Posted by Raja
There is an article on 'Smape' about HTC's upcoming devices. It was a bit too technical and I was too bored to understand it. Maybe someone here can dissect it?
http://smape.com/en/news//28515.html
It has relevance to X1 because it discusses graphics chips and their potential.
[ This Message was edited by: Raja on 2008-03-20 14:33 ]
Posted by mobman
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that would seem to back up dogmans claims about it being a licencing issue.
Posted by bavlondon2
Also MR has posted a WM 6.1 review. In a nutshell there are no changes at all apart from SMS thread funtionality.
Posted by aksd
We'l basically the Qualcomm MSM 7200 processor is a system on chip in simple words its a single processor with many tiny processors in it doing different things. Its got 2 DSPs one for Audio one for calls, an application processor running at 400Mhz a processor for calls and stuff at 280Mhz ARM9 architecture, a GPS chipset, a 3D accelerator by ATi and interfaces for USB OTG, TV-Out etc..
Now for a manufacturer to buy this processor they buy the licence for each functionality seperately, they have to pay more to Qualcomm for more features they utilize in their products. What HTC did with the TyTn2 is they only purchased the basic requiremen processor, DSP etc.. leaving out the implementation for the 3D acceleration, USB OTG, TV out etc.. as at that point it may have seemed to them that the extra investment was'nt really necessary. Hence no VGA at 30fps and not TV out and no USB Host function.
Now after the TyTn2 owners Vs HTC scandal on the net a month ago seems like SE/HTC? have realized that things dont work that way anymore and have decided to implement the 3D drivers, this looks like a last minute descision as the orignal specs had no mention of 3D acceleration. The implemented drivers will allow better gaming and graphic rendering than the current OMAP 2 processor on the N95/N82/E90 or the freescale ones on several other Nokias and even the N96 with the SMT processor. BUT it is'nt superior to the next gen OMAP 3 processors, although the SE X1 processor is updated (due to the Broadcomm lawsuit?) to the MSM 7200 A from the MSM7200 adding 120Mhz to the oringal 400 making it 520Mhz. BUT seems like SE have decided not to give us TV-Out or USB OTG which would have made it perfect
.
The actual competition to the OMAP 3 processor is the QUalcomm MSM 7850 or the Nvidia 2500 or the Qualcomm Snapdragon/scorpion all which are superior to the OMAP 3 processor, but these we'd see mid 2009 to earl 2010.
Posted by mobman
wow - i feel like i just learned a hell of alot about the processor chip world!
do you think it would ever be possible for the end user to buy the licences for the chip functions themselves? obviously it would be better the have all features straight away but i dont mind the way archos supply their units cheep and then let the customer buy the extra functions they want.
[ This Message was edited by: mobman on 2008-03-21 18:59 ]
Posted by hahaha112
why doesn't X1 have 5 mp cam, Accelerometer, 16 gig with 8 gig expansion, fast port and 3.5 jack.
Posted by bavlondon2
On 2008-03-21 18:32:09, aksd wrote:
Now after the TyTn2 owners Vs HTC scandal on the net a month ago seems like SE/HTC? have realized that things dont work that way anymore and have decided to implement the 3D drivers, this looks like a last minute descision as the orignal specs had no mention of 3D acceleration.
Are you 100% sure about this or is it a theory? Great news if its genuine.
Posted by Dogmann
@askd
Out of interest why do you claim that those processors are going to superior to the OMAP3 chip? on what basis do you make that conclusion. As far as i am aware no one but those fortunate to of had test units can even comment on just how good any of these processors are although i know the OMAP3 Chip was being shown last year at an S60 event in Madrid and was fully booting a system in 5 seconds approximately which i consider pretty impressive. I will of course reserve judgment until i see all of these chips in action in various devices but for now the OMAP3 chip is my clear favorite especially as it destined for Symbian S60.
Marc
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[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2008-03-21 22:17 ]
Posted by razec
On 2008-03-21 22:39:19, hahaha112 wrote:
why doesn't X1 have 5 mp cam, Accelerometer, 16 gig with 8 gig expansion, fast port and 3.5 jack.
it has 3.5mm jack!
@askd:
So the 3D accelerator responsible for X1's VGA video is the ATi imageon GPU. do you know what type does that uses? if i were asked i strongly believe it's using the top of the line M100 series as this is cuurently the only ATi video chip that is capable of enabling the video recorder to record at VGA @ 30Fps video. so if i was right i can really say SE/HTC is even able to integrate 12megapixel camera on it
Posted by aksd
@mobman
Buying the licence is bl***y expensive
@bavlondon2
I'm sure of it as per the whitepaper, the 3D drivers have been fully implemented. VGA at 30fps is also possible only with full implementation of the 3D drivers, this I know as I'm a HTC TyTn2 owner without the 3D drivers lol.
