its moeny.
Cruise is available now and there is no need to wait for eons (in mobile time). Would the cruise be a more viable option if you are looking for a WM (provided a keyboard is not critical). Cruise QVGA screen maybe a downer but on the flipside it will have no problem running 3rd party apps. X1 WVGA screen may pose a problem and what's the point of a WM 3rd party apps cannot run.
Personally, I think the Cruise looks nicer than X1. From gsmarena.com review the cam is comparable to K800 and it records video at mpeg4 QVGA 30fps. I doubt X1 vga 30fps 3gpp video rec will be much better than cruise.
So may I ask those waiting for X1, is it not more prudent to get the Cruise now instead. And you will definitely save a bundle of money at the same time.
Posted by aksd
@mib
No it wont, the TOuch Crusie is another of HTC's crippled series, no 3D drivers.
The reason the X1 seems a good buy is because of the bigger screen, the 3D drivers and an updated processor. THe Crusie lacks all this, its identical to the TyTn2 except for the keypad and the Cruise has a Radio.
In my opinion with the X1 announced it would'nt be very logical to buy the Cruise unless you're not interested in a power device.
Posted by mib1800
if X1 can have the 3d drivers, would'nt the cruise also have them in the updates? In terms of area, I think the X1 screen is only a bit bigger but of course resolution is another thing.
I assume by the time X1 comes out, Cruise maybe just 1/2 the price of X1 which would make it a more compelling buy. The only "real " spec advantage of the X1 is the WVGA screen.
Posted by aksd
HTC have announced they wont be releasing the drivers. So both devices target a bit different type of buyer. If the camera in the X1 is a SE one it should be far better than the HTC one thats quite pointless, no LED as well and whites are burnt out completely.
If somebody wants a powerful WM phone they'd got for the X1 and if they wanted a WM phone with reasonable specs they;d go Cruise.
Posted by mib1800
On 2008-03-27 17:33:56, aksd wrote:
HTC have announced they wont be releasing the drivers. So both devices target a bit different type of buyer. If the camera in the X1 is a SE one it should be far better than the HTC one thats quite pointless, no LED as well and whites are burnt out completely.
If that is true, then it is too bad. But maybe the lawsuit will force them to release the drivers. Certainly in the next update of this model, the drivers should be there. From gsmarena, they said the Cruise cam is as good as K800. That count for something. Anyway I would not bet on SE cam anymore as it has gone downhill since K800.
If somebody wants a powerful WM phone they'd got for the X1 and if they wanted a WM phone with reasonable specs they;d go Cruise.
Depends. Just have to wait and see how ridiculous the price of X1 will be. Another factor in HTC advantage is that the devices are pretty stable. Just hope SE dont destabilise the WM OS (or make it even more difficult to use) by being too ambitious incorporating all the not-that-useful X1 eye-candy panel stuff. (Given SE track history of UIQ3 UI design blunders, there is a very real danger of that)
btw: as a side note. You know Symbian has been "jail-broken". I think before long you can "tweak" the OS as much as you like like WM.
[ This Message was edited by: mib1800 on 2008-03-28 02:52 ]
Posted by aksd
There is not lawsuit, nobody is pursuing it. Listen mib, I own the TyTn2, and I was taking part in the lawsuit, its all over the net about HTC not releasing the drivers, they said they have a software solution but that wont affect video layback, they just might initialize QTV which coreplayer already does. No drivers pure and simple unless somebod pulls it out of the X1 or the Sirius.
I've owned the K790, and its far far superior to the HTC, the HTC sensor is small, and theres no LED plus oncelight goes low the cam switches to auto night mode where you get like 3-4 fps(you can check fps with the HTC cam) and shoting becomes difficult. The capera is superior to the K790 only where colour reproduction is concerned.
Lets not go into this again, I;ve posted about this page 88 and later.
I posted the jalibroken news on esato. But I thought you'd be disappointed about it being jailbroken, you said that securtiy was really important and now thats been compromised
. If you'd like to continue discussion about this you can contact me via PM or e-mail, lets not push this thread off topic anymore.
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[ This Message was edited by: aksd on 2008-03-28 03:00 ]
Posted by razec
@mib1800:
From gsmarena, they said the Cruise cam is as good as K800. That count for something. Anyway I would not bet on SE cam anymore as it has gone downhill since K800.
^^
wierd, this is what i read from the review
quote from gsmarena's HTC Touch Cruise Review:
As you will notice, the image quality is not really on par with the best 3 megapixel cameraphones such as the Sony Ericsson K800, for example. The images suffer in terms of dynamic range. The colors are spot-on on most occasions and the macros come out just fine thanks to the auto focus.
even the sample pics indicates it's mediocrity compared to K800/K810
camera review:
http://www.gsmarena.com/htc_touch_cruise-review-211p5.php
Posted by max_wedge
I am REALLY hoping X1 has a decent cam, if not it's all a bit pointless really
Either a Sony mobile cam module, or just something better than the usually HTC fair. My HW6900 has a 1.3.2MP cam but the quality is barely better than a T610. Once you resize the image to get rid of the really bad graininess you'd have about the same res pics as T610
If X1 has usual crappy HTC cam then I WON'T be buying an X1.
