Posted by mswallis
On 2007-11-12 15:47:49, fatreg wrote:
that's all good and well Jools but O2 claim then when you cancel your contract the iPhone is redundant.....
I think you'll find that this is Apple's doing though, nothing to do with O2.
Posted by samab
Long time reader and first time poster.
Dogmann and I have been discussing this topic for a while on howardforums.
http://www.howardforums.com/showthread.php?t=1243570&page=2&pp=15
Please read the whole thing and tell me what you think.
Posted by Dogmann
Hi all,
Sorry for the delay have had a really bad night and morning and still am bad.
Any away started off with Otelo then on to OFCOM from there was directed to Trading Standards and Consumer Direct to eventually end up at the Office of Fair Trading who deal with the Competition act.
They have looked into it and as far as they are concerned 02 won the contract with Apple and they assume people would realise they have to use the device with 02.
I have made all our relevant points as to Outright purchase etc etc and as far as the are concerned it either does not apply or is not relevant. The best answer he could give me was to seek independent Legal advice.
So much for Consumer Protection is all i can say, unless some one can find where the directive that made the Networks have to sell unlock codes to us i really am at a loss as to how to pursue this further. But i do know for along time it wasn't possible to get an unlock code till either the end of the contract or by paying the whole contracts costs up front. What changed this so that the Networks now sell us the unlock codes is the only line of attack left. I do not accept the Networks all did this of their own free will something forced them to and we need to find out exactly what it was.
I still find the whole situation wrong and really can't think of any other Mobile device that suffers in this way even T-Mobiles, Voda or O2's Tytyn variants can all have unlock codes bought for them and they are exclusive devices to their Networks. So why is the iPhone any different? but for now that is as far as i can pursue this unless and until someone mangoes to find out about the unlocking situation.
The only other thing i can suggest is that as many as possible all call their local trading Standards and complain as that may make them look at the situation again.
Marc
_________________
Nokia E61, 2gb Sandisk, Fring, Tom Tom 6
Honoured to have won BEST DEBATER
[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2007-11-12 15:40 ]
Posted by samab
Americans carriers do offer unlocking codes for free after 90 days and they are doing this as a courtesy to their customers --- without any US laws requiring such generosity.
You are making a huge leap of faith reasoning in that UK carriers must have been forced by some un-named and hidden law because they are currently offering you an unlocking code for a fee.
[ This Message was edited by: samab on 2007-11-12 15:43 ]
Posted by Jools
You are making a huge leap of faith reasoning in that UK carriers must have been forced by some un-named and hidden law because they are currently offering you an unlocking code for a fee.
I'm sure that's true. Just based on each of the UK networks different policies on providing unlock codes, its clear there is no law or even a rule they are adhering to.
I've recently had 2 unlock codes for SE phones. One from Virgin which they provided in a matter of hours for free because I'd spent more than £30 in calltime. The other was from O2 which took 28 days (after multiple phone calls to chase it up) and cost £15.
That, and the fact that the previous posted text from September 2007 is actually asking OFCOM to look at making some clear rules that MNOs should adhere to.
Even though, at the time of purchase of an iPhone, you haven't actually signed up to any O2 contract, it's made clear that in order to use it you need to.
Posted by samab
I knew about the onephone response paper almost a month ago.
http://www.howardforums.com/showpost.php?p=10074542&postcount=59
You should read the whole hofo thread and especially my exchange with Dogmann on this topic.
Posted by Jools
Getting back to the sales volume conversation from earlier in this thread, Ars Technica are reporting that O2 had 8000 iPhone activations on Friday after 6.02pm. Actual sales are likely to be higher as not everyone will have activated on Friday. O2 was expecting around 3000 activations for Friday.
No figures as yet for the whole weekend.
http://arstechnica.com/journa[....]ons-on-day-one-5-year-contract
Posted by Nanu
I think I'll leave purchasing one till I visit New York in the new year unless it works out cheaper to just by one here and unlock and hack it!
Posted by samab
On 2007-11-12 17:39:36, JoolsG4 wrote:
Getting back to the sales volume conversation from earlier in this thread, Ars Technica are reporting that O2 had 8000 iPhone activations on Friday after 6.02pm. Actual sales are likely to be higher as not everyone will have activated on Friday. O2 was expecting around 3000 activations for Friday.
No figures as yet for the whole weekend.
http://arstechnica.com/journa[....]ons-on-day-one-5-year-contract
They can say whatever they want about their original expectations --- especially after the fact.
