Posted by goldenface
After seeing what has been going on in the Esato Markets recently, here and here its about time something was done about it.
I was thinking that for all trades done where the feedback is on the low side then a Treasurer should be nominated to keep hold of the goods until the payment has been received.
Any more ideas would be welcome.
So far:
- Batesie
- Scottt
- Masseur and
- Peterkay
have offered their services.
If anyone has any objections to these fine people becoming a middleman for trade transactions then let us know.
If you think you can offer your services as a middle man then please let us know.
[ This Message was edited by: goldenface on 2007-05-25 09:08 ]
Posted by maggflodd
that's a great idea!!! I might even consider selling/buying here then... at the moment, NO WAY!!!
Nice thought, goldenface... but maybe hard to administer???
Laffen? Bobafett, sir???
axxxr - your mi6 office should be a secure place???
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[ This Message was edited by: maggflodd on 2007-05-18 09:19 ]
Posted by masseur
the suggestion of escrow has been brought up a few times and I have even offered to do this myself (and indeed have done so a couple of times for a member here), but it doesn't seem to have much popularity, possibly because it doubles postage costs and also delays the transaction.
...but perhaps thats a price that has to be paid for safe transactions
Posted by goldenface
There seems to be a lot of it about at the moment, may be its needed as a temporary measure and optional of course.
The treasurer of course would have millions of positive feedback.
Personally, trading here at the moment, I wouldn't mind paying another £3-5 on postage if it meant things going smoothly.
Posted by Nanu
Excellent idea something needs to be done, I must admit I was a little hasty in Paying, but can I really be blamed for being so trusting? and it was only afterwards I realised exactly who he was!
It wouldn't be so bad if there were enough "Treasurers" dotted about so that exchanges of goods could be done in person but again this is a lot of hassle!
I know I would certainly help out where possible!
Posted by batesie
Escrow is the best way of making a secure transaction.
a treasurer from here, well they would have to be elected, and want to do it in the first place! i guess in therory for purchases over a certain amount it would be a good idea.
Posted by masseur
well, I'm always here to help, though I don't have millions of feedback, but hopefully I can be trusted just a bit
anyway, thats just one possibility as there are several here who fit the bill IMHO
Posted by goldenface
Well if there was an elected pool of Treasurers then the work load would be shared so they would only have to act as Treasurer very rarely.
Also, he/she would have to be acceptable to both traders.
Oh, and the treasurer could only act on one transaction at a time?
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[ This Message was edited by: goldenface on 2007-05-18 09:36 ]
Posted by batesie
i dont mind helping in a transaction now and then.
Posted by goldenface
I don't think you can elect yourself batesie
Hooray, batesie and Masseur are our 1st in the pool.
Shall we get MikLSP involved. Maybe he can draw some system of voting and listing?
_________________
The UK's Best Selling Phones
P990i + BT30Q
[ This Message was edited by: goldenface on 2007-05-18 09:52 ]
Posted by maggflodd
this might be the right place to bring up an idea I had earlier this week.
Reading about a few guys who had phones stolen, who were ripped of etc etc... I though, heck, yeah, and then you're broke.... While there's folks here (myself included) who have "old" phones they no longer use but cannot be arsed to sell....
So, I thought I'd pass on my od kxxx to a worthy member "in need", and that member could then pass it on to someone else once the problem is solved... or return it to a treasurer - maybe paying for postage!?!
Obviously, the system would have to be protected against scammers????
What do you think???
Posted by batesie
On 2007-05-18 10:52:21, goldenface wrote:
I don't think you can elect yourself batesie
Hooray, batesie and Masseur are our 1st in the pool.
Shall we get MikLSP involved. Maybe he can draw some system of voting and listing?
_________________
The UK's Best Selling Phones
P990i + BT30Q
[ This Message was edited by: goldenface on 2007-05-18 09:52 ]
good idea, what about if the person has met face to face with a certain amount of people.? maybe top 20 posters and high feedback traders?
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[ This Message was edited by: batesie on 2007-05-18 09:58 ]
Posted by maggflodd
On 2007-05-18 10:57:21, batesie wrote:
good idea, what about if the person has met face to face with a certain amount of people.? maybe top 20 posters and high feedback traders?
BATSIE, GOLDENFACE'S IDEA OR MINE?
But hell, it's called online-community!!! I wouldn't mind putting my phone where my mouth is -
pun intended
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... Know your enemy...