@Dogmann
I read a comparison on one of the qualcomm documents, the Snapdragon/Scorpion processor has the following specs when comapred to the Omap 3
Scorpion(Qualcomm):
Speed: 1Ghz(maximum)
Instruction Set: 128kb(this is really good, the procssor would work much faster), currently we're working on 16kb and 32kb instruction sets in our processors.
Performance: 2100DIMPS
OMAP3:
Speed: 550Mhz(this is not the deciding factor)
Instruction set: 64bit(this would make the processor hell of a lot slower, than the scorpion as it has far fewer instructions to work with but faster than the current gen Qualcomm)
Performance: 1200DIMPS
So on paper the next gen qualcomm trumps the OMAP3. But it all depends on how much of it is implemented on the phones, if it sfuly implemented the OMAP3 wont hold a candle next to it. We need to wait and watch,b ut this tech would reach us early to mid 2009 along with the Nvidia 2500, on my-symbian you stated that 3D eyecandy etc.. is not a concern of yours, but better graphic implementation would result is less load on the processor while rendering images or icons etc on the screen hence making overall usage a better experience and increasing battery life as the processor would'nt be taxed as much.
@razec
I remember reading its based on the ATI 2300 but dont quote me on that I'm not sure, but will get back to you on this.
Reagrds,
Akshay
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[ This Message was edited by: aksd on 2008-03-22 02:34 ]
Posted by razec
On 2008-03-22 03:26:45, aksd wrote:
@razec
I remember reading its based on the ATI 2300 but dont quote me on that I'm not sure, but will get back to you on this.
Reagrds,
Akshay
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[ This Message was edited by: aksd on 2008-03-22 02:34 ]
The theory that ATi 2300 does not support more than 2mp camera resolution simply axes that bud
and 2300 chip is now very old, and it can't do VGA @ 30Fps video that's why Qualcomm has to use a faster/newer GPU to make VGA encoding possible. but anyway thanks for your info-rich posts 
btw ATi M100 is formerly known as 2294/2298 series - the top of the line series for ATi graphics CPUs
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[ This Message was edited by: razec on 2008-03-22 03:08 ]
Posted by mario2004
@Aksd Where can I see the power consumption of that thing? A 1Ghz processor will definitely need some hefty cooling even by pc/laptop standards where space is not so much of a issue
Imagine - cell phone with build in fan for the ladies to dry their nail polish
The aux power supply can be carried comfortably in the superbly styled, SE purse.
Posted by aksd
@razec,
My apologies on the error then, I have not researched much into the Ati chip in the Qualcomm, but strangely enough theres nothing mentioned in the Qualcomm MSM7200 product pdf(which is no longer available online for some reason) about specific details on the imageon architecture used. You must remember theres no seperate ati chip, just the built in architecture. And as you say its most logical(After reading around a bit
) that the Qualcomm employs an architecture similar to the M100.
@mario
They were available on the site. But 1Ghz RISC(reduced instruction) is'nt the same as 1Ghz on the comp, totally different ball game. Much lower power consumption.
Posted by Dogmann
Hi askd
You do realize that is not the complete specification for the series 3 chip's but only the baseline as the chips will range between 500mhz to 1ghz and until they are actually released no one really knows the full spec's.
Also has anyone else noticed that video recording and Playback is only 30fps in 3gp and only 15fps in H.264 and as we know h.264 offers a much better quality, unless of course you buy a US version and then h.264 is not there at all.
Sorry but unlike some of you i just can not get excited by the 9 panels experience really making that much of a difference whilst it may be nice i just can't see it being a killer application. I also wonder just how many like Max will disable this interface and just return to the WM6 interface for practicality purposes.
But it will be interesting to see just what it has to compete with by the time it is released and how it will fair if it is more expensive then similar units from other manufactures.
Marc
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[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2008-03-22 13:03 ]
Posted by aksd
On 2008-03-22 14:03:18, Dogmann wrote:
Hi askd
You do realize that is not the complete specification for the series 3 chip's but only the baseline as the chips will range between 500mhz to 1ghz and until they are actually released no one really knows the full spec's.
Also has anyone else noticed that video recording and Playback is only 30fps in 3gp and only 15fps in H.264 and as we know h.264 offers a much better quality, unless of course you buy a US version and then h.264 is not there at all.
