Posted by Mike.P®
Just before Christmas I did a trade with Topscooby for his Nokia 8800 Special Edition. I have left it in the box since as I was only going to use it for special occasions but someone made me an offer for it so I decided to sell it on. When I got the phone out of the box the other day I found out that the phone has been blocked. On contacting Topscooby his basic reaction is that he bought the phone off ebay and so he should not be responsible for refunding me the value of the phone because in doing so he will be buying a handset that is involved in insurance fraud.????
I am still the registered owner of the W950i that was used as part exchange so am seriously thinking that as the 8800 was blocked and is basically useless I am in my rights to block the W950i as it has, in effect been taken from me under false pretences.
Any input would be appreciated from other sellers/buyers.
This is turning out to be a cracking week ...
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[ This Message was edited by: Mike.P® on 2007-02-23 16:48 ]
Posted by Gazza_1989
sorry to hear about your misfortune ova the week mike.p!
Hmm can you not just trade back, and get your w950i back?
Posted by scottt
To be honest i dont think it is Topscoobs responsibilty to make you a refund as he did'nt know it was blocked and really its got nothing to do with him....
When he sold the phone did he offer a personal warrenty? In where the phone did get blocked or broken he would give you a refund? I think not, yeah i would be pretty damn peeved if it happened to me granted but thats what you get on these buying/selling forums, i have come to accept that they have flaws and you have to take it with a pinch of salt...
I have see Topscooby also has made a thread about it and knowing him he will sort something out for you as he is a top bloke and a personal mate of mine off here
Good Luck anyway, i dont think taking personal revenge in blocking the W950i is really called for as like i said aint his fault....
Posted by Mike.P®
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To be honest had it been a k750i or something then I would have just put up with it but a £200+ phone is just a little bit hard to swallow.
All I am looking for here is maybe even a "contribution" towards the cost .. as you say you take a bit of risk when dealing phones and I have had my fair share of blocked phones from Ebay but I have always done what I consider is right and refunded the person I sold it to and taken the loss myself.
We shall see if he "does something right" but to me it seems that he is basically washing his hands of the situation.
At the end of the day it was him I did the deal with, it was his phone that was therefore blocked and so it should be him that sorts.
Friend or no friend.
Posted by mutleyboy
quite a while ago, probably over a year back, i sold a p910i i had bought off someone on here.
it was duly traded on here a few more times until it got to its final owner.
It then got blacklisted, and the way we all solved it was each person who had traded or sold the phone reimbursed the person they had passed it on to, until it got back to the original person i traded the phone off. He then managed to get it sorted in the end where he had bought it from.
In my opinion this is the way it should be done. Each person who made a trade/sale should be responsible for reimbursing the person they passed the phone onto.
So in this instance i think topscooby should reimburse mike, and then go about getting his money back(probably aint gonna happen if a dodgy ebayer)from who he bought it from, mike isnt the person who bought it from ebay and then it became blocked, so it isnt upto him to sort that out
Posted by Mike.P®
Thanks for that mutleyboy, its not as though I can even go to the original Ebay seller as the sale had nothing to do with me in the first place.
Posted by jcwhite_uk
I personally think that as the person he traded you the phone Topscooby has some (not necesaraly full) responsiblity to at least help you sort the problem. In theory you have received stolen goods and so has topscooby.
Posted by Sammy_boy
Sorry to hear you've had problems again Mike - you've had some extraordinarily bad luck with a few trades here
I think if I was the person who had traded you the phone I would offer a partial refund, and would be getting in contact with whomsoever I bought the phone off. If that 'Powerseller' is the original owner, or knows them, they may be able to do something about the blacklist.
It rarely happens but the phone can be unblocked (legally!) I once bought an 8310 to fix, and when I'd fixed it it was blocked. I emailed the seller about getting it unblocked, he said he'd try to sort something out. I kept trying the phone for a couple of weeks afterwards and it never got unblocked. About a month later, I decided to sell the phone as blocked and for parts only - turned the phone on just to see if all else was OK... and it got a signal and worked fine! I think only the original owner could get it unblocked, and it I imagine depends on the curcumstances surronding the blacklist.
Posted by PeterKay
Don't block the W950i, cos i bought that off him!!!
Posted by govigov
Posted by PeterKay
It's not funny!!
I'm the one stuck in the middle of this fiasco.
Posted by jcwhite_uk
I would also say not to block the W950i partially becos of PK but also because you are then making a false statement to the Police (you have to report it stolen for it to get blocked as far as I know) which is an arrestable offence.