[ This Message was edited by: maggflodd on 2007-05-18 10:06 ]
Posted by batesie
this thread is more about a middle man for transactions...
but your idea is good, but i wouldnt think theres many people willing to lend a complete stranger a working phone for an unknown amount of time...
Posted by goldenface
@batesie
There are a few members on here who have met face to face and that can also be vouced for, so that in itself is another built-in level of trust so to speak.
Great!
Quite a lot of trading does go on here so it shouldn't be too difficult to build a core pool of traders who can be easily trusted.
Shall we keep it to a limted number of say 10 or so or have an open amount?
_________________
The UK's Best Selling Phones
P990i + BT30Q
[ This Message was edited by: goldenface on 2007-05-18 10:13 ]
Posted by maggflodd
On 2007-05-18 11:09:27, batesie wrote:
this thread is more about a middle man for transactions...
but your idea is good, but i wouldnt think theres many people willing to lend a complete stranger a working phone for an unknown amount of time...
I know, it's not what the thread is about, just brought it up because of the similar administrative problems and trust issues!
Posted by batesie
well i guess we should wait for some more users too feedback ideas on this, and it would be good to get laffen to state the rules once decided...
Posted by masseur
Esato does not take any responsibility for any trades done here. It merely facilitates trading by providing market forums for members to advertise in.
As trading is wholly a member based activity its totally up to us, the members, to make the rules as we see fit
Posted by batesie
On 2007-05-18 11:24:44, masseur wrote:
Esato does not take any responsibility for any trades done here. It merely facilitates trading by providing market forums for members to advertise in.
As trading is wholly a member based activity its totally up to us, the members, to make the rules as we see fit
fair dinkum
Posted by >500
id be willing to help from here in Australia, though shipping costs could be costly
seriously though, something needs to be organised..... i know masseur will of course be will suited, he has helped me on more than 1 occasion
Posted by leeboy13
this really is a great idea and having afew in different locations would certainly help cut costs and cut delays
this is a real positive move in the right direction IMHO for esato
Posted by scottt
I can help out too
I think i have over 10 feedbacks not sure
Posted by MWEB
Basically sound idea, But it does require strong co-ordination and a large degree of responsibility on the part of "asset-holders".
Operating on a regional basis is very sensible, Time was when posting of any item was purely based on relative feedback, those with little or no feedback were obliged to post first.
Trust is in short supply these days, and it is sad but perhaps inevitable that such a scheme as is proposed may have to be implemented.
Posted by MikLSP
This is something I had thought about doing a long time ago and even proposed it as a paid "premium" feature for se-nse just over a year ago HERE
In reality there are many problems with a middle man taking care of the goods. The biggest of which is the opportunity it gives for someone to send a faulty phone to the middle man and then claim they damaged it. Of course you could test every device but I'd prefer to leave them untouched/unopened.
Also it would double the postage costs.
To avoid these problems I would suggest the idea is probably only viable if the middle man handles only the cash.
The buyer would send the payment to the trusted person who then informs the seller.
The seller then sends the item directly to the buyer as he knows payment is secure.
Once the item has been received by the buyer the payment will be forwarded to the seller.
Of course certain conditions would need to be enforced such as methods of payment and strictly recorded deliveries only.
Mik
Posted by Sammy_boy
Sounds like an excellent idea, I'd be willing to act as the middleman from time to time!
Something does need to be done as there does seem to be quite a few scammers that pop up (or the same few that keep re-registering).
How would it work if it was a buyer with no feedback - would they send the payment to a middleman? I think for buying either bank transfers, cash, postal orders or confirmed paypal accounts would be the only acceptable methods.
Edit: Trackable posting has to be a must too, recorded del a minimum.
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[ This Message was edited by: Sammy_boy on 2007-05-18 18:08 ]
Posted by Nanu
That way it keeps postage cost's down to one way!
Either way something needs to be done, as for a fee that too is a very reasonable request, as I wouldn't have minded paying an extra £5-£10 if it meant I would have either a phone or my money back at the end of the transaction!
Posted by goldenface
On 2007-05-18 18:59:13, MikLSP wrote:
In reality there are many problems with a middle man taking care of the goods. The biggest of which is the opportunity it gives for someone to send a faulty phone to the middle man and then claim they damaged it.