Sorry but unlike some of you i just can not get excited by the 9 panels experience really making that much of a difference whilst it may be nice i just can't see it being a killer application. I also wonder just how many like Max will disable this interface and just return to the WM6 interface for practicality purposes.
But it will be interesting to see just what it has to compete with by the time it is released and how it will fair if it is more expensive then similar units from other manufactures.
Marc
[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2008-03-22 13:03 ]
Of course Marc, its incomplete, and I see your point but if you are into processors or programming you'd know that the lack of instruction set on its own would make it a tad slower as well as the drop in Mhz, of course the final implementation is a big question mark but as it stands(pre-release basic specs ONLY) the Qualcomm is better wheather you'd like to accept the fact or not, and this would remain a big question mark even after their release unless two similar devices running the same OS were to use both the processors, your boot up time and overall performance is dependant on several factors such as how well optimized the OS is for a particular processor, the screen resolution and several other factors that if I were to elaborate would make this post terribly boring
.
Your point o nthe 9 panel is well founded, its not an OS replacement but an app launcher several similar apps are already available to the WM user such as SPB modile shell and PointUI, so this is basically a marketing gimmick and would'nt make the OS anymore finger friendly that it already is.
WE'll I doubt many would disable it as its nice eye candy to show off and use occassionaly.
We all know that its going to be ridiculously expensive
, but people are going to buy it as its an SE, its going to be well built(hopefully, knowing hTC it should be) and its got the 3D drivers, your going to see thousands of TyTn2 users and other WM buyers as well flocking to buy it contrary to what most say because bottom line most WM users being the techo geeks they are will want one(due to the 3D acceleration and well rounded specs, the only previous WM PDA with decent acceleration was the Dell Axim x51), then you're going to have the SE loyalists who are going to fall in love with it and open a brand new world of mass modding .
Whatever said and done what SE are doing I feel is right, I'm not a windows lover I've used almost every possible OS phone(linux being my frist prefernce) out on the market but I feel WM is one of the most misunderstood OSs out there and the X1 might be the phone to change peoples mindsets.
Regards,
Akshay
Posted by Dogmann
@askd
I agree with most of if not all of your conclusions especially about unless we get the same OS running the different processors it is virtually impossible to know which actually performs best in the real use.
But we know that Symbian is less processor intensive then WM and Michel over at My Symbian reported last year that at a Madrid event he witnessed a OMAP3 S60 Device boot in about 5 seconds which i find pretty impressive and suggests a huge leap in performance as expected from these chip's.
However WM is not the dominant Smart Phone OS and if the X1 is more expensive than WM devices from other manufactures i really can not share your optimism that all will flock to the X1. Except maybe the SE faithful but that number is smaller than it used to be as most are aware of SE's behavior towards it's users, so i really don't think that number will be anywhere near large enough to make the X1 a huge success, but only time will tell. A lot will depend on just how expensive it is and just how good the other devices available by the time the X1 launches are. The second half of this Year promises to be interesting for those of us interested in Smart Phones.
Marc
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[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2008-03-22 13:50 ]
Posted by max_wedge
X1 may be more expensive than some of the lower end WM's, but high end WM's are in the highest price range of any class of phone available, so I don't expect X1 will be more expensive than equivalent WM's.
And if it has the video performance to best other WM's (remains to be seen whatother WM's are in the pipe line) then it should be a goer.
Posted by aksd
On 2008-03-22 14:50:38, Dogmann wrote:
@askd
But we know that Symbian is less processor intensive then WM and Michel over at My Symbian reported last year that at a Madrid event he witnessed a OMAP3 S60 Device boot in about 5 seconds which i find pretty impressive and suggests a huge leap in performance as expected from these chip's.
[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2008-03-22 13:50 ]
I was waiting for this
:D:D. We'll the thing is it really is'nt so much more processor intensive than Symbian as far as I know. If by processor intensive you mean it has a whole lot of crap running in the background, maybe, if you mean each app consumes more of the CPU, Yes of course if it has'nt been optimized for the architecture, this has been solved to an extent with SYmbian due to symbian signed(imo SYmbian has become so closed its almost not a smartphone in the truest sense of the word, but this is'nt a discussion on Symbain vs WM). On these counts you may be right, BUT you cant say it is so processor intensive that it makes a very big difference on day to day usage, this I beg to differ, small almost negilgeable difference yes, big one no.
I think I have mentioned earlier on my-symbian that I think the OMAP3 is a wonderful processor BUT it just is'nt as good as the fully implemented next generation Qualcomms. Let me make this a little more end user understandable, we can clear up a bit on this processor confusion.