But it is strange that carphone expected 10000 units sold on the first day (not counting o2's own store and apple's own store) and o2 expected only 3000 activated in total (carphone + o2 + apple).
Posted by moveteam
Hmm.. I can't find anything about a specific (EU) law who mention it (unlocking the phone).
But I do know, that in Denmark, the carrier must only sign you up for 6 months, and SHALL give you a possibility to unlock the phone within the 6 months, for a fee (typically £45), but that doesn't mean that you can cancel your contract.
Can you just walk in to a British Apple Store (as a Dane) pay the £269, without to sign up for anything? When it comes to Denmark in January, there is no officially Apple Stores, and I think it only will be sold in the carriers stores (probably Vodafone or Telia)
One last thing, when the iPhone comes out in France (and for that matter in Scandinavia - same rules), could it be possible to copy the unlocked iPhone's firmware and flash it to an unlocked phone? Then you don't have to play the cat and mouse with Apple
Posted by Dogmann
Hi all,
I really find it very hard to believe that people bought a very expensive nice new gadget took it home and left it in the box? rather than activate it.
Marc
_________________
Nokia E61, 2gb Sandisk, Fring, Tom Tom 6
Honoured to have won BEST DEBATER
[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2007-11-12 18:14 ]
Posted by samab
On 2007-11-12 19:03:37, moveteam wrote:
But I do know, that in Denmark, the carrier must only sign you up for 6 months, and SHALL give you a possibility to unlock the phone within the 6 months, for a fee (typically £45), but that doesn't mean that you can cancel your contract.
Ever wonder why there is absolutely zero news on the prospect of iphone launch in Denmark.
Posted by indup
On 2007-11-12 19:13:45, Dogmann wrote:
Hi all,
I really find it very hard to believe that people bought a very expensive nice new gadget took it home and left it in the box? rather than activate it.
Marc
_________________
Nokia E61, 2gb Sandisk, Fring, Tom Tom 6
Honoured to have won BEST DEBATER
[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2007-11-12 18:14 ]
youd be surprised what some people are capable/incapable of.
Posted by Miss UK
Perhaps they didn't activate it cos after playing with it thought im taking it back, there must be some who have returned it due to stupid reasons (text messaging issues maybe) .. Are CPW selling on 02 this phone then? Whats stopping then selling it on other networks if da case
.. Will it be sold on o2 payg?
Posted by masseur
what is stopping them is probably contractual obligations but more importantly because they are locked to O2!
Posted by Superluminova
I have one and i don't intend to activate it via o2, i'll just wait for the hacker to jailbreak it.
oh on a side not, as long as you don't activate your iPhone you can return it to o2 at an time.
so there is not 14 day returns policy. so if i wanted i could return it in May for example
Posted by samab
O2/Apple --- 14 day return
Carphone -- 7 day return
http://www.o2.co.uk/termsconditions/iphone
[ This Message was edited by: samab on 2007-11-12 19:22 ]
Posted by mswallis
On 2007-11-12 19:51:45, miss uk wrote:
Perhaps they didn't activate it cos after playing with it thought im taking it back, there must be some who have returned it due to stupid reasons (text messaging issues maybe) .. Are CPW selling on 02 this phone then? Whats stopping then selling it on other networks if da case
.. Will it be sold on o2 payg?
Where have you been?! They merely sell the phone just like the O2 and Apple stores do, you activate and choose your tariff (on O2 believe it or not) at home via iTunes on your Mac or PC.
Posted by mswallis
On 2007-11-12 20:21:47, samab wrote:
O2/Apple --- 14 day return
Carphone -- 7 day return
http://www.o2.co.uk/termsconditions/iphone
[ This Message was edited by: samab on 2007-11-12 19:22 ]
That's what I thought too, Super's definitely got it wrong, you have 14 days to return whether you activate it or not.
Posted by themarques
When I look back I think the deal Amnesia and myself offered was pretty good, not allot of people took the offer up on the grounds of warranty issues but if you plan on really using an iphone you gonna need to jailbreak it US or UK. Now should anything happen there after and apple get a sniff that you jail-broke it then there goes your warranty out the window.
And really how many of you guys ever keep a phone that long that you have ever returned it under warrenty?
Posted by Superluminova
nope i'm 100% correct.
Posted by samab
On 2007-11-12 20:34:12, Superluminova wrote:
nope i'm 100% correct.
