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UK sailors captured at gunpoint
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Posted by maggflodd
On 2007-03-28 23:26:34, Xugaa wrote:
Lol, calm down...
Did you know...?
After the "Popeye" comic strip was launched in 1931, spinach consumption went up by thirty-three percent in the United States.
In World War II, the German submarine U-120 was sunk by a malfunctioning toilet.
Right, where were we?
[ This Message was edited by: Xugaa on 2007-03-28 22:33 ]
for now I'll take that as a nod - beep
Posted by maggflodd
On 2007-03-28 23:40:10, maggflodd wrote:
On 2007-03-28 23:26:34, Xugaa wrote:
Lol, calm down...
Did you know...?
After the "Popeye" comic strip was launched in 1931, spinach consumption went up by thirty-three percent in the United States.
In World War II, the German submarine U-120 was sunk by a malfunctioning toilet.
Right, where were we?
[ This Message was edited by: Xugaa on 2007-03-28 22:33 ]
for now I'll take that as a nod - beep
(p.s. Easy on the happy pillS - the world might "make real sense", but you're hard to understand...)
Posted by oneofthose
@maggflodd, just saw the image evidence re. the location - though it wasn't an n95 your prediction wasn't far off. Would def'tly not hold up in a court of law! Oh, I forgot, this is not about law, it's about newly ordering the world. Anyhow, should I EVER BE CAUGHT on a speedcam, I'll just take A PHOTO of a gps unit to court to prove 'I wasn't there' - works on members of this 'jury'!
Posted by goldenface
They've paraded poor Faye Turney, the female captive, on Iranian TV, the poor girl looks absolutely terrified!!!
Feelings are running so high at the moment over this situation. They've got no right to keep them there. Whether they were in Iranian territory or not, which they obviously weren't, they simply have to let them go!!
I can see reprisals taking place,definitely. Especially, forcing her to wear the head scarf.
Posted by maggflodd
On 2007-03-29 09:22:45, goldenface wrote:
They've paraded poor Faye Turney, the female captive, on Iranian TV, the poor girl looks absolutely terrified!!!
Feelings are running so high at the moment over this situation. They've got no right to keep them there. Whether they were in Iranian territory or not, which they obviously weren't, they simply have to let them go!!
I can see reprisals taking place,definitely. Especially, forcing her to wear the head scarf.
They will let them go - but to demand they do it pronto, is to deny the Iranians the right to investigate, isn't it... i am not trying to be callous - I've had 2 good friends in xyz rot away in prison for 2 years because of, as the juidge would finally put it, recklessly farcical undercover police work... i know how scared they were...!!! The head scarf...oh my...- every experienced western female journalist puts that on voluntarily, as a sign of acceptance of being in a different culture!!! If they had un-dressed her...oops that was abu ghraib... uS soldiers!!! And apropos abu g.: where's the sustained outrage re. Guantanamo - those guys go through hell...for years...!!!!!! Those friends of mine were arrested in an EU country. For being at a peace demo! Because those 2 undercover cops were hyped but, shit, no crime! So they followed them home, put paving slabs on train rails, took pictures and claimed those 2 poor dudes were terrorists! 2 years! Stolen! Zerozerozero mainstream media attention except for the initial "two terror suspects arrested - plot foiled" bullshit!!! Don't think I'm being callous - but the Iranians are entitled to investigate, and the photo evidence so far has been nonsense, if you please look at it!!!
Posted by goldenface
Blah blah blah!
They paraded them on TV for a reason, and guess what? it worked.
Just let them go!
Forcing them to admit they trespassed on national TV when they didn't!!.
F*ckin scumbags! (the captors, I mean)
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[ This Message was edited by: goldenface on 2007-03-29 13:19 ]
Posted by maggflodd
On 2007-03-29 10:07:33, goldenface wrote:
Blah blah blah!
They paraded them on TV for a reason, and guess what? it worked.
Just let them go!
Forcing them to admit they tresspassed on national TV when they didn't!!.
F*ckin scumbags!
"blahblah"...??? Quite the argument - you oughta be really proud on your high level of empathy and analytical skill - yet you manage to be so, how can I say? Full of yourself?... - wait, I do it myself: blahblah!!!
Posted by goldenface
Here's some more blah for you.
You're saying they have the right to 'investigate' them. Of course they have.