CPU speed is not the end all in any benchmark, its just a rough comaprison between similar architecture devices, such as ARM is compared with ARM and x86 with x86, the cpu Mhz is nothing but the cycles per second, the amount of work done per cycle varies from CPU to CPU.
CPU performance is also is dependant on your cache and your instruction set, now your processor does not understand english commands but all it understands is addresses in the form of 0's and 1's if the cache is bigger you can have a lot more addresses in stored in the cache for the next instruction to get executed thus reducing the fetch time, our current generation processors have 16-32kb cache while the OMAP3 a 64kb cache and the Qualcomm a 128kb cache, this is one of the reason why the OMAP feels far superior to the current gen OMAP and this is why I think the qualcomm will be faster.
Also the instruction set is improtant, now the processor works on interrupts and several other instructions, the bigger the isntruction set the better, more instructions means better working of the processor the OMAP3 is 64kb RISC which is again double 3 times our current processors which makes such a big difference in daily use. But it would be wrong to assume that the OMAP3 will blow away the competition like the OMAP2 has done, most probably its going to get some very very stiff competion and might end up being the inferior processor, where specs are conecerened BUT not the final implementation.
I am not saying that the X1 will become mass market, but whatever sales it does have is good for WM(it gets a bit more public exposure), and since I'm currently using WM I'm happy as that means more programmers on board, more hacks to be done, more fun with the phone
. Regarding people not buying it because of the way SE and HTC treat the customers I think you might be a wee bit surprised at that because as consumers our memory for such incidents is very short term, there will of course be a few you have had terrible experineces and will be put off by SE for a long time to come, but many will return.
And from one smartphone lover to another
, wait for Android, I've been looking at the latest SDK and what I see is very pretty , from a user point of view as well as a programmer point of view, more programs( like WM) make the end user happier. Its like they've combined the best of the smartphone world and the non smartphone world, the OS due to the linux kernel is fast, its secure due to it being a hybrid JVM(looks powerful enough to seriously compete with SYmbian). The device to look out for at the moment is the HTC Dream possible May announcement.
I've gone a bit off topic and I apologise but I hope I've made a few processor related doubts clearer.
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[ This Message was edited by: aksd on 2008-03-22 14:20 ]
Posted by max_wedge
I agree with you on cpu speeds. AMD for example started off marketing their chips using numbers that equated to Intel chips even though their clock speed was 25-50% slower. They had a more efficient instruction set so could perform more instructions per clock cycle than intel. They also ran quite a bit hotter
Going even further back, Cyrix did the same thing. I remember my first 6 gen x86 CPU - it was a 150MHz Cyrix, badged as a P200, because it was as fast as an Intel 200MHz Pentium.
Posted by Dogmann
@askd
Also agreed here that processors speeds count for very little and in fact this supports my point WM uses higher processors speeds than Symbian devices need to achieve a better level of performance. That is what i meant by WM being more processor intensive it needs a faster processor and still doesn't achieve as good a performance.
I think enough of this speculation as all these things are still the best part of 6 months away so lets wait wait and see what happens and only then we will we know for sure whose estimations are right or not.
Marc
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[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2008-03-22 19:07 ]
Posted by max_wedge
On 2008-03-22 16:06:50, Dogmann wrote:
@askd
Also agreed here that processors speeds count for very little and in fact this supports my point WM uses higher processors speeds than Symbian devices need to achieve a better level of performance. That is what i meant by WM being ore processor intensive it needs a faster processor and still doesn't achieve as good a performance.
Yes, agreed, but as long as you don't measure the processor by MHz, but instead measure it by number of instructions per second, which is a more accurate indicator of processor speed.
Processor number of cycles per second is largely transparent to the OS, it's how much work that processer can handle in any given period.
Posted by aksd
On 2008-03-22 17:30:11, max_wedge wrote:
Yes, agreed, but as long as you don't measure the processor by MHz, but instead measure it by number of instructions per second, which is a more accurate indicator of processor speed.
Processor number of cycles per second is largely transparent to the OS, it's how much work that processer can handle in any given period.
Perfect
, and this can be done on cross platform if we have a cross platform benchmark to run the CPU thorugh its paces, I dont believe there is one at the moment though is there? JBenchmark is highly inaccurate as per my findings as the JVM interferes with the results.
Posted by bavlondon2
Whats the latest on release date? When can we expect the first handsets to be sent to reviewers?
Posted by aksd
The earliest I've heard is August, but personally I feel September-October is more like it. Reviewers getting it would depend on when Microsoft decides to announce WM6.1.