Posted by 6230
Post this in non mobiles section tbh...
Hope it goes well for ya
Posted by Mike.P®
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oooerrr .. that a bit of a bugger .. but then should I worry about that as it seems Topscooby has no problem with how he has treated me.
All I am asking is, if anyone here was in the same situation would they be happy to take the loss or would you kick up a fuss.
I think you all know the answer to that one.
Posted by fatreg
i reckon you got to think laterally...
my PM is a way to solve it.
fatreg
Posted by Mike.P®
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But if I did as you suggest then by Topscoobys own PM that he sent me I would be partaking in an insurance fraud and would therefore be breaking the law by selling it on.
I couldn't have that on my conscience.
I could infact sell this to anyone on the forum and then just walk away from it saying its not my problem, the phone is part of an insurance scam and you will have to take it to the police .. who will probably take the phone away from you and you will be left with nothing at all.
I think thats just about how the PM from Topscooby went anyway.
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[ This Message was edited by: Mike.P® on 2007-02-15 19:30 ]
Posted by liverman666
I don`t buy for one minute that Topscooby bought this phone off Ebay and didn`t even turn it on to check that it was working OK?
Sounds VERY far fetched to me,unless you are a complete idiot.
The phone should have been checked for being blocked before it was even advertised on here by Topscooby,as when he places the advert on here he assumes responsibility for that phones condition/operation.
At the end of the day,sounds like it`s Topscooby that`s been stitched up,and Mike shouldn`t have to bare the brunt of it.
Just my thoughts.....................
Good luck Mike.
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Many References available.
[ This Message was edited by: liverman666 on 2007-02-15 20:06 ]
Posted by scottt
Where did it say he did'nt turn it on? He did as he was using it for a while???
Posted by Mike.P®
Cheers for that but I must say in Topscoobys defense that when he sent it the phone was working.
Normally how it works is that the seller on Ebay will wait until 6 weeks is up so that the buyer can no longer file a dispute to reclaim their money.
In that time the buyer has also usually left feedback as well so the seller is totally bulletproof in every respect unless the original buyer goes to the Police.
Posted by dougproctor
Just to chuck in my two pennies worth. If Mike had bought it on Ebay using Paypal, he could have claimed for an item not as described and done a chargeback. Why is it Mike's fault, as the buyer, that the phone has been blocked? It is not the person who sold it to him but the guy on Ebay who probably sold it knowing it was going to be blocked.
He ought to be refunded the amount of its worth surely? Just give his seller a chance to sort it out.
Posted by liverman666
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Ahhh,right. Now I see! Been barred SINCE you`ve had it?
Posted by Dogmann
Hi Mike,
I have already answered this once in Topscoobys thread but will repeat my answer here.
Hi Topscooby
I would contact the seller and ask what has happened as if this is what has happened and this is the case he is guilty of committing insurance fraud and both the insurance company and the Police will prosecute him.
Marc
Whilst this is of little comfort to you at the moment Mike IMHO Topscooby has at the very least a moral obligation to help you sort out this matter and as he has the contact with the E-Bay seller only he can help resolve the matter. But someone here is guilty of insurance fraud and the last time i was in a Police station to report an incident there were large notices warning reporting a phone stolen that wasn't was a criminal offence and would be prosecuted.
I wish i had a simpler solution for you but i really don't think there is one and as already pointed out reporting the W950i stolen when you have sold it and have been paid for it would leave you open to prosecution and IMO is not the right thing to do especially as this now also has been traded to an innocent 3rd party.
Now if TopScooby does nothing to help resolve the issue that is completely different and you would be within your rights IMO to both publicise this fact and take whatever action you felt appropriate including if necessary issuing a County Court Summons which is both inexpensive and simple to do but hopefully it will no come to that.
Marc
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Nokia Black N93,2gb SanDisk MiniSD & TomTom6,AD-46,Sony MDR-EX71SL.Nokia 8800 Special Edition
[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2007-02-15 23:14 ]
Posted by Mike.P®
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I had actually given that idea some thought myself to be honest and have already been looking into it tonight on the net.
I still have all the original PMs and bank receipt for the money I paid him as part of the trade plus delivery details and even the Special delivery slip.
Thanks for your input.
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[ This Message was edited by: Mike.P® on 2007-02-15 20:44 ]
Posted by Topscooby
I have read with interest all the comments that have been posted on here regarding this matter.
I am about to leave home to start my nightshift so i can't take the time to reply to them now.
However, i will post up the full situation report about this phone tomorrow when i come home for anybody who is interested in the 'other' side of the story.