Forcing the poor girl to admit under duress, on national TV, that she was trespassing when she wasn't. Parading her when she is obviously terrified out of her wits...
Great stuff!
Posted by maggflodd
On 2007-03-29 11:52:09, goldenface wrote:
Here's some more blah for you.
You're saying they have the right to 'investigate' them. Of course they have.
Forcing the poor girl to admit under duress, on national TV, that she was trespassing when she wasn't. Parading her when she is obviously terrified out of her wits...
Great stuff!
At no point did I (nor anyone else here I believe) say, "sure, let them torture them..."... What my posts and many others are about is a call for unbiased, informed debate. Analysis that isn't hampered by media-induced emotionalities... unbiased, un-double-standarded!!! Real evidence - that would stand up under the scrutiny of a real court! (nice scumbags!, is no evidence)... for you to refer to my analogies, my very real examples as "blahblah" (I'm not talking some bullshit, as "reported" by some media corporation...), shows how fake your empathy is. You're just "heated up" by the media rage!!! you dismiss the ruined lives of two of my friends as "blahblah", abu ghraib - "blahblah", Guantanamo - "blahblah"!!!???
you're so full of double-standards, there's enough for two. Why doesn't one of "you" serve in Iraq, while the other contributes here on esato. That way you could put at least half your life where your mouth is. "nice scumbags", "blahblah"...tss... But, hell, have a good life, why not!!!
Posted by goldenface
The title of the thread says "UK sailors captured at gunpoint" and the evidence I have is a woman paraded live on National TV, scared out of her wits!
What more evidence do I need?
If I wanna call them scumbags I will do! I should be allowed to express my distaste without droning on.
Posted by oneofthose
On 2007-03-29 11:52:09, goldenface wrote:
Here's some more blah for you.
You're saying they have the right to 'investigate' them. Of course they have.
Forcing the poor girl to admit under duress, on national TV, that she was trespassing when she wasn't. Parading her when she is obviously terrified out of her wits...
Great stuff!
Goldenface, what went through your mind when Blair, on behalf of all Britons, offered the 'blood sacrifice' for Bush's war on terror (also known as 'wot?'). Did you think he was just joking? Those 15 have been in custody for a few days... More than 15 british soldiers were killed by friendly us-fire, dead for all days! Your blind rage is exactly what the Bl-ushes of this world want! They don't care about 15.000 dead, but 15 arrested and you echoing their crazed war-cries: just great! You are not even trying to be part of a solution - all kneejerk and hipocracy. A pity
Posted by goldenface
Since when have I ever said Blair and Bush are innocent?
If Iranian captives were paraded on British TV, and forced to speak under duress then I'd be calling the people who made them do it scumbags too.
Posted by maggflodd
yeah, well... what gets me is the constant insinuation that axxr or you or myself, or..., get some kind of heartless kick out of dealing with those lies. As if it was somehow funny to realise that history proves absolutely that we cannot trust or rely on 99 percent of what gets "reported"! if those paid reporters did their jobs without fear for their jobs, without cowardice... we wouldn't even have to have this heated debate - there wouldn't be a war; Blair would be out of a job; Bush would be in Guantanamo or Betty Ford... It's the same with 9/11: you question the official Version, and immediately you get attacked for not caring about the 3000+ dead!!! It's such a twisted double-think mindset!!! and, oh yeah: blahblah... And yeah @oneofthose, were was the big outrage when Blair offered to blood-sacrifice the british youth for Bush and Haliburton? And how could it be in any way doubted that he meant exactly that:"blood-sacrifice"??? And indeed: blahblah
And excisely: goldenface doesn't strike me as someone extremely "rabid" - yet the bigot-media can get him to froth, wipe away the suffering of thousands as "blahblah" instead of wiping away the froth to get a clear view!!! You saw xugaaa's posts... all excited and outraged... and then he posts "they've been released" - including a big smirk... without even double-checking first... what a level of heatedness, what commitment to the truth, what a smirk... But: "blahblah"!!!
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... so what's the problem? You misunderstood me perfectly well...!
[ This Message was edited by: maggflodd on 2007-03-29 12:38 ]
Posted by goldenface
I don't, for one minute, believe everything that is spoon-fed to me by the media and I firmly believe everyone has a right to ask questions and investigate - axxxr does a very good job of that .