Posted by BoyBawang
I was waiting for this
:D:D. We'll the thing is it really is'nt so much more processor intensive than Symbian as far as I know. If by processor intensive you mean it has a whole lot of crap running in the background, maybe, if you mean each app consumes more of the CPU, Yes of course if it has'nt been optimized for the architecture, this has been solved to an extent with SYmbian due to symbian signed(imo SYmbian has become so closed its almost not a smartphone in the truest sense of the word, but this is'nt a discussion on Symbain vs WM). On these counts you may be right, BUT you cant say it is so processor intensive that it makes a very big difference on day to day usage, this I beg to differ, small almost negilgeable difference yes, big one no.
thanks for all the info aksd. I wan't your estimate about how faster is Symbian compared to WM.
Supposing we are to build a UIQ version of Xperia with all the fancy panels at the same level of performance of the WM version. How much should we underclock Xperias 528mhz for the UIQ version just enough to achive comparable performance with WM? 400mhz? or probably lower?
Posted by Dogmann
Hi all
Something else just occurred to me whilst posting in another thread and am interested to see what some of your views of this are.
We have been told that the X1 is going to be targeted at the corporate market as this where SE would like to make break through now obviously being in the UK i can only really talk about this market. But it has occurred to me that Voda, 02, T-Mobile and Orange all have their own branded versions of the TyTN2 currently and therefore don't sell the TyTN themselves.
So how likely is that they will be selling the X1? if they have there own branded similar versions. Also just how many corporates do you think buy there devices Sim Free as opposed to getting them free with their contracts, the same goes for how many ordinary users are going to buy this expensive device Sim Free.
All of the above only really struck me a short while ago and IMO could prove to be real stumbling block for the X1's success, i would be interested to hear what some of you think about this.
Marc
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[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2008-03-22 20:18 ]
Posted by mobman
Very good point but i think if the phone is marketed properly then it will be fine.
If the phone is successfully perceived as on "iphone beater" then i think the operators that haven't got the iphone will be kicking each other out the way to get the X1.
I would be surprised however if the X1 appeared on all the major networks but i expect it to be released on O2 and "3" at least.
Posted by Singapore_Air
The XPERIA X1 would be the driving force to move me back to the vile 3 network. I would prefer it on O2 though.
While reading this thread, I noticed that there were rumours of a P-series phone to be released soon. Any preliminary details or news or just stick to the X1?
Posted by bavlondon2
P5 is coming soon also but thats not even announced yet, check the other thread.
Also what makes you sure X1 will be taken up by 3? They had enough problems just trying to get a QTEK working properly I dont think it ever came out in the end.
I think X1 will sell ok but is too niche a phone as its WM. People in Europe are too used to S60/UIQ or dumbhones. It will be mainly the existing WM users and die hard SE fans that will go for the X1. By the time the X1 is out im sure other brands will have similar devices announced/release. For example look at the F480 or the new LG internet device. Also isnt the X1 suppposed to be ridiculously priced?
Posted by razec
@bavlondon
as a PPC device X1 is much cheaper than it's WM6.1 counterpart, Asus ZX1
the latter lacks the same dense display as with X1 as well
Posted by aksd
@BoyBawang,
You really cant tell if Symbian is going to be faster than WM or not and even IF WM is slower it'll be slower by less than a second, more like a few milli seconds hardly noticeable. Also since we are specualting that Symbian is faster theres no real proof as at this moment you dont have two identical devices running both OS present you really cant tell.
@Marc
The X1 is a Multimedia as well as Buisnes device and at tis realease is going to be a bit more powerful than the TyTn2, once the X1 releases there is really no point in anyone purchasing a TyTn2.
The carriers know this, and the number of complaints they've recieved about the TyTn2 will surely get them to consider selling the X1 instead. Then everybody is a winner, the carriers, SE and HTC.
The price is just speculation, WM as it is is over priced and it would marketing suicide if the phone was launched over 400 pounds sim free. My guess is launch price is around 400-500 and then an immediate drop to the 350 pound region.
Regards,
Akshay
Posted by mib1800
Knowing the way SE do business, it is very likely that X1 price will be way over the top on release. (well, there are a lot of diehard SE fans who are always willing to pay any price for something with an SE badge).
Posted by max_wedge
yes, but not me. I always wait before any new product is released to market. One; to see if any problems crop up, and two; for the price to come down
You are right SE are unshiftable little buggers on pricing. It's the Sony influence. For example even though you can get Sony MP3 players now for $80 for 2GB, you still can't buy the older ATRAC players (that don't even support mp3 drag and drop) for less than $130 for 1GB
I saw one in a WOW store, and tried to haggle the sales rep down (on the basis that the new models are better and cheaper - I wanted an atrac player for an ATRAC usb mini-system), which is usually possible on superceded models, but apparently Sony haven't dropped the retail price yet, so the store can't reduce the price without selling it way below cost.