Posted by mib1800
@razec
You are right. I really have to brush up on speed reading skill.
Let's just hope the X1 cam is not the same module as the cruise. ;
[ This Message was edited by: mib1800 on 2008-03-28 05:35 ]
Posted by aksd
Max,
I think the module will be SE, maybe a carry over from the T650 or K800. Now the camera software and such will most probably be written by SE(or superivsed by SE and written by HTC), seeing how things are done in the WM world. ANd since its got touch focus and stuff which is very SE like I'm counting on the cam as well being manufactured by them.
If not, the next P series looks promising expecially now that we can access system folders
.
Posted by max_wedge
Yes, I tend to agree with your line of thinking. Or maybe just wishful thinking
re: P series, so can now access system folders? This is cool indeed. No need to hack anymore
Is this a symbian thing or UIQ?
@mib, I think you do need to brush up on your speed reading skills, esp. since I think that reply was intended for razec (it was he who corrected you about Cruise camera review)
Posted by BobaFett
but how u wanna make pix with it? according the form factor, its not a really cam focused device ( just look at e90, same opinion to it aswell ). next to it, imo a 2 mp cam ( maybe 3.2 max ) with af is what xperia will offer.
Posted by aksd
The E90 is in reality a bit different when it comes to daily use. Its bulkier and bigger making it a bit difficult to handle when comapred to X1, the X1 will be like a candybar once its slid in. No issues when it come to form factor. Although its not a dedicated camera phone it will do its job.
The X1 has a 3.2Mpx cam not a 2 Mpx.
@max
Yes wishful thinking, but logically I dont think SE would want to tarnish their image using a camera sourced from HTC, althoug in todays cellphone world wher themanufacturer want to make as much money from the end user who know?
Its actually been hacked and its a SYmbian thing, no need to sign programs as well. Looks like WM now will have competition on the developer front as well, if this isse int fixed in 9.3 and greater.
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[ This Message was edited by: aksd on 2008-03-28 06:05 ]
Posted by max_wedge
I'll be happy if it's a 3.2MP AF the same quality as K800.
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[ This Message was edited by: max_wedge on 2008-03-28 06:14 ]
Posted by aksd
SOmething of interest for the Linux-Android lovers here, even before the reelase of the X1
.
An Android kernel for the MSM7200A was found quite a while ago, that means we can have dual operating systems on our X1s(lol extremely optimisitic as it has'nt even been released yet) , wont work on the Kaiser or Cruise as its MSM7200.
Link: http://fandroid.net/content/a[....]nd-android-htc-kaiser-imminent
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[ This Message was edited by: aksd on 2008-03-28 06:15 ]
Posted by Dogmann
@askd
Actually the E90 is really easy to get on with and acts exactly the same as a normal phone when that's all you want to do as closed it has the same shape and functions as a phone no need to do anything to make or receive calls or any other phone functions. Just when you want to make use of the 4" screen and full QWERTY you flip it open simile really and gives a user experience that is hard o be beaten as you get full web pages with no side scrolling needed. A great view for Calendar ,E-Mails, Documents, PDF's and for watching Films or TV Shows or even your pictures.
I for one much prefer it's solid feel of being a flip rather than a slide and it also seems to have more keys than the X1 keyboard to. Not of course forgetting just how long it has been available and used as opposed to coming later this year and is just about to get a new update very soon that will bring both Flash Lite 3.0 Web Runtime Engine and of course Demand Paging that will enhance it's performance and functionality further.
Not forgetting that now Symbian has been cracked for full access and no longer needs signing it s once again an open system so may see some interesting apps start appearing that making use of this, not sure any will appeal to me but may do to some.
Marc
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[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2008-03-28 06:17 ]
Posted by aksd
@Marc,
Will take your word for that(never used an E90) and I agree that a flip feels more solid than a slide. Although after using the TyTn2 for a while which is a tad lighter than the E90 but heavy nontheless I'm looking forward to using the X1. I've heard the screen is very nice to work on as well.
Symbian being cracked pushes all the security down the drain though(for the phone thats been jailbroken). You will see a lot more apps, porting of apps, and such, especially with UIQ, you can put the Walkman media player on the P1i and stuff like that.
It seems like we can have dual boots on the X1 as the latest version of Andoid running kernel version 2.6.24 has just been released a few hours agon on the android development section. This is extremely good news for potential X1 users as you can have dual OS running on the phone, should spice up things now, I'm actually getting excited now
, Symbian getting hacked, Android on the X1, the future looks bright(not Orange , sorry poor joke )
Actually WM is getting Flashlite 3.0 as well as Silverlight(which Symbian is getting as well).