I've had many a run-in with people over whether Iran should have nukes or not or whether we have the right to stop nuclear proliferation, I've locked horns with axxxr in the 9/11 thread and I enjoy it; I almost like arguing just for the sake of it.
However, parading that girl on TV isn't a good thing, no matter what the situation is and I defy anyone to say that it is; I shouldn't have to have a discussion on Iran's relationship with the West or Blair-Bush Middle-East policy in order to call them scumbags.
People are implying that I shouldn't speak out against the captive situation unless I also denounce every horror and atrocity of Blair and Bush in the same breath. Well they're wrong! If I want to say its wrong then I will.
They should let them go and thats it!
Posted by maggflodd
Oh, you "almost like arguing for the sake of it"?? Who would've guessed? That's fine - only one problem remains (though I sorta stopped caring a few posts ago...), by referring to them angrily/simplistically as "nice scumbags" you are either
a) de-humanising them to ensure it's o.k. to deal with them in any way "necessary" - it's easier than to think of them as soldiers following THEIR orders, defending THEIR culture, doing THEIR job... it's ok for brits to "do routine recon" because they're human - while iran/-aqis are just scum...
or
b) actually...
it's all good...
_________________
... so what's the problem? You misunderstood me perfectly well...!
[ This Message was edited by: maggflodd on 2007-03-29 13:14 ]
Posted by goldenface
Is that what you think? 
When I referred to them as f*cking scumbags I was referring to the people who held them captive and paraded them, not the Iranian people. God, I would never do that!
I happen to think there is inherent good in most people. Its when people get in power that they do most evil.
Posted by axxxr
On 2007-03-29 12:46:32, oneofthose wrote:
Goldenface, what went through your mind when Blair, on behalf of all Britons, offered the 'blood sacrifice' for Bush's war on terror (also known as 'wot?'). Did you think he was just joking? Those 15 have been in custody for a few days... More than 15 british soldiers were killed by friendly us-fire, dead for all days! Your blind rage is exactly what the Bl-ushes of this world want! They don't care about 15.000 dead, but 15 arrested and you echoing their crazed war-cries: just great! You are not even trying to be part of a solution - all kneejerk and hipocracy. A pity
Thats what troubles me the most, that we hardly ever see any anger against the U.S who have killed British soildiers in the name of friendly fire....yet we are quick to aim our criticisms towards Iran who we have been threating with War and and have imposed economic sanctions on them....your right Hypocracy is the key word here!
Even if the soildiers were in Iraqi waters, who cares we shouldn't even be in Iraq, thats a illegle occupation by us aswell!
Posted by maggflodd
in the spirit of fatreg's contribution yesterday, objectively presenting both sides of the coin: here a third one (funny coin, I know...):
http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=69369
At least a few bits not mentioned elsewhere and certainly not pro-iran...
Posted by goldenface
@axxxr
To Quote from the BBC Website:
"Nobody should be put in that position. It's an impossible position. It's wrong in terms of the UN conventions which govern this, and it's wrong in terms of basic humanity."
You still don't think its wrong?
Like I said before I'm not going to refrain from speaking out just because I haven't criticised blair and bush in the past, even though I do think they have done some terrible deeds.
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[ This Message was edited by: goldenface on 2007-03-29 13:47 ]
Posted by axxxr
You want to talk about U.N conventions? where's the bl**dy United Nations when it comes to "humanity" for the prisoners who are being illegally held at Guantanemo bay?...without Trial and put through systematic torture?...or is that ok for you goldenface because they are just some muslims guys from somewhere?
Not very nice is it when you get given a taste of your own medicine.
at least the Iranians are treating our people with respect!
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[ This Message was edited by: axxxr on 2007-03-29 13:50 ]
Posted by goldenface
Of course its not OK, when have I ever said it was.
I think its an absolute abomination whats happened at Guantanemo Bay but two wrongs don't make a right.
Posted by joebmc
On 2007-03-29 14:46:58, axxxr wrote:
at least the Iranians are treating our people with respect!
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[ This Message was edited by: axxxr on 2007-03-29 13:50 ]
Well...
Anyways whats all this iraq, US stuff about. Forget all that and stick to the facts, iran has illegal taken hostage my fellow men (and woman) and i would like them back home or back doing there job or whatever.