Posted by BoyBawang
In my country, SEs pricing is more acceptable than Nokia brands. SEs flagship prices fall faster too. Maybe the slow 200mhz processor explains it. But with Xperias leap to 528mhz, plus being Windows Mobile and manufactured by another company HTC, pricing will never be the same again.....
Posted by mib1800
@max_wedge
yes, but not me. I always wait before any new product is released to market. One; to see if any problems crop up, and two; for the price to come down
yep. that is the most prudent advice you can give to SE fans.
SE phones tend have more bugs/problems and bigger price drop after the initial release compared to other brands. 
Posted by >500
On 2008-03-23 06:29:48, mib1800 wrote:
SE phones tend to have more bugs/problems and bigger price drop after the initial release '''compared to other brands'''
and you test 'every' phone on its release do you mib1800?
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be with you![ This Message was edited by: >500 on 2008-03-23 07:29 ]
Posted by max_wedge
On 2008-03-23 06:29:48, mib1800 wrote:
@max_wedge
yes, but not me. I always wait before any new product is released to market. One; to see if any problems crop up, and two; for the price to come down
yep. that is the most prudent advice you can give to SE fans.
SE phones tend have more bugs/problems and bigger price drop after the initial release compared to other brands.
I happily admit it. But it's not just SE but any manufacturer I apply this rule to.
Sure I wish SE improved their testing process. But all I ultimately care about SE is that they keep producing great phones. If 30% are complete crap I don't care, as long as the ones I do buy are good. So far, using this philosophy, I've never been let down by SE
Everyone thinks I'm a fanboy, but seriously, if I was wouldn't I be the one buying the newest and greatest first of the assembly line?
Posted by Dogmann
@askd
You are kidding me right you really think the X1 will be the only device with these sort of spec's by the time it launches? you don't think the next version of the TyTN will be released by then and all the Networks that run their branded versions will have them available?
@all
This is why i am now questioning just how are consumers going to buy the X1 as if the Networks have their own or similar variants they won't stock a direct competitor to their own product will they?
In which case that leaves only the Sim free route and will exclude it's target market of Businesses that like to get their device cheap or free with their contracts.
Now if SE is only really looking at the USA market they hardly have a market presence and in the US people are used t getting their devices with a contract even more. Also from what i have heard the Networks also customize and remove features they don't like to an even greater degree than in Europe and agin have their own branded version of products to.
I am just putting this out there and trying to understand where the sales of this device are going to come from as if it's just the SE loyal who will buy it Sim Free that really isn't any where near a large enough market even if it takes previous UIQ users.
Marc
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[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2008-03-23 09:56 ]
Posted by aksd
@Marc
The next TyTn2 wont be out for a while, the next big thing from HTC is the Omni which is a Universal replacement. Even if HTC do announce a TyTn2 successor the specs will be identical to the X1, and if the average consumer has to decide between an SE and HTC, he/she'd go with SE.
ASUS have already announced their coming phones and none of them compare to the TyTn2, ETEN have announced their line up as well and so have GiGabyte, they all have quite decent specced madels but nothing up there with the X1, except for the Gigabyte maybe but you know that Gigabyte hardly sells their phones on as large scale as HTC or SE.
Of course the market scene might be different in a few months, all we're doing is speculation.
No disrecpect meant toward you but you're looking at things from one persepctive and thats basically as a device geek where you'd research first and buy, but these kind of sales in places like India and CHina are very few, 2/10, the rest go for brand name, I've worked/known people in cellphone shops, service centers and research department and in India most of the sales(India is one of the largest markets for cellphones just behind china) are by un informed people who hardly even connect their phones to a computer buying an N95 becuase of it "5 Mpx" camera and they end up never transferring that pic to their comp. Its all about brand image. I'm sure theres a lot of it in the UK not everybody has the time or patience to visit forums, in todays worl people have money, they like something and they can afford to buy it, simple as that and they're not too bothered about its overall quality or how it compares in the market becuase they know in a matter of 6 months they'd change anyway.
As far as your question goes on the sales of the X1, I feel the carriers would pick it up, not sure as we dont have a similar system in India, but imo it would be stupid if they did'nt. The X1 will become the face of WM as microsoft are extremely excited about a major player entering the WM field, just what they were waiting for. You'd have idiots like me upgrading form a TyTn2 although its not really an upgrade
(if i can afford it), you'll have the hungry SE supports waiting for that "one" phone comparable to the N95 buying it, you'd have rather ill informed buisnessmen buying the X1 as its pocketable and an SE, just what many are waiting for. An in the WM world the X1 is going to outsell any of its competing devices for sure.