Mik
Yes, that would be easily solved if the seller ensured that the phone was addressed and ready prepared for the middleman to post. This way there would be no reason for the middleman to handle the phone - only the parcel.
Posted by masseur
...which would then raise the question of how the middle man can confirm that what is in the parcel matched what had been advertised so that the funds can be released? otherwise the seller could be sending any old value-less thing to the buyer, and I think the middle man should be taking care of both parties needs otherwise whats the point?
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[ This Message was edited by: masseur on 2007-05-21 08:54 ]
Posted by goldenface
Thats certainly true!
So the middle-man should test the phone to see if it works as advertised?
Posted by masseur
sorry, I was just editing my post as you replied again.
basically I added "I think the middle man should be taking care of both parties needs otherwise whats the point?"
The whole point is to ensure the transaction works for the seller and buyer and as for concerns over whether the middle man damaged the phone... again... isn't the point of all this that only trusted people would be the middle man and someone agreed by both sides, and therefore beyond doubt?
Posted by PeterKay
I don't mind helping out
Think it's a great idea @Goldenface, lets get this implemented sooner rather than later.
Posted by goldenface
On 2007-05-18 18:59:13, MikLSP wrote:
This is something I had thought about doing a long time ago and even proposed it as a paid "premium" feature for se-nse just over a year ago HERE
In reality there are many problems with a middle man taking care of the goods. The biggest of which is the opportunity it gives for someone to send a faulty phone to the middle man and then claim they damaged it. Of course you could test every device but I'd prefer to leave them untouched/unopened.
Also it would double the postage costs.
To avoid these problems I would suggest the idea is probably only viable if the middle man handles only the cash.
The buyer would send the payment to the trusted person who then informs the seller.
The seller then sends the item directly to the buyer as he knows payment is secure.
Once the item has been received by the buyer the payment will be forwarded to the seller.
Of course certain conditions would need to be enforced such as methods of payment and strictly recorded deliveries only.
Mik
Thanks Mik for this.
This I think is the best idea because:
- It saves on postage because payment can be deposited directly into the third parties account
- The third party doesn't have to handle the phone
So far we have Masseur, Peterkay, Scottt and Batesie.
Shall we set a date, say one week from today to come up with a list of volunteers?
I will change the title of the thread and compile a list in the first post of this thread and let people know that there is an opportunity for people to register any objections.
It would be great if some good traders could give us their opinion on what they think should make a good middleman - feedback wise.
@masseur
Would it be possible to have the list as a sticky or should it just be incorporated into the AZOTT thread?
Posted by masseur
I guess its probably the most workable solution but doesn't really protect the seller 100% as I've mentioned before.
What happens if the phone is received by the buyer who perhaps damages the phone and claims it as faulty or not as advertised? (maybe because they no longer want it or whatever reason...) He would then return it to the seller and claim his money back leaving the seller with a phone that is not in the condition it was sent.
I really feel the middle man has to handle both sides for the transaction to be 100% smooth
The AZoTT is already sticky and I think its an appropriate place for this list, somewhere in the first post
Posted by goldenface
Right then.
Unless anyone has any objections then the Treasurer looks after both sides of the transaction.
I will sign off the the rest of the day but if anyone wants to offer their services as an Esato Treasurer then please let us know.
Posted by masseur
I'm not saying this is how it has to be, its just my opinion but really down to the majority to decide. or perhaps one of these two alternatives can be agreed by the buyer and seller at the time of the transaction
Posted by Nanu
I would also offer my services when needed, but obviously I don't have a large amount of feedback within this forum but have been a member of eBay for 8 years now with 100% posititive feedback also I do not mind in any way confirming my identity and furnishing another treasurer with proof of my address etc and so forth.
Posted by MikLSP
If the middle man handles the phone then you are taking a much bigger responsibility for it.
Lets say there is an intermittant fault which you do not notice by quickly testing the phone....you then pass it on as fully working but the buyer discovers the fault after a few days.
The seller is covered by simply saying it was fine when they sent it as confirmed by the middle man!
Personally I wouldn't handle them.
Also people buying a brand new sealed item probably don't want it to be opened and used before it gets to them.
I don't think it is a good idea to become so involved as that simply creates more liability and after all even the middle man is based on trust and we've all seen trusted traders with high feedback scores turn bad and receive negatives before.
The simpler the better, allow the deal to be as normal as possible with the middle man simply securing the cash until the item is received.