Read the terms and conditions carefully. They don't care if you activate your iphone or not --- you must return your iphone within 14 days if you got it from O2 or Apple and you must return your iphone within 7 days if you got it from Carphone.
Posted by Superluminova
Nice little edit off the t&c's you did they're.
10 Important –Your right to change your mind
10.1 In addition to any other rights you have, and subject to paragraph 10.3 below, you may cancel this Agreement without liability for the remaining monthly subscription payments and return your Mobile Phone for a full refund:
(a) within 14 days from the date on which you received your Mobile Phone if you purchased your Mobile Phone from O2 or Apple; or
(b) within 7 Working Days from the date on which you received your Mobile Phone if you purchased your Mobile Phone from The Carphone Warehouse,
in either case described as the “Change of Mind Period“.
To do this you must return your Mobile Phone, undamaged, with proof of purchase, in the original packaging and complete with all the original parts, together with your email confirming failed activation if applicable, within the applicable Change of Mind Period to the store that you purchased from, or via the applicable returns procedure if you did not purchase in a retail store. If you did not purchase your Mobile Phone direct from O2 you will also need to notify us of the return by contacting O2 Customer Service. You may activate and use your SIM Card in your Mobile Phone to connect to the Network during this period, but you will be required to pay for the cost of any usage you make such as calls, texts or data, including roaming or other usage that my take longer to be billed.
10.2 You may also cancel this Agreement up to 14 days after the date that you successfully activate and we connect your SIM Card to the Network (the “Distance Sales Trial Period“) as long as you notify us in writing within this 14 day period, but you will not be able to also return your Mobile Phone. You agree that if you use your SIM card to connect to the Network during the Distance Sales Trial Period then you will lose your right to cancel within the Distance Sales Trial Period and you will be responsible for any Charges incurred.
10.3 If you were within the minimum term of an O2 pay monthly agreement at the time you purchased your Mobile Phone from O2 and O2 permitted you to switch to an O2 tariff for iPhone without paying a transfer fee in place of your remaining monthly charges, you agree that you will be transferred back to your previous tariff and required to complete your previous agreement if you cancel this Agreement within the Change of Mind Period or Distance Sales Change of Mind Period.
10.4 Nothing in paragraph 10 affects your statutory rights.
so in short, if i don't activate my iPhone and agree to the 18 month agreement i can return my used and unactivated iPhone at anytime.
Posted by samab
If you bought the iphone from the Apple UK store, they have a general 14 days refund rule.
http://store.apple.com/Catalo[....]es/salespolicies_consumer.html
Posted by Superluminova
i didn't mention apple retail or cpw retail only o2.
Posted by londonlad123
On a side note, according to a london newspaper the iphone sold over 100,000 phones so far.
Posted by obakesan
On 2007-11-12 19:51:45, miss uk wrote:
Perhaps they didn't activate it cos after playing with it thought im taking it back, there must be some who have returned it due to stupid reasons
Based on reading the US launch, you need to activate the iPhone in order for it to function. It is a total brick without activation so you couldn't even take it home, try it and think, nope don't like it. Hmm, I wonder what the legality of that is? You cant try it until you commit basically.
Also, just thinking then, even if the iPhone was "unlocked", unless it was activated, you still couldn't use it. (assuming you hacked the activation as was done in US early on)
(text messaging issues maybe) .. Are CPW selling on 02 this phone then?
Whats stopping then selling it on other networks if da case
.. Will it be
Contractual agreements between all three parties, O2 is the service provider exclusive, while Carphone is the retail exclusive aside from O2 and Apple itself. So, you won't find it at 4foru on T-Mobile for example.
sold on o2 payg?
Not yet anyway. I doubt it would be seen as cost effective given the cut of the takings Apple is taking.
Cheers,
Posted by obakesan
On 2007-11-12 20:34:12, Superluminova wrote:
nope i'm 100% correct.
I'm no lawyer, but reading the T&C you posted I don't think this is the case.
It would seem to me that you have a 14 day change of mind period from the date of purchase from O2/Apple and 7 days from CW. Within this period if you do activate and use the service, you will need to pay any outstanding charges. You will get a refund for the phone though you return.
Once the phone has been activated though, you have a further 14 days regardless of where you bought the phone to cancel. You will need to pay outstanding charges, BUT you will not be refunded the money for the phone. So, you would be left with a device you could not use in affect.
If you were originally an O2 customer and upgraded to the iPhone tarrif, then you would revert back to your previous tariff and conditions if you did cancel.