Every situation has many perspectives to it, to actually understand the X1's market niche you need to understand the current WM market, that is severly lacking in a multimedia phone.
The X1 targets several markets from Multimedia to the SE fanbase, to the buisnessman, to the WM geek, to the touchscreen geek. Its very complex and a brilliant move by SE depending as you say on the pricing.
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Akshay
http://www.flickr.com/photos/akshaydashrath/
[ This Message was edited by: aksd on 2008-03-23 10:39 ]
[ This Message was edited by: aksd on 2008-03-23 10:40 ]
Posted by mib1800
aksd:
An in the WM world the X1 is going to outsell any of its competing devices for sure.
This is a bold statement given that the X1 is made by HTC.
Posted by aksd
On 2008-03-23 12:23:25, mib1800 wrote:
aksd:
An in the WM world the X1 is going to outsell any of its competing devices for sure.
This is a bold statement given that the X1 is made by HTC.
Why is it bold,?the market its targeting is far larger than any WM device before it. So what if its made by HTC, you actually think SE make their other phones as well? or Nokia or Motorola? A lot of the production is out sourced(I was told this by a high up in Motorola Manufacturing, India). And we both know the people who've sworn wont buy HTC again most probably will buy another HTC as no other WM phone offers as complete a package as HTC does.
Posted by Dogmann
@askd
Everyone loves an optimist but sorry some of what you say is just not right first point is why is everyone saying the X1 is a multimedia powerhouse as reading the White paper shows video is only 30fps VGA in Mp4 h.263 and WM in the all important h.264 it drops to 15fps and h.264 will not be in the US models at all so just what is so brilliant? am i missing something?
Now as for the Networks will love this device and run it instead of their branded HTC devices i seriously doubt it as that makes no sense for them at all.
Also WM is not the de-facto dominant standard for smart phones far from it and sorry but SE really are not the major player you see them as either as being 4th with under 10% and falling a major player does not make them. As for the SE faithful maybe it has escaped your notice as to just how many of these users have now lost faith in SE and moved to other manufactures. They have done this for two reasons one is the lack of up to date spec's in their devices but worse is their lack of faith and trust that SE will deliver and support there needs.
As i said everyone loves an optimist but i really don't think your vision of the future is what will happen HTC have been producing devices for quite some time and have a good user base the idea all their users will swap to SE for a more expensive device is unfounded IMO. But as you say only time will tell on all of the above and how it plays out but i for one have serious reservations about your conclusions.
Marc
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Honoured to have won BEST DEBATER
[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2008-03-23 22:17 ]
Posted by aksd
@Marc
I am not being optimistic, I seriously dont even care about SE or any other manufacturer, I have issues with every manufacturer out there, I love operating systems and their hardware, more Operating systems more competition eventually better products for the end user.
You are seriously misunderstanding my posts or I'm not making my point clear enough.
You of all people know that Symbian is the smartphone market leader, and this is because of Nokia, linux follows behind symbian with huge sales of linux based motorolas in the last few years in China with WM behind these two major players(one major and the other one much smaller but bigger than WM).
SE in WM terms is HUGE! HTC have waht like a >2% market share worldwide, this being a very optimistic value. Its not just how many of the X1 will sell, but what the X1 will do in bringing WM to mass market. HTC as of now is a niche market manufacturer, Sony Ericsson is mass market. You must look at this not from the Nokia perspective of 50% market share but from a WM point of view, even if the X1 does'nt sell in huge numbers, even moderate sale for the product(I predict good slaes in its category though, but lie you siad its dependant on what the competition has to offer), its going to be good marketing nonetheless for WM, look at the number of people who will now consider getting the X1 on this forum who before would'nt have touched a WM phone.
An increase in WM's market share in the smartphone market is good for users of smartphones as it'll keep other OS makers on their toes, like what the iPhone and Android will do. You can see Nokia slightly stagnating their hardware and going a wee bit lower with the N96 because theres really no competition for the year and a half old N95. We dont want that to happen.
I hope you see my point when I see that SE going WM is good. And I hope I;ve got my point across this time round
Posted by Dogmann
@askd
The reason Nokia are not pushing the envelope any further is basically they have reached the limit of where the available tech can take them. Remember they first launched VGA 30FPS Video recording in the N93 and since then have added HSDPA to many of their devices. No one knows why Nokia have chosen the chip they have for the N96 but it would be a reasonable guess they had good reason for it maybe it's t do with DVB-H. I really wouldn't start to write Nokia off just yet as soon they will have the OMAP3 powered devices with boot times of seconds and all the improved performance that chip will bring, not of course forgetting the the Touch S60 UI is also coming removing one of the only unique selling points SE had for it's own smart phone UI.