I heard now Iran wants an apology before any releases. An apology for what, them kidnapping people?
Lets hope this dont go the same way it did before when then took others hostage.
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[ This Message was edited by: joebmc on 2007-03-29 13:57 ]
Posted by axxxr
On 2007-03-29 14:52:07, goldenface wrote:
Of course its not OK, when have I ever said it was.
I think its an absolute abomination whats happened at Guantanemo Bay but two wrongs don't make a right.
Your making Iran to be so bad for what its doing.
America is doing 1000X worse in terms of human rights violations, yet Iran is getting blasted for taking a few soildiers capative which they feel broke international territory laws.
Our soildiers will get released when they are done with them, if you have to understand this is politics and Iran is only giving us a taste of our own medicine!
Posted by goldenface
@axxxr
I've admitted Guantanemo Bay was an atrocity and if 9/11 is proven to be a inside job, which is probably was, then that is absolutely digusting and people should be held accountable.
Lets get one thing straight axxxr, any crime against humanity is wrong no matter who the perpetrator is!
Posted by oneofthose
@goldenface, which is it a) concern for your navy buddies b) arguing for argument's sake or c) your love for the good in everyone??? Since apart from your army buddy post not one here contained anything constructive, maybe you can attach icons that indicate a, b or c.,that way we wouldn,t have to reply needlessly.
Posted by axxxr
On 2007-03-29 14:56:44, joebmc wrote:
Well...
Anyways whats all this iraq, US stuff about. Forget all that and stick to the facts, iran has illegal taken hostage my fellow men (and woman) and i would like them back home or back doing there job or whatever.
I heard now Iran wants an apology before any releases. An apology for what, them kidnapping people?
Lets hope this dont go the same way it did before when then took others hostage.
Iraq and and U.S has everything to do with this whole incident so it be can't be dismissed sorry!
And i think an Appology is appropriate in this situation, after all we are the ones telling them how they should run there country and putting sanctions on them.
Maybe we should also be putting more pressure on the facist state of america for illegally Kidnapping 100's of people and putting them in Guantanemo and torturing them.
If we don't mess with Iran they won't mess with us...quite simple!
Posted by axxxr
On 2007-03-29 15:03:33, goldenface wrote:
@axxxr
I've admitted Guantanemo Bay was an atrocity and if 9/11 is proven to be a inside job, which is probably was, then that is absolutely digusting and people should be held accountable.
Lets get one thing straight axxxr, any crime against humanity is wrong no matter who the perpetrator is!
Thats the first time i've ever heard you say that \"9/11 was probably an inside Job\" ..i never thought i would ever hear that from you, but better late than never!...knowledge is power! ...so does mean you will be joining the Truth Movement?
On 2007-03-29 15:03:33, goldenface wrote:
Lets get one thing straight axxxr, any crime against humanity is wrong no matter who the perpetrator is!
Thank you!
Posted by goldenface
@axxxr
I haven't got your energy and I think there is enough evidence out there already.
I'll have to catch up in the 9/11 thread. 
Posted by Xugaa
On 2007-03-29 14:46:58, axxxr wrote:
At least the Iranians are treating our people with respect!
o_O
Anyway, this is the evidence btw for those that haven't seen it yet, easily proves that we were not in Iranian waters and that in fact the Iranians entered Iraqi waters to capture the British crew. And whoever said that this wouldn't stand up in court...?! But then no way are the Iranians going to listen to a court, they knew what they were doing and it was all to try and spread propaganda, shame they're failing... --_--
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/6502805.stm
Posted by oneofthose
On 2007-03-29 17:56:34, Xugaa wrote:
On 2007-03-29 14:46:58, axxxr wrote:
At least the Iranians are treating our people with respect!
o_O
Anyway, this is the evidence btw for those that haven't seen it yet, easily proves that we were not in Iranian waters and that in fact the Iranians entered Iraqi waters to capture the British crew. And whoever said that this wouldn't stand up in court...?! But then no way are the Iranians going to listen to a court, they knew what they were doing and it was all to try and spread propaganda, shame they're failing... --_--
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/6502805.stm
'easily proves',... Axxxr, now I believe g-face - and the sheik did the towers with one of Saddams lawnmower-drones! Gore lost 2000, and slavery was just a rumour - revenge even. Thanks g-force, where can I post my law degree?