Demand paging is'nt all that fancy, a fancy term forsomething other OSs have been doing for quite a while, from the Motorola EZX platform which was released in 2001 to WM(Setting up a cache)
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Akshay
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[ This Message was edited by: aksd on 2008-03-28 06:27 ]
Posted by anonymuser
On 2008-03-28 03:50:40, mib1800 wrote:
btw: as a side note. You know Symbian has been "jail-broken". I think before long you can "tweak" the OS as much as you like like WM.
Yep, and just look at how much unbridled excitement that's caused - so many people merrily tweaking their phones with a rather dubious hack, innocently disabling all their security and leaving themselves open to god knows what. Seems like Symbian was never secure as all that anyway, if just one app is all is takes to bring down the walls, eh? The only real difference between WM and Symbian is that WM owners are generally more aware of what they're doing...
Posted by Muhammad-Oli
Regarding camera, if they can put a Sony battery in it (and get HTC to make a correct sized slot for it), then they can put a Sony camera in it (and get HTC to fit it).
Posted by Dogmann
Hi all
Actually the reports of Symbian S60 being jail broken or left completely open are some what of an exaggeration as the reality it now appears it is not even be close to this.
Whilst it is now possible to access the system files and folders each device has to be cracked separately and only lasts till the phone is restarted or rebooted before needing to be applied again. So really only those that want there device hacked and open and want to mess a round in the file system and folders can do so leaving the rest of us that have no interest no more vulnerable than we were before this announcement.
Marc
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Honoured to have won BEST DEBATER
[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2008-03-28 15:52 ]
Posted by anonymuser
Marc, sorry but I think you're missing the real implication here - if it's possible for an app (appTRK.sys in this case) to undo the security and open access to those system files, then it's possible for any malicious software to do the same thing. Like the average S60 owner, you'll be thinking you're quite safe from all this stuff because you haven't "jailbroken" your phone, when in fact that innocent little card game you downloaded the other day has already done it for you and installed who knows what on your C: drive, all in the same foul swoop.
The age of innocence is over Symbian users.
[ This Message was edited by: Boinng on 2008-03-28 16:17 ]
Posted by Dogmann
Hi Boinng
It really is not that easy to do and requires a user with a good amount of knowledge to even make it work and it is temporary not permanent so your suggestion is just not possible now even if it may be some time in the distant future.
As i have said currently it is only possible to achieve on one device at a time and even then requires a high level of knowledge and skill to achieve and once the phone is restarted or rebooted it is disabled and no longer possible without re doing the entire hack again.
Marc
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Honoured to have won BEST DEBATER
[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2008-03-28 16:19 ]
Posted by aksd
We're drifting off again now are'nt we
.
@Marc,
What Boinng is trying to say is if the end user can do so much, imagine what a programmer or hacker whos been in the industry for over 20-30 yrs can do now that a loop hole has been found.
Now if I wanted to attack the system what I;d do was write a tiny app that jailbreaks the phone, immediately register myself to auto startup without the end users knowledge so even after boot up it automatically starts up, after the start up, once its run I'll have my app jail break the phone once again, without the users knowledge and do whatever damage I want, delete system files etc.., now how WM prevents this is, when you have a corrupt system file it deletes this file and restores it automatically, I dont suppose Symbian would have this feature as they never expected you to access the system files in the first place. What I suggest you do is inform SYmbian about this, but then you'd be hated by Symbian hackers the world over
, but you end up protecting the end users interests which is whom SYmbian is targeted at anyway.
you might say user interaction is required, but what a user can do a programmer can replicate a program to eliminate user inputs if the inputs are the same every time around.
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Akshay
http://www.flickr.com/photos/akshaydashrath/
[ This Message was edited by: aksd on 2008-03-28 16:48 ]
[ This Message was edited by: aksd on 2008-03-28 16:48 ]
Posted by Dogmann
@askd and Boinng
Which part of my statement are you finding so hard to understand currently even those that want to can't make it Auto start other wise it would be a permanent hack which it isn't and the facts i've pointed out wouldn't be a problem. But if you feel you are smarter than the Symbian geeks that have got to this stage please feel free to educate them as to what they should do but some how i am sure if what you suggest could be done then they would know about it and do it. Now maybe some time in the future it will be possible but currently it just isn't so as i said currently there is nothing for most users to be concerned with as you need to be very proactive to make it happen. As no one is claiming possible what you are anywhere.
Actually to end this pointless discussion may i suggest you go and read
the thread here at Symbian Freak in the Modding section called Hack to Override Permissions as unfortunately we can't link to that site on this Forum.
Marc
Nokia E90,8GB SDHC, Fring, Tom Tom 6
Dogmanns Nokia E90 Blog @ http://dogmann.vox.com/
Honoured to have won BEST DEBATER
[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2008-03-28 18:16 ]