Now just how are you going to split all the SE users between UIQ and WM and have both being successful there really aren't enough users there to support both platforms.
As i said we hold very different opinions on just how well the X1 will do in the market and really we will just have to wait and see how that pans out. But if everyone that uses SE for their smart phones does go down the X1 route that really want be good for UIQ will it.
Marc
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Nokia E90,8GB SDHC, Fring, Tom Tom 6
Dogmanns Nokia E90 Blog @ http://dogmann.vox.com/
Honoured to have won BEST DEBATER
[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2008-03-24 00:14 ]
Posted by aksd
@Marc,
I think you're a wee bit off the mark here, especially where the available tech thing is concerned. They still had a few mor features to extract from the OMAP 2 processor such as USB OTG, a bigger resolution screen and improving on the battery.
I've worked very closely with the Motorola R&D teams as well as the SE distributors in India, and in my experience they have the tech, Motorola had a prototype of a 3.2Mpx AF phone 3-4years ago, a Ming running WM and a lot more stuff which if I go into details would swing this topic way off topic, the only reason they dont release the tech is compromise on future products and at that moment its not economically profitable.
The only reason the N96 processor is weaker than the N95 one is becuase they've targeted at two different segments and all manufacturers run on a minimilastic approach, the bare minimum to do a particular job. The N96 is targeted as a video and to an extent audio device, not an all rounder as the N95 is, therfore they've plonked a processor that renders hardware acceleration for video. Gaming was'nt a priority, the 82 and 95 is there for that.
Arrrgh! The X1 is NOT expected to lure all SE smartphone lovers, its mean to increase their target area by entering the WM market. Not all SE fans are going to buy the X1 not all WM fans are going to buy the X1, but a bit from both will, this is what will constitute majority of its sales.
wow! I'm getting exhausted with my long replies
Posted by razec
@Dogmann and askd:
Any further details on the N96 processor? how does it compare (technically) to N95's cpu?
Posted by BoyBawang
On 2008-03-23 04:27:48, aksd wrote:
You really cant tell if Symbian is going to be faster than WM or not and even IF WM is slower it'll be slower by less than a second, more like a few milli seconds hardly noticeable. Also since we are specualting that Symbian is faster theres no real proof as at this moment you dont have two identical devices running both OS present you really cant tell.
Thanx.. But which Symbian UI are you refering to? usually it's generalized to s60 which is understandably lighter than WM. But UIQ3 might be another story because i believe it has some overhead for being Touch Screen and more overhead for it's flexibility to adjust to multiple screen orientation..
So that few milli seconds u mentioned become less apparent now with UIQ3 do u agree?
Posted by aksd
Its made by SMT, its the STn8815P14
Link: http://www.st.com/stonline/pr[....]rature/bd/14379/stn8815p14.pdf
Its ARM 9 with only 16kb cache
@BoyBawang
The only UIQ phone I have owned is the M600 and at the time I was'nt as technical minded as I am now, I thought it was fast enough at the time lol. Anyway I purchased a P1i for my grand dad which I used for a day, and as you say the response time is very much improved over the M600i, its on par with my TyTn2 running light, a wee bit slower maybe but hardly makes any difference in day to day usage. You must remember that once you open up your menu settings apps once after a reboot the second time is much faster as the programs are loaded onto the RAM, this is what makes the P1i faster than its predecessors. That intial load up time is faster in the N95 only because of the faster processor and myabe better optimization of the UI on the OS, as we know UIQ is extremely short handed when compared to S60. An actual comaprison can be made only by benchmarking them on andidentical hardware platform.
But dont you think we're getting a bit off topic here
.[ This Message was edited by: aksd on 2008-03-24 07:05 ]
Posted by razec
WHat's exactly the difference between ARM9 and ARM11?
Posted by aksd
We'll in layman terms not much, ARM 9 vs ARM11 goes waay over my head, only the hard core processor programmer guys actually know the advantages in practice. But as an end user its go a more efficent system, better 3D performanc, and updated instruction sets to ARMv6 from ARM v5 . The programming model is supposed to be superior.
This article will shed more light on the subject: http://lamipc54.epfl.ch/embed[....]roarchitecture+White+Paper.pdf
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Akshay
http://www.flickr.com/photos/akshaydashrath/
[ This Message was edited by: aksd on 2008-03-24 07:10 ]
[ This Message was edited by: aksd on 2008-03-24 07:11 ]