Posted by fatreg
boys and girls.
take a break.
we all know that people have differing opinons on things.....
it's life. get over it, some people don't agree with the Iranians and some people do and you ain't gonna get the ones that don't agree to agree and vica versa...
and while i see your "discussing" the situation i can't help but feel it's gotten way off the original subject. whats happening in Iran has noting whatsoever to do with Guanatamo Bay and 9/11......
please drop the whole 9/11 thing... it's getting VERY long in the tooth.
*my 2p added*
fatreg
Posted by Xugaa
^ Agreed!
Posted by axxxr
I think this piece from last weeks Question time might interest some people here, Tony Benn and and an Iraqi woman slaughter the former U.S ambassador to the U.N John Bolton.....(John Bolton is a really ugly piece of Bush's administration) WATCH
Posted by fatreg
On 2007-03-29 19:12:05, axxxr wrote:
I think this piece from last weeks Question time might interest some people here, Tony Benn and and an Iraqi woman slaughter the former U.S ambassador to the U.N John Bolton.....(John Bolton is a really ugly piece of Bush's administration)
WATCH
and that relates to 15 UK soldiers getting captured at gunpoint in (Iraqi/Iranian) waters how?
Posted by axxxr
America invaded Iraq after they orchestrated 9/11, we followed like a hungry puppy!
Afghanistan invaded because of 9/11
Prisoners sent to Guantanemo Bay because of the War on Terror.
America threatning Iran and imposed sanction!
9/11/Afghanistan/Iraq/Iran ......Iran capturing our soildiers!
All this connected?...Damn right it is!
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[ This Message was edited by: axxxr on 2007-03-29 18:25 ]
Posted by maggflodd
On 2007-03-29 19:01:43, fatreg wrote:
boys and girls.
take a break.
we all know that people have differing opinons on things.....
it's life. get over it, some people don't agree with the Iranians and some people do and you ain't gonna get the ones that don't agree to agree and vica versa...
and while i see your "discussing" the situation i can't help but feel it's gotten way off the original subject. whats happening in Iran has noting whatsoever to do with Guanatamo Bay and 9/11......
please drop the whole 9/11 thing... it's getting VERY long in the tooth.
*my 2p added*
fatreg
apart from the "that's life" bit I shall second this... Or maybe I just need a rest! Wait for some "breaking" news - this time maybe not breaking with reality... Will see...
Posted by oneofthose
Is sanity one of the hostages: http://commentisfree.guardian[....]anity_is_the_real_hostage.html ???
Posted by Xugaa
"And yes, the US is holding five Iranians with diplomatic status in Iraq - against the protests of the allegedly sovereign Iraqi government - but all attention is focussed on the fifteen British prisoners. Even if they had been across the boundary, the clever thing to do would have been a showy protest and repatriation, rather than threatening charges against them."
As said on Question Time tonight, the Iranians being held by the US is a completely different and separate situation and to use that as an excuse to illegally capture fifteen people working under UN requirement is absolutely rediculous. For a start the US has just reason to be holding the Iranian prisoners, Iran have no reason but propaganda and in search trouble holding ours and parading Faye Turney on national tv because of 'her' sinful position within our forces. Also, threatening charges towards Iran, ha! More like the other way around, trying to frame and commit them for something that they know full well they didn't do.
No offence 'oneofthose' but upon skimming that article I really don't agree with a lot of what is being said, I have no sympathy for Iran and not do they deserve any. Although I'm sure my friend Axxxr would disagree...
[ This Message was edited by: Xugaa on 2007-03-30 00:29 ]
Posted by maggflodd
@xugaa - I for one am not "debating" this until there's more than speculation - in his way fatreg's probably right... you can not have debate where participants want to play with different rules! By the time we find out what reallyreally happened this forum will be the phizer-ericsson forum... For now, one side refuses to consider the wider context, even though there's nothing else really known/knowable... no, it's 8ritons, who cares about the context!!! So the other side gets bogged down in reminding folks that nothing happens out of context including that context and so on... And I'm sure you or goldenface have an explanation also for why this debate got excitingly boring yesterday! So there... That article is just make-believe "sanity" - no different, NO different from the guardian or Indo pretending they don't really watch BB - "we're just reporting on the hype"... A war, BB, j-lo's ass: all the same... Well, so have a good w/end, xugaa
Posted by fatreg
On 2007-03-30 07:59:09, maggflodd wrote:
phizer-ericsson
the phone with instant satisfaction!
fatreg
Posted by oneofthose
@maggflodd, well spotted. I posted that as a slightly ironic acknowledgement of/comment on fatreg's call for calm! Difference being: fatreg was mostly right,the guardian was trying to appear reasonable...