Any disputes over the item are therefore only between the seller and buyer rather than involving the middle man as yet another variable.
The cash can be held until the item is accepted or returned at the buyers expense.
Posted by Marc_SE
I wouldn't mind helping out from time to time - although I've been a longtime forum member (under various guises) I've only recently become quite active (post wise) on here.
I can be vouched for on What Mobile forums if that helps too.
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[ This Message was edited by: Marc_SE on 2007-05-21 23:46 ]
Posted by goldenface
Personally, I think the less the middleman handles the phone the better.
However, I don't think we should have the way we do the transaction set in stone either - being flexible is also a good thing and ultimately it is up to the traders to decide what method is used.
e.g. a middleman might not be sure he was going to be around to sign for a phone and so would prefer the cash transferred into his account.
So the middleman either handles the cash or handles the phone or both if agreed by both traders. The most important thing is clear communication, as long as all three parties are clear on what method used there shouldn't be a problem.
_________________
The UK's Best Selling Phones
Esato around the World
P990i + BT30Q
[ This Message was edited by: goldenface on 2007-05-22 09:00 ]
Posted by fatreg
I'll offer my services...
Posted by Sammy_boy
I should be able to offer my services too if needed!
Posted by BobaFett
imo this idea really honoreable and very nice, but who would be ready to take over the responsibility for anybodies fone? like miklsp pointed ( and that was my first thought too ), if there is a hidden bug, whats up then? imo everybody should deal on their own. i have some really good friends who u trust my money or who trust me that much to send fone(s) with payment later, but thats another story, cos its in the background. as i see, the a to z thread is running brilliant, no need to expand in any way esato tradings, cos its just a bonus for us, not the real mission of the site, as i noticed it. i can imagine, that one day some of us will be ready to manage a kind of "easto trader thread", but thats another story.
Posted by fatreg
the middle person accepts no responsibility.. they are merely a holding point..
Posted by goldenface
Well if need be, the middle man only need handle the cash.
Plus, its only optional.
Posted by Davo_169
ill help out
just put all your crap in a garbage bag and place it in the bin behind the strip joint!!
ill sort out the rest
Posted by goldenface
@boba
Well if need be, the middle man only need handle the cash, then the phone is only sent from the seller to the buyer when the middleman is holding the cash.
Plus, its only optional.
And lets face it, if you can't trust masseur, batesie, Peterkay and Scottt then who can we trust.
All we are doing is ensuring that anyone who wants to trade on here has the option of using a trusted member as a middleman.
Posted by PeterKay
Who would pay the postage for the middleman?
Most items would be RMSD i guess, is it the buyer or the seller?
Posted by BobaFett
its not about if u trust the mentioned members or not. i just mean, that old members trust each other anyway, so they have to face probably new mebers, where it could come maybe to "difficulties"... once again, its really a great idea and i do honour, if any of us is ready to coordinate all this. respect.
Posted by goldenface
On 2007-05-25 09:41:30, PeterKay wrote:
Who would pay the postage for the middleman?
Most items would be RMSD i guess, is it the buyer or the seller?
Well if the middle man is holding the money only then it could be transfered into each others bank so there would be no postage in that scenario.
Sending money through the post by RMSD is covered up to £2500 and costs £4.30.
So I guess it would have to be decided if/when the traders decide to use the middleman - they could even split the cost.
@boba
The co-ordination isn't an issue.
When you think about it there is just one extra transaction.
Say if you bought a phone from me and I had zero feedback:
1) you would send the money to say Peterkay - a trusted member.
2) I would send you the phone
3) If you are happy you tell Peterkay to send your money to me.
4) If not happy then send the phone back.
5) Your money is returned to you by Peterkay.
Right, because this is in its early days, I think its a good idea to stick to the initial four middlemen and we can enrol more if an when they are needed.
_________________
The UK's Best Selling Phones
Esato around the World
P990i + BT30Q
[ This Message was edited by: goldenface on 2007-05-25 09:07 ]
Posted by BobaFett
how to avoid those situations, where buyer made up her/his mind ( it can happen ) just because she/he says some crap and dont wanna take the fone ( scamers are evrywhere ), but the seller wont accept her/his point and say: we had a deal, u agredd, end of the story. i dont wish to point in first line on negative things, but i see and hear some many bad stories and in this case, a third person would involved too, as he would stay in the middle of the fireline.