Weather you activate or not won't change the days you have as a change my mind period. If you don't activate after 14/7 days, the cooling off peiod would have passed, so in affect you have then accepted the 18 month contract, etc. You could probably cancel, but possibly not until you activated which would mean you would not get a refund on the phone. Not sure if you would need to "buy the contact" though as you have not signed up yet, not sure have O2, etc would spin that. Anyone with other thoughts on this?
Cheers,
Posted by petrutms
just tested an iphone with latest sw fersion. I love it !!!! But i`ll keep my k800 and p1 until something new appears. I really need some AIO device, and iphone isn`t that kind of device. Like the future P5...
Posted by Superluminova
I know i'm correct because i spent two hours of my friday night in a meeting discussing this very fact.
No agreement, means i can return it when i wish.
Posted by obakesan
I doubt if you came back to the shop a few months later you would be able to return the item. That indicate one could buy say, a laptop, keep it in a box for 6 months, then return to the store and say I want to return this. Surely there will be a grace period where you have had the item for a long enough time it is deemed that you want it. ok, you could return it, but weather you would actually get a refund or not is another matter.
Cheers,
Posted by samab
On 2007-11-12 21:50:31, Superluminova wrote:
I know i'm correct because i spent two hours of my friday night in a meeting discussing this very fact.
No agreement, means i can return it when i wish.
You are probably right with the O2 purchase.
But there might be a separate return and refunding policy from O2 itself for the iphone --- apart from the contract agreement. I don't know anything about the O2 case, but in the AT&T launch --- AT&T's general return and refunding policy (30 day return) doesn't apply to the iphone (which is a special 14 day policy).
What is the general return and refund policy for O2?
[ This Message was edited by: samab on 2007-11-12 21:03 ]
Posted by Superluminova
I'm not talking about anything other than the iPhone so lets not try and cloud the water here.
I know what i've been told is the truth and you don't agree. End of discussion really.
Ok back on topic.
If anyone wants to email or complain to o2 the details will follow.
I'm just of the phone with a rather lovely and very helpful team manager in the iPhone dept. at o2. She advised me that she couldn't comment on the legal side of this, which was expected, but she did inform me that if you do fail the credit check or don't wish to activate the iphone for use on an o2 iPhone contract they isn't anything o2 will currently do for you.
So if you wish to complain to the legal dept. contact these guys.
complaintsreviewservice@o2.com
or:
O2
Arlington Business Centre
Millshaw Park Lane
LEEDS
LS11 0NE
Hope this helps anyone.
Ps. To be truthful i don't really know why I'm that bothered as i hack will come alone in the near future. lol
_________________
I love my Apple Mac, but I won't buy a iPhone (Unless i'm having a stupid buying day)
A-ZoTT
[ This Message was edited by: Superluminova on 2007-11-12 21:15 ]
Posted by MWEB
So no PAYG option for failed CC's, that just goes to show you that one advisor will say one thing, while another will espouse something else completely.
Posted by samab
It's not about clouding the issues.
There has to be a generic 02 return and refunding policy somewhere. If there is no "special" iphone return and refunding policy within O2, then the generic o2 return and refunding policy applies.
Posted by mswallis
On 2007-11-12 22:07:33, Superluminova wrote:
but she did inform me that if you do fail the credit check or don't wish to activate the iphone for use on an o2 iPhone contract they isn't anything o2 will currently do for you.
A mate of mine works for O2 retail and he said if you fail the credit check, you have to return the phone with the e-mail confirming you failed it, at which point they will offer you a 16GB iPod touch (as it's conveniently the same price as an iPhone.) or your money back obviously.
Posted by samab
On 2007-11-12 22:18:07, mswallis wrote:
On 2007-11-12 22:07:33, Superluminova wrote:
but she did inform me that if you do fail the credit check or don't wish to activate the iphone for use on an o2 iPhone contract they isn't anything o2 will currently do for you.
A mate of mine works for O2 retail and he said if you fail the credit check, you have to return the phone with the e-mail confirming you failed it, at which point they will offer you a 16GB iPod touch (as it's conveniently the same price as an iPhone.) or your money back obviously.
They can't force you to return the iphone --- but after 14 days, they don't have to take the iphone back.
Posted by mswallis
Why wouldn't you return it? £269 for an Apple branded paper weight is a bit expensive. If you've failed the credit check why are you gonna keep it?