Thank you.
Posted by Mike.P®
personally I would like to read this other side of the story because as far as I am concerned that is exactly what has been said and I have it all in your PM's.
Posted by PeterKay
Hope you guys sort this out as i am the man in the middle, Topscooby does work some heavy hours and i'm sure MikeP he will sort this out with you. Dealt with Scoobs many times and never had a problem.
Posted by 6230
On 2007-02-15 21:10:08, Mike.P® wrote:
Cheers for that but I must say in Topscoobys defense that when he sent it the phone was working.
So if it was working when you got it why blame him?
Posted by themarques
http://www.esato.com/board/viewtopic.php?topic=141795
What do u guys think of this for future purchases?
Posted by Mamber
@themarques
Great minds etc.........
We may as well join this discussion together then, as I posted this much earlier!
http://www.esato.com/board/viewtopic.php?topic=141675
.
[ This Message was edited by: Mamber on 2007-02-16 00:39 ]
Posted by Adi23
Some of you people must be MAD.
Anyone who sells someone a blocked phone intentionally or not is at fault and needs to provide a refund immediately. Buying a blocked phone is the same as buying a non-functional therefore the item was not as described.
Posted by Mike.P®
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So if I sold you a phone and it was working, then 2 months later it got blocked you would be ok with that would you because it was fine when it arrived?
Great .. fancy doing a trade?
sheesh.
Posted by luigithfc
if nothing gets sorted with that nokia 8800, give me a shout.
Posted by Mamber
@Adi23
......also you did not read my comments on the following?
http://www.esato.com/board/viewtopic.php?topic=141675
Posted by J-J
Having read both threads on this the only way that i can see it being resolved fairly is for TopScooby to refund Mike and then TopScooby to go back to the ebay Power Seller he bought it from and explain the situation and inform him that if it cannot be resolved that he will involve the police.
I cannot see any reason why Mike should be left out of pocket for this as it was in no way shape or form his fault and IMO the responsability lies solely with TopScooby
Posted by andrewkeith5
sorry if this has already been said, but:
It it whoever sold, traded, or passed on the device that is responsible for it. By passing on a device as blacklisted, whether knowingly or not, he is breaking the law, and if necessary you can go to the police to recover funds for it (don't know if you want to).
In a technical world, the W950 (was it that) has been stolen, as it has been traded, with cash, for an extra device. Technically, now that you knowingly have a blacklisted device you are obliged to take it to your local police station and obtain an incident number which you can use for future reference.
Heck, if the phones been in an insurance scam, the insurers might refund you themselves (provided you can prove that you recieved the device in exchange for another device and/or monetary transfer). You'll wanna be careful about that though as they can very easily just blame you for nicking it (ah, and scooby would probably have to prove it wasnt his fault too, so be careful, I dont want fellow forum members in trouble just because of my post :S ).
Thats how I understand it anyway...
Posted by Mamber
@andrewkeith5
....so if I quote YOUR IMEI number by accident to the provider because I have lost MY phone, WHO is responsible then?
Read the threads and you will see with only one digit out, ANY handset can become barred. Worrying isn't it?
For example your handsets IMEI is 123456789012345 and I quote by accident [because my eyes are bad for example], 123456789812345 who is responsible??
You have not got a clue where I'm from or who I am?
Can you see my point?
Believe me this does and has happened, as it's happened to me several times.
By the way it's a Nokia 8800 we are talking about!!
Posted by Mike.P®
I was under the impression that to block a phone you had to quote more than an IMEI number, giving some personal information already on the phone which the company could access by sending a signal to the handset .. then again I may be wrong as I have never had cause to do it.
Posted by masseur
when my son had a handset nicked at school I called vodafone to get it barred and they checked on their system that the imei I quoted had been used on my account with the sim card that was used for his mobile phone number
I would expect this cross reference/check to be a standard requirement to prevent such accidents or malicious barring of other peoples phones
Posted by Mamber
Well as mentioned it's happened to me on more than one occasion.
I have also had a phone barred in another country as the buyer did not pay, those of you that use other forums will remember the situation with 'bcool' perhaps?
There was NO record of me owning the phone, so nothing for them to cross reference!
Perhaps this phone may have been barred by the provider because the contract did not finish, as mentioned also in the other thread?
I'm on your side I hasten to add Mike, as any situation like this is hassle.
@masseur
Was the handset on PAYG or Contract or had it been on contract? Think about it, if you buy a PAYG package from say Woolworth who knows who it's registered to? I bet not many people log it to the provider when first purchased?