Posted by fatreg
I was merely asking people here to calm down as its quite apparant that tempers are getting frayed!
Fatreg
Posted by maggflodd
On 2007-03-30 08:48:00, fatreg wrote:
I was merely asking people here to calm down as its quite apparant that tempers are getting frayed!
Fatreg
and you were right!
Posted by oneofthose
Maybe not right but rightish what's that other word for 'frayed'? Ah yeah, 'threadbare'! nice weekend!
Posted by masseur
lets get a bit more back on the actual topic now please
Iran airs second sailor 'apology'
Posted by maggflodd
Hmmm... Don't know, have to watch it again when I'm less busy. For now I don't wanna venture a "doesn't look too disstressed" though I just did... You know maybe what I mean... It's been a while since I attended psych-lectures, but his reactions to the off-camera prompts appear perfectly "natural" - I'm not saying it's nice, or that they didn't use some form of "carrot and stick" but if he came out later saying, we were tortured, I'd be "surprised"... oops - Maybe, just maybe, the initial fear on their faces had something to do with reverse psychology: as soldiers in that area, as Brits they are fully aware of what's going on in guantanamo, and how the west's war on terror are perceived in wide circles, not only in Iran... they also know of course, that US AND BRITISH forces are not always "that nice" to prisoners... So, maybe the fear expressed earlier had more to do with expecting some of "their own medicine" (to put it tastelessly), and of course with expecting revenge....not necessarily the same!!!
But as I said: didn't have a chance to watch it closely!!!
Posted by joebmc
The poor guy apologised for entering there waters 3 times! And each time to me it looked like he was being told to by the guy off camera. Well that’s how it looked to me.
Posted by Xugaa
What I'm trying to work out is if this whole game Iran is playing is just simply a propaganda war or if there is something else behind it all...?
Posted by fatreg
i'd like to think there just playing games but im not 100%... the are telling the sailors what to say and those letters are not from the girl not by a long way, if they are she needs to be shot.
when you are fighting a war for your country you do not ask for it to stop, you stop when the problems have been sorted or a side folds..
the thing that i'm concerned about is the fact that trespassing without concent in Iran carries a death sentence... so confessing to it on TV is not the best thing it the world to do. He also being a Royal Marine would not be sorry for anything, you have to be a certain type of person to be a Marine a type that would not fold and apologise after 7 days.
i feel there is something behind all this, now this is speculation and holds no weight at all but it's my view..
I feel the Iranians have taken the 15 personnel as a kind of bait if you will and the only way to get the released is for the UK and US to pull out of Iraq, I don't feel those 3 letters are from Faye and while i can't argue with what the video states, you can tell by his manner and body language he is being told what to say. I can only deduce from this that the Iranians have promised nothing will happen to them if the UK and US withdraw from Iraq.
I don't know what we can do about it though, if we threaten Iran with military action we are kind of shooting ourselves in the foot, the Iranians army is 3x the size of ours and we know then possess nuclear energy......
If we and the US pull out of Iraq, the insurgence have "won" and it belittles both the UK and US, so that's not going to happen.
as i've said my only real concern is that trespassing in Iran carries a life sentence.....
as i've also said, the above are all my own thoughts, they carry no weight and they derive from nowhere other than my head.
also.. i like however they been captured a week ago yet there still in uniform?
fatreg
Posted by Xugaa
Oh yes, the letters were definately not from her or her collegues 100%, on the news they were stating how they were even addressed to the wrong people, a mistake that she and the other sailors wouldn't have made.
I personally feel that there are three things to all this...
Propaganda to Iran's people and the Middle East as a whole
As you said Fatreg, bait to try and convince us to leave Iraq
And finally to basically try and wind us up
This is why whatever our next action is, we have to do it very carefully and consider every possibly consequence. Fortunately we are supported on this situation by many powers around the globe, so at least we can say we're not alone on this.
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