Posted by fatreg
On 2007-11-12 22:32:55, mswallis wrote:
Why wouldn't you return it? £269 for an Apple branded paper weight is a bit expensive. If you've failed the credit check why are you gonna keep it?
JAIL-BREAK
that's why my iPhone is only going to cost me £269...
EDIT: I've got no intention whatsoever of signing an 18 month contract with O2.
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[ This Message was edited by: fatreg on 2007-11-12 21:59 ]
Posted by Mr Miyagi
After reading through all the posts here regarding this issue. Thought I would add my input that the below quotes are correct. If you do fail the credit check, then yes you will be given an email with that information and with that email you can claim the refund back, once you take handset back to point of purchase. And after 14 days the returns policy is no longer valid so O2/Apple are not in a position to take the handset back or offer a refund, after 14 days.
On 2007-11-12 22:27:24, samab wrote:
On 2007-11-12 22:18:07, mswallis wrote:
On 2007-11-12 22:07:33, Superluminova wrote:
but she did inform me that if you do fail the credit check or don't wish to activate the iphone for use on an o2 iPhone contract they isn't anything o2 will currently do for you.
A mate of mine works for O2 retail and he said if you fail the credit check, you have to return the phone with the e-mail confirming you failed it, at which point they will offer you a 16GB iPod touch (as it's conveniently the same price as an iPhone.) or your money back obviously.
They can't force you to return the iphone --- but after 14 days, they don't have to take the iphone back.
Posted by babianfarthez
So what if the iphone is not in prestine condition, and you fail a credit check? Say you dropped it as you were unpacking it.
they would'nt accept it for a refund, and couldnt offer you an alternative???
Posted by Mr Miyagi
If u cracked the screen I guess they don't have to take it back,its like any type of goods u buy, electrical or clothing if its ripped or broken they r not obliged to pay out a refund in them circumstances
Posted by jp321
just to throw another spanner in the works but with Xmas coming up,what if somebody was to buy an iphone as a present for somebody & by the time Xmas day came round & the person opened & tryed to activate it & failed the credit check,could they still refuse to offer a refund if over the 14 day return period?
Posted by mswallis
On 2007-11-13 10:58:13, jp321 wrote:
just to throw another spanner in the works but with Xmas coming up,what if somebody was to buy an iphone as a present for somebody & by the time Xmas day came round & the person opened & tryed to activate it & failed the credit check,could they still refuse to offer a refund if over the 14 day return period?
What a lovely christmas present, a £35 a month contract for 18 months.
Posted by jp321
On 2007-11-13 11:19:39, mswallis wrote:
On 2007-11-13 10:58:13, jp321 wrote:
just to throw another spanner in the works but with Xmas coming up,what if somebody was to buy an iphone as a present for somebody & by the time Xmas day came round & the person opened & tryed to activate it & failed the credit check,could they still refuse to offer a refund if over the 14 day return period?
What a lovely christmas present, a £35 a month contract for 18 months.
I'm generous like that!
Posted by Miss UK
On 2007-11-12 20:24:17, mswallis wrote:
On 2007-11-12 19:51:45, miss uk wrote:
Perhaps they didn't activate it cos after playing with it thought im taking it back, there must be some who have returned it due to stupid reasons (text messaging issues maybe) .. Are CPW selling on 02 this phone then? Whats stopping then selling it on other networks if da case
.. Will it be sold on o2 payg?
Where have you been?! They merely sell the phone just like the O2 and Apple stores do, you activate and choose your tariff (on O2 believe it or not) at home via iTunes on your Mac or PC.
I haven't been watching this discussion alot if that helps..
btw im sure they'll be a way to get round that surely other then those options you state there.
not everyone wants to use 02 and tbh quite frank it prob will end up on other networks within a year or 2
if Apple launch iPhone2
then there gonna have to take alot off this topic to mind!
Posted by mswallis
Apple and O2 have a 5 year exclusive deal, so no chance of legally seeing it on other networks til after then at least.
Posted by below24
if you buy your iphone now you have untill jan to return it. Just been talking to a guy from o2.
Posted by Daedalus85
That bit is at least true, provided its as it was when you bought it, and it's not activated. It's a Christmas exchange policy, they extended it by a few weeks for JUST the iPhone (note, not any other phone) to encorporate the launch as alot of people were buying them as gifts.
Posted by Seanyb2
WHATEVER ANYONE ELSE THINKS I THINK THIS PHONE IS SERIOUSLY OVER RATED. And i think Apple have made a big mistake going with just O2. WHY.
This message was posted from a 6300