[ This Message was edited by: Mamber on 2007-02-16 10:56 ]
Posted by masseur
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it was a contract phone
but if you are trying to bar a payg you are going to need to know the imei and the phone number and the chances of someone else knowing that is very remote but as I have not barred a payg phone I don't have any real knowledge of how that works in practice
Posted by Mamber
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No!
You only need the IMEI number to barr a phone, and if you have a phone number they may ask you that.
Would be interesting to hear from a large dealer how they go about registering ALL of their phones, against a provider in case they have to barr.
[ This Message was edited by: Mamber on 2007-02-16 11:38 ]
Posted by andrewkeith5
it seems that your very unlucky then mamber, as what the networks should do is ensure that the phone number AND SIM NUMBER have been used with the devices IMEI within the last (i think) 6 months.
If not then they have to cross-refernce it with other details like the registered name on the sim card
they use the imei/sim number combination to track the device when it is reported stolen - as this IS kept by retailers who HAVE to pass the details to the manufacturer. Some retailers can also use credit or debit card details for the person who bought the phone to ensure that they are reported correctly
Even if the phone is bought with cash and the sim not registered, the police will still know which sim was bought with which phone - the only time this does not work is when phones are sold sim free, in which case they can be tracked anyway as the SIM number (not the phone number) and the IMEI are stored whenever the phone connects itself to the network.
Posted by masseur
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so you're suggesting that you can call up your phone company and give them any old IMEI and they will bar it?
I'd be very surprised and worried if that was the case, and it certainly wasn't in my example. I'm not able to find any official document that describes the procedure to get a phone barred, I keep coming up with just the MOBILE TELEPHONES (RE-PROGRAMMING) ACT 2002
anyway, how it gets barred is a bit off topic for this thread, this is more about the repercussions of the actual event described and how that can be resolved
Posted by solidsingh
you need to be original owner to bar the phone, you need proof of purchase also
Posted by Mamber
@solidsingh
Are you saying the provider can do this then, if the contract has not come to an end as I stated earlier?? We know this happens a lot, as they are the original owner.
@masseur
Yes you are correct it is WAY of topic, I will start another thread in the 'General' thread as I have another good debate about who owns a phone.
Sorry Mike, but good luck with your quest.
Posted by tmagberry
I know this is nothing to do with car, but surely the principles are the same?
Here
Posted by T68iKING
Mike.P deserves his full money back (or value of trade) - simple as, no excuses.
The only fair/generous stance for Topscooby is to allow him a week from today to solve the matter with the "ebay seller". As this is meant to be a friendly forum and everyone takes trust for granted, this is the only sympathetic approach towards Topscooby, that i see anyway.
Its true what Mike.P is saying in how would we react; i know i wouldnt take this lightly, or allow so much time to pass (though you did state you boxed the phone for a while) without resolving the situation one way or another, especially when a £200+ headset is involved.
Hope this gets settled peacefully and quickly, and doesnt put off Mike.P from dealing on these forums again, or deter other new members from using Esato
Posted by solidsingh
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the provider can block the phone if you stop paying the bill yes, but i was talking about PAYG phones.
@t68i king
yes mike p does deserve a refund but under the eyes of the law, hes not entitled to a penny which is really stupid but thats just the way it is im afraid
Posted by Topscooby
As Mike has decided to open a thread about this phone in an open forum, for you all to read and comment on, i feel it only fair to post my side of the story.
I have been traded a blocked phone....my response!
As Mike outlined at the very beginning of this thread i entered into a trade with him which consisted of me selling a W810i and the Nokia 8800 to him in exchange for a W950i plus cash.
I originally purchased the 8800 via a BIN auction on ebay which was offered by a powerseller. The phone was described as brand new boxed and unmarked. This was at the beginning of november last year. When the phone arrived it had a couple of small scratches on the front case. I contacted the seller to ask for an explaination regarding the scratches on a phone he described as both brand new and unmarked. His reply, in a nutshell, was tough luck if you don't like it sell it to somebody else! I immediately contacted ebay and opened a dispute with them (via Paypal) about the condition i had received the phone in. In the end they found the case in the sellers favour as no proof existed as to whether or not the damage existed before i received it...wonderfull!
As i had planned to give the phone to my wife as a Christmas present i decided to sell it instead as i did'nt want to give it to her in that condition.
I advertised the phone for sale on this forum including in the description that it was marked. When Mike and i agreed our sale/trade i sent him the phone as well as the W810i. On receiving the phone Mike found a dent on the rear of the case that i had'nt even noticed myself. However, we were able to come to an amicable solution to resolve this problem. This was before Christmas last year.
When i sent Mike the phone it was in perfect working order and i had personally used it on three different networks (Orange, O2 and Voda).
Other than the additional damage that Mike found with the phone there was no mention of any other problem with the phone. And this is how it remained until earlier this week when i received a pm from Mike to say the phone had been barred as he could not use any of his sims in it.
I replyed to Mikes pm saying i was sorry to hear about the phone being barred and that i would do everything i could to resolve the situation. This included me trying to contact the person who had sold me the phone to try and find out why it was now barred. To this day all my messages and emails to him have been ignored! I also posted a thread on this forum asking if there was any other reason why a phone would suddenly become blocked other than it being reported as lost/stolen. It soon became clear that this was indeed the most obvious reason for it being blocked.
I sent Mike another pm to explain that as the phone was now more than likely subject to criminal activity that it would have to be reported to the police. It was at this stage that Mike explained that he had been in this situation before and suggested that i refund him his money and then to contact the person who sold me the phone on ebay to inform them that i would report them to the police for making a false insurance claim. He also added that he then normally accepted a 50% refund from the ebay seller and then made the rest of the money up by breaking the phone down and selling it for parts.
This did not seem a reasonable course of action for me to take as i had no proof that the person who sold me the phone was guilty of anything and that it could be the person who sold him the phone that could be responsible. It was at this stage that i sought legal advice.
It was as a result of this advice that i again pm'd Mike to confirm that it was nessasary to contact the police and make a complaint as this obviously needed to be investigated via the propper channels and by the correct authorities (i.e. the police). There was no way that i was going to try and agree any form of arrangement with the seller of the phone to me until it was established just who had committed a crime. I tried to reitterate with Mike, again by pm, that this was now a matter for the police to deal with and not either of us. I also explained that if the phone had indeed been repoted as either lost/stolen and a payment had been made by an insurance company then the rightful owner of the phone was now the insurance company and not Mike. This being the case we would both have been breaking the law if we had tried to dispose of the phone to anyone other than the police as they would need it as evidence to bring a prosecution.
It was at this stage that i assured Mike that i would be only too willing to give a full statement to the police on how, when, where and who i purchased the phone from including paper printouts from both ebay and Paypal. I acknowledged that it was him who was 'out of pocket' at this stage but that it was essential that we let the police handle the matter. I also assured Mike that if, as a result of any conviction of the person reponsible for the fraud, that i received any money back then i would, of course, refund him all his money.
Unfortunately Mike does not seem keen on using the correct method of seeing that the actual villain is caught and punished and is only concerned with me giving him his money back and thats all. He stated in one of his pm's to me that "it was'nt his problem" and that as he bought the phone from me he considered it my duty to make good over what someone else had done.
As i said to Mike, i will not accept either responsibillity or accountability for someone elses criminal actions. It is up to the police, the crown prosecution service and the courts to determine the outcome of this crime and not us. After all, that is what they are paid to do by us from our taxes...like it or not.
The whole problem of phones being sold and then blocked at a later date is getting out of hand and it is up to us to ensure that all criminal activity is reported to the police for the correct investigation. All the time we try and sideshift the problem to someone else or to make deals with the crooks then it will forever be OUR problem and the villians will laugh at US as they go and spend OUR hard earned cash!
I have told Mike he has my full support and cooperation regarding this matter but only if we approach it the correct way. And that correct way is called 'due process'. It is not the fastest process, but it is the correct one.
What really worries me is Mikes suggestion that he has considered getting the W950i i traded with him blocked! Is'nt this the exact problem that he has started this thread over? Would'nt it be ironic if the person who has got the 8800 blocked has done so because of a deal that did not go all their way???
I find it unbelieavable that a trusted trader on here could even consider such an action. How could anyone in the future trade with someone who has shown that they are willing to get phones blocked and, therefore, break the law themselves to the cost of innocent forum members!!!
Even after all this i will support Mike if he chooses to go to the police and still offer my help with a full statement of all the details...as it is the right thing to do.
I appologise for writing such a long reply and using up so much bandwidth!
I do not, however, appologise for wanting to take the correct route in seeing the criminal(s) behind all this bought to justice.
I thank you all for your time.
Topscooby.
Posted by lamont
HI,
i know this is not a good way to solve the problem but i think the phone will only be barred in the UK and you will be able to sell it on a european/ USA ebay site and get good money for it.
I know this not a good solution but i thought i would let you know.